Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On 01/06/2011 12:50 AM, Patrick Ouellette wrote: Zeroth rule of support - never trust your user's to tell you the entire story (corollary - people lie about what happened) First rule of support - before deleting *anything* make a backup copy yourself Ding Ding Ding, I usually use dd or ntfsimage to do a full backup that I leave on my personal file server for a while before I touch anything. Now they're so cheap I often just replace the HDD and leave the old one in a cupboard for backup, it's saved my my clients / friends / relatives bacon a couple of times. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4d2d27c2.3060...@homeurl.co.uk
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
An operating system should have reliable backup policies built-in; for example, it should backup the entire /home subtree to rewritable DVDs, or a network share, on a weekly basis. When installing the system, the user should be asked where to and how often the backups should be made, just as (s)he is asked for the time zone and the language to be used. Without this info, the installation should simply refuse to go on. --- And where do these magical DVD-Rs to write to come from? How many users rush past automated security and warning protocols before acquiring viruses and malware... Simply put, make something idiot proof, they will make a bigger better idiot. You can't protect and shelter people from the big bad world forever. And yes, I do most of my major car repairs, no I'm not a mechanic. I can cook, clean, and sew, and I'm not a woman. I constantly study survival techniques and look to become proficient at procuring my own food. There is NO excuse for spending countless hours in front of the idiot box and being completely unaware of even the basic functionalities of the things in our world. TeddyB
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
The client who wouldn't back up because she didn't want to spend any money, found herself faced with a dead motherboard. She expected me to have a new computer up and running with all her data on it within a few hours. (Note that diagnosis was also to be included in the short timespan, as was procurement.) It actually took me many hours to recover the data, which I did successfully. Far from being grateful, she made my life a misery for taking too long. Had it been her hard drive that was dead, she might well have lost the data. Lisi For that kind of people I charge 30% more, that’s tax for my nerves. Most of them come to conclusion that I'm to expensive and stop calling me. Maybe it's not ideal to lose customers but it is beter that than losing nerves and self respect. -- Bye, Goran Dobosevic Hrvatski: www.dobosevic.com English: www.dobosevic.com/en/ Registered Linux User #503414 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4d26fa96.3060...@dobosevic.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Vi, 07 ian 11, 09:58:58, teddi...@tmo.blackberry.net wrote: And yes, I do most of my major car repairs, no I'm not a mechanic. I can cook, clean, and sew, and I'm not a woman. I constantly study survival techniques and look to become proficient at procuring my own food. Unfortunately my car is quite complex and most systems are controlled and/or monitored by a computer. As much as I'd like to poke at it, I would need the special hardware interface and the software, which AFAIK is Windows only and not something that I'd try in wine... I am planing to buy a motorbike though, that should be easier to fiddle with ;) Regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Wednesday 05 January 2011 16:50:45 Patrick Ouellette wrote: Zeroth rule of support - never trust your user's to tell you the entire story (corollary - people lie about what happened) First rule of support - before deleting *anything* make a backup copy yourself Yes - but if it is no longer possible one can't, especially when the client puts obstacles in the way. Many clients think that computers are magic and that the supporting person has a magic wand. The client who wouldn't back up because she didn't want to spend any money, found herself faced with a dead motherboard. She expected me to have a new computer up and running with all her data on it within a few hours. (Note that diagnosis was also to be included in the short timespan, as was procurement.) It actually took me many hours to recover the data, which I did successfully. Far from being grateful, she made my life a misery for taking too long. Had it been her hard drive that was dead, she might well have lost the data. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201101061147.00735.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 20:26:37 +, Lisi wrote: On Tuesday 04 January 2011 16:56:58 Camaleón wrote: One day she messed up her registry to the point where reinstallation was essential. She assured me when asked that her precious 'photos were all fine and she had off-computer copies of all of them. When, after the event, it became obvious that a small percentage of the photos was missing, she asked me to install Picasa because that is where those 'photos are. Re-ouch! The missing photos were stored online? At least she had a happy ending... this time. No, she didn't. Ugh... She thought that because she had used the program Picasa, then Picasa would magically produce her 'photos. She did not have them online. There was only the one copy on her computer. She just usually viewed them with Picasa. I did paid support. I had to support no matter how daft the client insisted on being. And no, she didn't learn. She just sacked me!! I had explained in words of one syllable till I was blue in the face, and her niece bought her a pen drive and backed all the then current pictures up. She also explained in words of one syllable. That is why my client thought that she had copies of everything. My niece did it for me. She hadn't understood that a backup cannot magically add other things to itself without even being plugged into the computer. At least you should have learned one lesson: _never trust_ what your users say and tell them to _prove_ their wording with facts (that is, by checking with her that the data was properly backed up and can be restored from the aforementioned unexistent copy) ;-) Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2011.01.05.12.03...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 13:09, Camaleón noela...@gmail.com wrote: Last backup was from a year ago, that should give you some hints about how valuable is data for the user. That is a hint about whether the computer is a tool or a lifestyle for the user, it has nothing to do with the value of the data. I only wish that the backup-valuable correlation were true! NTFS is quite robust. In fact, it survives better to unforeseen shutdowns than other linux filesystems. And again, if you are concerned about the fragile status of the file system, run the diagnosis tools in test mode. Against power outages, yes, NTFS is very robust. But there are other ways to screw it up easily, one of which is simply _writing_ to it with an immature driver. I understand that today's Linux drivers are better in this regard, but just a few years ago one would not want to write often to an NTFS partition without booting it into Windows occasionally for some error checking. The drivers are reverse engineered and are not 100% reliable, or at least until recently they weren't. By the way, NTFS does not support some features of Linux filesystems, and will fail silently while loosing data. Writing a filename with a colon is one good example of how to get bitten by this. Permissions are sometimes problematic as well. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktin5z2frnfkgy0y92ps_iayffdauqpqncvj87...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
