[libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout

[Sébastien Le Ray]

Le Thu, 03 Mar 2011 21:35:11 +0100,
Christoph Noack  a écrit :

> Hi Sébastien, hi all!
> 

Hi

> Am Donnerstag, den 03.03.2011, 14:16 +0100 schrieb Sébastien Le Ray:
> > Le Thu, 03 Mar 2011 11:59:19 +,
> > Michael Meeks  a écrit :
> > 
[...]
> 
> Although I didn't see it yet, thanks for your work - I'm really
> looking forward.

You can find a screenshot on
http://misc.orniz.org/libreoffice/lo-shadow.png book mode is also
handled nicely...

[...]


> However, I'd like to provide some pointers to the Notes stuff - it's
> really worth spending some time digging through some of the
> descriptions (in my point-of-view). I think this is better than
> pre-process most of the stuff, since I'm unaware of your likings :-)
> 
> The notes main wiki page (Notes2 because of the CWS that time):
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2
> 
> Here are the links to the detailed designs that had (sometimes) to be
> adapted due to technical constraints nobody spent the time for:
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2#Status_and_Proposals
> 
> And once finished with the default stuff, we have lots of further
> ideas: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2_OtherIdeas
> 
> 
> Personally, I've already spend over one year with the Notes project
> being the UX representative, so I'd like to work with you on that - if
> you like :-)

I'll be pleased to :) It'd be nice to have a "UI tasks" on libreoffice
wiki presenting all tasks that are ready on a Design point of view but
that have not yet been implemented.
There is a lot of stuff on the Note2 wiki page, could you give
priorities on various items?

[...]

> 
> If you are generally interested in working on Usability / Visual
> Design topics (of course, from the developer's point-of-view - and we
> really need some understanding and support here), feel invited to
> subscribe to the Design Team mailing list - some more information can
> be found here: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design

Subscribed yesterday :-)
It seems that you've been busy with more "marketting" stuff that UI
design lately to cover the launch of LO, FOSDEM and funraising

Waiting for you priorities & mockups on notes work :-)

Sébastien


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Re: [libreoffice-design] confusing status of grid enabled (fdo#31471)

[Petr Mladek]

Hi Christoph,

Christoph Noack píše v Čt 03. 03. 2011 v 21:58 +0100:
> Hi Petr, hi Rainer,
> 
> great to see new guys on the Design list :-)
> 
> Am Donnerstag, den 03.03.2011, 21:28 +0100 schrieb Petr Mladek:
> > Hi ,
> > 
> > you might want to look at
> > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31471 . The menu icon for
> > grid enabled/disabled is confusing. We would like to use a normal check
> > box instead. I hope that it does not break any design rules ;-)
> 
> Well, it does :-) Here is the (very short) OOo spec how Menus are
> styled, along with the description of checkmarks vs. images:
> http://specs.openoffice.org/ui_in_general/menus/Menus.odt

Well, I see there that both item images and checkmarks are allowed. I do
not see any rule when to use image and when checkmark.

Hmm, I do not like the checkmark specification. IMHO, it is more clear
to show empty box when the menu item is disabled. I see this (mine
preference) behavior in View/Toolbars/ menu.

> Concerning the issue, I can confirm some weird behavior in LibO 3.3.1 -
> but, everything is fine in OOo 3.2.0 (quickly checked). I don't know why
> "we" cause this issue ...

What is the correct behavior?

I have attached screenshots that shows the current behavior on Linux
GNOME x86_64. It shows the grid icon when the grid is disabled. It shows
nothing when the grid is enabled. I think that it does not follow the
specification. It should always show the grid and visualize
(border/background) whether it is selected or not.

Note that the same problem is with the "Snap to Grid" menu item. The
icon nicely visualize the purpose but it not shown when the feature is
enabled.

Note that "Grid to front" menu item uses the checkmark, so it looks
weird.

> Furthermore, there might be an additional issue when using one of the
> newer Linux distributions, since Gnome decided to deactivate the images
> in the menus. Thus, the images have to be replaced by real checkboxes,
> although the specification above is different in this case.

I use GNOME and I see icons on many menu locations.

> So, how to continue? Could anyone please check with a more recent OOo
> 3.3 - maybe on different platforms?
> 
> Petr, might it make more sense to continue this discussion in the issue
> tracker?

I would prefer to continue the discussion in bugzilla. It will be easier
to get input from users that are interested into that particular bug.

On the other hand, if you expect a flamewar inside the design team, it
might be enough to discuss it here and just mention a link to the
mailing list archive in the bug.

> PS: I had to moderate this mail, so - if anybody joins to answer, please
> CC all guys.

Thanks. I would prefer to do not subscribe. I am already in too many
lists that I do not read actively ;-)

Thanks for help.


Best Regards,
Petr

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft

[Nik]

Hi Design!

2 more days to go until the "brainstorming" of motif ideas is over and 
we begin design proposals (on Monday).

Head over to this page for more information;
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif


On 2/28/2011 10:45 AM, Christoph Noack wrote:

Hi Bernhard, hi Nik, all!

I'd like to second Bernhard's "Thank you!", since you take care of this
topic!

No problem, but time is running out for me unfortunately,
one of you guys may have to take over before the "task" is complete =(

Am Sonntag, den 27.02.2011, 22:36 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:

What we should add to the motif page are the examples used already:

- the single triangle (like the bullet points on the website)
- the grouped fading triangles in the left upper and right lower corner
  (from the start center)
- Paulo's idea of five colored triangles sticked together in a vertical row
  (on his light banners in the donate button)
- outer border with rounded corners and cut-off right upper corner
   (don't know if this really qualifys as motif, but it has an impact on the
general visual impression)
  ... any others?

Hi Bernhard and Christoph,
I've added your respective comments on the motif page and listed the 
"previous attempts" list Bernhard summarised above (but haven't linked 
any because I'm short on time).



Thanks for the nice collection - "close to motif" had been used for the
presentation template. The outline of the triangles in the
background ...
http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/10/libreoffice-presentation-template-first.html

There is one item which is even less a motiv, but repeated throughout
many of the graphics for the software: a non-symmetrical circular color
gradient, and some linear gradients in the "header" and "footer". An
early version:
http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/11/libreoffice-33-artwork-improvements.html
I'm glad to include these on the page, but we should expect that these 
previous elements will have no significant bearing on the Motif 
yet-to-be-designed.
I don't like carrying-over elements just because they have been used, I 
think it would be better to craft new elements from scratch with clear 
purpose+intentions+context from the beginning.

Cheers,
Christoph


Looking forward to some sexy motif proposals real soon crew!
-Nik

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice official color names

[Nik]

Hi Bernhard + Christoph,

Can I butt-in for a second on just one issue; ...

On 3/3/2011 9:33 AM, Christoph Noack wrote:

Hi Bernhard, all!

Am Mittwoch, den 02.03.2011, 23:00 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
[...]

The greyscale logo uses a 50% grey level (#808080), and I'd like to keep it.

But the darker part of the logo is black only in the basic logo.
We already discussed the black issue several times, so I'd like to see a
"LibreGrey 0" to be used for the dark part of the colored and the
greyscale logo.

In my eyes 80% grey (#33) is dark enough to look distinct from the
lighter tone, but is recognized as "not black".

