Re: Would discussion of improving sysv-init be on topic?
* On 2014 15 Oct 19:39 -0500, Joel Rees wrote: systemd's problems would best be discussed at the systemd project. (Modulo the willingness of the devs over there to discuss them.) What I'm thinking is to talk about specific features to enable the sort of managing services that systemd seems to be aimed at, and how to implement them, where existing alternatives exist and how well they work, With enough discussion, we might be able to get enough mass to get a project started and get it (mostly) off-list. Perhaps you are not aware of the development project for sysvinit that already exists: http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/sysvinit That would be a far better place to get involved. - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141016123311.ge3...@n0nb.us
Re: Would discussion of improving sysv-init be on topic?
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Nate Bargmann n...@n0nb.us wrote: * On 2014 15 Oct 19:39 -0500, Joel Rees wrote: systemd's problems would best be discussed at the systemd project. (Modulo the willingness of the devs over there to discuss them.) What I'm thinking is to talk about specific features to enable the sort of managing services that systemd seems to be aimed at, and how to implement them, where existing alternatives exist and how well they work, With enough discussion, we might be able to get enough mass to get a project started and get it (mostly) off-list. Perhaps you are not aware of the development project for sysvinit that already exists: http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/sysvinit That would be a far better place to get involved. Would that be debian's sysv-init? -- Joel Rees Be careful when you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart, and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy. Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iOPHp9172PXkvJENUqr=lph7+15wgmelz3cdosp-fh...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Would discussion of improving sysv-init be on topic?
* On 2014 16 Oct 07:54 -0500, Joel Rees wrote: Would that be debian's sysv-init? That link is from the sysvinit-core package's description in Sid's Aptitude. Presumably it is the upstream project. - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141016125746.gf3...@n0nb.us
Re: Would discussion of improving sysv-init be on topic?
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:57 PM, Nate Bargmann n...@n0nb.us wrote: * On 2014 16 Oct 07:54 -0500, Joel Rees wrote: Would that be debian's sysv-init? That link is from the sysvinit-core package's description in Sid's Aptitude. Presumably it is the upstream project. Thank you. I was under the impression that there wasn't really an upstream for sysvinit. -- Joel Rees Be careful when you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart, and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy. Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iM84z+iV9+hx1xVvkyQaGzMbsXTyidefYM=xyd_+6q...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Would discussion of improving sysv-init be on topic?
On Thu, 16 Oct 2014 21:52:58 +0900 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Nate Bargmann n...@n0nb.us wrote: * On 2014 15 Oct 19:39 -0500, Joel Rees wrote: systemd's problems would best be discussed at the systemd project. (Modulo the willingness of the devs over there to discuss them.) What I'm thinking is to talk about specific features to enable the sort of managing services that systemd seems to be aimed at, and how to implement them, where existing alternatives exist and how well they work, With enough discussion, we might be able to get enough mass to get a project started and get it (mostly) off-list. Perhaps you are not aware of the development project for sysvinit that already exists: http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/sysvinit That would be a far better place to get involved. Would that be debian's sysv-init? With everything I've learned during the systemd fiasco, if I were to choose Debian's sysv-init, it would be nosh or something very much like it. And, as far as I know, it's ready to go, and our only involvement would be building replacements for formerly available software that was replaced by systemd-welded substitutes. After Jonathan de Boyne Pollard revealing post from yesterday (Wednesday, 10/15/2014), we could write some stupid-simple utilities to individually do all the stuff that logind does, probably using sudoers. Which means a big part of the task would be documentation, and I can do that. Of course, we'd need to write substitutes for the other 3 major welded and subsumed daemons, and some other stuff, but from what Jonathan said, logind is the challenging one. IMHO we should spend absolutely no time or energy making this stuff pretty, or even GUI if it presents challenges. If I'm guessing right about the situation, people who want pretty wouldn't have a problem with monolithic entanglement and vendor lock-in, just as long as they didn't have to pay money for their OS. As a matter of fact, regardless of what the DDs do, it just might be true that making either a systemd-free or systemd-neutered Debian might be mainly a documentation problem, and I'm pretty good at documentation. Who wants to join me? It's your chance to make Red-Hat *really* hate you. And make a lot of Debian users and other Linux people love you. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141016112850.36018...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Would discussion of improving sysv-init be on topic?
On Thu, 16 Oct 2014 11:28:50 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: POINT OF CLARIFICATION: Nothing written below is nosh specific. It could be used with nosh, or upstart, or sysvinit, or any other PID1 that's *only* a PID1. So how about it, who wants to join me in neutering systemd on Debian and probably every other distro? With everything I've learned during the systemd fiasco, if I were to choose Debian's sysv-init, it would be nosh or something very much like it. And, as far as I know, it's ready to go, and our only involvement would be building replacements for formerly available software that was replaced by systemd-welded substitutes. After Jonathan de Boyne Pollard revealing post from yesterday (Wednesday, 10/15/2014), we could write some stupid-simple utilities to individually do all the stuff that logind does, probably using sudoers. Which means a big part of the task would be documentation, and I can do that. Of course, we'd need to write substitutes for the other 3 major welded and subsumed daemons, and some other stuff, but from what Jonathan said, logind is the challenging one. IMHO we should spend absolutely no time or energy making this stuff pretty, or even GUI if it presents challenges. If I'm guessing right about the situation, people who want pretty wouldn't have a problem with monolithic entanglement and vendor lock-in, just as long as they didn't have to pay money for their OS. As a matter of fact, regardless of what the DDs do, it just might be true that making either a systemd-free or systemd-neutered Debian might be mainly a documentation problem, and I'm pretty good at documentation. Who wants to join me? It's your chance to make Red-Hat *really* hate you. And make a lot of Debian users and other Linux people love you. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141016113419.37ea8...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Would discussion of improving sysv-init be on topic?
Steve Litt wrote: On Thu, 16 Oct 2014 11:28:50 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: POINT OF CLARIFICATION: Nothing written below is nosh specific. It could be used with nosh, or upstart, or sysvinit, or any other PID1 that's *only* a PID1. So how about it, who wants to join me in neutering systemd on Debian and probably every other distro? It strikes me that there's actually very little that needs to be done. In the short term, the world, including Debian, will continue to support sysvinit scripts - if only because the BSDs aren't going anywhere, I expect autotools will continue to build things with init scripts, logging to syslog, etc. As far as I can tell, the major place that some work may be needed is in the Debian Installer - to make it easier to install a sysvinit based system. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543fe964.4050...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Would discussion of improving sysv-init be on topic?
On 14Oct16:1151-0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: It strikes me that there's actually very little that needs to be done. In the short term, the world, including Debian, will continue to support sysvinit scripts - if only because the BSDs aren't going anywhere, I expect autotools will continue to build things with init scripts, logging to syslog, etc. As far as I can tell, the major place that some work may be needed is in the Debian Installer - to make it easier to install a sysvinit based system. I'd recommend someone take a close look at the assimilated packages, especially udev, before this seat-of-the-pants feasiblity study is deemed useful. -- not cent from sell May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly! Dave_Craig__ So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe. __--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Would discussion of improving sysv-init be on topic?
systemd's problems would best be discussed at the systemd project. (Modulo the willingness of the devs over there to discuss them.) What I'm thinking is to talk about specific features to enable the sort of managing services that systemd seems to be aimed at, and how to implement them, where existing alternatives exist and how well they work, With enough discussion, we might be able to get enough mass to get a project started and get it (mostly) off-list. Joel Rees Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens. All is a stream of text flowing from the past into the future.