No, she didn't. She thought that because she had used the program Picasa, then Picasa would magically produce her 'photos. She did not have them online. There was only the one copy on her computer. She just usually viewed them with Picasa. I did paid support. I had to support no matter how daft the client insisted on being. And no, she didn't learn. She just sacked me!! I had explained in words of one syllable till I was blue in the face, and her niece bought her a pen drive and backed all the then current pictures up. She also explained in words of one syllable. That is why my client thought that she had copies of everything. My niece did it for me. She hadn't understood that a backup cannot magically add other things to itself without even being plugged into the computer. Lisi - I'll never understand how people can... A) be so computer illiterate, B) Not care, C) Blame or argue with the person who ACTUALLY knows something about it... I have had clients who are paying me to fix it for them and argue all the way about it. Like if you knew better you prolly wouldn't be in given situation or be paying me to fix it... [/rant] TeddyB
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 14:49:43 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 13:09, Camaleón wrote: Last backup was from a year ago, that should give you some hints about how valuable is data for the user. That is a hint about whether the computer is a tool or a lifestyle for the user, it has nothing to do with the value of the data. I only wish that the backup-valuable correlation were true! Well, it is. Is the user who has to value his/her work (something that I find important can have zero value your you, for instance). And common sense has to be applied for all the aspects in the life, not just computers. Let me use an example to illustrate this. Imagine there is an elderly and experienced writer that is still using his old and trustworthy Olivetti typing machine for his work. He has to publish a new book before the end of this year and he starts by making some drafts and manual annotations about the book's main story. Then, he starts typing the firsts chapters of the book with his Olivetti, and reaches 100 pages... At this point, the writer can: a) Do nothing and wait for the best, he is a very organized person and thinks nothing can happen to the hundred pages he already wrote. b) Go to the store and make a couple of photocopies, just in case. Well, this is the same diatribe that every computer user has to face for his data but still, this has nothing to do with the user's computer abilities (there are many easy -and automated- ways for dealing with this) but his interest. The same happens with the elderly writer: there is no need to be the smartest people in the world nor being a literate in any specific field to care about your work (and your time) and be careful enough to prevent any disaster. So, no... people who pretend to give value to his data and has not performed a single backup copy of his files in years, I just simply say, heck, no, those files weren't that important. NTFS is quite robust. In fact, it survives better to unforeseen shutdowns than other linux filesystems. And again, if you are concerned about the fragile status of the file system, run the diagnosis tools in test mode. Against power outages, yes, NTFS is very robust. But there are other ways to screw it up easily, one of which is simply _writing_ to it with an immature driver. I understand that today's Linux drivers are better in this regard, but just a few years ago one would not want to write often to an NTFS partition without booting it into Windows occasionally for some error checking. The drivers are reverse engineered and are not 100% reliable, or at least until recently they weren't. Yes, NTFS under linux (ntfs-3g) is not my favourite way for working with NTFS volumes. I always let windows itself to manage and perform the required diagnostic operations when I have to handle this file system. By the way, NTFS does not support some features of Linux filesystems, and will fail silently while loosing data. Writing a filename with a colon is one good example of how to get bitten by this. Permissions are sometimes problematic as well. Well, I was not meant to say NTFS is the best file system in the world :-), just is not that fragile as people tends to think or as FAT was. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2011.01.05.14.26...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Wednesday 05 January 2011 12:03:59 Camaleón wrote: At least you should have learned one lesson: _never trust_ what your users say and tell them to _prove_ their wording with facts (that is, by checking with her that the data was properly backed up and can be restored from the aforementioned unexistent copy) ;-) I did look at the pen drive to make sure that the copies were there and retrievable. But I didn't know enough about her data to know that the most recent 'photos were missing. It is not certain that they could have been rescued at that point even if I had known! If it weren't for the fact that she is going around telling very hurtful untruths about me, I would be the gainer. She was hard work, demanding and not very profitable! But sometimes they _know_ that they haven't got copies, but are unwilling to have them. It means buying something to put them on. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201101051428.47315.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Wednesday 05 January 2011 14:26:32 Camaleón wrote: So, no... people who pretend to give value to his data and has not performed a single backup copy of his files in years, I just simply say, heck, no, those files weren't that important. You aren't making enough allowance for the fact that the majority of users think that computers are magic devices that never fail. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201101051437.25448.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Qua, 05 Jan 2011, Lisi wrote: On Wednesday 05 January 2011 14:26:32 Camaleón wrote: So, no... people who pretend to give value to his data and has not performed a single backup copy of his files in years, I just simply say, heck, no, those files weren't that important. You aren't making enough allowance for the fact that the majority of users think that computers are magic devices that never fail. They also think that when they fail the support person can always easily and successfully recover everything. -- I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone. -- Steven Wright Eduardo M KALINOWSKI edua...@kalinowski.com.br -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110105131136.800328356wdor...@mail.kalinowski.com.br