It is simply music to my ears to hear you say that Bernhard =)

After so much discussion that seemed to have been swept under the rug, 
it is good to hear confirmation of this (sub)topic.
"Several times" is an understatement =) and if you go back through the 
proposals you can see a correlation between the level of "finish" in the 
designs and the absence of pure black.
Can we finally put this to bed and move to a dark-grey instead of black? 
reasons;

- Black is unfriendly
- Black creates a negative emphasis on contrast (especially given the 
simplicity of the shapes in the logo)

- Makes text "stick out" rather than "blend in"
- The Green doesn't match the black comfortably, but matches the greys well
- Printing dark grey is not an issue (including the mono version)
- Using Grey, especially in gradient, creates the perception of lighting

Really, you only need to look at the difference between this;
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibreOffice_Initial-Artwork-Logo_ColorLogoBasic_500px.png
and this;
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibreOffice_Initial-Artwork-Logo_ColorLogoContemporary_500px.png
to know that they are worlds apart.

Black text on white background = default = no thought given to 
appropriateness of message = no design effort made.



We could add "LibreGrey 2" and "LibreGrey 3", but I don't think this is
necessary for the LibO palette.

Mmh, I got lost a bit ... if I understood it correctly, you discuss the
logo instead of the color palette to be included in / translated for
LibreOffice.

Concerning the former, the black is still fine for the Basic logo for
various reasons. Indeed, the Contemporary logo features the different
gray shadings (and is the only one as far as I remember).

We shouldn't have "contemporary" and "plain" versions! that will only 
cause inconsistencies.
Why aren't we just moving over to the contemporary version as the /main/ 
logo?
The plain logo has no benefit over the contemporary version and 
switching them will not create confusion, they are essentially the same 
thing (to end users).

If we include the basic colors in the palette, more grey values are as
important as the main colors.
The logo point will probably not make it past this email, but the switch 
to grey over black should be considered.
I mean, haven't we been through this enough times to know that it isn't 
worth continuing this mistake?
Has a single person even been able to provide a substantial reason that 
black compliments the branding (clean, balanced and friendly) positioning?


-Nik

PS. I'm the biggest fan of black in identity design, but only when it 
suits the brand.


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Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo

[Johannes Bausch]

Hey,

okay, I've tried to set up a voting page for us, see here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey/Ligatures

Do you all have
write access to this page? I am not that experienced with wikis.

@Bernhard: I've shifted the i more to the left. I've also redone the visual
kerning for some of the letters; have a look at the scaled-down versions, it
"should" look more even now.

@all: It would be great if you voted on the wiki or here on the mailing
list. Even if you disapprove of this poll it would be great to get some more
opinions on this; so far it's only five people who talk about it.

Thanks,
Joey

PS: I'll be away until Wednesday next week.

2011/3/2 Bernhard Dippold 

> Hi Joey, all,
>
> replying to both of your mails, so please scroll down until the end...
>
> Johannes Bausch schrieb:
>
>> Hey,
>>
>> to gather some more opinions I thought it would be a good idea to have a
>> poll somewhere else, so I asked people in a forum to cast their vote.
>> Although I don't know whether this was a good idea (not really
>> representative, game design forum, so people might be programmers) I
>> thought
>> you might be interested in the results:
>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Poll.png
>>
>
> It's impossible to see the different alternatives, because at my computer
> the background is nearly black.
>
> Ii updated the image with a slightly lighter grey background, so you can
> see the different alternatives, but keep the white text of the poll results.
>
>  Apparently noone likes the
>> too fancy ligatures. Most people also complained about the logo in
>> general,
>> so I tried to explain why this is (and remains, for now) the logo of LibO.
>> If you're interested in the comments, too, I'll send you the link.
>> So... in the next days I'll make some final drafts and put up a voting
>> page.
>> If you have some final ideas please tell me.
>>
>
> People seem to like the last alternative (with "f" bow bent towards the "i"
> dot) as much as the original.
>
> Even if this is far from being representative, I'd like to see a finalized
> version of this proposal.
>
> Could you improve this by moving the "i" nearer to the "f"? I don't think
> that equal spacing for the dot between "f" and "i" looks best...
>
> Perhaps a combination of your third an my proposal?
>
>>
>> Greetings,
>> Joey
>>
>> 2011/3/2 Johannes Bausch
>>
>>  Hey Bernhard,
>>>
>>> 2011/3/2 Bernhard Dippold
>>>
>>> In your reply to my last mail I understood you in a way that you wanted
>>> to
>>>
 work on a new proposal.

  I added a third alternative (which I don't like very much). The logos
>>> on my
>>> page are only drafts; if we decide on one of them, I'll spend more time
>>> on
>>> it. At the moment I don't have another idea how to deal with the ligature
>>> -
>>> do you? I'd be more than glad to try another one.
>>>
>>
> Like your poll members I like this proposal best, but it needs some more
> tweaking (I mentioned above).
>
> I don't think that there are so many alternatives to modify the two "f" and
> the "i", so I don't have any other reliable alternative in mind.
>
>>
>>>
>>>  [...]

>>>
>>> But what we need to keep in mind: Changes being recognized by the average
>>>
 user / viewer will more likely be postponed until a new major or minor
 version
 than modifications leading "only" to a more balanced, professional and
 consistent visual impression.

  +1, I agree.
>>>
>>
> In my eyes proposals (c) and (d) might fall in the "balanced" category,
> while (a) and (b) would be more recognizable as modified details.
>
>  Who has the final word on that?
>>>
>>
> The SC, but they probably support a decision by the Design Team.
>
> Best regards
>
> Bernhard
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout

[Andrew]

On 04/03/11 07:42, Sébastien Le Ray wrote:
> Le Thu, 03 Mar 2011 21:35:11 +0100,
> Christoph Noack  a écrit :
> 
>> Hi Sébastien, hi all!
>>
> 
> Hi
> 
>> Am Donnerstag, den 03.03.2011, 14:16 +0100 schrieb Sébastien Le Ray:
>>> Le Thu, 03 Mar 2011 11:59:19 +,
>>> Michael Meeks  a écrit :
>>>
> [...]
>>
>> Although I didn't see it yet, thanks for your work - I'm really
>> looking forward.
> 
> You can find a screenshot on
> http://misc.orniz.org/libreoffice/lo-shadow.png book mode is also
> handled nicely...
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
>> However, I'd like to provide some pointers to the Notes stuff - it's
>> really worth spending some time digging through some of the
>> descriptions (in my point-of-view). I think this is better than
>> pre-process most of the stuff, since I'm unaware of your likings :-)
>>
>> The notes main wiki page (Notes2 because of the CWS that time):
>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2
>>
>> Here are the links to the detailed designs that had (sometimes) to be
>> adapted due to technical constraints nobody spent the time for:
>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2#Status_and_Proposals
>>
>> And once finished with the default stuff, we have lots of further
>> ideas: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2_OtherIdeas
>>
>>
>> Personally, I've already spend over one year with the Notes project
>> being the UX representative, so I'd like to work with you on that - if
>> you like :-)
> 
> I'll be pleased to :) It'd be nice to have a "UI tasks" on libreoffice
> wiki presenting all tasks that are ready on a Design point of view but
> that have not yet been implemented.
> There is a lot of stuff on the Note2 wiki page, could you give
> priorities on various items?
> 
> [...]
> 
>>
>> If you are generally interested in working on Usability / Visual
>> Design topics (of course, from the developer's point-of-view - and we
>> really need some understanding and support here), feel invited to
>> subscribe to the Design Team mailing list - some more information can
>> be found here: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design
> 
> Subscribed yesterday :-)
> It seems that you've been busy with more "marketting" stuff that UI
> design lately to cover the launch of LO, FOSDEM and funraising
> 
> Waiting for you priorities & mockups on notes work :-)
> 
> Sébastien
> 
> 

Hi All and Sebastien :)

Regarding that patch, I think that what we have in that screenshot is a
definite improvement, but I feel we could do better, and hopefully
without a lot more work.

