[libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
Le 2011-07-06 02:13, Larry Gusaas a écrit : On 2011/07/05 3:57 PM Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi Jean, Sigrid, all, thanks for your mails that allow me to go a step further: Sigrid Carrera schrieb: Hi Jean, Bernhard, *all, On Wed, 6 Jul 2011 06:49:04 +1000 Jean Weberjeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: [...] Just for your information: the DE documentation team has voted for the Clearlooks theme with green2 as the colour to use. I'm not very happy with this choice, I would have preferred a less noisy colour with still a good contrast, but it was a majority voting for this. So, we're going to produce screenshots with this theme for our documentation - and if necessary, we will provide screenshots for the website too. I wrote: [...] if you think, a guideline (we recommend ...) leading to similar screenshots in our docs would be a good thing, please let's define the theme, so it can be used on our wiki and we can end this discussion. Guidelines are good and important. I hope we can agree on some guidelines within the whole project soon. Yes, guidelines are good. I am all for guidelines. I have given my opinion on the desirable look of a theme for documentation, and I'll be away for 2.5 weeks so I won't be able to create any more noise on this subject. I hope it's decided by the time I get back. :-) Based on your comments in this thread I want to start a new thread for a vote on this topic. People should vote *either* for a consistent theme based on Jean's proposal: http://go.mail-archive.com/xUDsiIBlv-ZqBlXMjn971KD2YDw= - Clearlooks theme - Font: Liberation bold - Font size: 11 pt - Highlight foreground color: Libre Green 2 (#43C330) *or* against any proposal to use a consistent theme for screenshots. Based on this decision there should be a wiki page describing how screenshots are recommended to be taken. Existing screenshots should only be replaced when time allows it (for example when the respective chapter or book is worked over). Do we need to add anything else? Are these options to vote on sufficient to consider the different opinions mentioned here? I'd like to wait for another 24 hours for comments and start the voting tomorrow. Best regards Bernhard If you adopt this proposal no one using a Mac will be able to make screenshots for your manuals. Your documentation is already lacking in Mac specific content, don't make it worse. The current screenshots are very different from the appearance of LibreOffice on a Mac. Larry Perhaps we should look at it from another viewpoint, If you adopt this proposal people using GNOME/KDE will have a guide with which to take screenshots. This will now allow you time to turn your attention to the Mac and Windows platforms in order to work out a comparable theme. We need to start somewhere, and it seems like the most logical place to start is with the Linux platform, this, due to the uncertainty over Windows copyright giberish and FUD. Logically, again, the Mac users would be next in line to be served up with a LibreOffice theme. If the Mac people could take a look at the suggested guide criteria and come back with proposals, this would help out quite a bit. Many of us do not have Mac's to work out a theme, so we need to collect Mac users interested in working on this. You may be able to do like I did, I asked for help on the KDE forums (theme section). There must be somewhere one could ask on Mac forums for help as well. In the case of the Mac platform, it will take someone who owns a Mac to take the lead. I personally, don't think it will be difficult to create the same on the Windows platform. We will probably have an easy time getting help with this from someone well versed in theme creation. Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
Hi Jean et al, Le 2011-07-05 16:49, Jean Weber a écrit : I am talking about the screenshots that are already there. Replacing them will be a lot of work and not IMO a high priority. When they need to be replaced for other reasons, then the screenshots should be done in the recommended theme if possible. I also agree that this might not be a high priority. However, if the guidelines are clear, and, if we get more people involved in just managing/taking care of screenshots, then they could take care of updating the previous screenshots. After all, these people would not have been part of the original equation and part of the high priority status ... let's just call these new people extras that could work independently, replacing/upgrading the screenshots. There may be a short mentoring period where some hand holding between the screenshot persons and the design team may occur to set them on the right path. Cheers, Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
