Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
[I hope I got the attributions correctly, as far as I can tell I'm only responding to John D. Hendrickson and Sara Darnell, not to berenger.morel@, from what appears to have been a private reply] Le 11.06.2014 08:41, John D. Hendrickson and Sara Darnell a écrit : NO. APT does not break packages as far as i know. point is. NO. aptitude is going fast. it is a long problem to solve !!! SEE BELOW for how to make it really fast !!! apt-get doesn't have a wishlist picker (see below) neither does dpkg, that is why they are faster. Err, what? how do i know? aptitude has a feature which tries to choose whish lists when there are multiple choice paths to try (some or all of which may not comprise the subset you need, it's complicated). I read the C++ code, and errors i've not heard of aside: it's picker is theoretically good. i wrote this debian tool(s) http://sourceforge.net/p/dep-trace/ it installs removes etc like apt-get and dpkg BUT also has a auto-chooser which asks user to make choice if necessary. (see the page ^^ it has new features i won't describe here). dep-trace goes faster (simpler resolver) but can't do wishlists like aptitude. dep-trace slower than dpkg round-trip install but designed to be far faster for given larger lists of pkgs. back to point. point is. NO. aptitude is going fast. it is a long problem to solve. !! TADA i got an answer that will make you speedier that you were in the 1990's !! reduce the size of your /var/lib/dpkg/available. HOW ? well just open the file and delete stuff and save ! ok. there are too many ways to choose how. back up before doing it. and don't delete any you'll need (ie, dependancies) As far as I know only dpkg and dselect use that file and if you really want to reduce its size one can use 'dpkg --clear-avail' :p Probably safer (from what?) to use --forget-old-unavail instead. obviously: don't install extra CD's you don't use (ie, non-free) they will bloat the available file. also: check /etc/apt/preferences (debian docs) about if there's an option to filter updates/paths of available packages. (if you don't have the file make aptitude export it, it won't unless asked). This makes no sense at all. See apt_preferences(5) for the purpose of that file. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Ahoj, Dňa Thu, 12 Jun 2014 13:18:21 +0300 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com napísal: reduce the size of your /var/lib/dpkg/available. HOW ? well just open the file and delete stuff and save ! ok. there are too many ways to choose how. back up before doing it. and don't delete any you'll need (ie, dependancies) As far as I know only dpkg and dselect use that file and if you really want to reduce its size one can use 'dpkg --clear-avail' :p Probably safer (from what?) to use --forget-old-unavail instead. LANG=C dpkg --forget-old-unavail dpkg: warning: obsolete '--forget-old-unavail' option; unavailable packages are automatically cleaned up (wrapped) regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Le 11.06.2014 08:41, John D. Hendrickson and Sara Darnell a écrit : berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 08.06.2014 17:10, The Wanderer a écrit : Maybe it's possible to configure aptitude so that it doesn't do that... but if so, I would think that configuration should be the default, because as things stand it seems almost worse than useless for anything but the simplest operations. Can't agree more about the aptitude's solver. That's why I **never** use it, I prefer to break packages, and then fix the system myself, through the curses interface. Since I am running a fairly minimal system ( in average 800-900 packages are installed on my computers ) it does not take ages, even if the aptitude's solver makes things very slow when something is broken ( it tries to find new solutions after every user action, even moving on next broken package ). I tried to go into it's source code, but I was not able to understand it's structure. At least I learn that, at a point in time, there was a Qt port, a Gtk port, and another one that I do not remember. But it's hard to find a point to start hacking it unfortunately. It have other defaults, for sure, for example since multiarch browsing packages is painful if you have more than one arch: every package corresponding to your pattern will be found as many times as the number of architectures you enabled. Another one is the CHANGELOG system, which only retrieves Debian's changelog, which is not really informative about what was changed in source code: lot of maintainer change, contributor added, etc. It is also impossible to select text from it to copy paste, and suffer various limitations when you are downloading/installing stuff: you can not then change state of packages, there is no possibility to install a package at the point where all it's dependencies has been downloaded, or better to unpack it while waiting ( in short: it is mono-threaded ), it can not install things in a different place than system's defaults ( unlike dpkg which is able to, so it's not a dpkg's limitation, and it would make it possible to manage distant computers by mounting their partitions through sshfs or whatever. Or why not, manage multiple computer at the same time, but this would be a lot more complex of course. ). And finally, it would be pretty nice if it had different colors depending on the version increase: major, minor, build. But no software is perfect, right? Apt-get can't do those things either, and I bet the same for synaptic. So I still prefer aptitude ( for it TUI, clearly ), and maybe in the future I'll have more motivation to enhance it than last time I tried ( but it's not even possible to find correct documentation about libpkg, IIRC, so I doubt it ). Or to prove another time that http://xkcd.com/927/ is so true :D However, about the solver, I have noticed ( when I was trying to hack it, I subscribed to the dedicated mailinglist ) that the idea of a multiple solver was there. With this feature, implementing a null solver, or whatever, would be possible. Our toys are not unmaintained. NO. APT does not break packages as far as i know. point is. NO. aptitude is going fast. it is a long problem to solve !!! SEE BELOW for how to make it really fast !!! apt-get doesn't have a wishlist picker (see below) neither does dpkg, that is why they are faster. how do i know? aptitude has a feature which tries to choose whish lists when there are multiple choice paths to try (some or all of which may not comprise the subset you need, it's complicated). I read the C++ code, and errors i've not heard of aside: it's picker is theoretically good. i wrote this debian tool(s) http://sourceforge.net/p/dep-trace/ it installs removes etc like apt-get and dpkg BUT also has a auto-chooser which asks user to make choice if necessary. (see the page ^^ it has new features i won't describe here). dep-trace goes faster (simpler resolver) but can't do wishlists like aptitude. dep-trace slower than dpkg round-trip install but designed to be far faster for given larger lists of pkgs. back to point. point is. NO. aptitude is going fast. it is a long problem to solve. !! TADA i got an answer that will make you speedier that you were in the 1990's !! reduce the size of your /var/lib/dpkg/available. HOW ? well just open the file and delete stuff and save ! ok. there are too many ways to choose how. back up before doing it. and don't delete any you'll need (ie, dependancies) obviously: don't install extra CD's you don't use (ie, non-free) they will bloat the available file. also: check /etc/apt/preferences (debian docs) about if there's an option to filter updates/paths of available packages. (if you don't have the file make aptitude export it, it won't unless asked). file is also made by delect(1) update available choice. obviously you need tools