If you look at the mockup I attached to the bug report, I feel this
looks a lot more modern and professional.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39920

I feel if instead of having that shadow aligned to the bottom left,
instead it is centred on the page, and we have a slightly larger blur
radius we can make it look a lot better.

Is this just me, or do other think this as well?

-- 
Andrew

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Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo

[Jaron Kuppers]

Hi Joey,

Sorry to disappoint after all your work but I took a poll at work and it was
unianimous... people liked the original logo better.  They thought it was
easier to read (f's are too close) and they thought the f connecting to the
i was out of place with the rest of the logo.

Vote: Original

Jaron





On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Johannes Bausch
wrote:

> Hey,
>
> okay, I've tried to set up a voting page for us, see here:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey/Ligatures
>
> Do you all have
> write access to this page? I am not that experienced with wikis.
>
> @Bernhard: I've shifted the i more to the left. I've also redone the visual
> kerning for some of the letters; have a look at the scaled-down versions,
> it
> "should" look more even now.
>
> @all: It would be great if you voted on the wiki or here on the mailing
> list. Even if you disapprove of this poll it would be great to get some
> more
> opinions on this; so far it's only five people who talk about it.
>
> Thanks,
> Joey
>
> PS: I'll be away until Wednesday next week.
>
> 2011/3/2 Bernhard Dippold 
>
> > Hi Joey, all,
> >
> > replying to both of your mails, so please scroll down until the end...
> >
> > Johannes Bausch schrieb:
> >
> >> Hey,
> >>
> >> to gather some more opinions I thought it would be a good idea to have a
> >> poll somewhere else, so I asked people in a forum to cast their vote.
> >> Although I don't know whether this was a good idea (not really
> >> representative, game design forum, so people might be programmers) I
> >> thought
> >> you might be interested in the results:
> >> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Poll.png
> >>
> >
> > It's impossible to see the different alternatives, because at my computer
> > the background is nearly black.
> >
> > Ii updated the image with a slightly lighter grey background, so you can
> > see the different alternatives, but keep the white text of the poll
> results.
> >
> >  Apparently noone likes the
> >> too fancy ligatures. Most people also complained about the logo in
> >> general,
> >> so I tried to explain why this is (and remains, for now) the logo of
> LibO.
> >> If you're interested in the comments, too, I'll send you the link.
> >> So... in the next days I'll make some final drafts and put up a voting
> >> page.
> >> If you have some final ideas please tell me.
> >>
> >
> > People seem to like the last alternative (with "f" bow bent towards the
> "i"
> > dot) as much as the original.
> >
> > Even if this is far from being representative, I'd like to see a
> finalized
> > version of this proposal.
> >
> > Could you improve this by moving the "i" nearer to the "f"? I don't think
> > that equal spacing for the dot between "f" and "i" looks best...
> >
> > Perhaps a combination of your third an my proposal?
> >
> >>
> >> Greetings,
> >> Joey
> >>
> >> 2011/3/2 Johannes Bausch
> >>
> >>  Hey Bernhard,
> >>>
> >>> 2011/3/2 Bernhard Dippold
> >>>
> >>> In your reply to my last mail I understood you in a way that you wanted
> >>> to
> >>>
>  work on a new proposal.
> 
>   I added a third alternative (which I don't like very much). The logos
> >>> on my
> >>> page are only drafts; if we decide on one of them, I'll spend more time
> >>> on
> >>> it. At the moment I don't have another idea how to deal with the
> ligature
> >>> -
> >>> do you? I'd be more than glad to try another one.
> >>>
> >>
> > Like your poll members I like this proposal best, but it needs some more
> > tweaking (I mentioned above).
> >
> > I don't think that there are so many alternatives to modify the two "f"
> and
> > the "i", so I don't have any other reliable alternative in mind.
> >
> >>
> >>>
> >>>  [...]
> 
> >>>
> >>> But what we need to keep in mind: Changes being recognized by the
> average
> >>>
>  user / viewer will more likely be postponed until a new major or minor
>  version
>  than modifications leading "only" to a more balanced, professional and
>  consistent visual impression.
> 
>   +1, I agree.
> >>>
> >>
> > In my eyes proposals (c) and (d) might fall in the "balanced" category,
> > while (a) and (b) would be more recognizable as modified details.
> >
> >  Who has the final word on that?
> >>>
> >>
> > The SC, but they probably support a decision by the Design Team.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Bernhard
> >
> > --
> > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
> > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/
> > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
> >
> >
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft

[Jaron Kuppers]

Hi Nik,

I would love to be involved but unfortunately I still feel that I don't
fully understand what is desired in the motif (what is the end
deliverable).  Of course, design is not my main background (mechanical
engineering is) so hopefully once design proposals go up I can contribute.
I look forward to seeing motif's!

Cheers,
Jaron




On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Nik  wrote:

> Hi Design!
>
> 2 more days to go until the "brainstorming" of motif ideas is over and we
> begin design proposals (on Monday).
> Head over to this page for more information;
>
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif
>
>
> On 2/28/2011 10:45 AM, Christoph Noack wrote:
>
>> Hi Bernhard, hi Nik, all!
>>
>> I'd like to second Bernhard's "Thank you!", since you take care of this
>> topic!
>>
> No problem, but time is running out for me unfortunately,
> one of you guys may have to take over before the "task" is complete =(
>
>> Am Sonntag, den 27.02.2011, 22:36 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
>>
>>> What we should add to the motif page are the examples used already:
>>>
>>>
>>> - the single triangle (like the bullet points on the website)
>>> - the grouped fading triangles in the left upper and right lower corner
>>>  (from the start center)
>>> - Paulo's idea of five colored triangles sticked together in a vertical
>>> row
>>>  (on his light banners in the donate button)
>>> - outer border with rounded corners and cut-off right upper corner
>>>   (don't know if this really qualifys as motif, but it has an impact on
>>> the
>>>general visual impression)
>>>  ... any others?
>>>
>> Hi Bernhard and Christoph,
> I've added your respective comments on the motif page and listed the
> "previous attempts" list Bernhard summarised above (but haven't linked any
> because I'm short on time).
>
>
>  Thanks for the nice collection - "close to motif" had been used for the
>> presentation template. The outline of the triangles in the
>> background ...
>>
>> http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/10/libreoffice-presentation-template-first.html
>>
>> There is one item which is even less a motiv, but repeated throughout
>> many of the graphics for the software: a non-symmetrical circular color
>> gradient, and some linear gradients in the "header" and "footer". An
>> early version:
>>
>> http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/11/libreoffice-33-artwork-improvements.html
>>
> I'm glad to include these on the page, but we should expect that these
> previous elements will have no significant bearing on the Motif
> yet-to-be-designed.
> I don't like carrying-over elements just because they have been used, I
> think it would be better to craft new elements from scratch with clear
> purpose+intentions+context from the beginning.
>
>> Cheers,
>> Christoph
>>
>>  Looking forward to some sexy motif proposals real soon crew!
> -Nik
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout

[Jaron Kuppers]

Hi all,

I like both ideas but lean towards Andrews suggestion.