Hi Marc, *all, On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 01:52:51 -0400 Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote: Hi Bernhard et al Le 2011-07-05 17:57, Bernhard Dippold a écrit : People should vote *either* for a consistent theme based on Jean's proposal: http://go.mail-archive.com/xUDsiIBlv-ZqBlXMjn971KD2YDw= - Clearlooks theme - Font: Liberation bold - Font size: 11 pt - Highlight foreground color: Libre Green 2 (#43C330) *or* against any proposal to use a consistent theme for screenshots. Based on this decision there should be a wiki page describing how screenshots are recommended to be taken. Existing screenshots should only be replaced when time allows it (for example when the respective chapter or book is worked over). Do we need to add anything else? Are these options to vote on sufficient to consider the different opinions mentioned here? I'd like to wait for another 24 hours for comments and start the voting tomorrow. Best regards Bernhard I had left this as another thing to think about: The only other thing that we really did not discuss was the use of pointers/cursors. I personally like the OpenZone white pointer/cursor theme. It is available for Gnome and KDE[1][2], but it has a very nice defined white cursor arrow and white fill. This would give everyone a standard pointer/cursor theme that they could install. Once we have completed the agreement on the components of the theme, I'll commit to looking into creating an installable theme for the Linux group so that we can easily install it through the Gnome/KDE tools. I'm not sure about the theme for mouse pointers. I usually set Gimp to not include the mouse pointer when taking a screenshot. In this case you won't see it at all. But I guess, there's no harm in suggesting which theme to use for the mouse pointer as well. @Larry Gusaas, There are only a few people who have a Mac (I don't have one either). So if you feel, that our documentation is lacking Mac-specific content, how about joining the Documentation team and helping out? Just complaining doesn't help with the problem. ;) Sigrid -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
Hi Sigrid Le 2011-07-06 04:41, Sigrid Carrera a écrit : I'm not sure about the theme for mouse pointers. I usually set Gimp to not include the mouse pointer when taking a screenshot. In this case you won't see it at all. But I guess, there's no harm in suggesting which theme to use for the mouse pointer as well. Sigrid I use Ksnapshot for my screenshots. Have you tried it? I was hoping this would work for LibreOffice screen captures. Cheers, Marc Mageia, KDE 4.6.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
Hi Marc, On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 04:53:53 -0400 Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote: Hi Sigrid Le 2011-07-06 04:41, Sigrid Carrera a écrit : I'm not sure about the theme for mouse pointers. I usually set Gimp to not include the mouse pointer when taking a screenshot. In this case you won't see it at all. But I guess, there's no harm in suggesting which theme to use for the mouse pointer as well. Sigrid I use Ksnapshot for my screenshots. Have you tried it? I was hoping this would work for LibreOffice screen captures. I know Ksnapshot and I like it very much. But since I changed to the gnome desktop (I have trouble finding my way with the KDE 4 Desktop) I use Gimp instead. And since I want to change/modify the screenshot afterwards anyways, I have it already in the correct program. ;) But if I remember correctly, even with Ksnapshot you can decide, if you want to picture the mouse pointer or not. Maybe Ksnapshot has a different default setting from Gimp. I am sure, that you can use Ksnapshot for your screen captures. Sigrid -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
Le 06/07/2011 12:02, Sigrid Carrera a écrit : Hi Marc, On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 04:53:53 -0400 Marc Parém...@marcpare.com wrote: Hi Sigrid Le 2011-07-06 04:41, Sigrid Carrera a écrit : I'm not sure about the theme for mouse pointers. I usually set Gimp to not include the mouse pointer when taking a screenshot. In this case you won't see it at all. But I guess, there's no harm in suggesting which theme to use for the mouse pointer as well. Sigrid I use Ksnapshot for my screenshots. Have you tried it? I was hoping this would work for LibreOffice screen captures. I know Ksnapshot and I like it very much. But since I changed to the gnome desktop (I have trouble finding my way with the KDE 4 Desktop) I use Gimp instead. And since I want to change/modify the screenshot afterwards anyways, I have it already in the correct program. ;) But if I remember correctly, even with Ksnapshot you can decide, if you want to picture the mouse pointer or not. Maybe Ksnapshot has a different default setting from Gimp. I am sure, that you can use Ksnapshot for your screen captures. Sigrid For Gnome, I think you could use shutter for screenshots, it's very powerful. Your choice. Kévin PEIGNOT -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] One banner and a template
