Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Dec-20
Hello everyone, I don't know this so it might be a somewhat silly question. Within the ODF spec are there mandatory fonts that have to be supported by all implementations? I see zero reason to embed additional fonts if this is the case except for if you have purposely saved in a font that is required for interoperability. Even then isn't there a concept of a "default" fall back position? Kind regards, John Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 at 9:51 am, Stéphane Guillou wrote: Hi all On 22/12/2023 10:15, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: > The font embedding is an example of a deeper issue: > > If LibreOffice is a 'native' ODT editor; > and if you open an ODT in it; > and if you don't effect any changes in that ODT, but just save; > is it legitimate for the resulting ODT to be in any way different than > the original (other than meta-data regarding modification date etc.) ? > I think it might be legitimate in various cases. One example I can think of is how fileopen checks on a few things depending on what the user has or doesn't have, notably linked files and images. I think there's some similarity: fonts might get embedded if the file properties ask to do it, depending on the font's availability on the system it is opened on. Do you think there should be feedback to the user when such a thing happens? (e.g. a message saying "Font XYZ found, embedding it into the file. See File > Properties > Fonts to change that option."). And why would you save the file in the first place, if you haven't changed anything? Sorry if I'm missing the point :) > > On 22/12/2023 9:11, Heiko Tietze wrote: >> On 21.12.23 20:05, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: >>> "LibreOffice unexpectedly and strangely modifies an ODT file without >>> they user having done anything, and embedding unnecessary fonts nobody >>> asked it to." >> >> Sounds like another facet of the font embedding. I would treat bug >> 158588 about what fonts are embedded (CTL/CJK/Lat and used) and handle >> the situation of shared documents on another. I haven't tested what >> happens when one checks the embed fonts option and shares this document >> with another person. Assuming her fonts would also be included, >> silently, this is at least a privacy issue. >> Just curious, what concrete privacy concerns do you see here? But maybe the "notification" I suggested above would be enough to make the change transparent and the user aware. Cheers -- Stéphane Guillou Quality Assurance Analyst | The Document Foundation Email: stephane.guil...@libreoffice.org Matrix: @stragu:matrix.org Fediverse: @str...@mastodon.indie.host Web: https://stragu.gitlab.io/ -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Dec-20
Hi all On 22/12/2023 10:15, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: The font embedding is an example of a deeper issue: If LibreOffice is a 'native' ODT editor; and if you open an ODT in it; and if you don't effect any changes in that ODT, but just save; is it legitimate for the resulting ODT to be in any way different than the original (other than meta-data regarding modification date etc.) ? I think it might be legitimate in various cases. One example I can think of is how fileopen checks on a few things depending on what the user has or doesn't have, notably linked files and images. I think there's some similarity: fonts might get embedded if the file properties ask to do it, depending on the font's availability on the system it is opened on. Do you think there should be feedback to the user when such a thing happens? (e.g. a message saying "Font XYZ found, embedding it into the file. See File > Properties > Fonts to change that option."). And why would you save the file in the first place, if you haven't changed anything? Sorry if I'm missing the point :) On 22/12/2023 9:11, Heiko Tietze wrote: On 21.12.23 20:05, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: "LibreOffice unexpectedly and strangely modifies an ODT file without they user having done anything, and embedding unnecessary fonts nobody asked it to." Sounds like another facet of the font embedding. I would treat bug 158588 about what fonts are embedded (CTL/CJK/Lat and used) and handle the situation of shared documents on another. I haven't tested what happens when one checks the embed fonts option and shares this document with another person. Assuming her fonts would also be included, silently, this is at least a privacy issue. Just curious, what concrete privacy concerns do you see here? But maybe the "notification" I suggested above would be enough to make the change transparent and the user aware. Cheers -- Stéphane Guillou Quality Assurance Analyst | The Document Foundation Email: stephane.guil...@libreoffice.org Matrix: @stragu:matrix.org Fediverse: @str...@mastodon.indie.host Web: https://stragu.gitlab.io/ -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Dec-20