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Le 08.06.2014 17:10, The Wanderer a écrit : Maybe it's possible to configure aptitude so that it doesn't do that... but if so, I would think that configuration should be the default, because as things stand it seems almost worse than useless for anything but the simplest operations. Can't agree more about the aptitude's solver. That's why I **never** use it, I prefer to break packages, and then fix the system myself, through the curses interface. Since I am running a fairly minimal system ( in average 800-900 packages are installed on my computers ) it does not take ages, even if the aptitude's solver makes things very slow when something is broken ( it tries to find new solutions after every user action, even moving on next broken package ). I tried to go into it's source code, but I was not able to understand it's structure. At least I learn that, at a point in time, there was a Qt port, a Gtk port, and another one that I do not remember. But it's hard to find a point to start hacking it unfortunately. It have other defaults, for sure, for example since multiarch browsing packages is painful if you have more than one arch: every package corresponding to your pattern will be found as many times as the number of architectures you enabled. Another one is the CHANGELOG system, which only retrieves Debian's changelog, which is not really informative about what was changed in source code: lot of maintainer change, contributor added, etc. It is also impossible to select text from it to copy paste, and suffer various limitations when you are downloading/installing stuff: you can not then change state of packages, there is no possibility to install a package at the point where all it's dependencies has been downloaded, or better to unpack it while waiting ( in short: it is mono-threaded ), it can not install things in a different place than system's defaults ( unlike dpkg which is able to, so it's not a dpkg's limitation, and it would make it possible to manage distant computers by mounting their partitions through sshfs or whatever. Or why not, manage multiple computer at the same time, but this would be a lot more complex of course. ). And finally, it would be pretty nice if it had different colors depending on the version increase: major, minor, build. But no software is perfect, right? Apt-get can't do those things either, and I bet the same for synaptic. So I still prefer aptitude ( for it TUI, clearly ), and maybe in the future I'll have more motivation to enhance it than last time I tried ( but it's not even possible to find correct documentation about libpkg, IIRC, so I doubt it ). Or to prove another time that http://xkcd.com/927/ is so true :D However, about the solver, I have noticed ( when I was trying to hack it, I subscribed to the dedicated mailinglist ) that the idea of a multiple solver was there. With this feature, implementing a null solver, or whatever, would be possible. Our toys are not unmaintained. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/38ac63140dbed92f846a0041b196b...@neutralite.org
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
08.06.2014, 15:10, Gour g...@atmarama.net: David Dušanić ivanovne...@gmail.com writes: I think you can also use aptitude on sid but I really prefer apt. So, you believe aptitude is no better than apt in resolve package deps (in Sid) ? It is my personal preference. I never understood aptitude good enough to use it so I never again touched it. That is just me. I find apt simpler to handle. -- David Dusanic -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1258531402302...@web14j.yandex.ru
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Lu, 09 iun 14, 08:35:44, Dalios wrote: # apt-get clean apt-get autoclean apt-get autoremove apt-get update apt-get upgrade apt-get dist-upgrade A few comments: - autoclean after clean is redundant - I don't think clearing your cache *before* the upgrade is such a good idea especially on testing (and really dangerous on sid). When (not if) something goes wrong you can still downgrade packages using dpkg, even if you network is down, system is unbootable, etc. Especially for testing and unstable (but even on stable it can't hurt) I would recommend the following [use the tool you feel more comfortable with, I'll use the new 'apt' command because it's shorter ;) ]: apt update apt upgrade apt dist-upgrade (be careful about the last one, because it is allowed to remove packages) checkrestart service daemon restart (restart also all other programs that don't have an init script) checkrestart is in package debian-goodies. Also make sure you reboot if the kernel was upgraded (you did have a look at the package lists, did you?). If everything seems to work fine: apt-get autoremove # apt doesn't do this yet apt-get autoclean For extra safety set APT::Clean-Installed to no, because otherwise apt will remove all packages that are not downloadable any more. While this happens all the time in testing/sid as package versions are superseded it will also happen if your last 'update' failed for some reason (e.g. network was down). Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Le 07.06.2014 11:58, Slavko a écrit : Ahoj, Dňa Sat, 7 Jun 2014 09:48:44 +0200 Thierry de Coulon tcou...@decoulon.ch napísal: Hello all, I've lived for years using synaptic and I am no so used to aptitude - and I don't want to make mistakes... Possibly my installation is now in such a state that I should reinstall, but everything *is* working. Anyway: - searching for broken packages gives 0 packages in synatiptic but 6 packages in aptitude. - marking upgradable packages causes both to want to remove lots of things (including parts of cups, Gimp, and of cours all my DE). - If I try to update with aptitude it gives me a liste of packages that should be removed because they are no more used, which is nonsense because most of them ARE in current use. I tried Synaptic some years ago and i decide to don't use it, mostly due style by which it works with dependencies (don't matter if Depends, Suggests or Recommends), where it wasn't marks installed dependencies as automatically installed, nor removes the packages which are not needed more (by other packages). You need to learn one thing - the A mark in the aptitude, eg (rest of lines removed): ilibpam0g-dev i A libpam0g ^^^ The highlighted A flag stand for automatically installed (as dependency of some other package) package. When all packages (which depends on automatically installed one) are removed (uninstalled), then the automatically installed package is removed too. Because Synaptic don't care about this dependency uninstall, then now you have a lot packages marked with A, but they seems as not needed any more – which can be false, as you can see in the gimp case (IMO by some meta-package uninstall). Don't afraid, simple go to the e.g. gimp line and press the + key (install) - it removes the A flag (and possible mark for update by the u flag). It takes osme work until you repair these dependencies relations, but it is safe - until you don't press the second g. To clean list of changes (the list before installation), you can simple more time switch back (q) and go (g). There can be useful the Cancel pending actions item in menu Actions, it unmarks all install/uninstall (perhaps the hold too) actions on all packages, but preserves the A flag, then you can continue play with A from the clean state. Finally, you can maintain the A flag by the M and/or m keys, which switch the A flag on/off. Hope this help you. Just an additional information. The first time I install aptitude, I uncheck the repair packages before installing or removing ( it's only a rough translation from French, the spelling is probably different ) so that aptitude does not repair when I go in preview mode ( the 1st 'g' ). This allows me to quickly notice what my actions are breaking, so I can decide myself which solution ( I never trust aptitude's ability to fix things for me, I'm faster to fix them myself ) I will use. And, since your system is in an intermediate state, I would like to give you one more shortcut: b allows you to jump to next broken package, so that you can be able to view why it is broken, and so enter it's dedicated view by hitting enter ( those actions can be made through the UI, I'm simply more accustomed to shortcuts ) to inspect it. As usual, using q will close the screen you are looking at. Last note: when there are packages broken with the actions you plan to do, aptitude is much slower in doing almost everything. It's normal, do not worry ( it tries to calculate new solutions each time you do something, even if it is not a new action to take ). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/90a5148ef998e1a6634f42f2602a1...@neutralite.org