2011/7/6 klaus-jürgen weghorn ol o...@sophia-louise.de Hi Charles-H, Am 06.07.2011 12:26, schrieb Charles-H. Schulz: Hello UX and Design team, I'm still in the conference preparation. :-) I would need -rather urgently- a banner to be put on our homepage, like we did with the fundraising one. Why don't we use the official banner like it is on the conference page [1]? Or only the right part of it? Otherwise: any definition of size or so? I don't have any definition of size, but you are right: the banner as it is and a sentence: join us in Paris, submit your paper! would be good. best, Charles. [1] http://conference.libreoffice.**org/http://conference.libreoffice.org/ I would need for the beginning of August a presentation template for our conference speakers. -- Grüße k-j -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.**libreoffice.orgdesign%2bh...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/design/http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
Hi Bernhard, 2011/7/5 Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at Hi all, Bernhard Dippold schrieb: Hi Björn, all Björn Balasz wrote: Hi Bernhard, all, Am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011, 23:09:33 schrieb Bernhard Dippold: [...] I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept. I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better. While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add more fields than just one caption below each image. With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages to get the necessary information. A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each specific design element (if existing) and many more information. On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery. Could you take care of this? Important to me seems to be that commitments are licenced correctly and allow to show mocks, designs and even prototypes at the same time. Don't know which technical solution is best for this... I can try to - but I'd really appreciate someone else to step in (too). My time is limited, but that's probably the same for each of our team members. I started with some thoughts on the single UI elements table. Here is the very first result: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/User:**Bedipp/UI_Elementshttp://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Bedipp/UI_Elements A table with different fields containing UI elements, a thumbnail image, name and date of upload, last activity, description, other implementations, advantages and disadvantages and finally the priority (or status of implementation). Please don't hesitate to comment and work on this table, find superfluous or lacking columns, add your own ideas - I already have a table of some of my ideas on http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Citrus_UI : should I add all the ideas to the table? I'm assuming that would overflow the table, especially when the Description column is so small, but which features do I add then? Or should I just add a link to my table? Thanks. But most important: discuss it here. If there will be positive feedback I'll move this page out of my personal page. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.**libreoffice.orgdesign%2bh...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/design/http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
Le 2011-07-06 06:02, Sigrid Carrera a écrit : Hi Marc, On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 04:53:53 -0400 Marc Parém...@marcpare.com wrote: Hi Sigrid Le 2011-07-06 04:41, Sigrid Carrera a écrit : I'm not sure about the theme for mouse pointers. I usually set Gimp to not include the mouse pointer when taking a screenshot. In this case you won't see it at all. But I guess, there's no harm in suggesting which theme to use for the mouse pointer as well. Sigrid I use Ksnapshot for my screenshots. Have you tried it? I was hoping this would work for LibreOffice screen captures. I know Ksnapshot and I like it very much. But since I changed to the gnome desktop (I have trouble finding my way with the KDE 4 Desktop) I use Gimp instead. And since I want to change/modify the screenshot afterwards anyways, I have it already in the correct program. ;) But if I remember correctly, even with Ksnapshot you can decide, if you want to picture the mouse pointer or not. Maybe Ksnapshot has a different default setting from Gimp. I am sure, that you can use Ksnapshot for your screen captures. Sigrid It would be great if we could have a fast and easy way for people to learn how to do screenshots. Gimp has a little steep learning curve. Could you give me a quick example of what kind of things you would usually change with your screenshots? And yes, with Knapshot, you do have the option of taking a screenshot with or without cursor/pointer. Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
On 2011/07/06 1:08 AM Marc Paré wrote: Logically, again, the Mac users would be next in line to be served up with a LibreOffice theme. If the Mac people could take a look at the suggested guide criteria and come back with proposals, this would help out quite a bit. Many of us do not have Mac's to work out a theme, so we need to collect Mac users interested in working on this. You may be able to do like I did, I asked for help on the KDE forums (theme section). There must be somewhere one could ask on Mac forums for help as well. In the case of the Mac platform, it will take someone who owns a Mac to take the lead. Mac's use the system theme (blue or graphite) for all applications and menu bars. Mac user's expect all programs that properly follow Apple's user interface design guidelines. Your proposed theme would have to override the installed Mac theme and would apply to all programs. This is not wanted by Mac users (I do not know if it is even possible). Quit trying to impose a standard design for all platforms. The less a program looks like a Mac program, the less likely a Mac user will use it. Larry -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
