Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 01:00:10PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: When I'm waiting to turn left on a median, do I wait on the left edge or the right edge? When in doubt, take the lane. Seriously. Taking the lane is considered a defensive move in Oregon if the lanes are narrow, like the suicide lane tends to be. In the suicide lane, I ride right-of-center in case I have to jump out of it from an oncoming idiot using the suicide lane to merge with oncoming traffic. Both are bad -- one way cars have to cross in front of you, the other way you block visibility for people turning left to the right of you. Nobody should be next to you in the lane. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAPahpUzgNqloQMwcRAheOAJ99qV4i2uZjnqZyCE9zBZVfZoA7fACg4t+v qUkWLXK70A39TUw9ehpLj+U= =ThFD -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 09:36:51PM +, Pigeon wrote: Recent updates of the Highway Code allow both alternatives; they point out that offside-to-offside (tangle) turning is safer for the reason Colin gives, but allow the driver to judge which method to use depending on the particular circumstances. There is a little diagram of each method; that for nearside-to-nearside illustrates the danger by including a cyclist coming up the inside of one of the turning vehicles, whom the driver of the other vehicle cannot see. Not that it matters much, would be a bicycle-at-fault collision if the cyclist is riding on the right there, wouldn't it be? - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAPaj4UzgNqloQMwcRAvrGAKCvF4EZMTcfZebUmSNt+dRMkZM95gCg5XIT SnYgnF+GvzUPaeBcbRSuR+o= =+ghh -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 12:03:53AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: Both are bad -- one way cars have to cross in front of you, the other way you block visibility for people turning left to the right of you. Nobody should be next to you in the lane. Yes, people coming from the right turning left through the median: === /-- 3 - MEDIANMEDIAN 2 / MEDIANMEDIANMEDIANMEDIAN MEDIANMEDIAN ^ 4 MEDIANMEDIANMEDIANMEDIAN ^. ^ . ^. ^ ^ .^ . ^= | v : 1^ | | : ^ | You start at (1) and cross the first two lanes because that is clear. Then you wait at (2), because cars are coming through the right. Car coming from (3) is going to turn left, but now has to wait because traffic is coming from his right, so he waits at (4). If the intersection is sufficiently narrow, both of you block each others view and traffic stacks up. Smart intersections will have a bit of a merge lane here so you can get out of each others view. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Thursday 26 February 2004 00:41, Pigeon wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 05:04:26PM -0500, Bijan Soleymani wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 10:46:08PM +0100, Richard Lyons wrote: It's not too difficult to work out the maximum breaking force that can be applied before you get thrown onto the road. I believe it is 0.67g. Of course you can't achieve this with the rear wheel alone so by not using the front wheel you're sure not to flip over, but you're also getting much less deceleration. It's g tan theta, where theta is the angle between the vertical and a line drawn from the point where the wheel touches the road and the C of G of the (bike + rider). Thanks Pigeon -- I was too lazy to sketch the diagram. However, the available friction force between the tyre and the road places an upper limit on this, which will probably be something between 1 and 1.5 g depending on how sticky your tyres are. Which means that, for given conditions, there is a position which you have to move your butt behind to ensure you don't flip. Unfortunately, in dry conditions at least, on most push-bikes this position is way behind the saddle (and probably out of reach of the pedals, handlebar -- and thus out of reach of the brakes too!). -- richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 10:46:08PM +0100, Richard Lyons wrote: On Wednesday 25 February 2004 20:15, Monique Y. Herman wrote: On 2004-02-25, Paul Johnson penned: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 02:16:32PM +0200, Micha Feigin wrote: As for down hill, I ride quite a bit of free ride, not so much downhill since unfortunately I don't have the money for the big hit bikes, but the steeper the terrain the more I use the front break since the rear wheel has almost no traction on steep terrain. Because you're leaning forward already! Yeah, I'm a bit confused by this rear wheel traction statement. When I'm going downhill, I move my body back on the bike -- afaik, this is why good bike saddles are quite narrow -- to allow you the freedom to move front to back as necessary. Depending on how steep it gets, my whole pelvis could be behind the saddle. (This is somewhat from memory, as I'm a big wuss when it comes to cold + biking and haven't biked in a few months.) THe problem is not only one of weight distibution. Braking force is applied well below the centre of gravity by either wheel, so the resulting torque is in the same direction for both wheels - if you look from the side at a bike going left to right, the torque is clockwise. This means that the more the rear wheel tries to slow the bike, the more it is lifted off the pavement, reducing the available friction. So the power f the rear brake is self-limiting. The front brake on the other hand causes greater force to be applied to the pavement as it operates, increasing the braking effect -- and the tendency to cause rotation of the whole system (bike and rider) around the point of contact on the ground. It's not too difficult to work out the maximum breaking force that can be applied before you get thrown onto the road. Actually with proper technique you will lock the will and start sliding (which with front will skids usually leads to very fancy crash which nicely rivals a nice endo) before you flip over the handlebars. -- richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 12:06:16AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 09:36:51PM +, Pigeon wrote: Recent updates of the Highway Code allow both alternatives; they point out that offside-to-offside (tangle) turning is safer for the reason Colin gives, but allow the driver to judge which method to use depending on the particular circumstances. There is a little diagram of each method; that for nearside-to-nearside illustrates the danger by including a cyclist coming up the inside of one of the turning vehicles, whom the driver of the other vehicle cannot see. Not that it matters much, would be a bicycle-at-fault collision if the cyclist is riding on the right there, wouldn't it be? Nono, the cyclist is on the left, between one of the turning vehicles and the nearside kerb. He has right-of-way over the other turning vehicle, and it would be a car-at-fault collision, though a sensible cyclist would be aware of the possible danger and go slowly enough to stop. If he was on the right, AIUI technically he still has right of way, but it would probably be adjudged to be a bicycle-at-fault collision due to riding in a daft position. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 09:51:12AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 08:53:43AM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote: Its actually wrong also for bicycles. If you skid it takes a much longer time to stop. Another thing a lot of casual cyclists don't know is that you actually should stop mostly with the front brake (which is much much more effective). You just need to make sure to hold yourself in place with your hands not to go over the handlebar. You do that and you won't flip. Maybe you should take that opinion to alt.mountain-bike. When you have a good bike with strong brakes, you won't just throw yourself over the handlebars; you'll flip the whole damn bike, especially when you're going downhill. Oh, I missed that the first time...got lost trying to find context in the poor quoting. That's hilarious! I ride pretty often, and I almost never use my front brake. Only if it's raining do I move to the front brake, and even then, I don't go more than 50/50 front/back. Go ahead and do an e-stop on only your front brake. Let me know how much farther you go than the bike. Hint: How do you think the guy launched himself off the mountain bike in that chocolate milk commercial? I have no idea how this thread came to be, and alt.mountain-bike is a better place for it (although this is also true for road bikes), but just for the record (forgive me for being too wordy ;-) The myth about not touching your front break or you will a spectacular endo over your handle bar is a nice folk tale but almost completely wrong. Doing an endo depends on how well you use your hands to keep yourself in the right place and take your weight a bit back when needed. It all a matter of control. My girlfriend thought so too until I convinced her to start using the front break and now that she does it properly she is going several times faster since she's got the confidence she can actually stop when she needs to. I have done quite a few emergency breaks going at over 30Mph using only the front breaks and the only time I did an endo due to front breaks in the last few years was because I accidentally locked the front break going of a 2 foot drop at the wrong speed, and