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Le 08.06.2014 08:40, Thierry de Coulon a écrit : I guess no Debian package manager likes this mix of origins. I took a look at pinning, but there is no simple solution there either. I am quite used to play with lot of versions of softwares through aptitude, and never had real problems. Ah, wrong, I had one, recently: impossible to downgrade gcc. I had to use dpkg --force-something to do that. But it was a downgrade of a key part of the system, to tidy an installation that I made with lots of problems ( iso DVD of old testing, netinst of current stable, plus some packages of a cache from another computer which runs testing/unstable/experimental... see the mess? :) ). Now, things are clean and stable. If I had to achieve the same through pure command-line, I would not have made it, probably I would have reinstalled. Using a minimal system probably helped, as well as knowing exactly what packages I really need ( when my systems have more than 1000 packages, then I know that it's time to remove things ), which I learn by playing with aptitude, installing and removing lot of packgages ( databases, window managers, terminals, games... I really have installed and removed a lot of things, even mandatory packages sometimes. I like tinkering. ) I also have played with pinning in the past. I must admit, I agree with you, it not a very good solution, since you need to progressively add every dependency of the tool you want to upgrade, or automatical upgrades will fail. On my minimalist computers, it's not a problem, but with a big DE, I guess it must be painful. Note that apt* are able to freeze packages, which, combined with pinning give a real control on versions. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/7504370398710d44a77b50338e16f...@neutralite.org
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On 06/09/2014 11:45 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 09 iun 14, 08:35:44, Dalios wrote: # apt-get clean apt-get autoclean apt-get autoremove apt-get update apt-get upgrade apt-get dist-upgrade A few comments: - autoclean after clean is redundant - I don't think clearing your cache *before* the upgrade is such a good idea especially on testing (and really dangerous on sid). When (not if) something goes wrong you can still downgrade packages using dpkg, even if you network is down, system is unbootable, etc. Especially for testing and unstable (but even on stable it can't hurt) I would recommend the following [use the tool you feel more comfortable with, I'll use the new 'apt' command because it's shorter ;) ]: apt update apt upgrade apt dist-upgrade (be careful about the last one, because it is allowed to remove packages) checkrestart service daemon restart (restart also all other programs that don't have an init script) checkrestart is in package debian-goodies. Also make sure you reboot if the kernel was upgraded (you did have a look at the package lists, did you?). If everything seems to work fine: apt-get autoremove # apt doesn't do this yet apt-get autoclean For extra safety set APT::Clean-Installed to no, because otherwise apt will remove all packages that are not downloadable any more. While this happens all the time in testing/sid as package versions are superseded it will also happen if your last 'update' failed for some reason (e.g. network was down). Kind regards, Andrei Thank you for you useful comments. Never tried apt before so after your message I decided to research a little. Searching for info on apt is quite tricky as the web is full of pages on apt-get and aptitude etc. Searching for apt vs apt-get returned this reddit thread which is just a day old! http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/26q2sm/apt_vs_aptget/ I couldn't find a positive answer to my question so I post it here: Is apt the same as apt-get? In other words does it resolve the dependencies with the same or a different way? Interestingly the apt dist-upgrade is not included in apt's man page! There is the aptitude like full-upgrade. Both seem to be working though! Dalios -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5395a0ae.9000...@eumx.net
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Sat, Jun 07, 2014 at 11:10:02PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 07 June 2014 21:41:17 Slavko wrote: apt-get is quicker than aptitude and has (by the release note) The release notes have not been consistent about which they recommend for a particular upgrade. Both have been recommended on occasion. For the same release? The release notes are written for *each* release, and each different release has its own pecularities - therefore it is reccommended to read the release notes for the specific release they are written for. The recommendation for daily package management tasks could be completely different to the recommendation in the release notes for a major release upgrade (e.g. wheezy -- jessie). -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140609134037.GE3560@tal
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Lu, 09 iun 14, 13:19:33, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: I also have played with pinning in the past. I must admit, I agree with you, it not a very good solution, since you need to progressively add every dependency of the tool you want to upgrade, or automatical upgrades will fail. On my minimalist computers, it's not a problem, but with a big DE, I guess it must be painful. Note that apt* are able to freeze packages, which, combined with pinning give a real control on versions. Pinning is a very powerful mechanism, but quite often misunderstood and misused. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Monday 09 June 2014 14:40:37 Chris Bannister wrote: The release notes have not been consistent about which they recommend for a particular upgrade. Both have been recommended on occasion. For the same release? Of course not. The release notes are written for *each* release, and each different release has its own pecularities - therefore it is reccommended to read the release notes for the specific release they are written for. Yes. But it is not always aptitude or always apt. It can be either according to the notes. The recommendation for daily package management tasks could be completely different to the recommendation in the release notes for a major release upgrade (e.g. wheezy -- jessie). It often is. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201406091556.31234.