On 2011/07/06 12:52 PM Sigrid Carrera wrote: How is describing how the situation for the volunteers is, telling you to fix the problem yourself? I am happy to fix it for you. Just buy me a Mac (any will do) and I add the Mac specific content to the documentation. But I myself can't afford to buy a Mac. Do you know how many times I have seen responses to a problem telling the poster to contribute a solution themselves or pay someone to do so? You response falls into the same condescending category, especially your remark about buying you a Mac. What a bunch of elitist bullshit. Larry -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 16:21:01 -0600 Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: On 2011/07/06 12:52 PM Sigrid Carrera wrote: How is describing how the situation for the volunteers is, telling you to fix the problem yourself? I am happy to fix it for you. Just buy me a Mac (any will do) and I add the Mac specific content to the documentation. But I myself can't afford to buy a Mac. Do you know how many times I have seen responses to a problem telling the poster to contribute a solution themselves or pay someone to do so? You response falls into the same condescending category, especially your remark about buying you a Mac. What a bunch of elitist bullshit. It's not elitist bullshit. I can't afford one - I am unemployed and get no money from the government because I studied the last five years instead of working and earning money. So I have to see how I manage to live. You don't have to buy me anything. If you don't like it here, no one forces you to stay. Just go over to Apache OOo and see if the grass is there greener than here. Or stay here, but don't complain. I'm happy either way. Sigrid -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
Larry, I will candidly admit I don't see you as having any standing in this regard. The open source community is not the same as a paid company. Nobody can really demand anything of anyone, as you are. You can say you're just reporting, and so far as I can tell, your initial mail was a report. But you've moved from outlining a problem to more or less demanding that someone other than yourself fix the problem for you. I see nothing elitist or even bullshit about Sigrid's mails. They are stating an entirely reasonable fact-- they do not own Mac computers, and won't be able to help with documentation in that regard. You, on the other hand, do own a Mac computer, and presumably you're also familiar with how to use one considering you more or less cited Apple's HIG for programs. I see nothing unreasonable about asking you to step up and help with documentation, seeing as you are the only one so far who owns a Mac computer. Do you expect them to borrow a Mac computer and be able to honestly present documentation based on that experience? All that being said, I do own a 7th generation Macbook Pro, and would be willing to help provide screenshots and/or documentation. It is not my primary machine, but I've used it for long enough that I feel I could provide information necessary. On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 6:28 PM, Sigrid Carrera sigrid.carr...@googlemail.com wrote: On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 16:21:01 -0600 Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: On 2011/07/06 12:52 PM Sigrid Carrera wrote: How is describing how the situation for the volunteers is, telling you to fix the problem yourself? I am happy to fix it for you. Just buy me a Mac (any will do) and I add the Mac specific content to the documentation. But I myself can't afford to buy a Mac. Do you know how many times I have seen responses to a problem telling the poster to contribute a solution themselves or pay someone to do so? You response falls into the same condescending category, especially your remark about buying you a Mac. What a bunch of elitist bullshit. It's not elitist bullshit. I can't afford one - I am unemployed and get no money from the government because I studied the last five years instead of working and earning money. So I have to see how I manage to live. You don't have to buy me anything. If you don't like it here, no one forces you to stay. Just go over to Apache OOo and see if the grass is there greener than here. Or stay here, but don't complain. I'm happy either way. Sigrid -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Christopher Lee Executive Director Champion Debate Camp Co-Captain Thomas Jefferson Policy Debate Team --The Gunboat Debater-- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