The font embedding is an example of a deeper issue: If LibreOffice is a 'native' ODT editor; and if you open an ODT in it; and if you don't effect any changes in that ODT, but just save; is it legitimate for the resulting ODT to be in any way different than the original (other than meta-data regarding modification date etc.) ? On 22/12/2023 9:11, Heiko Tietze wrote: On 21.12.23 20:05, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: "LibreOffice unexpectedly and strangely modifies an ODT file without they user having done anything, and embedding unnecessary fonts nobody asked it to." Sounds like another facet of the font embedding. I would treat bug 158588 about what fonts are embedded (CTL/CJK/Lat and used) and handle the situation of shared documents on another. I haven't tested what happens when one checks the embed fonts option and shares this document with another person. Assuming her fonts would also be included, silently, this is at least a privacy issue. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Dec-20
On 21.12.23 20:05, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: "LibreOffice unexpectedly and strangely modifies an ODT file without they user having done anything, and embedding unnecessary fonts nobody asked it to." Sounds like another facet of the font embedding. I would treat bug 158588 about what fonts are embedded (CTL/CJK/Lat and used) and handle the situation of shared documents on another. I haven't tested what happens when one checks the embed fonts option and shares this document with another person. Assuming her fonts would also be included, silently, this is at least a privacy issue. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Dec-20
I want to draw our attention to the first bug which was on the agenda in yesterday's design meeting: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158588 I would say that bug is misnamed. It should be called: "LibreOffice unexpectedly and strangely modifies an ODT file without they user having done anything, and embedding unnecessary fonts nobody asked it to." IMHO it's several non-trivial issues rolled into one: * LO's "contract" with the user as an ODT editor * Where does the UI regarding font embedding choices belong? * Does LO "know" about the actual use of different languages in a document? I've commented on the bug myself but would encourage more of us to have another look at it. Eyal PS - Sorry for missing the meeting :-( On 20/12/2023 23:00, Heiko Tietze wrote: Present: Sahil, Rafael, John, Heiko Comments: Dieter, Stuart Tickets/Topics * Redesign font embedding options in sfx2/uiconfig/ui/documentfontspage.ui + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158588 + improve help (Dieter, bug 130185) + dummy text with no embedded font = 28k, with all options on = 22000k with "only used" 927k, with all but limited to latin = 1800k + disable CTL & CJK depending on options and + check by default and disable the "Only used fonts" unless the first option "Embed fonts" is activated (Heiko) + if the document contains and CTL/CJK font it would be pointless to exclude them when saving used fonts only; and the other option makes not much sense alone (Rafael) + font scripts options needs a dev check => do it * FORMCONTROLS Enhancement: Fill Cell with Text Box in Calc + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158273 + check/enable anchor to cell (resize with cell) and fit to cell size by default (Heiko) + changing this makes users needy and they may ask for better chart positioning, for example; how about a dedicated command to achieve the goal (Rafael) + could also be done per macro (Sahil) + goal was here to insert/manipulate many form controls; the workflow with copy/paste is tedious as cursor down or enter does not behave like at normal cells; which could be changed (Heiko) => comment * Incorrectly export number 0 form calc to PDF + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158533 + option to show/include zero is on by default and one has to disable it intentionally + same behavior on Excel + dependency to some archived PDF format is unclear => ask the ESC * New sidebar deck for comments + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=106316 + splitter to expand the comments margin (Jim) + comments in margin is sufficient for ordinary users (John) + vertical space in margin is not enough for academia; management is missing, eg. to find unresolved comments (Rafael) + sidebar has limited vertical space + but allows the list being unsynchronized ie. many comments on one single page overlapping each other + requirements: add filter by status, eg. resolved no urgent need for the procrastination option "hide temporarily" + mockup design: take the Onlyoffice example https://bug-attachments.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=191371; sort is missing; referenced text should be visible in the sidebar pane + enhancements: predefined responses? might be useful for some (Rafael), but should be done resp. the list filled by users (Sahil) + replace the comments in margin or amends it (John) => improve the mockup and ask the community in a blog post -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