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Lu, 09 iun 14, 14:55:26, Dalios wrote: Never tried apt before so after your message I decided to research a little. Searching for info on apt is quite tricky as the web is full of pages on apt-get and aptitude etc. Searching for apt vs apt-get returned this reddit thread which is just a day old! http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/26q2sm/apt_vs_aptget/ Well, apt 1.0 was released on 1 April, the web still has to catch up ;) I couldn't find a positive answer to my question so I post it here: Is apt the same as apt-get? In other words does it resolve the dependencies with the same or a different way? Both apt and apt-get are frontends to apt... hmm, let's try this again: APT (all caps) is the Advanced Packaging Tool, packaged in the apt source package, which compiles into the apt and libapt-pkg binary packages. The apt binary *package* contains several command-line tools that use libapt-pkg to do all the nice stuff we have been spoiled with in Debian. Apparently 'apt-get' was never meant to be a user tool, hence the introduction of the 'apt' *command*. Since 'apt' is a new command it doesn't have to be 100% backwards compatible with 'apt-get', therefore some of its commands have different names or behave slightly different than 'apt-get' (as per the DIFFERENCES TO APT-GET(8) section of apt(8)). However, both are using libapt-pkg and assuming you would pass all relevant options you should get identical results as with 'apt-get'. A note here regarding aptitude: while aptitude also uses libapt-pkg it also has it's own alternative dependency resolving algorithm, which is why you can get different results with aptitude (even if you account for the differences between 'upgrade' and 'safe-upgrade'). Interestingly the apt dist-upgrade is not included in apt's man page! There is the aptitude like full-upgrade. Both seem to be working though! As far as I can tell (I didn't read the code) 'apt full-upgrade' is the exact equivalent of 'apt-get dist-upgrade'. IMVHO the renaming makes sense as the command is needed from time to time on testing and unstable and in very rare cases also on stable, not only for upgrades between releases. The old name is probably accepted to ease the transition for 'apt-get' users. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 01:40:37 +1200 Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Sat, Jun 07, 2014 at 11:10:02PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 07 June 2014 21:41:17 Slavko wrote: apt-get is quicker than aptitude and has (by the release note) The release notes have not been consistent about which they recommend for a particular upgrade. Both have been recommended on occasion. For the same release? If you want to be picky, yes. The two use different holding mechanisms and the release notes recommend checking both systems (if aptitude is installed, it isn't by default) for any held packages. Only one is subsequently recommended for the upgrade, of course, and it hasn't always been the same one for the last few upgrades. Though an upgrade is normally done in at least two stages, so both could be used if desired. Probably not a great idea. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140609162618.145c0...@jretrading.com
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Sunday 08 June 2014 00.10:02 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 07 June 2014 21:41:17 Slavko wrote: apt-get is quicker than aptitude and has (by the release note) The release notes have not been consistent about which they recommend for a particular upgrade. Both have been recommended on occasion. I prefer aptitude because I know what I am doing with it (sort of) and because I don't have such a plethora of commands: apt-get, apt-cache, apt-file etc. to remember. But I use apt-x on occasion since it is no longer recommended that you should stick rigidly with only one of them. I strongly dislike Synaptic for almost every job. Each to his own. :-) That's one of the things I love about Debian and Linux. Lisi WIth apt-get you must know what to type, this is not easy if you don't use it frequently. Having looked nearer at aptitude, I will sure play with it on some seconcondary machine before typing g g on my main machine because if it removes over 700 packages and I overlooked something, I'd better have a backup (which I do have, actually :). Synaptic is easy to use and it does usually a good job at adding/removing stuff provided with the distribution, but it easily creates broken or problematic situation. My problem, as far as I can track it down, comes from a mix of (personnal) problems: - this was a clean wheezy install - I upgraded my machine to a haswell board, so I had to istall a backport kernel - I also wanted to try different database solutions that required newer libc6 versions, that I had to get from testing I guess no Debian package manager likes this mix of origins. I took a look at pinning, but there is no simple solution there either. Upgrading to a full Jessie might be a solution, but I use (and love, and am not about to change) Trinity Desktop as my DE, and there is no jessie support yet (I could not get the nightly builds to install compeletly). So the problem ultimately comes from a typical Debian problem, which is also one of Debian's plus points (I'm not ranting, it's a fact): Wheezy is a little more than one year old, but developpers didn't stop in 2013. Stable kernel is at 3.12 (longterm), new hardware is being build in our computers. Wether software requires the lastest libraries or the developper just used them I don't know (sometimes just linking the new libname to an an older lib works...). So what I discovered is: don't believe those that say just add this repository and pull that stuff from testing/unstable. While it *may* work, it ends up putting your system in a dead end. This being said, pure wheezy simply can't work on my machine (no graphics, no network, not even a hard disc...) so the only other choice is another distribution until Jessie becomes stable. I can't stand Ubuntu(s), but openSuSE ssems OK (even if i had a hell of a time getting gscan2pdf to work). Zypper and Yast have their problems too, anyway... Life would be boring if there where not the computers :)) Thierry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201406080840.05963.tcou...@decoulon.ch
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Thierry de Coulon tcou...@decoulon.ch writes: Hello Thierry. This being said, pure wheezy simply can't work on my machine (no graphics, no network, not even a hard disc...) so the only other choice is another distribution until Jessie becomes stable. I can't stand Ubuntu(s), but openSuSE ssems OK (even if i had a hell of a time getting gscan2pdf to work). Zypper and Yast have their problems too, anyway... I did start with SuSE in '99, then used Gentoo 5yrs and moved to Arch (5yrs), played a bit with Frugal and in the meantime did bunch of Ubuntu installations. Also had short affair with Free/PC-BSD. However, now I've settled on Debian (Sid) and must say that it brings me quite fresh software and is way more stable than all other distributions which I used in the past. (I do not perform 'apt-get upgrade' every day). As far as DEs are concerned I have some parts of Xfce installed (mostly to have Thunar for other family members), but, otherwise, i3 wm (http://i3wm.org/) with its multiple workspaces, statusbar, ability to launch specific apps on specific workspaces etc. is all I need desktop-wise. Disclaimer: Never used Trinity and KDE-0.9.x was last time when I played with KDE. ;) Sincerely, Gour -- A person is said to be elevated in yoga when, having renounced all material desires, he neither acts for sense gratification nor engages in fruitive activities. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87zjhn7tfm@atmarama.net