I would like to instead propose a different approach but perhaps from a
coding perspective it would not be an "easy hack."  There was discussion
over the years on the OOo list about changing the background from the dull
gray to something more upbeat.  Perhaps the 'shadow' could be integrated
into a new customization feature that allows the user to change the
background and the shadow.  Unfortunately, I can't recall how difficult this
is... (I seem to recall some large problem in the code that made this
difficult, but it may have been an issue).

Cheers,
Jaron





On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Andrew  wrote:

> On 04/03/11 07:42, Sébastien Le Ray wrote:
> > Le Thu, 03 Mar 2011 21:35:11 +0100,
> > Christoph Noack  a écrit :
> >
> >> Hi Sébastien, hi all!
> >>
> >
> > Hi
> >
> >> Am Donnerstag, den 03.03.2011, 14:16 +0100 schrieb Sébastien Le Ray:
> >>> Le Thu, 03 Mar 2011 11:59:19 +,
> >>> Michael Meeks  a écrit :
> >>>
> > [...]
> >>
> >> Although I didn't see it yet, thanks for your work - I'm really
> >> looking forward.
> >
> > You can find a screenshot on
> > http://misc.orniz.org/libreoffice/lo-shadow.png book mode is also
> > handled nicely...
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >
> >> However, I'd like to provide some pointers to the Notes stuff - it's
> >> really worth spending some time digging through some of the
> >> descriptions (in my point-of-view). I think this is better than
> >> pre-process most of the stuff, since I'm unaware of your likings :-)
> >>
> >> The notes main wiki page (Notes2 because of the CWS that time):
> >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2
> >>
> >> Here are the links to the detailed designs that had (sometimes) to be
> >> adapted due to technical constraints nobody spent the time for:
> >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2#Status_and_Proposals
> >>
> >> And once finished with the default stuff, we have lots of further
> >> ideas: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2_OtherIdeas
> >>
> >>
> >> Personally, I've already spend over one year with the Notes project
> >> being the UX representative, so I'd like to work with you on that - if
> >> you like :-)
> >
> > I'll be pleased to :) It'd be nice to have a "UI tasks" on libreoffice
> > wiki presenting all tasks that are ready on a Design point of view but
> > that have not yet been implemented.
> > There is a lot of stuff on the Note2 wiki page, could you give
> > priorities on various items?
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >>
> >> If you are generally interested in working on Usability / Visual
> >> Design topics (of course, from the developer's point-of-view - and we
> >> really need some understanding and support here), feel invited to
> >> subscribe to the Design Team mailing list - some more information can
> >> be found here: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design
> >
> > Subscribed yesterday :-)
> > It seems that you've been busy with more "marketting" stuff that UI
> > design lately to cover the launch of LO, FOSDEM and funraising
> >
> > Waiting for you priorities & mockups on notes work :-)
> >
> > Sébastien
> >
> >
>
> Hi All and Sebastien :)
>
> Regarding that patch, I think that what we have in that screenshot is a
> definite improvement, but I feel we could do better, and hopefully
> without a lot more work.
>
> If you look at the mockup I attached to the bug report, I feel this
> looks a lot more modern and professional.
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39920
>
> I feel if instead of having that shadow aligned to the bottom left,
> instead it is centred on the page, and we have a slightly larger blur
> radius we can make it look a lot better.
>
> Is this just me, or do other think this as well?
>
> --
> Andrew
>
> --
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[libreoffice-design] Video Commercials - maybe

[drew]

Hi,

Some video clips from last weeks LibreOffice booth at the Southern
California Linux Expo.

http://baseanswers.com/libo/scale_vids/I_absolutely_support_Libo.ogv
http://baseanswers.com/libo/scale_vids/Love_the_OSx_exp.ogv
http://baseanswers.com/libo/scale_vids/Two_months_ago.ogv
http://baseanswers.com/libo/scale_vids/mac_user_2.ogv
http://baseanswers.com/libo/scale_vids/casual_user.ogv
http://baseanswers.com/libo/scale_vids/600Lb_gorilla.ogv
http://baseanswers.com/libo/scale_vids/Invite_to_SELF.ogv
http://baseanswers.com/libo/scale_vids/OOO_out_LibO_in.ogv
http://baseanswers.com/libo/scale_vids/used_by_scale_staff.ogv
http://baseanswers.com/libo/scale_vids/Its_fantastic.ogv


Here is a work in progress - PLEASE DO NOT COPY this one YET-
need to do this via the design folks and I'm they may
change the opening and closing but at some point this style is what I
would rather put up to the permanent repository(s)

http://baseanswers.com/libo/scale_vids/TDF_Love_the_OSx_exp_720p.ogv

So any ideas on openings, closings, which ones to use..the like.

Actually - I would really like to just pass this off to someone, if
there is anyone that can clean up the color balance and wants to edit
this to a killer video...have at it - I will release the videos under CC
3 Share-alike with remix, or whatever the actual verbiage is on that
license.

Also if the original mp4 files are better for you I can move them to the
server also.

Oh I noticed a survey at a German Linux site about office suite, LibO is
kicking it...you must all be so happy - your creation is a huge hit.

Thanks

Drew


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice official color names

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Nik, all!

Just some short comments on this issue as well, because I'd like to
finally answer Andras question  ... :-) 

Am Samstag, den 05.03.2011, 04:10 +1100 schrieb Nik:
> Can I butt-in for a second on just one issue; ...

Of course :-)

> On 3/3/2011 9:33 AM, Christoph Noack wrote:
> > Am Mittwoch, den 02.03.2011, 23:00 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
[...]
> >> In my eyes 80% grey (#33) is dark enough to look distinct from the
> >> lighter tone, but is recognized as "not black".

> It is simply music to my ears to hear you say that Bernhard =)

[...]

> Can we finally put this to bed and move to a dark-grey instead of black? 
> reasons;
> - Black is unfriendly
> - Black creates a negative emphasis on contrast (especially given the 
> simplicity of the shapes in the logo)
> - Makes text "stick out" rather than "blend in"
> - The Green doesn't match the black comfortably, but matches the greys well
> - Printing dark grey is not an issue (including the mono version)
> - Using Grey, especially in gradient, creates the perception of lighting

Since you name it - there is not only printing, but also stitching and
such stuff. That's the reason for having the basic (okay: plain) logo
that cares about the essential things like shape and simple colors.
Based on that logo, a "contemporary" variant can be derived and even
slightly altered according to "fashion needs".

So - to me - it would be okay to agree on "dark gray" (also for the
plain logo), if:
  * it fits to the visual impression on all media (product, website,
letter heads, ...)
  * black is an exception when it comes to special production
methods like stitching or coating (sometimes dark gray is not an
option)

Personally, I think we should start to collect such tiny logo issues in
the wiki and update all in one "rush" - to save some effort.


> Black text on white background = default = no thought given to 
> appropriateness of message = no design effort made.

Depends on the message ;-)

[...]

> >> We could add "LibreGrey 2" and "LibreGrey 3", but I don't think this is
> >> necessary for the LibO palette.
> > Mmh, I got lost a bit ... if I understood it correctly, you discuss the
> > logo instead of the color palette to be included in / translated for
> > LibreOffice.
> >
> > Concerning the former, the black is still fine for the Basic logo for
> > various reasons. Indeed, the Contemporary logo features the different
> > gray shadings (and is the only one as far as I remember).
> >
> We shouldn't have "contemporary" and "plain" versions! that will only 
> cause inconsistencies.
> Why aren't we just moving over to the contemporary version as the /main/ 
> logo?
> The plain logo has no benefit over the contemporary version and 
> switching them will not create confusion, they are essentially the same 
> thing (to end users).