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 14:37:25 +, Lisi wrote: On Wednesday 05 January 2011 14:26:32 Camaleón wrote: So, no... people who pretend to give value to his data and has not performed a single backup copy of his files in years, I just simply say, heck, no, those files weren't that important. You aren't making enough allowance for the fact that the majority of users think that computers are magic devices that never fail. What would you think if a person tells you that he thought his car was going to be fed automatically? Hey, he didn't know there were oil stations that provide such facilities and he also thought that being year 2011 the cars do not need fuel (nor any other power source) to be started :-) Computers aren't magic devices (nor cars) and users have to be very aware of this. So, no... I make no concessions here :-) And giving credit to that magicallities is a big error which usually has bad consequences for the user (like the example you provided). Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2011.01.05.15.15...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Wednesday 05 January 2011 15:15:43 Camaleón wrote: What would you think if a person tells you that he thought his car was going to be fed automatically? Hey, he didn't know there were oil stations that provide such facilities and he also thought that being year 2011 the cars do not need fuel (nor any other power source) to be started They know that the computer needs electricity and that the car needs petrol. I doubt that most people know more than that. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201101051550.47702.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 15:50:47 +, Lisi wrote: On Wednesday 05 January 2011 15:15:43 Camaleón wrote: What would you think if a person tells you that he thought his car was going to be fed automatically? Hey, he didn't know there were oil stations that provide such facilities and he also thought that being year 2011 the cars do not need fuel (nor any other power source) to be started They know that the computer needs electricity and that the car needs petrol. I doubt that most people know more than that. Really!!?? I wish they remember -at least- just that :-P He, he... You may have not read the obscure stories that happen at tech. support centers: http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_power.shtml (read, read on...) Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2011.01.05.16.07...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
Camaleón wrote: They know that the computer needs electricity and that the car needs petrol. I doubt that most people know more than that. Really!!?? I wish they remember -at least- just that :-P He, he... You may have not read the obscure stories that happen at tech. support centers: http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_power.shtml notable for it's absence: Tech: Look at the back of the machine, is the power on? Customer: I can't tell. Tech: Why not? Customer: It's too dark? Tech: Turn on a light. Customer: Can't Tech: Why not? Customer: The power seems to be out. -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. Infnord practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4d24ad25.3080...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
Dne, 05. 01. 2011 15:28:47 je Lisi napisal(a): On Wednesday 05 January 2011 12:03:59 Camaleón wrote: At least you should have learned one lesson: _never trust_ what your users say and tell them to _prove_ their wording with facts (that is, by checking with her that the data was properly backed up and can be restored from the aforementioned unexistent copy) ;-) I did look at the pen drive to make sure that the copies were there and retrievable. But I didn't know enough about her data to know that the most recent 'photos were missing. It is not certain that they could have been rescued at that point even if I had known! If it weren't for the fact that she is going around telling very hurtful untruths about me, I would be the gainer. She was hard work, demanding and not very profitable! But sometimes they _know_ that they haven't got copies, but are unwilling to have them. It means buying something to put them on. Lisi Seems I'm one of the few who sincerely think that not all users should, or even could, be required to know the inner workings of each and every technology they use. In real life, people are forced (by their job or whatever) to use many modern technologies, and in our technology-based development model, this trend is bound to increase. Should every driver necessarily know ALL the fluid circuits of a vehicle, and their check/refill intervals? I honestly don't -- do you? Of course I know the obvious -- the fuel, the cooling fluid, the brake fluid -- but beyond that, everything becomes vague, blurred and, well, fluid. The cars should be (and, after decades of development, finally are) projected such that without all the fluids in place they simply won't start, while notifying the driver with an appropriate flashing indicator on the dashboard. Much the same should go for computers -- even more so, since in computers, automating tasks is not just a collateral object, but the primary one. An operating system should have reliable backup policies built-in; for example, it should backup the entire /home subtree to rewritable DVDs, or a network share, on a weekly basis. When installing the system, the user should be asked where to and how often the backups should be made, just as (s)he is asked for the time zone and the language to be used. Without this info, the installation should simply refuse to go on. Computers -- just as cars -- are not aficionado, niche technology anymore, and we should stop treating them as such: a computer operating system should be as resilient, self-sufficient and user-independent as humanly possible. That doesn't mean, of course, that knowing the inner workings of our technologies should be obfuscated or even actively prevented (as seems, sadly, to be the trend in both Mac OS and Windows). However, it should be left to individual preferences, not forced upon us one way or the other. I, for one, enjoy fiddling with computers; but not nearly as much as I despise anything that has to do with inner combustion engines ... -- Cheerio, Klistvud http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com Certifiable Loonix User #481801 Please reply to the list, not to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1294249838.1996...@compax
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
Zeroth rule of support - never trust your user's to tell you the entire story (corollary - people lie about what happened) First rule of support - before deleting *anything* make a backup copy yourself -- Patrick Ouellette p...@flying-gecko.net ne4po (at) arrl (dot) net Amateur Radio: NE4PO What kind of change have you been in the world today? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110105165045.gb24...@flying-gecko.net