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Ahoj, Dňa Sat, 7 Jun 2014 23:10:02 +0100 Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com napísal: I prefer aptitude because I know what I am doing with it (sort of) and because I don't have such a plethora of commands: apt-get, apt-cache, apt-file etc. to remember. But I use apt-x on occasion since it is no longer recommended that you should stick rigidly with only one of them. I strongly dislike Synaptic for almost every job. Each to his own. :-) That's one of the things I love about Debian and Linux. Sure, here is today example (it comes from my Raspbian with recompiled packages from sid in my own repo): LANG=C apt-get upgrade Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following packages have been kept back: uwsgi uwsgi-core 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded. And now, why they are not upgraded?! Then i run aptitude and after some keypress is see, that there is one conflict with some co-package (cgi plugin) from old uwsgi version. regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Slavko li...@slavino.sk writes: Then i run aptitude and after some keypress is see, that there is one conflict with some co-package (cgi plugin) from old uwsgi version. I must say that I'm still quite noobie when it comes to package management on Debian mostly using apt-get/synaptic and I read/heard somewhere that for Sid those are recommended over aptitude? Do I miss something and/or what would be recommended procedure for apt-get/synaptic -- synaptic migration? Sincerely, Gour -- You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty. pgpfnnjOZKUY9.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Du, 08 iun 14, 12:27:04, Gour wrote: Slavko li...@slavino.sk writes: Then i run aptitude and after some keypress is see, that there is one conflict with some co-package (cgi plugin) from old uwsgi version. I must say that I'm still quite noobie when it comes to package management on Debian mostly using apt-get/synaptic and I read/heard somewhere that for Sid those are recommended over aptitude? Especially on sid aptitude (in interactive mode) can be very useful, but beware of #570377. Do I miss something and/or what would be recommended procedure for apt-get/synaptic -- synaptic migration? There is no procedure, just use which one you like/need/etc. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Sb, 07 iun 14, 09:48:44, Thierry de Coulon wrote: Hello all, I've lived for years using synaptic and I am no so used to aptitude - and I don't want to make mistakes... Possibly my installation is now in such a state that I should reinstall, but everything *is* working. Anyway: - searching for broken packages gives 0 packages in synatiptic but 6 packages in aptitude. Please post the output of aptitude search '?broken' - marking upgradable packages causes both to want to remove lots of things (including parts of cups, Gimp, and of cours all my DE). - If I try to update with aptitude it gives me a liste of packages that should be removed because they are no more used, which is nonsense because most of them ARE in current use. Apt/itude's definition of 'unused' is automatically installed (i.e. as dependencies), nothing depends on them (anymore). I am thinking all this comes from the fact that I installed Wheezy with Gnome, installed another DE, then removed *parts* of gnome, and the system is thinking because part of Gnome is missing, it should clean up and remove anything that needs it (the list of removal is long, but does include gftp and so). Yep. Whats more, the system seems not logical, as it wants to remove Gimp but complains that gimp-data (not to be removed) needs Gimp Any way to bring this mess in order? If you're new with aptitude this may be easier to sort out with apt. Try this: apt-get update # optional, but safe apt-get upgrade # safe, doesn't ever remove packages apt-get dist-upgrade # carefully check proposed removals When running these apt-get will tell you that some packages are no longer used and you should use 'autoremove' to get rid of them. Don't do that (just yet). Instead use apt-mark manual package to mark as manually installed any package you know you actually need. Don't bother with libraries or -data packages, because these should be kept as dependencies. When you're done try apt-get autoremove If you're still not satisfied with the outcome mark some more packages. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Ahoj, Dňa Sun, 08 Jun 2014 12:27:04 +0200 Gour g...@atmarama.net napísal: Slavko li...@slavino.sk writes: Then i run aptitude and after some keypress is see, that there is one conflict with some co-package (cgi plugin) from old uwsgi version. I must say that I'm still quite noobie when it comes to package management on Debian mostly using apt-get/synaptic and I read/heard somewhere that for Sid those are recommended over aptitude? I mention sid only because the uwsgi package is now not in testing and i recompiled it for Raspberry Pi with Rasbian stable, which is wheezy based distro for this small one-board computer. You can simply ignore the sid word in my post. Do I miss something and/or what would be recommended procedure for apt-get/synaptic -- synaptic migration? Using Synaptic seems to be safe (in mean of the original problem in this thread). Migration from apt-get/aptitude to Synaptic must be safe. The problem in opposite direction, i.e. from Synaptic to apt-get/aptitude, where Synaptic lack some functionality about the marking/removing the automatically installed packages. AFAIK, the functionality of the apt-get and aptitude is compatible in these days, with only one difference - the ncurses interface in aptitude. regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
08.06.2014, 12:27, Gour g...@atmarama.net: I must say that I'm still quite noobie when it comes to package management on Debian mostly using apt-get/synaptic and I read/heard somewhere that for Sid those are recommended over aptitude? Do I miss something and/or what would be recommended procedure for apt-get/synaptic -- synaptic migration? I think you can also use aptitude on sid but I really prefer apt. I do not have synaptic nor aptitude installed on my system. It is personal preference and of course how good you are into both of them. I think running sid is just a matter of how good you can drive the Debian package manager, be it aptitude or apt. But I would never use something graphical (synaptic) to make my upgrades. -- David Dusanic -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2139941402229...@web13m.yandex.ru
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Sunday 08 June 2014 12:55:26 Slavko wrote: Migration from apt-get/aptitude to Synaptic must be safe. The problem in opposite direction, i.e. from Synaptic to apt-get/aptitude, where Synaptic lack some functionality about the marking/removing the automatically installed packages. I have on occasion used Synaptic on the boxen I administrate for other people. I have then not infrequently switched into aptitude to sort out the problems that seemed to me to be an inevitable concomitant to using Synaptic. The one thing that I do like Synaptic for (though I would not install it specially for the purpose) is searching to see what software of a certain type is available. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201406081333.28372.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Sun, Jun 08, 2014 at 01:55:26PM +0200, Slavko wrote: AFAIK, the functionality of the apt-get and aptitude is compatible in these days, with only one difference - the ncurses interface in aptitude. And more human-readable logs in /var/log/aptitude. -- debil :wq -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140608123500.GA1248@canavanofcanmake.Noise
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com writes: Especially on sid aptitude (in interactive mode) can be very useful, but beware of #570377. Hmm.. There is no procedure, just use which one you like/need/etc. Iirc, one has to be careful when migrating from one tool to the other in order not to end up with many uninstalled packages? Otoh, I'm just investigating which tool is better handling dep chain, especially on Sid. Sincerely, Gour -- As a blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities. pgpIJIpCW9AKh.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Slavko li...@slavino.sk writes: You can simply ignore the sid word in my post. Ahh, OK. Good to know. ;) Using Synaptic seems to be safe (in mean of the original problem in this thread). Maybe I shoud read the whole thread... AFAIK, the functionality of the apt-get and aptitude is compatible in these days, with only one difference - the ncurses interface in aptitude. I do not mind the interface, just wondering which is more suitable for Sid considering that the dynamic of admin work is a bit different than when one uses stable distro? Sincerely, Gour -- When your intelligence has passed out of the dense forest of delusion, you shall become indifferent to all that has been heard and all that is to be heard. pgptfcVLoOU7x.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