If we would only provide the logo on screens and on high quality
printouts, I would agree. But we have also other promotional material
(like the large banners) that need to be printed in simple and plain
colors. So - to me - there is not only a real benefit in providing the
plain version; it is essential. But we want to express our default
choice - that should be simple.

So how about the following logos...
"Basic/Plain" (defines basic color and shape)
  * Derived "contemporary --> LibreOffice "preferred" logo
(highlighted on the branding page)
  * Derived "grayscale" (like today)
  * Derived "black/white" (like today)
  * Derived "inverted" (like today)

>From my point-of-view, most of the confusion is created by those people
who copy the logo from other locations in the web - and sometimes even
modifying them. G.

Does that sound reasonable?

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout

[Sébastien Le Ray]

Le Fri, 4 Mar 2011 14:44:21 -0500,
Jaron Kuppers  a écrit :

> Hi all,
> 
> I like both ideas but lean towards Andrews suggestion.
> 
> I would like to instead propose a different approach but perhaps from
> a coding perspective it would not be an "easy hack."  There was
> discussion over the years on the OOo list about changing the
> background from the dull gray to something more upbeat.  Perhaps the
> 'shadow' could be integrated into a new customization feature that
> allows the user to change the background and the shadow.
> Unfortunately, I can't recall how difficult this is... (I seem to
> recall some large problem in the code that made this difficult, but
> it may have been an issue).
> 
> Cheers,
> Jaron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Andrew  wrote:
> 
> > On 04/03/11 07:42, Sébastien Le Ray wrote:
> > > Le Thu, 03 Mar 2011 21:35:11 +0100,
> > > Christoph Noack  a écrit :
> > >
> > >> Hi Sébastien, hi all!
> > >>
> > >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > >> Am Donnerstag, den 03.03.2011, 14:16 +0100 schrieb Sébastien Le
> > >> Ray:
> > >>> Le Thu, 03 Mar 2011 11:59:19 +,
> > >>> Michael Meeks  a écrit :
> > >>>
> > > [...]
> > >>
> > >> Although I didn't see it yet, thanks for your work - I'm really
> > >> looking forward.
> > >
> > > You can find a screenshot on
> > > http://misc.orniz.org/libreoffice/lo-shadow.png book mode is also
> > > handled nicely...
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > >
> > >> However, I'd like to provide some pointers to the Notes stuff -
> > >> it's really worth spending some time digging through some of the
> > >> descriptions (in my point-of-view). I think this is better than
> > >> pre-process most of the stuff, since I'm unaware of your
> > >> likings :-)
> > >>
> > >> The notes main wiki page (Notes2 because of the CWS that time):
> > >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2
> > >>
> > >> Here are the links to the detailed designs that had (sometimes)
> > >> to be adapted due to technical constraints nobody spent the time
> > >> for:
> > >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2#Status_and_Proposals
> > >>
> > >> And once finished with the default stuff, we have lots of further
> > >> ideas: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2_OtherIdeas
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Personally, I've already spend over one year with the Notes
> > >> project being the UX representative, so I'd like to work with
> > >> you on that - if you like :-)
> > >
> > > I'll be pleased to :) It'd be nice to have a "UI tasks" on
> > > libreoffice wiki presenting all tasks that are ready on a Design
> > > point of view but that have not yet been implemented.
> > > There is a lot of stuff on the Note2 wiki page, could you give
> > > priorities on various items?
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > >>
> > >> If you are generally interested in working on Usability / Visual
> > >> Design topics (of course, from the developer's point-of-view -
> > >> and we really need some understanding and support here), feel
> > >> invited to subscribe to the Design Team mailing list - some more
> > >> information can be found here:
> > >> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design
> > >
> > > Subscribed yesterday :-)
> > > It seems that you've been busy with more "marketting" stuff that
> > > UI design lately to cover the launch of LO, FOSDEM and funraising
> > >
> > > Waiting for you priorities & mockups on notes work :-)
> > >
> > > Sébastien
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Hi All and Sebastien :)
> >
> > Regarding that patch, I think that what we have in that screenshot
> > is a definite improvement, but I feel we could do better, and
> > hopefully without a lot more work.
> >
> > If you look at the mockup I attached to the bug report, I feel this
> > looks a lot more modern and professional.
> > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39920

Pretty interesting... I first implemented the "4 borders" shadow but
every people I show it said "it's strange, the shadow should be only
under two borders".

> >
> > I feel if instead of having that shadow aligned to the bottom left,
> > instead it is centred on the page, and we have a slightly larger
> > blur radius we can make it look a lot better.
> >
> > Is this just me, or do other think this as well?
> >

Now that the code is present, we can use almost any image. Shadow is
divided in 4 parts: top right, right, bottom right,  bottom, bottom
left. If you can provide other images I could integrate them (those
ones where more "proof of concept" ones.


> > --
> > Andrew


Regards

Sebastien

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RE: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout

[Daniel Merker]

Hi,

Just a thought. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the background be the 
primary color of that application. For example, the Writer would have a blue 
tinted background with a shadow (I like the shadow on all sides), and Impress 
would have an organge tinted background with the same shadow around the slide. 
This should help tie in the color theme and help build on a general motif.

-Daniel Merker

-Original Message-
From: Sébastien Le Ray [mailto:sebast...@orniz.org] 
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 4:01 PM
To: design@libreoffice.org
Cc: jaronba...@gmail.com; Andrew
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - 
Improve default page layout

Le Fri, 4 Mar 2011 14:44:21 -0500,
Jaron Kuppers  a écrit :