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Wednesday 05 January 2011 16:07:41 Camaleón wrote: He, he... You may have not read the obscure stories that happen at tech. support centers: http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_power.shtml (read, read on...) :-) ! Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201101051752.56019.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On 01/05/2011 11:20 PM, Klistvud wrote: Dne, 05. 01. 2011 15:28:47 je Lisi napisal(a): On Wednesday 05 January 2011 12:03:59 Camaleón wrote: At least you should have learned one lesson: _never trust_ what your users say and tell them to _prove_ their wording with facts (that is, by checking with her that the data was properly backed up and can be restored from the aforementioned unexistent copy) ;-) I did look at the pen drive to make sure that the copies were there and retrievable. But I didn't know enough about her data to know that the most recent 'photos were missing. It is not certain that they could have been rescued at that point even if I had known! If it weren't for the fact that she is going around telling very hurtful untruths about me, I would be the gainer. She was hard work, demanding and not very profitable! But sometimes they _know_ that they haven't got copies, but are unwilling to have them. It means buying something to put them on. Lisi Seems I'm one of the few who sincerely think that not all users should, or even could, be required to know the inner workings of each and every technology they use. In real life, people are forced (by their job or whatever) to use many modern technologies, and in our technology-based development model, this trend is bound to increase. Should every driver necessarily know ALL the fluid circuits of a vehicle, and their check/refill intervals? I honestly don't -- do you? Of course I know the obvious -- the fuel, the cooling fluid, the brake fluid -- but beyond that, everything becomes vague, blurred and, well, fluid. The cars should be (and, after decades of development, finally are) projected such that without all the fluids in place they simply won't start, while notifying the driver with an appropriate flashing indicator on the dashboard. Much the same should go for computers -- even more so, since in computers, automating tasks is not just a collateral object, but the primary one. An operating system should have reliable backup policies built-in; for example, it should backup the entire /home subtree to rewritable DVDs, or a network share, on a weekly basis. When installing the system, the user should be asked where to and how often the backups should be made, just as (s)he is asked for the time zone and the language to be used. Without this info, the installation should simply refuse to go on. Computers -- just as cars -- are not aficionado, niche technology anymore, and we should stop treating them as such: a computer operating system should be as resilient, self-sufficient and user-independent as humanly possible. That doesn't mean, of course, that knowing the inner workings of our technologies should be obfuscated or even actively prevented (as seems, sadly, to be the trend in both Mac OS and Windows). However, it should be left to individual preferences, not forced upon us one way or the other. I, for one, enjoy fiddling with computers; but not nearly as much as I despise anything that has to do with inner combustion engines ... And yet, you took the trouble to actually learn that the car needs coolant in the radiator, gas in the tank and other oil in their respective places and you too the trouble to learn how to fill/refill those. The car is not set to automatically fill them up are they ? Same applies for the PC. Just as a car owner learns those things to use his car, a PC owner should take the trouble to learn the basics which includes learning the importance of backups and setting up backups. Also mandatory setting of backups during the install process doesnt make much sense as the same OS can be installed in any number of setups where backup media may not be available at the time of installation. It should be set as an optional post installation procedure. Mihira. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4d24b8d9.7070...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Mihira Fernando mihirathe...@gmail.comwrote: On 01/05/2011 11:20 PM, Klistvud wrote: Seems I'm one of the few who sincerely think that not all users should, or even could, be required to know the inner workings of each and every technology they use. In real life, people are forced (by their job or whatever) [snip] And yet, you took the trouble to actually learn that the car needs coolant in the radiator, gas in the tank and other oil in their respective places and you too the trouble to learn how to fill/refill those. The car is not set to automatically fill them up are they ? Same applies for the PC. Just as a car owner learns those things to use his car, a PC owner should take the trouble to learn the basics which includes learning the importance of backups and setting up backups. Also mandatory setting of backups during the install process doesnt make much sense as the same OS can be installed in any number of setups where backup media may not be available at the time of installation. It should be set as an optional post installation procedure. I think some people don't view a computer as their own car, but more like the public bus. Someone else maintains it, keeps it running, and all they have to do is use it. My dad sees it this way, at least, and I'm guessing he's not the only one. Only until he experiences the pain of lost data will he change his ways. There are probably others like this. Bailing someone out is sometimes the best way to ensure the bad habits persist as they don't see reason to change their ways. I'm not suggesting letting things fail intentionally, but I think the point is understandable nonetheless. Mark
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Wed, Jan 05, 2011 at 06:50:38PM +0100, Klistvud wrote: Dne, 05. 01. 2011 15:28:47 je Lisi napisal(a): On Wednesday 05 January 2011 12:03:59 Camaleón wrote: At least you should have learned one lesson: _never trust_ what your users say and tell them to _prove_ their wording with facts (that is, by checking with her that the data was properly backed up and can be restored from the aforementioned unexistent copy) ;-) I did look at the pen drive to make sure that the copies were there and retrievable. But I didn't know enough about her data to know that the most recent 'photos were missing. It is not certain that they could have been rescued at that point even if I had known! If it weren't for the fact that she is going around telling very hurtful untruths about me, I would be the gainer. She was hard work, demanding and not very profitable! But sometimes they _know_ that they haven't got copies, but are unwilling to have them. It means buying something to put them on. Lisi Seems I'm one of the few who sincerely think that not all users should, or even could, be required to know the inner workings of each and every technology they use. In real life, people are forced (by their job or whatever) to use many modern technologies, and in our technology-based development model, this trend is bound to increase. Should every driver necessarily know ALL the fluid circuits of a vehicle, and their check/refill intervals? I honestly don't -- do you? Of course I know the snip But you carry a spare tire, right? And if you have an unreliable car, maybe you should have a bicycle on-hand in case you really need to get to work one day and your car won't start. I equate that to having a backup of your data. The problem I've seen several times, though, is when an application hides your data away somewhere. Itunes, for instance. My brother-in-law has no idea where is music is, other than it's in Itunes. That makes backing it up pretty difficult for the novice. -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110106002206.gb4...@aurora.owens.net