David Dušanić ivanovne...@gmail.com writes: I think you can also use aptitude on sid but I really prefer apt. So, you believe aptitude is no better than apt in resolve package deps (in Sid) ? Sincerely, Gour -- In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87zjhnft2k@atmarama.net
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 15:04:17 +0200 Gour g...@atmarama.net wrote: I do not mind the interface, just wondering which is more suitable for Sid considering that the dynamic of admin work is a bit different than when one uses stable distro? I use synaptic and sometimes dselect (much more on stable). Synaptic manage conflicts very well, dselect doesn't. -- Adeline The Christians religious book is Bible. Axel Yeah, for Muslims it's Koran. Adeline And for Asians ? Axel Yellow Pages. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140608151508.4fd52297@anubis.defcon1
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
D.E. Bil kas...@gmail.com writes: And more human-readable logs in /var/log/aptitude. That's a good point. Thanks. Sincerely, Gour -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/874mzvh7qi@atmarama.net
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Du, 08 iun 14, 15:00:58, Gour wrote: Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com writes: Especially on sid aptitude (in interactive mode) can be very useful, but beware of #570377. Hmm.. I'm right now testing this in apt.conf // tweak Aptitude to not suggest removals as first option Aptitude::ProblemResolver::SolutionCost safety,removals; There is no procedure, just use which one you like/need/etc. Iirc, one has to be careful when migrating from one tool to the other in order not to end up with many uninstalled packages? None of the tools will do something you don't specifically approve, so just be careful what you agree to ;) Yes, there are probably still bugs when you switch between them, but mostly it should work fine. Otoh, I'm just investigating which tool is better handling dep chain, especially on Sid. Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you're worried about. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Du, 08 iun 14, 15:07:31, Gour wrote: David Dušanić ivanovne...@gmail.com writes: I think you can also use aptitude on sid but I really prefer apt. So, you believe aptitude is no better than apt in resolve package deps (in Sid) ? aptitude and apt have different resolvers. At some point in time aptitude's resolver has been considered superior, especially for upgrades between releases, but apt has improved in the meantime and it seems to be more... predictable. Specifically for sid I prefer aptitude in interactive mode (it's open all the time here in a screen session), because of the interactive resolver, the nice preview which you can interact with and the 'forbid-version' action (Shift-f in interactive mode). Also aptitude's search patterns are, as far as I can tell, unmatched in any of the other package managers. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Du, 08 iun 14, 14:19:26, David Dušanić wrote: I think running sid is just a matter of how good you can drive the Debian package manager, be it aptitude or apt. That's a fairly good description in my opinion :) But I would never use something graphical (synaptic) to make my upgrades. While I'm always running aptitude under GNU screen[1] I just can't recall the last time (if ever) I had X terminate due to an upgrade. [1] running apt or aptitude in a regular terminal emulator will not help if X terminates for some reason, you have to use a console or something like GNU screen. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Sat, Jun 07, 2014 at 09:57:39PM +0200, Jochen Spieker wrote: Thierry de Coulon: I've lived for years using synaptic and I am no so used to aptitude - and I don't want to make mistakes... In addition to the good advice regarding automatically installed packages that has already been given I have one question: why do you want to use aptitude? I used aptitude for a few years but switched back to apt-get after the Release Notes of a release recommended to use apt-get for distribution upgrades, not aptitude. I have a lot less trouble now. Actually 'apt-get' is recommended for major upgrades as in distro upgrades, but for day to day package mgmt, aptitude is still the recommended tool. FWIW I use both, aptitude has more options. Never used ncurses aptitude though, can't stand it. For someone just starting out with aptitude, I'd recommend they install the aptitude-doc package relevant to their language. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140608150328.GB7599@Jessie
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 06/08/2014 11:03 AM, Stephen Allen wrote: On Sat, Jun 07, 2014 at 09:57:39PM +0200, Jochen Spieker wrote: Thierry de Coulon: I've lived for years using synaptic and I am no so used to aptitude - and I don't want to make mistakes... In addition to the good advice regarding automatically installed packages that has already been given I have one question: why do you want to use aptitude? I used aptitude for a few years but switched back to apt-get after the Release Notes of a release recommended to use apt-get for distribution upgrades, not aptitude. I have a lot less trouble now. Actually 'apt-get' is recommended for major upgrades as in distro upgrades, but for day to day package mgmt, aptitude is still the recommended tool. FWIW I use both, aptitude has more options. Never used ncurses aptitude though, can't stand it. Likewise FWIW, I invariably use apt-get, because aptitude routinely recommends dependency-resolution solutions which involve not doing anything like what I requested - and indeed often involve removing the very package I requested to be installed - whereas I've never seen any such thing with apt-get. apt-get may be less controllable and less smart than aptitude, but it still seems to get things right on the first try most of the time, whereas in my experience aptitude rarely seems to get things right even by the 20th try - or, in the few cases where I've bothered to keep saying no, try to come up with some other solution that far, the 200th. Maybe my experience with aptitude is atypical - but it's been consistent across three computers now, over the course of something like a decade, give or take. If anything, it's gotten worse in more recent years. Maybeit's possible to configure aptitude so that it doesn't do that... but if so, I would think that configuration should be the default, because as things stand it seems almost worse than useless for anything but the simplest operations. - -- The Wanderer Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny. A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJTlHz5AAoJEASpNY00KDJrVqwP/0p1MpVhAjN5robHfX9IaYpI apid3txRBcb4XhJXZIJjkqdxVAXWtCxO8ZiLdyMoByPY62pe06Y03ECKT7JRKzuB 076KU4TOmOEnANQ2lrrSNMqQOnZC/otavkMeL45vNgxUDsDAJ8UYm5tUDWFpcqFf uKwcXJBKCm55yDdlt+rAZTXlHC8NKD3XiINXJfMUm6oyUzfyroUHYMQBXUw6qLbz ApPDvex+5LrDiIGUDO0MSarGjkjdWjljoZkpW2EIyF0Sw3l3310Ax1W1zKmGM6uA 8xWH6C4Jf3LO5I7DYaRlAw1Now0IHHh+uG8ETpIzwQSGpoUVqFf4SbEUx8EQ0oBs OLUsRAc9/hsQOu0+LBBKU/VT/zB+ssjLVLT0ikNINdjS2RO9ChxS46r66GZsGW/3 wugPcRJamxGtpyZC0zvjsNXzOUTQHXTXSLXbnUCk4gTDZvJODjx2R5LzaF7D7YRR ZYCWwYNi/I3F1Addg8RkRxB4B5OSqD4a0EgzzBmmyPUn9HSKBw5oNjaDGz1JM4hE SKG1AKFwpYFgvnp2uqwFcL89Xwf6cLbP6p6l3Drb17eA8l3B6MH4RdOgj5rllf6I +OjxEJz16f/XQsL2BCmUQ1NPgh87LU7XhjzryNiYKmTcY2E9b7TzmTLR1W/TDXu1 CbV9I2jpzDwK/Wx8+S11 =J51P -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53947cf9.1000...@fastmail.fm