I have very good breaks (they are not discs, but the older XTs are some of the best V breaks around). Using the front break I can stop on a dime from 30Mph, using the rear I will be somewhere down the road glued to a wall probably. As for which break to use, it depends on the terrain and whether you are turning or not. Nice hard ground like rock or road you want to use mostly your front break, something like 70/30 or 80/20 in favor. The more slippery the more you need to feather the breaks and use more of the rear break since you can recover from skidding your rear wheel, its almost impossible to recover from skidding your front. On the other hand you need to ease up on the front break going into turns since the wheel is using most of its traction staying in the turn (breaking in turns is a tricky business with any vehicle, including cars). As for down hill, I ride quite a bit of free ride, not so much downhill since unfortunately I don't have the money for the big hit bikes, but the steeper the terrain the more I use the front break since the rear wheel has almost no traction on steep terrain. To see all this you can look at the older down hill and free ride bikes, before disc breaks were this popular. They usually had a front disc break and a rear V break since the rear break can't use as much power before skidding. Also small motorcycles and standard cars usually have a front disk break and a rear drum, and large motorcycles have a single disc break in the rear and a double disc break up front. The reason for doing the endo isn't the front break actually. When you break with the front break the bike puts more weight into the front wheel which improves traction, this causes it to break harder then you expect so your body goes forward. You do an endo only when the weight is centered in front of the front wheel instead of behind it. Try practicing your front break carefully, locking your elbows as a start when you do it until you get the feeling. You will quickly see the difference. BTW, once you start to get good control you can start doing the really fun stuff like lifting your rear wheel and driving just on your front, or doing a whip tail bringing your rear wheel around in tight switchbacks, etc. That being said, skidding is a bad idea while mountain biking for two reasons: one, you're out of control, and two, you're trashing the trail. Big time. -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] +++ This Mail
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 01:06:10PM -0500, Bijan Soleymani wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 09:53:45AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 10:42:44AM -0500, Bijan Soleymani wrote: I believe the proper technique is to brake harder with the front brakes and apply enough pressure to the rear brakes so that you can feel when the rear wheel is just about to lift off. Nope. The proper technique is to brake harder with the back and use the front for auxillary power, since then the force of you braking is being used to torque yourself down to the ground instead of torquing you over the bars. What you suggest is dangerously stupid and the source of a lot of bike/pedestrian collisions in Portland. We're talking about emergency breaking (making a panic stop). That's the way to stop in the least amount of time (using the front break most). This is not the safest way to break, but it's what you do in an emergency. Just like all these crazy car breaking techniques aren't what you use at each stop sign. It actually is the safest and fastest way to break once you got the technique right. You just don't want to lock the front break but its actually quite difficult to do on hard ground (when it gets slippery the technique changes). Using the front break doesn't make the bike go around the front wheel since like I said it takes VERY good breaks and even then you need quite a bit of force to do it (unlike the rear wheel). Pushing the front break send your weight into the front wheel thereby improving traction, so if your are not prepared its like breaking hard with a car, you body goes forward and the bike stays in place. Using the rear break takes your weight OFF the rear wheel which cause you to lose traction and skid. Bijan -- Bijan Soleymani [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.crasseux.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 02:16:32PM +0200, Micha Feigin wrote: [snip] bike week Hey, when you're done with that heavy-consumption-of-technology recreation you can play some centrifugal bumble puppy and a round of electromagnetic golf at the Charing T. I like to ride my bicicyle out on the trail by the bay. Sometimes when it rains I slip on the leaves and skin my knee. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On 2004-02-25, Paul Johnson penned: It doesn't help that you handle cross-traffic turns (left in the US, right in GB) by what Americans call tangle turning and is a major no-no on the west side of the pond...why hold fast to keep left when it's safer on a right turn at an intersection to keep right of oncoming traffic turning right the other direction while turning? It's understandable that there's a roundabout at major intersections, but to treat a standard intersection like one whether or not there's an island is a little nutty. As a USian, I'm really confused by this description of turning. Could you please explain the term tangle turning? -- monique -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 05:36:46AM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 02:16:32PM +0200, Micha Feigin wrote: [snip] bike week Hey, when you're done with that heavy-consumption-of-technology recreation you can play some centrifugal bumble puppy and a round of electromagnetic golf at the Charing T. I like to ride my bicicyle out on the trail by the bay. Sometimes when it rains I slip on the leaves and skin my knee. The answer to that is knee/shin guards, elbow guards, gloves, full face helmet, turtle back, etc. etc. Depends on how aggressive/crazy you are ;-) Hardly a ride goes by without me and my bike going out different directions, and not at a standstill. Every now and again it happens going over 20, usually a rock waiting by to give me a pat on the back (or usually the ribs actually ;-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 02:16:32PM +0200, Micha Feigin wrote: The myth about not touching your front break or you will a spectacular endo over your handle bar is a nice folk tale but almost completely wrong. Doing an endo depends on how well you use your hands to keep yourself in the right place and take your weight a bit back when needed. It all a matter of control. My girlfriend thought so too until I convinced her to start using the front break and now that she does it properly she is going several times faster since she's got the confidence she can actually stop when she needs to. I just keep well-tuned brakes and don't think about it anymore, since I can pretty close to stop on a dime up to about 20 MPH on my bike using the rear brake alone. I've endoed using the front brake before: If you're on a bicycle, it's just not intelligent to go slamming on the front brake, you sit too high and forward on a machine too light to do that without flipping it. Bicycles are unstable vehicles by design, no reason to make it more so. 30, I can still stop on a dime still mostly on the back brake using the front for help. Another thing the front brake has going against it is you can't hit it while you're signalling, and in most jurisdictions, you can get a ticket for not signalling. As for down hill, I ride quite a bit of free ride, not so much downhill since unfortunately I don't have the money for the big hit bikes, but the steeper the terrain the more I use the front break since the rear wheel has almost no traction on steep terrain. Because you're leaning forward already! BTW, once you start to get good control you can start doing the really fun stuff like lifting your rear wheel and driving just on your front, or doing a whip tail bringing your rear wheel around in tight switchbacks, etc. I still bring the back wheel off the ground even mostly using the back brake if I'm not watching it. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAPN3xUzgNqloQMwcRApmlAKCWbN6/VAzqN3LVqWj3msoll81CuwCfWvH9 G22MuGq8Xbi68UoHy9WMv8I= =NbYo -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 06:35:14PM +0200, Micha Feigin wrote: Hardly a ride goes by without me and my bike going out different directions, and not at a standstill. Every now and again it happens going over 20, usually a rock waiting by to give me a pat on the back (or usually the ribs actually ;-) I don't mind crashing, I just don't like the crashes that 1) screw my bike up, or 2) make me discover a kind of pain I never knew existed, and could have lived a full life not knowing they did. You know the kind that I'm talking about, the kind of pain that makes you question whether or not you actually exist and makes you ask people do the humane thing and put you out of your misery. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAPN76UzgNqloQMwcRAjrCAJ9NHgIY66XPb5ngyXv34i5cNvHGHACfSmvi JlK9UF3CeydzHAfdqzf4xDQ= =YWMP -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 08:48:55AM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote: As a USian, I'm really confused by this description of turning. Could you please explain the term tangle turning? If you were to perform a tangle turn in the US, when you turn left, you cut around the vehicle turning left the other way, sort of a vehicular dosey-do. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAPN/iUzgNqloQMwcRAgXbAKCTWZ8zGIuxQDlLaQZsBOq7/LyoMACbBCvj jNLw3JcrwBswPUJtks6YlM4= =LgDK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 08:48:55AM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote: On 2004-02-25, Paul Johnson penned: It doesn't help that you handle cross-traffic turns (left in the US, right in GB) by what Americans call tangle turning and is a major no-no on the west side of the pond...why hold fast to keep left when it's safer on a right turn at an intersection to keep right of oncoming traffic turning right the other direction while turning? It's understandable that there's a roundabout at major intersections, but to treat a standard intersection like one whether or not there's an island is a little nutty. As a USian, I'm really confused by this description of turning. Could you please explain the term tangle turning? Sort of like this: | | | /--\ || | | /--+--- | | | | | | | | ---+--/ | | || \-|/ | | | It's a requirement in the UK Highway Code. While Paul decries it on safety grounds, the rationale is in fact that going around the other vehicle like this is safer because you can see oncoming traffic at all times, instead of having to nose out with the car turning across you blocking your view. However, in practice this is often ignored on smaller junctions. (It's always obvious what the traffic around you is doing; you don't get no, I'm going *this* way situations.) (I contemplated taking this to private mail; probably should've done ... I invite replies by private mail.) -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 09:40:01AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: I just keep well-tuned brakes and don't think about it anymore, since I can pretty close to stop on a dime up to about 20 MPH on my bike using the rear brake alone. I don't know about that. Using just the rear break. I can completely lock my back wheel and my bike will keep going (especially downhill). It's not that the back break is too weak (it's locking the wheel). It's just that there's only so much breaking the back wheel can do. Bijan -- Bijan Soleymani [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.crasseux.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 06:00:03PM +, Colin Watson wrote: It's a requirement in the UK Highway Code. While Paul decries it on safety grounds, the rationale is in fact that going around the other vehicle like this is safer because you can see oncoming traffic at all times, instead of having to nose out with the car turning across you blocking your view. Actually, it's not usually the car coming at you that's blocking the view of where you're going, it's the cornerpost next to the windshield... - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAPOThUzgNqloQMwcRAt08AKCuOKOqaWQ4hpU/zNbw6qd7/o+hkwCeOAWf IK3HocWN+/HHRQf0ikMv8h8= =uenN -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 01:08:25PM -0500, Bijan Soleymani wrote: I don't know about that. Using just the rear break. I can completely lock my back wheel and my bike will keep going (especially downhill). It's not that the back break is too weak (it's locking the wheel). It's just that there's only so much breaking the back wheel can do. That's when I start switching to the front. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAPPzjUzgNqloQMwcRArPaAJ4veJNrLeOgLvfj3zmwx+bE0c+dMACdGljC RjugKT7WxO5TuKH05cSb9IE= =ZD92 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On 2004-02-25, Paul Johnson penned: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 02:16:32PM +0200, Micha Feigin wrote: As for down hill, I ride quite a bit of free ride, not so much downhill since unfortunately I don't have the money for the big hit bikes, but the steeper the terrain the more I use the front break since the rear wheel has almost no traction on steep terrain. Because you're leaning forward already! Yeah, I'm a bit confused by this rear wheel traction statement. When I'm going downhill, I move my body back on the bike -- afaik, this is why good bike saddles are quite narrow -- to allow you the freedom to move front to back as necessary. Depending on how steep it gets, my whole pelvis could be behind the saddle. (This is somewhat from memory, as I'm a big wuss when it comes to cold + biking and haven't biked in a few months.) -- monique -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On 2004-02-25, Paul Johnson penned: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 08:48:55AM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote: As a USian, I'm really confused by this description of turning. Could you please explain the term tangle turning? If you were to perform a tangle turn in the US, when you turn left, you cut around the vehicle turning left the other way, sort of a vehicular dosey-do. I've never seen this maneuver performed. I'm going to have to question your assertion that this is an American habit. It may, of course, exist in some regions ... -- monique -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
Monique Y. Herman wrote: On 2004-02-25, Paul Johnson penned: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 08:48:55AM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote: As a USian, I'm really confused by this description of turning. Could you please explain the term tangle turning? If you were to perform a tangle turn in the US, when you turn left, you cut around the vehicle turning left the other way, sort of a vehicular dosey-do. I've never seen this maneuver performed. I'm going to have to question your assertion that this is an American habit. It may, of course, exist in some regions ... actually i think this used to be reccommended behaviour at traffic lights, but doesn't seem to be the norm now :-( to do this, it needs some cooperation from the on-coming stream of traffic, aka intelligence :-) stephen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
Monique Y. Herman wrote: On 2004-02-25, Paul Johnson penned: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 08:48:55AM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote: As a USian, I'm really confused by this description of turning. Could you please explain the term tangle turning? If you were to perform a tangle turn in the US, when you turn left, you cut around the vehicle turning left the other way, sort of a vehicular dosey-do. I've never seen this maneuver performed. I'm going to have to question your assertion that this is an American habit. It may, of course, exist in some regions ... It's less common on city streets marked with lanes and such, and more common on divided highways (like rural 4-lanes, two each way) at cross-overs, where you need to get past the first lane[s] to the center crossover before turning left. In such a case, when two cars crossing over in preparation for turning left meet each other, it's natural to stay in your own lane until you're ready to turn left, at which time both cars are in the crossover next to each other, and there's no way to turn left without going behind the other car. If a driver does this often enough, it forms a habit, which then causes a problem when he goes to the city where that's not the habit for the other drivers he meets and the lane markings don't make it clear what the expected behavior is. -- Kent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 07:59:08PM +, stephen parkinson wrote: actually i think this used to be reccommended behaviour at traffic lights, but doesn't seem to be the norm now :-( to do this, it needs some cooperation from the on-coming stream of traffic, aka intelligence :-) The guidelines for bicyclists are posted at your DMV. For instance, in California: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs55thru57.htm#bike For left turns at 4-way itersections, 2 lanes in each direction: Bicyclist gets in center of left lane, goes in front of cars, goes to back to right side of right lane after turn. For straight ahead, bicyclist goes to left edge of right lane, and crosses over lane through the intersection, back to the right edge after. In both cases, cyclist blocks car's traffic. I used to wonder if the cops would give me a ticket for not obeying the bicycle rules in heavy traffic. Other day, I got my answer: I saw a cop pull over a guy on a bike. Fortunately I read the rules. In my car I'm still unclear what to do in this situation: === - ---CARS- = = XMe? Me?X = == - - = = |Me | | | When I'm waiting to turn left on a median, do I wait on the left edge or the right edge? Both are bad -- one way cars have to cross in front of you, the other way you block visibility for people turning left to the right of you. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Wednesday 25 February 2004 20:15, Monique Y. Herman wrote: On 2004-02-25, Paul Johnson penned: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 02:16:32PM +0200, Micha Feigin wrote: As for down hill, I ride quite a bit of free ride, not so much downhill since unfortunately I don't have the money for the big hit bikes, but the steeper the terrain the more I use the front break since the rear wheel has almost no traction on steep terrain. Because you're leaning forward already! Yeah, I'm a bit confused by this rear wheel traction statement. When I'm going downhill, I move my body back on the bike -- afaik, this is why good bike saddles are quite narrow -- to allow you the freedom to move front to back as necessary. Depending on how steep it gets, my whole pelvis could be behind the saddle. (This is somewhat from memory, as I'm a big wuss when it comes to cold + biking and haven't biked in a few months.) THe problem is not only one of weight distibution. Braking force is applied well below the centre of gravity by either wheel, so the resulting torque is in the same direction for both wheels - if you look from the side at a bike going left to right, the torque is clockwise. This means that the more the rear wheel tries to slow the bike, the more it is lifted off the pavement, reducing the available friction. So the power f the rear brake is self-limiting. The front brake on the other hand causes greater force to be applied to the pavement as it operates, increasing the braking effect -- and the tendency to cause rotation of the whole system (bike and rider) around the point of contact on the ground. It's not too difficult to work out the maximum breaking force that can be applied before you get thrown onto the road. -- richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 10:46:08PM +0100, Richard Lyons wrote: It's not too difficult to work out the maximum breaking force that can be applied before you get thrown onto the road. I believe it is 0.67g. Of course you can't achieve this with the rear wheel alone so by not using the front wheel you're sure not to flip over, but you're also getting much less deceleration. Bijan -- Bijan Soleymani [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.crasseux.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 01:00:10PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: When I'm waiting to turn left on a median, do I wait on the left edge or the right edge? Both are bad -- one way cars have to cross in front of you, the other way you block visibility for people turning left to the right of you. I called the DMV. The answer is left. Keep left when turning left, always. You'll block the view of people turning left where you just came from -- but that's correct. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 10:09:37AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 06:00:03PM +, Colin Watson wrote: It's a requirement in the UK Highway Code. While Paul decries it on safety grounds, the rationale is in fact that going around the other vehicle like this is safer because you can see oncoming traffic at all times, instead of having to nose out with the car turning across you blocking your view. Actually, it's not usually the car coming at you that's blocking the view of where you're going, it's the cornerpost next to the windshield... Recent updates of the Highway Code allow both alternatives; they point out that offside-to-offside (tangle) turning is safer for the reason Colin gives, but allow the driver to judge which method to use depending on the particular circumstances. There is a little diagram of each method; that for nearside-to-nearside illustrates the danger by including a cyclist coming up the inside of one of the turning vehicles, whom the driver of the other vehicle cannot see. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Wednesday 25 February 2004 23:04, Bijan Soleymani wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 10:46:08PM +0100, Richard Lyons wrote: It's not too difficult to work out the maximum breaking force that can be applied before you get thrown onto the road. I believe it is 0.67g. No, it is dependent on geomery. Of course you can't achieve this with the rear wheel alone so by not using the front wheel you're sure not to flip over, but you're also getting much less deceleration. Exactly. -- richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 05:04:26PM -0500, Bijan Soleymani wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 10:46:08PM +0100, Richard Lyons wrote: It's not too difficult to work out the maximum breaking force that can be applied before you get thrown onto the road. I believe it is 0.67g. Of course you can't achieve this with the rear wheel alone so by not using the front wheel you're sure not to flip over, but you're also getting much less deceleration. It's g tan theta, where theta is the angle between the vertical and a line drawn from the point where the wheel touches the road and the C of G of the (bike + rider). However, the available friction force between the tyre and the road places an upper limit on this, which will probably be something between 1 and 1.5 g depending on how sticky your tyres are. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 12:17:37PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote: On 2004-02-25, Paul Johnson penned: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 08:48:55AM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote: As a USian, I'm really confused by this description of turning. Could you please explain the term tangle turning? If you were to perform a tangle turn in the US, when you turn left, you cut around the vehicle turning left the other way, sort of a vehicular dosey-do. I've never seen this maneuver performed. I'm going to have to question your assertion that this is an American habit. It may, of course, exist in some regions ... No, I'm saying tangle turning is considered a really bad driving mistake in the US, though it's expected in the UK. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAPadiUzgNqloQMwcRArE5AKDNfGpCtlG6Rd8jhLqzG6miThBW0gCfdMkh xt29ifHi9gVxnFJ9B+1fCfo= =JbVf -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 10:29:39PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 07:39:13PM +, Pigeon wrote: It's a long time since I took my car test, and I had no problems with the emergency stop, but the examiner's instructions were ...without locking the wheels, so I'd guess any kind of lock would be a fail. Dunno what they do now that ABS is common. When I was learning to drive, I locked the brakes on my truck (at the time, it was my mom's truck). Only time I have ever seen the ABS light come on except when I'm starting the truck, too. I'll be damned if I could reproduce that. With the motorcycle test, the instructions are to stop the bike under control, and without hitting the examiner who has just jumped out in front of you. It seems that a minor lockup is permitted as long as you counteract it and keep the bike under control. What I never understood is locally they tell bicyclists that you stop faster locking the brakes and everybody else to absolutely avoid doing Its actually wrong also for bicycles. If you skid it takes a much longer time to stop. Another thing a lot of casual cyclists don't know is that you actually should stop mostly with the front brake (which is much much more effective). You just need to make sure to hold yourself in place with your hands not to go over the handlebar. You do that and you won't flip. so. Never mind that if you can stick a fast stop with good brakes, as hard as you can without locking the wheels, you stop way, way faster than skidding, especially going downhill...and I don't know anybody who enjoys the smell of burning rubber... Then again, the traction control doesn't work worth a damn either :) ...so you can still powerslide round roundabouts :-) I switch from four wheels to two in the snow and ice if I can. Nothing like sticking a wicked fishtail peelout going around the corner on a bicycle... -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 11:48:12AM -0500, Mike Dresser wrote: Then again, the traction control doesn't work worth a damn either :) I'd be surprised if that's the case. You can't expect too much from anything claiming to give you better control. You still have to have all the driving skill, the extra features usually only make it easier to control in a bad situation, not a guarantee that you're going to stick to the road. It's mostly that it's too sensitive. I believe the Corvette(same engine/powerplant) has two modes for traction control, one that allows you some wheel spin. If i want to take off at full throttle, I shouldn't have to shut the traction control off(button on the middle console), do my takeoff run, and then turn it back on. If i want to chirp the tires, then that should be my option. :) As it sits now, the tire(s) chirps, traction control comes on, cuts the throttle, and applies the brake the brake to the slipping tire, and kicks the accelerator pedal back up at me. Then about 2-3 seconds later, even while maintaining full throttle, it will reapply the gas. Repeat as necessary. It's mostly noticeable when I'm on the Blizzak snow tires, when I'm on the summer Firehawk SZ50ep's, wheel spin is _rare_. Yes, I'm a happy Firestone customer. :P Granted, traction control works REALLY nicely on snow and ice, and on hard cornering. :) Then again, I'm sure it's all software reprogrammable _somewhere_ And I'm just about at the age where I'll find myself too old to have fun driving anymore, so all will be moot. :P Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Pigeon wrote: It's a long time since I took my car test, and I had no problems with the emergency stop, but the examiner's instructions were ...without