> Hi all,
> 
> I like both ideas but lean towards Andrews suggestion.
> 
> I would like to instead propose a different approach but perhaps from 
> a coding perspective it would not be an "easy hack."  There was 
> discussion over the years on the OOo list about changing the 
> background from the dull gray to something more upbeat.  Perhaps the 
> 'shadow' could be integrated into a new customization feature that 
> allows the user to change the background and the shadow.
> Unfortunately, I can't recall how difficult this is... (I seem to 
> recall some large problem in the code that made this difficult, but it 
> may have been an issue).
> 
> Cheers,
> Jaron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Andrew  wrote:
> 
> > On 04/03/11 07:42, Sébastien Le Ray wrote:
> > > Le Thu, 03 Mar 2011 21:35:11 +0100, Christoph Noack 
> > >  a écrit :
> > >
> > >> Hi Sébastien, hi all!
> > >>
> > >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > >> Am Donnerstag, den 03.03.2011, 14:16 +0100 schrieb Sébastien Le
> > >> Ray:
> > >>> Le Thu, 03 Mar 2011 11:59:19 +, Michael Meeks 
> > >>>  a écrit :
> > >>>
> > > [...]
> > >>
> > >> Although I didn't see it yet, thanks for your work - I'm really 
> > >> looking forward.
> > >
> > > You can find a screenshot on
> > > http://misc.orniz.org/libreoffice/lo-shadow.png book mode is also 
> > > handled nicely...
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > >
> > >> However, I'd like to provide some pointers to the Notes stuff - 
> > >> it's really worth spending some time digging through some of the 
> > >> descriptions (in my point-of-view). I think this is better than 
> > >> pre-process most of the stuff, since I'm unaware of your likings 
> > >> :-)
> > >>
> > >> The notes main wiki page (Notes2 because of the CWS that time):
> > >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2
> > >>
> > >> Here are the links to the detailed designs that had (sometimes) 
> > >> to be adapted due to technical constraints nobody spent the time
> > >> for:
> > >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2#Status_and_Propos
> > >> als
> > >>
> > >> And once finished with the default stuff, we have lots of further
> > >> ideas: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2_OtherIdeas
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Personally, I've already spend over one year with the Notes 
> > >> project being the UX representative, so I'd like to work with you 
> > >> on that - if you like :-)
> > >
> > > I'll be pleased to :) It'd be nice to have a "UI tasks" on 
> > > libreoffice wiki presenting all tasks that are ready on a Design 
> > > point of view but that have not yet been implemented.
> > > There is a lot of stuff on the Note2 wiki page, could you give 
> > > priorities on various items?
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > >>
> > >> If you are generally interested in working on Usability / Visual 
> > >> Design topics (of course, from the developer's point-of-view - 
> > >> and we really need some understanding and support here), feel 
> > >> invited to subscribe to the Design Team mailing list - some more 
> > >> information can be found here:
> > >> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design
> > >
> > > Subscribed yesterday :-)
> > > It seems that you've been busy with more "marketting" stuff that 
> > > UI design lately to cover the launch of LO, FOSDEM and funraising
> > >
> > > Waiting for you priorities & mockups on notes work :-)
> > >
> > > Sébastien
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Hi All and Sebastien :)
> >
> > Regarding that patch, I think that what we have in that screenshot 
> > is a definite improvement, but I feel we could do better, and 
> > hopefully without a lot more work.
> >
> > If you look at the mockup I attached to the bug report, I feel this 
> > looks a lot more modern and professional.
> > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39920

Pretty interesting... I first implemented the "4 borders" shadow but every 
people I show it said "it's strange, the shadow should be only under two 
borders".

> >
> > I feel if instead of having that shadow aligned to the bottom left, 
> > instead it is centred on the page, and we have a slightly larger 
> > blur radius we can make it look a lot better.
> >
> > Is this just me, or do other think this as well?
> >

Now that the code is present, we can use 

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice official color names

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Christoph, Nik, all,

Christoph Noack schrieb:

Hi Nik, all!

Just some short comments on this issue as well, because I'd like to
finally answer Andras question  ... :-)


Sorry for mixing up two different topics - but I found them related when 
thinking of official names...


Am Samstag, den 05.03.2011, 04:10 +1100 schrieb Nik:

Can I butt-in for a second on just one issue; ...


Of course :-)


On 3/3/2011 9:33 AM, Christoph Noack wrote:

Am Mittwoch, den 02.03.2011, 23:00 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:

[...]

In my eyes 80% grey (#33) is dark enough to look distinct from the
lighter tone, but is recognized as "not black".



It is simply music to my ears to hear you say that Bernhard =)


[...]


Can we finally put this to bed and move to a dark-grey instead of black?
reasons;
- Black is unfriendly
- Black creates a negative emphasis on contrast (especially given the
simplicity of the shapes in the logo)
- Makes text "stick out" rather than "blend in"
- The Green doesn't match the black comfortably, but matches the greys well
- Printing dark grey is not an issue (including the mono version)
- Using Grey, especially in gradient, creates the perception of lighting


Since you name it - there is not only printing, but also stitching and
such stuff. That's the reason for having the basic (okay: plain) logo
that cares about the essential things like shape and simple colors.
Based on that logo, a "contemporary" variant can be derived and even
slightly altered according to "fashion needs".


I'd change the naming a bit in order to define the "contemporary logo" 
as the basis of all derived logos. As the logo image is not trademarked, 
we can modify it according the needs of our community.




So - to me - it would be okay to agree on "dark gray" (also for the
plain logo), if:
   * it fits to the visual impression on all media (product, website,
 letter heads, ...)
   * black is an exception when it comes to special production
 methods like stitching or coating (sometimes dark gray is not an
 option)

Personally, I think we should start to collect such tiny logo issues in
the wiki and update all in one "rush" - to save some effort.


+1




[...]


So how about the following logos...
"Basic/Plain" (defines basic color and shape)
   * Derived "contemporary -->  LibreOffice "preferred" logo
 (highlighted on the branding page)
   * Derived "grayscale" (like today)
   * Derived "black/white" (like today)
   * Derived "inverted" (like today)


I'd switch it:

Main logo: present "contemporary logo"

   Derived "plain colors logo" (dark grey and green)
   Derived "greyscale logo"
   Derived "black logo" (today: black/white)
   Derived "white logo" (today: inverted)

   Derived "green/black logo" (today: basic) for special needs.

I don't understand where dark grey is an issue and green isn't, but if 
someone needs such a logo, we can provide it.


But we definitely should provide the spot colors of our color palette, 
so people know about the colors we want to be used on physical banners 
and the like.



From my point-of-view, most of the confusion is created by those people

who copy the logo from other locations in the web - and sometimes even
modifying them. G.


Did you already find examples on LibreOffice? (I remember really 
horrible ones from OOo)


Best regards

Bernhard

PS: And if we agree on 80% Grey for our logo, I'd propose to give it a 
LibO name (LibreGrey 1) in our palette.


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Re: [libreoffice-design] confusing status of grid enabled (fdo#31471)

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Petr, hi Rainer and all the others!

Before I start, please let me clarify something - maybe I wasn't that
clear in my previous mail ...

The current LibO behavior is buggy, for sure. But the strange behavior
isn't based on the missing "we know how it should work" (the
specification). LibreOffice just misses to correctly implement the
behavior - and as I said yesterday, OOo does behave fine in this case.


Am Freitag, den 04.03.2011, 14:02 +0100 schrieb Petr Mladek:
> Christoph Noack píše v Čt 03. 03. 2011 v 21:58 +0100:
> > Am Donnerstag, den 03.03.2011, 21:28 +0100 schrieb Petr Mladek:

> > > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31471 . The menu icon for
> > > grid enabled/disabled is confusing. We would like to use a normal check
> > > box instead. I hope that it does not break any design rules ;-)
> > 
> > Well, it does :-) Here is the (very short) OOo spec how Menus are
> > styled, along with the description of checkmarks vs. images:
> > http://specs.openoffice.org/ui_in_general/menus/Menus.odt
> 
> Well, I see there that both item images and checkmarks are allowed. I do
> not see any rule when to use image and when checkmark.

It is derived on a case-by-case basis. The usual case: If a features is
often used and thus available in the toolbars, then the menu re-uses the
same icon. This should ease the learning for the user, because toolbars
miss text (in OOo) - but the menu items can help to explain the icons.

But, it would be the wrong assumption that more icons in the menus do
help more - they serve as visual anchors for the user. So the usual
recommendation is to only use a few icons within the menus to keep this
"characteristic".


> Hmm, I do not like the checkmark specification. IMHO, it is more clear
> to show empty box when the menu item is disabled. I see this (mine
> preference) behavior in View/Toolbars/ menu.

Here, I have to assume that you refer to the picture in the
specification. The specification text states: "Unchecked menu items
without an item image will be drawn without any special markings,
leaving an empty place in the first column of the menu." So no issue -
at least to me :-)


> > Concerning the issue, I can confirm some weird behavior in LibO 3.3.1 -
> > but, everything is fine in OOo 3.2.0 (quickly checked). I don't know why
> > "we" cause this issue ...
> 
> What is the correct behavior?
> 
> I have attached screenshots that shows the current behavior on Linux
> GNOME x86_64. It shows the grid icon when the grid is disabled. It shows
> nothing when the grid is enabled. I think that it does not follow the
> specification. It should always show the grid and visualize
> (border/background) whether it is selected or not.