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Wed, Jan 05, 2011 at 06:50:38PM +0100, Klistvud wrote: .snip The cars should be (and, after decades of development, finally are) projected such that without all the fluids in place they simply won't start, while notifying the driver with an appropriate flashing indicator on the dashboard. Not true. Low coolant, trans fluid, differential lube, etc give no warning. .snip.. but not nearly as much as I despise anything that has to do with inner combustion engines ... That's obvious. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Monday 29 November 2010 16:47:31 Camaleón wrote: Oh, c'mon. There is no need to be a computer scientist to care about your data. Not today. You can buy a USB external disk (or DVD media) and put there your beloved files. Even Windows can automate this task for you. In my experience hoi polloi simply don't understand the value of or need for backup. I frequently find people who have data that is very important to them, even crucial to their business, who have no backup. They think of the computer as some sort of incomprehensible magic, not a machine whose behaviour can be predicted or analysed, and which can fail. I'll give you an example. One old lady, whose computing I supported, took 'photos of all her holidays, which she looked at often to cheer herself up and remind her of a happy experience. These 'photos were very valuable to her. I repeatedly advised her to have an off-computer copy, instead of having only the one copy on one HDD. (She wiped the 'photos from her camera memory card as soon as she had uploaded them.) One day she messed up her registry to the point where reinstallation was essential. She assured me when asked that her precious 'photos were all fine and she had off-computer copies of all of them. When, after the event, it became obvious that a small percentage of the photos was missing, she asked me to install Picasa because that is where those 'photos are. Don't underestimate the gulf of incomprehension that exists in the non-geek world at large. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201101041558.40983.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 15:58:40 +, Lisi wrote: On Monday 29 November 2010 16:47:31 Camaleón wrote: Oh, c'mon. There is no need to be a computer scientist to care about your data. Not today. You can buy a USB external disk (or DVD media) and put there your beloved files. Even Windows can automate this task for you. In my experience hoi polloi simply don't understand the value of or need for backup. I frequently find people who have data that is very important to them, even crucial to their business, who have no backup. Important data and no data backup in the same phrase do not compute :-) (yep, I know what you wanted to mean here) They think of the computer as some sort of incomprehensible magic, not a machine whose behaviour can be predicted or analysed, and which can fail. I tend to instruct people who asks me about their computers (mostly my family -mother, uncle-... and friends) on the convenience of making periodical backups for their data (images, e-mails, docs, etc...) and how they can do the job with easy steps (by simply copy/paste a folder into USB keys, using a DVD or, depending on amount of the data to copy, using an external disk). I care of them and I give practical and exact instructions (by e-mail, by phone...) but I cannot manage all of their computers neither want to become the handy-techie-do-it-all-support girl here :-) I'll give you an example. One old lady, whose computing I supported, took 'photos of all her holidays, which she looked at often to cheer herself up and remind her of a happy experience. These 'photos were very valuable to her. I repeatedly advised her to have an off-computer copy, instead of having only the one copy on one HDD. (She wiped the 'photos from her camera memory card as soon as she had uploaded them.) One day she messed up her registry to the point where reinstallation was essential. She assured me when asked that her precious 'photos were all fine and she had off-computer copies of all of them. When, after the event, it became obvious that a small percentage of the photos was missing, she asked me to install Picasa because that is where those 'photos are. Re-ouch! The missing photos were stored online? At least she had a happy ending... this time. Don't underestimate the gulf of incomprehension that exists in the non-geek world at large. Yes, and the gulf can have the size of a black hole O:-)... but you know how these human-things go after all: unless they lose something *really* important for them, they won't care about backups, no matter what you do or tell, they'll simply do... nothing. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2011.01.04.16.56...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Tuesday 04 January 2011 16:56:58 Camaleón wrote: One day she messed up her registry to the point where reinstallation was essential. She assured me when asked that her precious 'photos were all fine and she had off-computer copies of all of them. When, after the event, it became obvious that a small percentage of the photos was missing, she asked me to install Picasa because that is where those 'photos are. Re-ouch! The missing photos were stored online? At least she had a happy ending... this time. No, she didn't. She thought that because she had used the program Picasa, then Picasa would magically produce her 'photos. She did not have them online. There was only the one copy on her computer. She just usually viewed them with Picasa. I did paid support. I had to support no matter how daft the client insisted on being. And no, she didn't learn. She just sacked me!! I had explained in words of one syllable till I was blue in the face, and her niece bought her a pen drive and backed all the then current pictures up. She also explained in words of one syllable. That is why my client thought that she had copies of everything. My niece did it for me. She hadn't understood that a backup cannot magically add other things to itself without even being plugged into the computer. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201101042026.37526.