locking the wheels, so I'd guess any kind of lock would be a fail. Dunno what they do now that ABS is common. Does sound like your driving tests are much better than ours. I still don't understand how anyone can actually _fail_ one over here, but people occasionally do. To be expected. Most ABSes cut out at very low speeds. The Chevy Cavaliers of around 2001-2002 were the other way, and hyper sensitive. I've seen the ABS come on at 5kph at the end of a stop, completely removing any braking power, causing you to not be able to stop in time. And those can't be disabled, unlike most cars with traction control. I'd consider it a safety hazard. The 2003 LS we have here doesn't seem to do it, or not as bad. ...so you can still powerslide round roundabouts :-) What, roundabout's aren't skidpads? That's not how Car Driver does that? :) Actually, there's no roundabouts in my part of the country. I suspect there's not many roundabouts IN my country. :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 10:29:39PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: What I never understood is locally they tell bicyclists that you stop faster locking the brakes and everybody else to absolutely avoid doing so. Never mind that if you can stick a fast stop with good brakes, as hard as you can without locking the wheels, you stop way, way faster than skidding, especially going downhill...and I don't know anybody who enjoys the smell of burning rubber... Locking the real wheel is easy and won't give you much breaking. Locking the front wheel is not very fun :) as you tend to go flying over the handlebars. Basically the wheel's not spinning so you and the rest of the bike end up spinning over it. I believe the proper technique is to brake harder with the front brakes and apply enough pressure to the rear brakes so that you can feel when the rear wheel is just about to lift off. There is some information along these lines on: http://www.sheldonbrown.org/brakturn.html http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/9.17.html Bijan -- Bijan Soleymani [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.crasseux.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 10:29:39PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: I switch from four wheels to two in the snow and ice if I can. Nothing like sticking a wicked fishtail peelout going around the corner on a bicycle... You might want to check out the icebike mailing list. They have a website at: http://www.icebike.org Bijan -- Bijan Soleymani [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.crasseux.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On 2004-02-24, Micha Feigin penned: On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 10:29:39PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: What I never understood is locally they tell bicyclists that you stop faster locking the brakes and everybody else to absolutely avoid doing Its actually wrong also for bicycles. If you skid it takes a much longer time to stop. Another thing a lot of casual cyclists don't know is that you actually should stop mostly with the front brake (which is much much more effective). You just need to make sure to hold yourself in place with your hands not to go over the handlebar. You do that and you won't flip. Maybe you should take that opinion to alt.mountain-bike. When you have a good bike with strong brakes, you won't just throw yourself over the handlebars; you'll flip the whole damn bike, especially when you're going downhill. The recommended route is to use both brakes at the same time with as light a touch as possible. (After riding my MB for a few months, I visited my parents and took a spin on mom's bike (my old bike). I told dad that the brakes needed to be fixed, and he told me that, for a normal bike, they were actually great. I've just been spoiled by a comparatively expensive bike.) That being said, skidding is a bad idea while mountain biking for two reasons: one, you're out of control, and two, you're trashing the trail. -- monique -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 01:53:35PM +0200, Micha Feigin wrote: What I never understood is locally they tell bicyclists that you stop faster locking the brakes and everybody else to absolutely avoid doing Its actually wrong also for bicycles. If you skid it takes a much longer time to stop. Yes, I said that in my original article... Another thing a lot of casual cyclists don't know is that you actually should stop mostly with the front brake (which is much much more effective). You just need to make sure to hold yourself in place with your hands not to go over the handlebar. You do that and you won't flip. [big snip...] Oh, no moreargh. Please learn.to/quote - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAO40SUzgNqloQMwcRAvEPAKCbYxksLWevwDdmCAibY9UKTE8iHwCg0jpJ 80dpvGi96wWhg7yR2FTGrRk= =/dmi -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 08:53:43AM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote: Its actually wrong also for bicycles. If you skid it takes a much longer time to stop. Another thing a lot of casual cyclists don't know is that you actually should stop mostly with the front brake (which is much much more effective). You just need to make sure to hold yourself in place with your hands not to go over the handlebar. You do that and you won't flip. Maybe you should take that opinion to alt.mountain-bike. When you have a good bike with strong brakes, you won't just throw yourself over the handlebars; you'll flip the whole damn bike, especially when you're going downhill. Oh, I missed that the first time...got lost trying to find context in the poor quoting. That's hilarious! I ride pretty often, and I almost never use my front brake. Only if it's raining do I move to the front brake, and even then, I don't go more than 50/50 front/back. Go ahead and do an e-stop on only your front brake. Let me know how much farther you go than the bike. Hint: How do you think the guy launched himself off the mountain bike in that chocolate milk commercial? That being said, skidding is a bad idea while mountain biking for two reasons: one, you're out of control, and two, you're trashing the trail. Big time. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAO48QUzgNqloQMwcRAnraAJ9OBf7bHPKJ/kMz9aO85HO18kQWpQCeLX/j OLbcefMKoFReLcsIRBgg/Jg= =71dZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 10:42:44AM -0500, Bijan Soleymani wrote: I believe the proper technique is to brake harder with the front brakes and apply enough pressure to the rear brakes so that you can feel when the rear wheel is just about to lift off. Nope. The proper technique is to brake harder with the back and use the front for auxillary power, since then the force of you braking is being used to torque yourself down to the ground instead of torquing you over the bars. What you suggest is dangerously stupid and the source of a lot of bike/pedestrian collisions in Portland. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAO4+pUzgNqloQMwcRAmBFAJ9WETI2x4JHzQDADKVXx8XFkPB0LACgoGYS xlipM6Jt3o3ML5+wgrahrHE= =W5q4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 09:11:10AM -0500, Mike Dresser wrote: On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Pigeon wrote: It's a long time since I took my car test, and I had no problems with the emergency stop, but the examiner's instructions were ...without locking the wheels, so I'd guess any kind of lock would be a fail. Dunno what they do now that ABS is common. Does sound like your driving tests are much better than ours. I still don't understand how anyone can actually _fail_ one over here, but people occasionally do. And California even lets them drive anyway! Actually, there's no roundabouts in my part of the country. I suspect there's not many roundabouts IN my country. :) If we're talking US, it all depends on the city. They're common in and around Portland, OR. I'll warn you right now that there's a lot of roundabouts in Beaverton, and Beavertonians drive about as well as Californians. You can spot them because they're the ones going the wrong way around the roundabouts... - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAO5CRUzgNqloQMwcRApuZAJ9BBwXMHbTZR7Iw6G2wGoU9/DFzUgCcC289 lOvSi+k4AVPMa2jdYFn9ZAM= =jywb -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 09:53:45AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 10:42:44AM -0500, Bijan Soleymani wrote: I believe the proper technique is to brake harder with the front brakes and apply enough pressure to the rear brakes so that you can feel when the rear wheel is just about to lift off. Nope. The proper technique is to brake harder with the back and use the front for auxillary power, since then the force of you braking is being used to torque yourself down to the ground instead of torquing you over the bars. What you suggest is dangerously stupid and the source of a lot of bike/pedestrian collisions in Portland. We're talking about emergency breaking (making a panic stop). That's the way to stop in the least amount of time (using the front break most). This is not the safest way to break, but it's what you do in an emergency. Just like all these crazy car breaking techniques aren't what you use at each stop sign. Bijan -- Bijan Soleymani [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.crasseux.