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 13:33:28 +0100 Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 08 June 2014 12:55:26 Slavko wrote: Migration from apt-get/aptitude to Synaptic must be safe. The problem in opposite direction, i.e. from Synaptic to apt-get/aptitude, where Synaptic lack some functionality about the marking/removing the automatically installed packages. I have on occasion used Synaptic on the boxen I administrate for other people. I have then not infrequently switched into aptitude to sort out the problems that seemed to me to be an inevitable concomitant to using Synaptic. The one thing that I do like Synaptic for (though I would not install it specially for the purpose) is searching to see what software of a certain type is available. Oddly, I do it the other way around. I use aptitude from the command line for routine upgrades, and when it gets messy (I have four sid installations) I switch to Synaptic. I've never really got good with interactive aptitude, I've tried a few times but there's something about it I find completely unintuitive, so I'm much quicker at finding workable upgrade combinations with Synaptic. Having said that, with sid it's usually best to let a problem simmer for a few days, many problems are the result of an incomplete upgrade set, and usually fix themselves. And I've also occasionally found that upgrading in stages, each time doing the ones that will work without removing anything, can completely clear a problem for which aptitude has offered to remove half my system. When I have declined this option in a full-upgrade, aptitude has usually sulked and said in that case it will just leave everything as it is, so there... On the subject of mixing tools, I think there can be trouble if you try holding and pinning different things with different tools, that aptitude and apt-get/dpkg use different meta-data for this. I don't do much of it, so I've always used whichever tool seemed best at the time. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140608234229.3a2c8...@jretrading.com
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Slavko: Sure, here is today example (it comes from my Raspbian with recompiled packages from sid in my own repo): LANG=C apt-get upgrade Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following packages have been kept back: uwsgi uwsgi-core 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded. And now, why they are not upgraded?! Then i run aptitude and after some keypress is see, that there is one conflict with some co-package (cgi plugin) from old uwsgi version. You can just run 'apt-get intsall uwsgi' and then apt-get informs you of the reason why uwsgi cannot be installed. But I agree that this kind of interactive use is one of aptitude's biggest strengths. J. -- I have never been happier than I am now; a fact which depresses me immensely. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On 06/08/2014 06:10 PM, The Wanderer wrote: Likewise FWIW, I invariably use apt-get, because aptitude routinely recommends dependency-resolution solutions which involve not doing anything like what I requested - and indeed often involve removing the very package I requested to be installed - whereas I've never seen any such thing with apt-get. apt-get may be less controllable and less smart than aptitude, but it still seems to get things right on the first try most of the time, whereas in my experience aptitude rarely seems to get things right even by the 20th try - or, in the few cases where I've bothered to keep saying no, try to come up with some other solution that far, the 200th. Maybe my experience with aptitude is atypical - but it's been consistent across three computers now, over the course of something like a decade, give or take. If anything, it's gotten worse in more recent years. Maybeit's possible to configure aptitude so that it doesn't do that... but if so, I would think that configuration should be the default, because as things stand it seems almost worse than useless for anything but the simplest operations. - -- The Wanderer And I thought that it was that kind of problem only for us less skilled users. In my (newbie) point of view: On my Stable system: I use aptitude but it doesn't really matter because the updates are quite few and easy. On my Testing system: I used aptitude and the moment it started proposing weird stuff I answered no and used apt-get. After a few months I started using only apt-get. In fact every day I only run the command: # apt-get clean apt-get autoclean apt-get autoremove apt-get update apt-get upgrade apt-get dist-upgrade to have my testing updated. Once in a while I meet some packages which apt-get says they are being kept back where I use aptitude or maybe apt-get install -f. Dalios -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/539547b0.3030...@eumx.net
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Sat, 7 Jun 2014 09:48:44 +0200 Thierry de Coulon tcou...@decoulon.ch wrote: Hello all, I've lived for years using synaptic and I am no so used to aptitude - and I don't want to make mistakes... Possibly my installation is now in such a state that I should reinstall, but everything *is* working. Anyway: - searching for broken packages gives 0 packages in synatiptic but 6 packages in aptitude. - marking upgradable packages causes both to want to remove lots of things (including parts of cups, Gimp, and of cours all my DE). - If I try to update with aptitude it gives me a liste of packages that should be removed because they are no more used, which is nonsense because most of them ARE in current use. I am thinking all this comes from the fact that I installed Wheezy with Gnome, installed another DE, then removed *parts* of gnome, and the system is thinking because part of Gnome is missing, it should clean up and remove anything that needs it (the list of removal is long, but does include gftp and so). Whats more, the system seems not logical, as it wants to remove Gimp but complains that gimp-data (not to be removed) needs Gimp Any way to bring this mess in order? I'd try aptitude full-upgrade first. That will give you a list of proposals. If you don't like them, say no, and like Groucho Marx, it will give you another set, and so on. If you give up first, use 'q' to abort. If you can't reach an amicable arrangement with aptitude, it should at least have offered an insight into where the real problem lies. Another approach is apt-get -f install, which will offer you a list of proposed actions which you can decline. apt-get is a little less subtle than aptitude, and may cut to the root of the problem more quickly, if brutally. Another strategy which I find useful on sid, which probably is less use on wheezy, is to let Synaptic do everything it can without allowing it to remove anything, then reload and try again. Sometimes the order in which things are done makes the difference between working and not working. Don't forget you can rip out quite large chunks of non-system stuff and immediately reinstall (usually), which should bring in the right dependencies. I don't believe anything should ever be uninstallable on stable, unlike unstable sometimes. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140607091232.2b871...@jretrading.com