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 20:00:01 +, Joe wrote: On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 16:47:31 + (UTC) Camaleón wrote: On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 17:20:27 +0100, Johannes Wiedersich wrote: Daughter is a banker, not computer scientist. IMHO many of those underestimate the importance of backups. Oh, c'mon. There is no need to be a computer scientist to care about your data. Not today. You can buy a USB external disk (or DVD media) and put there your beloved files. Even Windows can automate this task for you. I think what he's saying is that there are only two classes of user who are even aware of the possibility of data loss: - People who work in IT - Other people who have already lost data, who never had backups Almost every other computer user will look at you blankly if you ask 'what will you do if the hard drive fails?' because they are unable to grasp the concept. Yes, I see the point. I have been working in IT tech. support for many years and finally reached the conclusion there are two kinds of people: 1) those who care about what they are doing and want to learn -they can be savvier or dummier but at least they demonstrate interest- and 2) those who treat their computers the same as a fridge or cleaning vacuum :-) For 1) I always try to give them the proper information, at least a jump point from where to start digging and also answer their questions whatever they are. My advice for 2) is rent a computer guy -or be next to a nerd- to do the job or you will face serious problems in a couple of months :-) Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.11.30.12.30...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Camaleón wrote: On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 18:48:18 +0100, Axel Freyn wrote: A similiar point is true for scandisk / chkdsk: Again, independent on the filesystem: Once the filesystem is corrupted, the recovery tool has to make assumptions about what is the correct information -- and if it makes the wrong assumption, it WILL destroy data. For example: How can chkdsk guarantee that, whenever it writes some information on the disk, it uses a truely free part of the disc? maybe on this place was a piece of an important file, which was lost by the file-system corruption? Well, no need to worry. You are thinking in the worst scenario but even if the file system structure is completey destroyed, defrag is also capable of performing a test only disk analysis and so does chkdsk. Well, it depends on the value of the data whether to worry or not. If it really is important data and the disk already shows some harddisk errors (one possible reason for the failure to boot), then it might be really dangerous to strain the fragile device with time consuming windows defrag instead on focussing on getting the data off the dying disk. - -- Johannes In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. - - Galileo Galilei, physicist and astronomer (1564-1642) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEUEARECAAYFAkzzgT0ACgkQC1NzPRl9qEUG9gCfdu4mZjpzlu0IsJx+LWyrayFC NFcAlRvQhXinjXTqy3hL23vYO92Fx2k= =r8bN -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cf3813d.80...@physik.blm.tu-muenchen.de
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:32:29 +0100, Johannes Wiedersich wrote: Camaleón wrote: Well, no need to worry. You are thinking in the worst scenario but even if the file system structure is completey destroyed, defrag is also capable of performing a test only disk analysis and so does chkdsk. Well, it depends on the value of the data whether to worry or not. If it really is important data and the disk already shows some harddisk errors (one possible reason for the failure to boot), then it might be really dangerous to strain the fragile device with time consuming windows defrag instead on focussing on getting the data off the dying disk. Last backup was from a year ago, that should give you some hints about how valuable is data for the user. NTFS is quite robust. In fact, it survives better to unforeseen shutdowns than other linux filesystems. And again, if you are concerned about the fragile status of the file system, run the diagnosis tools in test mode. Heck, diagnosis tools are precisely for debugging problems with hard disk and file system structure. You can't even know there is a problem -nor what kind of problem is- if you don't get feedback from these tools. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.11.29.11.09...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Camaleón wrote: On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:32:29 +0100, Johannes Wiedersich wrote: Last backup was from a year ago, that should give you some hints about how valuable is data for the user. Daughter is a banker, not computer scientist. IMHO many of those underestimate the importance of backups. NTFS is quite robust. In fact, it survives better to unforeseen shutdowns than other linux filesystems. And again, if you are concerned about the fragile status of the file system, run the diagnosis tools in test mode. My point was not related to the robustness of the file system, it was related to the robustness of the hardware. If it turns out that the hardware is ok, there is still time to fix the fs AFTER the data have been copied. Cheers, - -- Johannes In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. - - Galileo Galilei, physicist and astronomer (1564-1642) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkzz0ssACgkQC1NzPRl9qEVJ2gCdHqajkNyh21XixZUzNu9Mlkhr CFwAnRQ9rFpsDtAvCOmaz6i/HoYzQ5HK =xRap -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cf3d2cb.5030...@physik.blm.tu-muenchen.de
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 17:20:27 +0100, Johannes Wiedersich wrote: Camaleón wrote: On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:32:29 +0100, Johannes Wiedersich wrote: Last backup was from a year ago, that should give you some hints about how valuable is data for the user. Daughter is a banker, not computer scientist. IMHO many of those underestimate the importance of backups. Oh, c'mon. There is no need to be a computer scientist to care about your data. Not today. You can buy a USB external disk (or DVD media) and put there your beloved files. Even Windows can automate this task for you. NTFS is quite robust. In fact, it survives better to unforeseen shutdowns than other linux filesystems. And again, if you are concerned about the fragile status of the file system, run the diagnosis tools in test mode. My point was not related to the robustness of the file system, it was related to the robustness of the hardware. If it turns out that the hardware is ok, there is still time to fix the fs AFTER the data have been copied. Which is a good procedure as long as you can backup your data. If you can't even copy/paste or dump it to another source you'll have to deal with your fragile hardware. And IIRC, hard disk was visible and even mountable but if you still think there is a hardware failure, then better use the manufacturer's disk utilities to check hard disk integrity (they run from DOS floppy or live ISO image). Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.11.29.16.47...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 16:47:31 + (UTC) Camaleón noela...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 17:20:27 +0100, Johannes Wiedersich wrote: Daughter is a banker, not computer scientist. IMHO many of those underestimate the importance of backups. Oh, c'mon. There is no need to be a computer scientist to care about your data. Not today. You can buy a USB external disk (or DVD media) and put there your beloved files. Even Windows can automate this task for you. I think what he's saying is that there are only two classes of user who are even aware of the possibility of data loss: - People who work in IT - Other people who have already lost data, who never had backups Almost every other computer user will look at you blankly if you ask 'what will you do if the hard drive fails?' because they are unable to grasp the concept. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2010112921.2992f...@jresid.jretrading.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Sunday 28 November 2010 14:54:49 Thomas H. George wrote: Situation: My daughter works for a bank and must use Microsoft to work at home. Yesterday the system would not boot - no safe mode, no nothing, just return to loading bios. The machine is an HP desktop which came preloaded with Windows XP Professional. As instructed we made a recovery disk and some backup files. I now find the recovery disk will only wipe the hard drive clean and reinstall XP. The backup files are a year out of date. At the time she bought the machine I installed a second hard drive, installed Lenny and configured mbr for dual boot. Yesterday I edited fstab to include a mount point for the Windows primary partition setting the file type to auto and was able to mount the partition and read files. Hoping to save the recent information I tried rsync -vr /c /c_bkup. This didn't work, many messages about incorrect nodes. Is there any chance of recovering usable files before we wipe out her hard drive? Tom I am not an expert on recovery, but I would get an other Hd and make a copy of her W hard drive using dd, then work on the copy. Then tag: week-end tell your daughter not to work for banks, they keep screwing us up, and tell her not to work home on week-end, it's a bad habit End tag Thierry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201011281624.08625.tchate...@free.fr
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 08:54:49 -0500, Thomas H. George wrote: Situation: My daughter works for a bank and must use Microsoft to work at home. Yesterday the system would not boot - no safe mode, no nothing, just return to loading bios. (...) Is there any chance of recovering usable files before we wipe out her hard drive? I would try with plain copy/paste. If that also fails, put the disk into external USB case, attach it to another windows xp (or later) box and perform there the common file system diagnostic tasks (scan disk and defrag). Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.11.28.15.31...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
Hi, On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 03:31:48PM +, Camaleón wrote: On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 08:54:49 -0500, Thomas H. George wrote: Situation: My daughter works for a bank and must use Microsoft to work at home. Yesterday the system would not boot - no safe mode, no nothing, just return to loading bios. (...) Is there any chance of recovering usable files before we wipe out her hard drive? I would try with plain copy/paste. If that also fails, put the disk into external USB case, attach it to another windows xp (or later) box and perform there the common file system diagnostic tasks (scan disk and defrag). But that is extremly dangerous...: you risk to loose/destroy informations on the damaged filesystem (nobody guarantees, that scandisk is not destroying data...). And especially defrag: this WILL destroy data, which are in lost files (=sectors of the harddisk which seem to be free according to the file system...). So, as Thierry already proposed: Make first a copy of the complete partition (using dd and ignoring the filesystem) and then work on the copy. And when you mount the original partition: do it ONLY with read-only flag -- in order not to destroy data! Of course the question is: How important are the data, and how much time do you want to invest in order to recover them? Using cp or rsync you alread can copy some data... After that, you should first try to determine WHICH files you need -- and where the messages about incorrect inodes appear: for example, it is absolutely useless to try to recover the system-file e.g. in /windows/system32 -- you only have to worry about the data-files created by your daughter. Maybe those (at least some of them) can be copied without any problems? As last resort you can try tools like scrounge-ntfs -- this is a debian package to rescue data from damaged NTFS-Filesystems. But be careful: each time you write something on the filesystem (e.g.: also by using defrag or scandisc from windows) you risk to loose data and make recovery harder or even impossible, so: work on a copy of the disk!) Axel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101128162217.gc5...@axel
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 08:54:49 -0500 Thomas H. George li...@tomgeorge.info wrote: Situation: My daughter works for a bank and must use Microsoft to work at home. Yesterday the system would not boot - no safe mode, no nothing, just return to loading bios. The machine is an HP desktop which came preloaded with Windows XP Professional. As instructed we made a recovery disk and some backup files. I now find the recovery disk will only wipe the hard drive clean and reinstall XP. The backup files are a year out of date. At the time she bought the machine I installed a second hard drive, installed Lenny and configured mbr for dual boot. Yesterday I edited fstab to include a mount point for the Windows primary partition setting the file type to auto and was able to mount the partition and read files. Hoping to save the recent information I tried rsync -vr /c /c_bkup. This didn't work, many messages about incorrect nodes. Is there any chance of recovering usable files before we wipe out her hard drive? My recommendation would be to boot Knoppix from a live DVD (it really is a live-only distribution, it isn't maintainable). I recovered all but about 35 files from a Vista installation on a laptop which had been dropped, and the drive had hard errors, presumably where the heads bounced. Lenny is *the* server distribution, but it isn't especially up-to-date, and NTFS is a moving target. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101128164259.0b948...@jresid.jretrading.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 08:54:49AM -0500, Thomas H. George wrote: Situation: My daughter works for a bank and must use Microsoft to work at home. Yesterday the system would not boot - no safe mode, no nothing, just return to loading bios. The machine is an HP desktop which came preloaded with Windows XP Professional. As instructed we made a recovery disk and some backup files. I now find the recovery disk will only wipe the hard drive clean and reinstall XP. The backup files are a year out of date. At the time she bought the machine I installed a second hard drive, installed Lenny and configured mbr for dual boot. Yesterday I edited fstab to include a mount point for the Windows primary partition setting the file type to auto and was able to mount the partition and read files. Hoping to save the recent information I tried rsync -vr /c /c_bkup. This didn't work, many messages about incorrect nodes. Is there any chance of recovering usable files before we wipe out her hard drive? If you don't have any luck copying files due to filesystem errors, you should try photorec. (I think it's in the 'testdisk' package). It can find files that the filesystem doesn't know is there. This includes some files that have been deleted. -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101128165953.gb4...@aurora.owens.net