Le 2011-07-06 12:31, Larry Gusaas a écrit : On 2011/07/06 1:08 AM Marc Paré wrote: Logically, again, the Mac users would be next in line to be served up with a LibreOffice theme. If the Mac people could take a look at the suggested guide criteria and come back with proposals, this would help out quite a bit. Many of us do not have Mac's to work out a theme, so we need to collect Mac users interested in working on this. You may be able to do like I did, I asked for help on the KDE forums (theme section). There must be somewhere one could ask on Mac forums for help as well. In the case of the Mac platform, it will take someone who owns a Mac to take the lead. Mac's use the system theme (blue or graphite) for all applications and menu bars. Mac user's expect all programs that properly follow Apple's user interface design guidelines. Your proposed theme would have to override the installed Mac theme and would apply to all programs. This is not wanted by Mac users (I do not know if it is even possible). Quit trying to impose a standard design for all platforms. The less a program looks like a Mac program, the less likely a Mac user will use it. Larry Hi Larry, I don't see how a LibreOffice Theme that is iconic of a software package has anything to do with a Mac Theme. Do you mean to say that LibreOffice has to bend to the Mac theme to qualify as a legitimate programme? It almost sounds like the Mac is dressed in a gray suit and wants everyone else to wear gray. Seems to me that the initial premise of the Mac was not to be another blue suit like the Win PC Jr. types. It is a shame is this is what the Mac platform has reduced itself to the world. It this were the case, and, if this were true, then I would be more than happy to not recommend Mac's to people due to it's narrowistic view. Now, knowing this is not the case (we do use them in my school board, but not many), how about, rather than complaining about the lack of theme resource for your favourite OS, could you look into finding out if there is a compatible set of tools for the Mac as proposed for our theme guidelines? It would be a lot of help for the other Mac owners, and, we will try as best we can, to work something out for the Mac platform. Surely, would this not sound reasonable? Cheers, Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
Le 2011-07-06 12:36, Larry Gusaas a écrit : On 2011/07/06 2:41 AM Sigrid Carrera wrote: @Larry Gusaas, There are only a few people who have a Mac (I don't have one either). So if you feel, that our documentation is lacking Mac-specific content, how about joining the Documentation team and helping out? Just complaining doesn't help with the problem.;) Typical condescending remark telling users to fix ' themselves. So pointing out problems is just complaining? How are you supposed to know about problems if users don't point them out. I hope the Apache OpenOffice project has a much more open attitude than I see here. Larry I don't see anything condescending about Sigrid's remark. They echo the same that I said, if a Mac owner is interested in helping out, then it would be nice for him/her to take the lead. If we don't own a Mac it is difficult for us to test. I would think that this is an obvious statement, which Sigrid and I had to say. I personally do not own a Mac and have no desire to own one. I can afford to purchase one, but using a Linux box is just more interesting for me as I actually donate my time at my school helping out families who have low income and who are interested in using an affordable computer and OS. As for the ASF OOo, hmmm, I am not sure if they would have any other opinion of their team. I imagine that they probably could not help you out with it either if the people involved with screenshot guidelines do not have a Mac to test on. Common sense would say that they could not unless someone who owns one (just like you) were to help out. Have a nice day. Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
Hi Christopher: Le 2011-07-06 23:51, Christopher Lee a écrit : Marc, What Larry's referring to overall is Apple's Human Interface Guidelines ( http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGIntro/XHIGIntro.html), which basically define what's expected from Apple programs. Many programs will conform to these guidelines, which impose general color schemes, scrollbars, and conventions more or less analogously to what GTK does for Linux (there's a shell script that makes Ubuntu use the Aqua theme-- it well shows how Aqua and GTK function in similar ways with regards to interface design). It shouldn't be deadly difficult to find how the others use these sets, though I don't think it requires that much. Though Larry, plenty of people use MSO for Mac, which definitively does break the HIG. Ahh, thanks for the information. I know that there has been talk of having a separate Mac set of screenshots. IMHO, if we can make LibreOffice colours show on desktops then it will be great marketing feat. I would imagine that if the LibreOffice green sticks out in a sea of blue or graphite, then people will notice it. I don't think people will complain of the LibreOffice software quality because it displays different colours. I guess we would then be considered the nasty rebels on the Mac platform ... ironic when you consider the Mac has TV commercials depicting itself as a rebel to MSWindows. :-) Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