Correct, it should always show the icon.

Thanks for the screenshots - I also created some and added it to the bug
report. Direct link:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=44142

By the way, thanks for already referring there to this mail thread.

> Note that the same problem is with the "Snap to Grid" menu item. The
> icon nicely visualize the purpose but it not shown when the feature is
> enabled.
> 
> Note that "Grid to front" menu item uses the checkmark, so it looks
> weird.

True, but I also would omit a picture for that feature - so at least
here, it behaves according the defined behavior.

> > Furthermore, there might be an additional issue when using one of the
> > newer Linux distributions, since Gnome decided to deactivate the images
> > in the menus. Thus, the images have to be replaced by real checkboxes,
> > although the specification above is different in this case.
> 
> I use GNOME and I see icons on many menu locations.

It is based on a gconf configuration item; the Gnome default is "off".
Maybe the distribution turned it on ...

Here is what the Gnome Design Team wrote about it:
http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103

(By the way, I don't agree to all statements in his blog posting, it is
just to explain the Gnome behavior).

> > So, how to continue? Could anyone please check with a more recent OOo
> > 3.3 - maybe on different platforms?
> > 
> > Petr, might it make more sense to continue this discussion in the issue
> > tracker?
> 
> I would prefer to continue the discussion in bugzilla. It will be easier
> to get input from users that are interested into that particular bug.
> 
> On the other hand, if you expect a flamewar inside the design team, it
> might be enough to discuss it here and just mention a link to the
> mailing list archive in the bug.

Hehe ;-) I don't think this has to be a flamewar ... I'll post the
important information to the bug tracker, but the more talkative
explanations may make more sense on this list.


> > PS: I had to moderate this mail, so - if anybody joins to answer, please
> > CC all guys.
> 
> Thanks. I would prefer to do not subscribe. I am already in too many
> lists that I do not read actively ;-)

Of course - so we'll CC you in such cases. Thanks for the hint!

> Thanks for help.

Sh

[libreoffice-design] Design Team Kick-Off Step 4: Organizing our Work (... causing some work for you *g*)

[Christoph Noack]

Dear Design Team,

a few days ago, we've presented "us" to the rest of the (LibreOffice)
world. Now it's time to go to the next step ... organizing our work.

Here and there, I've already noticed some questions with regard to how
people expect we work, and what we might need to work efficiently and
effectively. Some examples (as far as I remember):
  * Marc asked how we can be triggered to create artwork, and how we
make sure that these visual designs are approved.
  * Rainer/Petr had the idea to involve us concerning a behavioral
question. That's great - but this should be too
"incidentally" :-)
  * Nik asked for a motif (he already kicked of that effort, but
anyway) and proposed to highlight long-term contributors to
better guide the team
  * ...

So, how can we do that? Personally, I'd like you to speak up first. What
are your experiences until now? What did you learn in other FLOSS
projects? What do you miss ...

I've created a new wiki page for that - please feel free to add your
thoughts. I also provided a more extensive introduction and a proposal
for the text steps along with some roughly guessed times:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Kick-Off/WhatWeNeed#Introduction

Any further thoughts on that topic? Speak up, please. This is your
project! :-)

Cheers,
Christoph

PS: And as usual, the Design Team Kick-Off Overview Wiki page
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Kick-Off


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice official color names

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Christoph,

just a short note on the names...

Christoph Noack schrieb:

Hi Bernhard, all!

Am Mittwoch, den 02.03.2011, 23:00 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
[...]

In the LibO case, I'd go for "adding Libre" - you take?
(+1/-1/0)


Therefore I vote with +1.

But I'd prefer "LibreGreen 1" over "Libre Green 1", because without
the space "LibreGreen" is a name, while in "Libre Green" libre can
be understood as descriptive adjective.


True, but removing the whitespace makes it less readable ...


I don't think this is an important issue, as it should be a descriptive 
name rather than a color accompanied by a leading adjective and a 
following number.


We decided to call our product LibreOffice, even if Google finds more 
"Libre Office" than "LibreOffice", this seems to be quite similar. I 
think it is inconsistent and a neglected marketing chance, if we add a 
space between "Libre" and the color.


But I'm not an UX-expert, so I have to believe you that people will not 
be able to understand LibreGreen as easy as Libre Green.



originally, we had this kind of naming, but since we added more
colors, it became an issue to me - when I've created the palettes for
LibreOffice and Inkscape.
http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/10/united-colors-of-liberty.html


Looking at these colors, I find out, that I like the previous color 
names better than the present ones:


Orange is not really orange - Marron has been more exact.

Yellow is not yellow at all - Ocher might be the right description.



To be consistent, we should use "LibreGreen Accent" instead of
"Green Accent" - OpenGrok shows the latter.


OpenGrok is okay, since I asked for that name when it got integrated
;-)


But the other colors seems to have been integrated with "Libre" - did 
you do this on purpose?


http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/extras/extras/source/palettes/libreoffice.soc

The Inkscape palette I use doesn't contain any "Libre", so they are 
different.


But in future all the palettes (LibO, Inkscape, GIMP) will use the same 
naming... :-)



[...]

2. The gray shades are missing in the table - these are not
necessarily part of the official branding palette, but very
helpful when working on documents (rationale: changing palettes
in LibO is still time consuming, so the basic colors should be
included).


I think we should define two grey values as "LibreGrey" (or
"LibreGray"). One should be the grey tone of the lighter part in
the greyscale logo. As it is the equivalent to "LibreGreen" (as
official LibO color "LibreGreen 1" might be called this way IMHO),
I'd call it "LibreGrey 1".


The name "Green 1" has some historic reasons, since - originally -
it was the darkest green. The "Green 0" was some mysterious
workaround to keep the name, since it already had been used
extensively. Thus, the number marks the "intensity" of the color.

To provide additional information, I've used the "Comment" section
in the spreadsheet table. If you look at the Inkscape palette, hover
the "LibreGreen 1" item and Inkscape will show "LibreGreen 1
(LibreOffice Main Color)".


Here it shows "Green 1 (LibreOffice Main Color)".

We should use this feature for the official grey too.


So for such kind of information, I propose to keep this kind of
naming scheme.[...]


If we include the basic colors in the palette, more grey values are
as important as the main colors.


True, that's what I've suggested - the LibreOffice color palette
available in the wiki does feature all these gray values; equally to
the Inkscape palette.


I've been wondering, if we should add plain colors (red, green, blue, 
yellow, orange, violet) to the LibO palette too, because they might be 
used for marking etc. We don't have red at all...


But on the other hand they don't fit with the LibreOffice colors, so I'd 
avoid such a mixture.


What do you think?


I'll add the source code at the end of the mail
- for easier reference.
[...]


I don't know if a break is allowed in an .soc file, if so, I'd add one 
behind the first entry: This would lead to better readability, as every 
definition is shown in it's own line.


And didn't you vote for adding "Libre"? (Even if you want to keep it as 
single word...)


If we agree on the dark grey , I'd like to add "(LibreOffice Color)" or 
"LibreGrey 1" (or something similar) to the name.