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 17:22:17 +0100, Axel Freyn wrote: On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 03:31:48PM +, Camaleón wrote: On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 08:54:49 -0500, Thomas H. George wrote: Situation: My daughter works for a bank and must use Microsoft to work at home. Yesterday the system would not boot - no safe mode, no nothing, just return to loading bios. (...) Is there any chance of recovering usable files before we wipe out her hard drive? I would try with plain copy/paste. If that also fails, put the disk into external USB case, attach it to another windows xp (or later) box and perform there the common file system diagnostic tasks (scan disk and defrag). But that is extremly dangerous...: you risk to loose/destroy informations on the damaged filesystem (nobody guarantees, that scandisk is not destroying data...). And especially defrag: this WILL destroy data, which are in lost files (=sectors of the harddisk which seem to be free according to the file system...). (...) I've never heard neither seen that before and have worked with ntfs volumes during many years. In fact, I've managed to restore to live windows systems that were unable to boot up by following that procedure (even an unexpected shutdown can make the OS to be unbootable -system files tend to become easily corrupted- and checking the file system structure solves the issue). Scan disk (chkdsk) and defrag are the standard and recommended tools for dealing with MS file systems problems. Maybe they cannot solve the problem but won't aggravate it either. And before wiping out the hard disk, I think it is at least worth a try. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.11.28.17.05...@gmail.com
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
Hi Camaleón, But that is extremly dangerous...: you risk to loose/destroy informations on the damaged filesystem (nobody guarantees, that scandisk is not destroying data...). And especially defrag: this WILL destroy data, which are in lost files (=sectors of the harddisk which seem to be free according to the file system...). (...) I've never heard neither seen that before and have worked with ntfs volumes during many years. In fact, I've managed to restore to live windows systems that were unable to boot up by following that procedure (even an unexpected shutdown can make the OS to be unbootable -system files tend to become easily corrupted- and checking the file system structure solves the issue). Scan disk (chkdsk) and defrag are the standard and recommended tools for dealing with MS file systems problems. Maybe they cannot solve the problem but won't aggravate it either. And before wiping out the hard disk, I think it is at least worth a try. The point I wanted to make is the following: Defrag shifts parts of the files -- and in order to do so, it OVERWRITES unused parts of the disk. Now: as soon as the filesystem is corrupted, one can't trust anymore in the information which parts are unused -- so it can happen that defrag (or any other tool which writs on the disk) overwrites file-informations, which belong to a lost file, but which are believed to be free and unused by the filesystem. In my opinion, this danger is not limited to ntfs, but exists in every filesystem: as soon as the filesystem is corrupted, one can't guarantee that the blocks marked as free don't contain usefull information -- and that's why I wouldn't write anything on the partition! A similiar point is true for scandisk / chkdsk: Again, independent on the filesystem: Once the filesystem is corrupted, the recovery tool has to make assumptions about what is the correct information -- and if it makes the wrong assumption, it WILL destroy data. For example: How can chkdsk guarantee that, whenever it writes some information on the disk, it uses a truely free part of the disc? maybe on this place was a piece of an important file, which was lost by the file-system corruption? Of course the question is, how important the data are -- is it worth the effort to first create a copy of the partition and then to work on the copy? Axel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101128174818.ge5...@axel
Re: Can Debian Backup ntfs File System?
On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 18:48:18 +0100, Axel Freyn wrote: Hi Camaleón, But that is extremly dangerous...: you risk to loose/destroy informations on the damaged filesystem (nobody guarantees, that scandisk is not destroying data...). And especially defrag: this WILL destroy data, which are in lost files (=sectors of the harddisk which seem to be free according to the file system...). (...) I've never heard neither seen that before and have worked with ntfs volumes during many years. In fact, I've managed to restore to live windows systems that were unable to boot up by following that procedure (even an unexpected shutdown can make the OS to be unbootable -system files tend to become easily corrupted- and checking the file system structure solves the issue). Scan disk (chkdsk) and defrag are the standard and recommended tools for dealing with MS file systems problems. Maybe they cannot solve the problem but won't aggravate it either. And before wiping out the hard disk, I think it is at least worth a try. The point I wanted to make is the following: Defrag shifts parts of the files -- and in order to do so, it OVERWRITES unused parts of the disk. Now: as soon as the filesystem is corrupted, one can't trust anymore in the information which parts are unused -- so it can happen that defrag (or any other tool which writs on the disk) overwrites file-informations, which belong to a lost file, but which are believed to be free and unused by the filesystem. In my opinion, this danger is not limited to ntfs, but exists in every filesystem: as soon as the filesystem is corrupted, one can't guarantee that the blocks marked as free don't contain usefull information -- and that's why I wouldn't write anything on the partition! A similiar point is true for scandisk / chkdsk: Again, independent on the filesystem: Once the filesystem is corrupted, the recovery tool has to make assumptions about what is the correct information -- and if it makes the wrong assumption, it WILL destroy data. For example: How can chkdsk guarantee that, whenever it writes some information on the disk, it uses a truely free part of the disc? maybe on this place was a piece of an important file, which was lost by the file-system corruption? Well, no need to worry. You are thinking in the worst scenario but even if the file system structure is completey destroyed, defrag is also capable of performing a test only disk analysis and so does chkdsk. Of course the question is, how important the data are -- is it worth the effort to first create a copy of the partition and then to work on the copy? A backup copy is always desiderable. In fact, there should already exist a copy with the latest backup... of a week ago and not from a year ago :-) Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.11.28.18.19...@gmail.com