Marc, I would be happy to do the screenshots for any OS X version of LibreOffice. My only concern is somewhat in line with Larry's, actually. From what I hear, most OS X users really do expect applications to fall into line with Apple's HIG, which is why many Java programs aren't that popular on the OS X platform-- they stick out like a sore thumb. Does that mean we have to follow the default Aqua color scheme? I don't think so-- there are several very popular programs that certainly don't adopt the graphite/gray. Microsoft Office breaks the guidelines and general conventions and still prevails (though admittedly this may be because of its market share overall). Although I don't think users would mind different colors, I would recommend at least leaving the option to switch to default colors and icons, if only because some users really do prefer a consistent theme overall. The recent popularity of the Elementary Project in the Linux world seems to be a demonstration of this, to say nothing of the longstanding criticism leveled at programs that override GTK+ themes to no real advantage. Also keep in mind that OpenOffice.org had an entire project devoted to Mac-ifying it, which was the NeoOffice project. We may gain more users by not being bombastically different, is all that I'm saying. Sincerely, -- Christopher Lee Executive Director Champion Debate On Thursday, July 7, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Marc Paré wrote: Hi Christopher: Le 2011-07-06 23:51, Christopher Lee a écrit : Marc, What Larry's referring to overall is Apple's Human Interface Guidelines ( http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGIntro/XHIGIntro.html), which basically define what's expected from Apple programs. Many programs will conform to these guidelines, which impose general color schemes, scrollbars, and conventions more or less analogously to what GTK does for Linux (there's a shell script that makes Ubuntu use the Aqua theme-- it well shows how Aqua and GTK function in similar ways with regards to interface design). It shouldn't be deadly difficult to find how the others use these sets, though I don't think it requires that much. Though Larry, plenty of people use MSO for Mac, which definitively does break the HIG. Ahh, thanks for the information. I know that there has been talk of having a separate Mac set of screenshots. IMHO, if we can make LibreOffice colours show on desktops then it will be great marketing feat. I would imagine that if the LibreOffice green sticks out in a sea of blue or graphite, then people will notice it. I don't think people will complain of the LibreOffice software quality because it displays different colours. I guess we would then be considered the nasty rebels on the Mac platform ... ironic when you consider the Mac has TV commercials depicting itself as a rebel to MSWindows. :-) Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org (mailto:design+h...@global.libreoffice.org) Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
On 2011/07/06 9:40 PM Marc Paré wrote: I don't see how a LibreOffice Theme that is iconic of a software package has anything to do with a Mac Theme. Do you mean to say that LibreOffice has to bend to the Mac theme to qualify as a legitimate programme? It almost sounds like the Mac is dressed in a gray suit and wants everyone else to wear gray. You're missing the point. Several items of the proposal are controlled on Mac's by the system theme. To change them you would have to change them for the whole system. e.g. Menu bar (program name/File/Edit/View/etc.): Font type, size, and background set by system theme and is the same for every program. Title of each window: Font type and size set by system defaults. That is an example of some items that can't be changed for a specific program Seems to me that the initial premise of the Mac was not to be another blue suit like the Win PC Jr. types. It is a shame is this is what the Mac platform has reduced itself to the world. It this were the case, and, if this were true, then I would be more than happy to not recommend Mac's to people due to it's narrowistic view. Huh? Apple has always been the innovator that is being copied by other companies. It is known for its aesthetics and creative designs and interfaces Now, knowing this is not the case (we do use them in my school board, but not many), how about, rather than complaining about the lack of theme resource for your favourite OS, I am not complaining about lack of resources but the attempt to impose designs contrary to normal Mac interfaces on Mac users. could you look into finding out if there is a compatible set of tools for the Mac as proposed for our theme guidelines? No. I want the LibreOffice design on Macs to conform to Mac UI standards. It would be a lot of help for the other Mac owners, and, we will try as best we can, to work something out for the Mac platform. Then design the Mac version according to Mac standards. Larry -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Screenshots for LibreOffice documentation