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Ahoj, Dňa Sat, 7 Jun 2014 09:48:44 +0200 Thierry de Coulon tcou...@decoulon.ch napísal: Hello all, I've lived for years using synaptic and I am no so used to aptitude - and I don't want to make mistakes... Possibly my installation is now in such a state that I should reinstall, but everything *is* working. Anyway: - searching for broken packages gives 0 packages in synatiptic but 6 packages in aptitude. - marking upgradable packages causes both to want to remove lots of things (including parts of cups, Gimp, and of cours all my DE). - If I try to update with aptitude it gives me a liste of packages that should be removed because they are no more used, which is nonsense because most of them ARE in current use. I tried Synaptic some years ago and i decide to don't use it, mostly due style by which it works with dependencies (don't matter if Depends, Suggests or Recommends), where it wasn't marks installed dependencies as automatically installed, nor removes the packages which are not needed more (by other packages). You need to learn one thing - the A mark in the aptitude, eg (rest of lines removed): ilibpam0g-dev i A libpam0g ^^^ The highlighted A flag stand for automatically installed (as dependency of some other package) package. When all packages (which depends on automatically installed one) are removed (uninstalled), then the automatically installed package is removed too. Because Synaptic don't care about this dependency uninstall, then now you have a lot packages marked with A, but they seems as not needed any more – which can be false, as you can see in the gimp case (IMO by some meta-package uninstall). Don't afraid, simple go to the e.g. gimp line and press the + key (install) - it removes the A flag (and possible mark for update by the u flag). It takes osme work until you repair these dependencies relations, but it is safe - until you don't press the second g. To clean list of changes (the list before installation), you can simple more time switch back (q) and go (g). There can be useful the Cancel pending actions item in menu Actions, it unmarks all install/uninstall (perhaps the hold too) actions on all packages, but preserves the A flag, then you can continue play with A from the clean state. Finally, you can maintain the A flag by the M and/or m keys, which switch the A flag on/off. Hope this help you. -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
07.06.2014, 09:48, Thierry de Coulon tcou...@decoulon.ch: Hello all, I've lived for years using synaptic and I am no so used to aptitude - and I don't want to make mistakes... Possibly my installation is now in such a state that I should reinstall, but everything *is* working. Anyway: - searching for broken packages gives 0 packages in synatiptic but 6 packages in aptitude. - marking upgradable packages causes both to want to remove lots of things (including parts of cups, Gimp, and of cours all my DE). - If I try to update with aptitude it gives me a liste of packages that should be removed because they are no more used, which is nonsense because most of them ARE in current use. I am thinking all this comes from the fact that I installed Wheezy with Gnome, installed another DE, then removed *parts* of gnome, and the system is thinking because part of Gnome is missing, it should clean up and remove anything that needs it (the list of removal is long, but does include gftp and so). Whats more, the system seems not logical, as it wants to remove Gimp but complains that gimp-data (not to be removed) needs Gimp Any way to bring this mess in order? Thierry Sounds like many meta packages. That is why aptitude wants to remove a lot of your stuff. Now I have no easy answer to this. I only use apt, specifically because of what you describe, though they same can happen with apt if you do an autoremove. How about trying to update/upgrade your system with apt? -- David Dusanic -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1605021402136...@web2g.yandex.ru
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Saturday 07 June 2014 11.58:41 Slavko wrote: Ahoj, (...) You need to learn one thing - the A mark in the aptitude, eg (rest of lines removed): ilibpam0g-dev i A libpam0g ^^^ (...) Hope this help you. Thanks Slavko. I'm not sure I got everything, but it shows the way to go: learn using aptitude. I'll do that and mybe return to you if I don't get it working. Thierry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201406071222.04417.tcou...@decoulon.ch
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Ahoj, Dňa Sat, 7 Jun 2014 12:22:04 +0200 Thierry de Coulon tcou...@decoulon.ch napísal: Thanks Slavko. I'm not sure I got everything, but it shows the way to go: learn using aptitude. Don't worry. If you uninstall something, you can always install it back (remember the + key?) :) Aptitude is simple and straightforward, for basic usage these keyboard shortcuts are needed only: - + (install), - - (uninstall), - _ (uninstall and purge), - m/M (mark/unmark auto) - q (close view) - g (process - needed twice to real process). All other things you will discovery over time. I'll do that and mybe return to you if I don't get it working. No problem, simple ask here. I or someone other will help you. regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
A step before that maybe, to take further what Slavko proposed, to sort out packages which are dependencies or recommendations of other packages which are not marked automatically installed. The aptitude command-line search can help here: $ aptitude search '~i!~M(~R~i|~Rrecommends:~i)' will show any installed packages that aren't auto which are dependencies or recommendations of other packages. From this list you should mark anything you don't care about as automatically installed (aptitude markauto ...). This will help the update process a lot. Be aware though that circular depends/recommends prevents all packages in that list to be marked auto. -- Regards, jvp. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/lmv50q$7ja$1...@ger.gmane.org
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Thierry de Coulon: I've lived for years using synaptic and I am no so used to aptitude - and I don't want to make mistakes... In addition to the good advice regarding automatically installed packages that has already been given I have one question: why do you want to use aptitude? I used aptitude for a few years but switched back to apt-get after the Release Notes of a release recommended to use apt-get for distribution upgrades, not aptitude. I have a lot less trouble now. J. -- Television advertisements are the apothesis of twentieth century culture. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
Ahoj, Dňa Sat, 7 Jun 2014 21:57:39 +0200 Jochen Spieker m...@well-adjusted.de napísal: Thierry de Coulon: I've lived for years using synaptic and I am no so used to aptitude - and I don't want to make mistakes... In addition to the good advice regarding automatically installed packages that has already been given I have one question: why do you want to use aptitude? I used aptitude for a few years but switched back to apt-get after the Release Notes of a release recommended to use apt-get for distribution upgrades, not aptitude. I have a lot less trouble now. I know that you don't ask me, but i provide my point of view: * apt-get is quicker than aptitude and has (by the release note) better dependency solver for dist-upgrade (but how often i do dist-upgrade?) * aptitude provides the nice UI, which allow me to inspect some details (descriptions, changelogs, etc) and then i can better choose whoch from recommends/suggests dependencies i need to install/uninstall (some from them i want and some no) Then, aptitude is my choice mostly due UI. Although i can do all basic operations with both tools, to achieve the same things with apt-get i need run it more times. Inspect cca 50 daily upgrades on testing by apt-get sounds for me as horrible job. But you are right, to simple install some individual package, the apt-get is much quicker. And finally, i switch to aptitude in time, when the release notes suggests aptitude (i forgot exact codename) and i will stay on it until it will works for me. regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Package system totaly a complete mess
On Saturday 07 June 2014 21:41:17 Slavko wrote: apt-get is quicker than aptitude and has (by the release note) The release notes have not been consistent about which they recommend for a particular upgrade. Both have been recommended on occasion. I prefer aptitude because I know what I am doing with it (sort of) and because I don't have such a plethora of commands: apt-get, apt-cache, apt-file etc. to remember. But I use apt-x on occasion since it is no longer recommended that you should stick rigidly with only one of them. I strongly dislike Synaptic for almost every job. Each to his own. :-) That's one of the things I love about Debian and Linux. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201406072310.02377.lisi.re...@gmail.com