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 09:59:40AM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, your front brake does exert a bit more stopping power, due to the increased percentage of weight applied to the front wheel when stopping; this is why many low-end motorcycles come only with a single front disc brake. They also have more than the weight of the rider holding the bike down. And when I say bike, I mean bike. Not motorbike. That might be tripping some people up. Pulling an emergency stop solely with the front brake is doable; but if you have two, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to use both. Besides, endos hurt. ;) Exactly. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAO5LVUzgNqloQMwcRAh3dAJ9K0vjpOUVxwAehysE8QqQ8Zvat+ACfVoQW nq9S6FDfQVQcfeg2wl1OGP8= =qcly -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 09:53:45AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: what you suggest is dangerously stupid and the source of a lot of bike/pedestrian collisions in Portland. Actually the last time I pulled a panic stop like this was when a couple of kids jumped into the middle of the street and I needed to avoid hitting them. Bijan -- Bijan Soleymani [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.crasseux.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 01:06:10PM -0500, Bijan Soleymani wrote: We're talking about emergency breaking (making a panic stop). So am I. And people who end up trying the front-wheel hard stop usually are doing something they should be getting a ticket for their own safety for anyway (like riding on the sidewalk). That's the way to stop in the least amount of time (using the front break most). This is not the safest way to break, but it's what you do in an emergency. Just like all these crazy car breaking techniques aren't what you use at each stop sign. Well, if you're using antilock brakes, it's the same, just how hard you push the pedal. 8:o) - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAO5qEUzgNqloQMwcRAktDAJ9yJIIzNoZp2SRPhilfuWLBal17ZwCfQ86F KJ7kTU3GhMrjl4nG4i1iETU= =bQ6b -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Pigeon wrote: The UK's Highway Code calculates stopping distances from the equation: d = v + 0.05(v^2)(d in feet, v in mph) Scary numbers at my cars top speed of 160mph :) (Something like a quarter mile) Any equations for time? :P -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Pigeon wrote: Dunno what they do now that ABS is common. Do they still teach if you have a floor mounted automatic, to hit neutral during a panic stop? _big_ difference in stopping times at 30-40 mph and under. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 09:11:10AM -0500, Mike Dresser wrote: On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Pigeon wrote: It's a long time since I took my car test, and I had no problems with the emergency stop, but the examiner's instructions were ...without locking the wheels, so I'd guess any kind of lock would be a fail. Dunno what they do now that ABS is common. Does sound like your driving tests are much better than ours. I still don't understand how anyone can actually _fail_ one over here, but people occasionally do. Probably to do with the crowded conditions on UK roads... with something like a quarter of the US's population crammed into the area of one of the smaller states, most people of an age to drive a car own one, and an increasing tendency to use the car for any journey at all no matter how short, the test needs to be tough. And there are still plenty of dickheads on the roads... I think it was Bill Bryson who wrote that Most American drivers are crap, and they know it; most British drivers are crap, but they don't know it. To be expected. Most ABSes cut out at very low speeds. The Chevy Cavaliers of around 2001-2002 were the other way, and hyper sensitive. I've seen the ABS come on at 5kph at the end of a stop, completely removing any braking power, causing you to not be able to stop in time. And those can't be disabled, unlike most cars with traction control. I'd consider it a safety hazard. So would I... that's the problem for which having the ABS cut out at low speeds was the workaround. I'm surprised it was still going on as late as 2001-2002. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 10:42:44AM -0500, Bijan Soleymani wrote: On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 10:29:39PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: What I never understood is locally they tell bicyclists that you stop faster locking the brakes and everybody else to absolutely avoid doing so. Never mind that if you can stick a fast stop with good brakes, as hard as you can without locking the wheels, you stop way, way faster than skidding, especially going downhill...and I don't know anybody who enjoys the smell of burning rubber... Sounds daft to me, certainly... Locking the real wheel is easy and won't give you much breaking. (Interesting how the variant spelling of break for brake has gone out of fashion. Victorian writings on railway stopping devices seem to spell it break much more than brake.) Locking the front wheel is not very fun :) as you tend to go flying over the handlebars. Basically the wheel's not spinning so you and the rest of the bike end up spinning over it. On a motorcycle, with the C of G of the bike/rider combination being much lower overall, and the C of G of the rider being lower in relation to the handlebars, that tends not to happen. What does happen is that the front wheel flicks out sideways from underneath you, and you have to be pretty good to catch it. On a dry road, though, it's pretty hard to lock the front wheel. I believe the proper technique is to brake harder with the front brakes and apply enough pressure to the rear brakes so that you can feel when the rear wheel is just about to lift off. That is certainly true for motorcycles, especially on dry roads; as road surface conditions worsen, you apply less braking effort to the front wheel; you're stopping more slowly anyway, which lessens the so-called weight transfer, so you can apply proportionally more effort to the rear wheel. In any conditions you're biasing things in favour of locking the rear wheel rather than the front, because controlling a rear-wheel skid is easy, but controlling a front-wheel skid is much harder. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 08:14:30PM +, Pigeon wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 09:11:10AM -0500, Mike Dresser wrote: The Chevy Cavaliers of around 2001-2002 were the other way, and hyper sensitive. I've seen the ABS come on at 5kph at the end of a stop, completely removing any braking power, causing you to not be able to stop in time. And those can't be disabled, unlike most cars with traction control. I'd consider it a safety hazard. So would I... that's the problem for which having the ABS cut out at low speeds was the workaround. I'm surprised it was still going on as late as 2001-2002. That's just because most owners don't know the full GM title to the vehicle; the full name is 'Chevy Cavalier Attitude Towards Quality Control And Safety'. HTH. -- Don Werve [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Unix System Administrator) Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue, Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
* Mike Dresser ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040224 11:47]: On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Pigeon wrote: The UK's Highway Code calculates stopping distances from the equation: d = v + 0.05(v^2)(d in feet, v in mph) Scary numbers at my cars top speed of 160mph :) (Something like a quarter mile) Any equations for time? :P Based on that equation, it looks like they're figuring a = 20ft/s^2, or t = 0.05v (v in ft/s). 160 mph = (160)(1.467 ft/s) = 234.67 ft/s. So t = (0.05)(234.67) = 11-12 seconds. ...which is a plenty long for your life to flash before your eyes. good times, Vineet -- http://www.doorstop.net/ -- If Haydn had patented a symphony, characterised by that sound is produced [ in extended sonata form ], Mozart would have been in trouble. http://swpat.ffii.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 02:47:00PM -0500, Mike Dresser wrote: On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Pigeon wrote: The UK's Highway Code calculates stopping distances from the equation: d = v + 0.05(v^2)(d in feet, v in mph) Scary numbers at my cars top speed of 160mph :) (Something like a quarter mile) Any equations for time? :P t = (1 + 0.1v) * (3600/5280) -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 02:49:15PM -0500, Mike Dresser wrote: On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Pigeon wrote: Dunno what they do now that ABS is common. Do they still teach if you have a floor mounted automatic, to hit neutral during a panic stop? AFAIK they've never taught that... autos aren't very common over here, and they're even more uncommon as vehicles for taking the test, since if you take the test in an auto, you're not licensed to drive manuals. _big_ difference in stopping times at 30-40 mph and under. ...but possibly less so with a small, (relatively-)high-revving European-style engine, than with a big torquey low-revving V8? I'd have thought that at those kind of speeds, the big V8 won't be that much above tickover, whereas the little European engine will be doing some reasonable revs, and so when you take your foot off the throttle, the engine will rapidly decelerate to a speed where it's not providing any drive anyway. But then, I've never driven an auto for more than a few feet, so I'm a little uncertain. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 08:14:30PM +, Pigeon wrote: Probably to do with the crowded conditions on UK roads... with something like a quarter of the US's population crammed into the area of one of the smaller states, most people of an age to drive a car own one, and an increasing tendency to use the car for any journey at all no matter how short, the test needs to be tough. And there are still plenty of dickheads on the roads... I think it was Bill Bryson who wrote that Most American drivers are crap, and they know it; most British drivers are crap, but they don't know it. It doesn't help that you handle cross-traffic turns (left in the US, right in GB) by what Americans call tangle turning and is a major no-no on the west side of the pond...why hold fast to keep left when it's safer on a right turn at an intersection to keep right of oncoming traffic turning right the other direction while turning? It's understandable that there's a roundabout at major intersections, but to treat a standard intersection like one whether or not there's an island is a little nutty. To be expected. Most ABSes cut out at very low speeds. The Chevy Cavaliers of around 2001-2002 were the other way, and hyper sensitive. I've seen the ABS come on at 5kph at the end of a stop, completely removing any braking power, causing you to not be able to stop in time. And those can't be disabled, unlike most cars with traction control. I'd consider it a safety hazard. So would I... that's the problem for which having the ABS cut out at low speeds was the workaround. I'm surprised it was still going on as late as 2001-2002. Well, the Cavalier, at least on this side of the pond, is rarely seen in civilian colors, they're almost always a taxicab or a police car, and everybody gives both a wide berth to begin with. Unless we're talking stationary objects, what difference does 5km/h make? 8:o) - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAPEGaUzgNqloQMwcRAriuAJ4wsej5ckdpD6g99gkfLbYoNi0hBQCgrN55 h8o+B3sipBpSOeFEeqhojpE= =4DOj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Pigeon wrote: Yeah, I know... same here, despite the fact that an emergency stop is part of the UK driving test and locking the wheels is a fail. How much of a lock is a lock? My car has ABS, but in extreme situtations you can get it to slide a couple feet on dry pavement, and usually only at the very end of the stop. Then again, the traction control doesn't work worth a damn either :) Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 11:48:12AM -0500, Mike Dresser wrote: Then again, the traction control doesn't work worth a damn either :) I'd be surprised if that's the case. You can't expect too much from anything claiming to give you better control. You still have to have all the driving skill, the extra features usually only make it easier to control in a bad situation, not a guarantee that you're going to stick to the road. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAOjoNUzgNqloQMwcRAiHaAJ4toYTMv1uPqXH9UooZNEP05ANK3wCdGUVN kONqcl9lFD+HlVJellH1nOI= =F+91 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 11:48:12AM -0500, Mike Dresser wrote: On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Pigeon wrote: Yeah, I know... same here, despite the fact that an emergency stop is part of the UK driving test and locking the wheels is a fail. How much of a lock is a lock? It's a long time since I took my car test, and I had no problems with the emergency stop, but the examiner's instructions were ...without locking the wheels, so I'd guess any kind of lock would be a fail. Dunno what they do now that ABS is common. With the motorcycle test, the instructions are to stop the bike under control, and without hitting the examiner who has just jumped out in front of you. It seems that a minor lockup is permitted as long as you counteract it and keep the bike under control. My car has ABS, but in extreme situtations you can get it to slide a couple feet on dry pavement, and usually only at the very end of the stop. To be expected. Most ABSes cut out at very low speeds. Then again, the traction control doesn't work worth a damn either :) ...so you can still powerslide round roundabouts :-) -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Sun, Feb 22, 2004 at 02:23:38PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Sun, Feb 22, 2004 at 05:20:48PM +, stephen parkinson wrote: assume perfect driver, what is difference in stopping distance 30mph cf 35mph According to the ODOT Driver Manual[1], page 39 (in the PDF, 33 on printed page), you add another 80 feet to your stopping distance going from 30 to 40 MPH. I also learned that Oregon's speed limit silently raised from 65 to 70 MPH in this edition of the driver's manual... The UK's Highway Code calculates stopping distances from the equation: d = v + 0.05(v^2)(d in feet, v in mph) which gives an increase, from 30mph to 35mph, of 21 feet 3 inches - so the advert's claim is 3 inches short :-) It also gives you fudge factors of x2 for wet and x10 for icy conditions. Doesn't give you one for locking the wheels though... -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
Pigeon wrote: On Sun, Feb 22, 2004 at 02:23:38PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Sun, Feb 22, 2004 at 05:20:48PM +, stephen parkinson wrote: assume perfect driver, what is difference in stopping distance 30mph cf 35mph According to the ODOT Driver Manual[1], page 39 (in the PDF, 33 on printed page), you add another 80 feet to your stopping distance going from 30 to 40 MPH. I also learned that Oregon's speed limit silently raised from 65 to 70 MPH in this edition of the driver's manual... The UK's Highway Code calculates stopping distances from the equation: d = v + 0.05(v^2)(d in feet, v in mph) which gives an increase, from 30mph to 35mph, of 21 feet 3 inches - so the advert's claim is 3 inches short :-) It also gives you fudge factors of x2 for wet and x10 for icy conditions. Doesn't give you one for locking the wheels though... so basically 5 mph extra from 30mph will transfer the momentum involved in stopping over the next 20ft to some silly sod who got in the way. bags of skin just do not bounce very well, istr to recall my sister rolling quite a way from a milk float impact, but then she was ball shaped anyway at 9 yrs old she's not that shape now though :-) stephen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 07:39:13PM +, Pigeon wrote: It's a long time since I took my car test, and I had no problems with the emergency stop, but the examiner's instructions were ...without locking the wheels, so I'd guess any kind of lock would be a fail. Dunno what they do now that ABS is common. When I was learning to drive, I locked the brakes on my truck (at the time, it was my mom's truck). Only time I have ever seen the ABS light come on except when I'm starting the truck, too. I'll be damned if I could reproduce that. With the motorcycle test, the instructions are to stop the bike under control, and without hitting the examiner who has just jumped out in front of you. It seems that a minor lockup is permitted as long as you counteract it and keep the bike under control. What I never understood is locally they tell bicyclists that you stop faster locking the brakes and everybody else to absolutely avoid doing so. Never mind that if you can stick a fast stop with good brakes, as hard as you can without locking the wheels, you stop way, way faster than skidding, especially going downhill...and I don't know anybody who enjoys the smell of burning rubber... Then again, the traction control doesn't work worth a damn either :) ...so you can still powerslide round roundabouts :-) I switch from four wheels to two in the snow and ice if I can. Nothing like sticking a wicked fishtail peelout going around the corner on a bicycle... - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAOu9TUzgNqloQMwcRAqdUAKDhmTRjKibVi0oh1hJFmJG2CRtxhACgu/qY lxY0FUX2W5KwrAcxtFAS11I= =HpqB -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 07:22:10PM +, Pigeon wrote: On Sun, Feb 22, 2004 at 02:23:38PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Sun, Feb 22, 2004 at 05:20:48PM +, stephen parkinson wrote: assume perfect driver, what is difference in stopping distance 30mph cf 35mph According to the ODOT Driver Manual[1], page 39 (in the PDF, 33 on printed page), you add another 80 feet to your stopping distance going from 30 to 40 MPH. I also learned that Oregon's speed limit silently raised from 65 to 70 MPH in this edition of the driver's manual... The UK's Highway Code calculates stopping distances from the equation: d = v + 0.05(v^2)(d in feet, v in mph) which gives an increase, from 30mph to 35mph, of 21 feet 3 inches - so the advert's claim is 3 inches short :-) It also gives you fudge factors of x2 for wet and x10 for icy conditions. Doesn't give you one for locking the wheels though... Well, that explains ODOT's numbers. According to NOAA, 97% of the United States gets fewer cloudy days. And it takes a day or so for the wet roads to dry out in the lanes without sunlight, and we get more rain than Seattle. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAOvAiUzgNqloQMwcRAuDJAJwMxYQ4sgL1uiZOLgmkNjxjlvCMRQCgtsGy OOZYTB0FMI6cH+4so9VNhF4= =mVB/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