Hi Jay, *, On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 4:26 AM, planas jsloz...@gmail.com wrote: Unless someone is willing to spend the time and money to properly research the US legal issues, the safest course is avoid any chance of putting us into a possible legal crosshairs. I have neither. The problem is that no one has come forward who is US attorney and knowledgeable on software related issues to advise us. MS could consider LO as a direct competitor to MSO and thus would look for our legal blunders committed out of ignorance of US law. It may be more tedious for us to make sure our screenshots do not show anything that would imply a Windows OS but it is safer. I doubt any Linux distro would be upset if their desktop was identifiable in one of our screenshots. In fact a subtle plug could made by saying all the screenshots were made on various Linux distros. Many Windows users think we are command line using dinosaurs and would be surprised to see a vaguely familiar desktop. Well, if one *were* to accept that the risk might possibly exist in the US, I somehow *feel* that Microsoft would be much less likely to succeed in such hypothetical action in European courts. Also, certainly in Europe, Microsoft would be likely to attract loud criticism and incite hostile activism in doing so. But, even if one were to avoid Windows screenshots to the greatest extent possible (it being difficult to produce good Windows installation guides - for example - without taking screenshots under Windows), I still would not like to see the English docs team and website team taking its screenshots purely under Linux/Unix. What about the Macintosh platform? I'd certainly like to encourage more involvement from Mac users. Also, in response to a conversation taking place currently on the Design mailing list (the which list I'm CC'ing), it's my personal feeling that it is not especially beneficial to ensure that all screenshots look identical (in terms of the theme used). Nor do I personally feel it's particularly beneficial to ensure that all screenshots be taken using a theme based on colors from the LibreOffice Design/Marketing pallet. An English documentation contributor's guide has been developed with rational recommendations for the taking of screenshots, and I think it largely addresses the issues that really matter in terms of their usability/suitability. However, I feel that we should make it as easy as possible for new English docs and website contributors to get involved, and not set-up unnecessary requirements in terms of software used and GUI environment. And I also feel we should *celebrate* the possible diversity of OS and GUI for running LibreOffice, and need not shun variety of colors and themes in screenshots either for English LibreOffice documentation or for LibreOffice websites. Anyway, this is just to make clear my own POV on the subject one final time. Thanks for reading, if you did. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [VI] Consistent theme for screenshots
Le 2011-07-07 00:37, Larry Gusaas a écrit : On 2011/07/06 9:40 PM Marc Paré wrote: I don't see how a LibreOffice Theme that is iconic of a software package has anything to do with a Mac Theme. Do you mean to say that LibreOffice has to bend to the Mac theme to qualify as a legitimate programme? It almost sounds like the Mac is dressed in a gray suit and wants everyone else to wear gray. You're missing the point. Several items of the proposal are controlled on Mac's by the system theme. To change them you would have to change them for the whole system. e.g. Menu bar (program name/File/Edit/View/etc.): Font type, size, and background set by system theme and is the same for every program. Title of each window: Font type and size set by system defaults. That is an example of some items that can't be changed for a specific program Seems to me that the initial premise of the Mac was not to be another blue suit like the Win PC Jr. types. It is a shame is this is what the Mac platform has reduced itself to the world. It this were the case, and, if this were true, then I would be more than happy to not recommend Mac's to people due to it's narrowistic view. Huh? Apple has always been the innovator that is being copied by other companies. It is known for its aesthetics and creative designs and interfaces Now, knowing this is not the case (we do use them in my school board, but not many), how about, rather than complaining about the lack of theme resource for your favourite OS, I am not complaining about lack of resources but the attempt to impose designs contrary to normal Mac interfaces on Mac users. could you look into finding out if there is a compatible set of tools for the Mac as proposed for our theme guidelines? No. I want the LibreOffice design on Macs to conform to Mac UI standards. It would be a lot of help for the other Mac owners, and, we will try as best we can, to work something out for the Mac platform. Then design the Mac version according to Mac standards. Larry Well, I guess at this point, there is nothing else to do but to thank you for pointing this out. Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