Pigeon wrote: On Sun, Feb 22, 2004 at 08:07:07AM +, stephen parkinson wrote: Nano Nano wrote: I'm a grown adult who in various small ways makes a conscious choice to violate certain laws, in a non-harmful way. This occurs at many levels in society (5 miles over the speed limit). The distinction is: DO YOU HARM ANYBODY. Dig? not until the following occurs.. current driving advert in the uk, suggests that travelling 5mph over the 30mph limit, moves your stopping point about 20ft on, and the kid doesn't bounce very well. That's a stupid advert. What it actually demonstrates is that the driver in the advert doesn't know how to brake in an emergency situation - the car slides to a halt with its front wheels locked. If the driver had avoided locking the wheels the car would have stopped in time. assume perfect driver, what is difference in stopping distance 30mph cf 35mph qed stephen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, Feb 22, 2004 at 04:43:33PM +, Pigeon wrote: That's a stupid advert. What it actually demonstrates is that the driver in the advert doesn't know how to brake in an emergency situation - the car slides to a halt with its front wheels locked. If the driver had avoided locking the wheels the car would have stopped in time. On the other hand, look how many people drive? Too many people fail to pump disc brakes and do pump antilocks. Or they drive a 4WD and don't realize that anti-lock brakes operate as disc brakes except when in 2WD. It's disappointing that it's simply not feasable to test people on what's in their car's owner's manual. It also demonstrates that you shouldn't run out into the road without looking, and that parents whose kids lack road sense should keep them under control near roads. This applies to trains as well, including narrow-track trains. Just because the tracks are (like many tourist and park railroads in the US) 2'6 instead of 4'8.5 apart only means that 10 cars and an engine weigh 300 tons instead of 900 tons or so, and still won't stop fast at any speed. And I can safely say firsthand that engineers don't like stopping two feet short of the 5-year-old you tried dragging against the signal across the tracks, who locked up staring into headlights anymore than you like watching it; you feel pretty sick for a couple days afterwards from the scare of nearly hitting someone you can't dodge. The flashing lights and bells apply to you even if you're walking, folks. /rant The reason for having such a massive muscle is clearly shown by the beautiful slow-motion shot of a pigeon, in the foreground, taking off almost vertically, and generating thrust on the upstroke as well as on the downstroke. Locally, the pigeons with any sense of urgency tend to use them to outrun light rail trains when the trains sneak up on them, flying only centimeters off the ground. Given they tend to do this near the light rail stations most, I'm surprised there's not more pedestrian/pigeon collisions. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAOSi3UzgNqloQMwcRAhnIAKCGle0EUHcG3vHs1kblBPongGDI/gCg4JFR xDUz53C2UzMOMPcELcvBfcI= =aQqH -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, Feb 22, 2004 at 05:20:48PM +, stephen parkinson wrote: assume perfect driver, what is difference in stopping distance 30mph cf 35mph According to the ODOT Driver Manual[1], page 39 (in the PDF, 33 on printed page), you add another 80 feet to your stopping distance going from 30 to 40 MPH. I also learned that Oregon's speed limit silently raised from 65 to 70 MPH in this edition of the driver's manual... [1] http://www.odot.state.or.us/forms/dmv/37.pdf - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAOSvqUzgNqloQMwcRAhsHAJ4zOQMq/dwvsbwk8t+Ja792SQUdvwCfeSpy KaUV0nh6FwMiUyMfoP+/H00= =vc3W -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
On Sun, Feb 22, 2004 at 02:09:59PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Sun, Feb 22, 2004 at 04:43:33PM +, Pigeon wrote: That's a stupid advert. What it actually demonstrates is that the driver in the advert doesn't know how to brake in an emergency situation - the car slides to a halt with its front wheels locked. If the driver had avoided locking the wheels the car would have stopped in time. On the other hand, look how many people drive? Too many people fail to pump disc brakes and do pump antilocks. Yeah, I know... same here, despite the fact that an emergency stop is part of the UK driving test and locking the wheels is a fail. Or they drive a 4WD and don't realize that anti-lock brakes operate as disc brakes except when in 2WD. Don't get me started on 4WD drivers :-) It's disappointing that it's simply not feasable to test people on what's in their car's owner's manual. The UK test does at least nod in that direction these days, though. It also demonstrates that you shouldn't run out into the road without looking, and that parents whose kids lack road sense should keep them under control near roads. This applies to trains as well, including narrow-track trains. Just because the tracks are (like many tourist and park railroads in the US) 2'6 instead of 4'8.5 apart only means that 10 cars and an engine weigh 300 tons instead of 900 tons or so, and still won't stop fast at any speed. And I can safely say firsthand that engineers don't like stopping two feet short of the 5-year-old you tried dragging against the signal across the tracks, who locked up staring into headlights anymore than you like watching it; you feel pretty sick for a couple days afterwards from the scare of nearly hitting someone you can't dodge. The flashing lights and bells apply to you even if you're walking, folks. /rant Argh, yes, I remember you told me about that... It amazes me somewhat that UK steam lines have such a good safety record, given the number of people who wander about in places they shouldn't. The reason for having such a massive muscle is clearly shown by the beautiful slow-motion shot of a pigeon, in the foreground, taking off almost vertically, and generating thrust on the upstroke as well as on the downstroke. Locally, the pigeons with any sense of urgency tend to use them to outrun light rail trains when the trains sneak up on them, flying only centimeters off the ground. Given they tend to do this near the light rail stations most, I'm surprised there's not more pedestrian/pigeon collisions. Pigeons - and birds in general - seem to be very good at avoiding collisions, except in the case where their ability to outfly almost any animal leads them to think they can outfly a speeding vehicle. Not always, though... one of my mates, walking down the street in a daydream, managed to swing his foot into an equally dozy pigeon, and propelled it into a girl's backside... she couldn't work out who had patted her rear. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Emergency braking and bird anatomy [was: Re: DVD copying and CSS]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 12:20:20AM +, Pigeon wrote: Or they drive a 4WD and don't realize that anti-lock brakes operate as disc brakes except when in 2WD. Don't get me started on 4WD drivers :-) I am one, and I know how to drive mine. Hint: When you buy a new vehicle, even if you think you know how it works, RTFM. Your equipment will last longer and you'll enjoy your vehicle more if you know how it all works. Pigeons - and birds in general - seem to be very good at avoiding collisions, except in the case where their ability to outfly almost any animal leads them to think they can outfly a speeding vehicle. Not always, though... one of my mates, walking down the street in a daydream, managed to swing his foot into an equally dozy pigeon, and propelled it into a girl's backside... she couldn't work out who had patted her rear. Reminds me of driving in the Columbia River Gorge a couple winters ago on the old highway, which is just two lanes wide and winds up and down the gorge wall between Portland and The Dalles. It was a snowy, icy night around 3AM and I didn't have chains (fun!), but I was broke and I was getting $300 from a friend who absolutely needed to get through. We stopped and got sodas at Multnomah Falls, out of a vending machine that dropped a cup with a barn owl feather pattern on it. A few miles up the road, in the center of the lane, was what looked like one of the cups lodged in the snow. Well, just as I got 40 feet from it, we discovered quite abruptly (we both yelled in surprise as I started pumping the brakes but still skidding a bit, didn't have antilock brakes, either, then) that it was an owl, which hit the top edge of the grill and landed on the trunk lid. Looking through the rear view mirror, the owl just sat for a minute scowling at us through the window before taking off on its own. I felt really bad about hitting the owl but glad that I didn't seem to do more than stun it for a ocuple minutes. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :http://ursine.ca/ `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian. Because it *must* work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAOVkXUzgNqloQMwcRAlwdAJ9Mjd3YScC4ykhBWDY6GttKDmlfZwCgkQmV MJOmitDqwjSCJTqoKaSm9xk= =7iu7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