And one more point:

While the default UI language is "English (USA)" the standard color 
palette as well as your proposal use the British English spelling "Gray" 
instead of "Grey".


Best regards

Bernhard





=== LibreOffice_Initial-Branding-Colors.soc ===

   





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Re: [libreoffice-design] Video Commercials - maybe

[drew]

> Oh I noticed a survey at a German Linux site about office suite, LibO is
> kicking it...you must all be so happy - your creation is a huge hit.
> 

*Pause for effect over*

So why did I say your creation and not our creation?

Remembering that this was a hard core Linux group, and many if not most
in the business, not mere end users.

During a good number of conversations, over a dozen, there was a common
theme, it went something like this:

"Tried LibO 3.3 (beta/stable) - was OK"

"Pulled down 3.3.1 - Yes - OO.o is off my machine"

It was the changes to the look, the icons, the other subtle changes, not
a single person mentioned a bug in 3.3.0 that held them back.

That my friends is you guys - the graphic designers - you did one hell
of a job and as we might say here - Hit it out of the park!

Best wishes,

Drew


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[libreoffice-design] Replace the quickstarter icon (Linux system tray icon) ?

[minhsien0330]

Hello,
Now we have great new MIME icons on LibreOffice 3.3.1, but the quickstarter
icon on system tray still "a circle with two flying birds".
"A circle with two flying birds" still looks like Openoffice.org, but not
LibreOffice.
Will this old quickstarter tray icon be replaced with new icon?
(My system: Debian testing + LibO_3.3.1_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz )

Thanks,
Minhsien0330

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout

[Hillar Liiv]

Hi,

I have made some mockup to show how different shadows look alike:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Docshadows.png
Which looks best?

With startup style shadow:
http://ubuntuone.com/p/S53/

Hillar



2011/3/4 Daniel Merker 

> Hi,
>
> Just a thought. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the background be the
> primary color of that application. For example, the Writer would have a blue
> tinted background with a shadow (I like the shadow on all sides), and
> Impress would have an organge tinted background with the same shadow around
> the slide. This should help tie in the color theme and help build on a
> general motif.
>
> -Daniel Merker
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sébastien Le Ray [mailto:sebast...@orniz.org]
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 4:01 PM
> To: design@libreoffice.org
> Cc: jaronba...@gmail.com; Andrew
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] [PUSHED] fdo#31251 -
> Improve default page layout
>
> Le Fri, 4 Mar 2011 14:44:21 -0500,
> Jaron Kuppers  a écrit :
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I like both ideas but lean towards Andrews suggestion.
> >
> > I would like to instead propose a different approach but perhaps from
> > a coding perspective it would not be an "easy hack."  There was
> > discussion over the years on the OOo list about changing the
> > background from the dull gray to something more upbeat.  Perhaps the
> > 'shadow' could be integrated into a new customization feature that
> > allows the user to change the background and the shadow.
> > Unfortunately, I can't recall how difficult this is... (I seem to
> > recall some large problem in the code that made this difficult, but it
> > may have been an issue).
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jaron
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Andrew  wrote:
> >
> > > On 04/03/11 07:42, Sébastien Le Ray wrote:
> > > > Le Thu, 03 Mar 2011 21:35:11 +0100, Christoph Noack
> > > >  a écrit :
> > > >
> > > >> Hi Sébastien, hi all!
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > >> Am Donnerstag, den 03.03.2011, 14:16 +0100 schrieb Sébastien Le
> > > >> Ray:
> > > >>> Le Thu, 03 Mar 2011 11:59:19 +, Michael Meeks
> > > >>>  a écrit :
> > > >>>
> > > > [...]
> > > >>
> > > >> Although I didn't see it yet, thanks for your work - I'm really
> > > >> looking forward.
> > > >
> > > > You can find a screenshot on
> > > > http://misc.orniz.org/libreoffice/lo-shadow.png book mode is also
> > > > handled nicely...
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> However, I'd like to provide some pointers to the Notes stuff -
> > > >> it's really worth spending some time digging through some of the
> > > >> descriptions (in my point-of-view). I think this is better than
> > > >> pre-process most of the stuff, since I'm unaware of your likings
> > > >> :-)
> > > >>
> > > >> The notes main wiki page (Notes2 because of the CWS that time):
> > > >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2
> > > >>
> > > >> Here are the links to the detailed designs that had (sometimes)
> > > >> to be adapted due to technical constraints nobody spent the time
> > > >> for:
> > > >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2#Status_and_Propos
> > > >> als
> > > >>
> > > >> And once finished with the default stuff, we have lots of further
> > > >> ideas: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2_OtherIdeas
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Personally, I've already spend over one year with the Notes
> > > >> project being the UX representative, so I'd like to work with you
> > > >> on that - if you like :-)
> > > >
> > > > I'll be pleased to :) It'd be nice to have a "UI tasks" on
> > > > libreoffice wiki presenting all tasks that are ready on a Design
> > > > point of view but that have not yet been implemented.
> > > > There is a lot of stuff on the Note2 wiki page, could you give
> > > > priorities on various items?
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> If you are generally interested in working on Usability / Visual
> > > >> Design topics (of course, from the developer's point-of-view -
> > > >> and we really need some understanding and support here), feel
> > > >> invited to subscribe to the Design Team mailing list - some more
> > > >> information can be found here:
> > > >> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design
> > > >
> > > > Subscribed yesterday :-)
> > > > It seems that you've been busy with more "marketting" stuff that
> > > > UI design lately to cover the launch of LO, FOSDEM and funraising
> > > >
> > > > Waiting for you priorities & mockups on notes work :-)
> > > >
> > > > Sébastien
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hi All and Sebastien :)
> > >
> > > Regarding that patch, I think that what we have in that screenshot
> > > is a definite improvement, but I feel we could do better, and
> > > hopefully without a lot more work.
> > >
> > > If you look at the mockup I attached to the bug report, I feel this
> > > looks a lot more modern and professional.
> > > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39920
>
> Pretty intere

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice official color names

[Hillar Liiv]

Hi,

One thing about palette: it should use one color 10 different modes, not 8.
Then its better to use, compare:
1. http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/1/1b/Rpalette.png(some
libreoffice colors with 10 different color mods, with little mods)
2. 8 color mods: http://ubuntuone.com/p/aFj/ very unbalanced.

Hillar

2011/3/5 Bernhard Dippold 

> Hi Christoph,
>
> just a short note on the names...
>
> Christoph Noack schrieb:
>
>> Hi Bernhard, all!
>>
>>
>> Am Mittwoch, den 02.03.2011, 23:00 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
>> [...]
>>
>>> In the LibO case, I'd go for "adding Libre" - you take?
 (+1/-1/0)

>>>
>>> Therefore I vote with +1.
>>>
>>> But I'd prefer "LibreGreen 1" over "Libre Green 1", because without
>>> the space "LibreGreen" is a name, while in "Libre Green" libre can
>>> be understood as descriptive adjective.
>>>
>>
>> True, but removing the whitespace makes it less readable ...
>>
>
> I don't think this is an important issue, as it should be a descriptive
> name rather than a color accompanied by a leading adjective and a following
> number.
>
> We decided to call our product LibreOffice, even if Google finds more
> "Libre Office" than "LibreOffice", this seems to be quite similar. I think
> it is inconsistent and a neglected marketing chance, if we add a space
> between "Libre" and the color.
>
> But I'm not an UX-expert, so I have to believe you that people will not be
> able to understand LibreGreen as easy as Libre Green.
>
>  originally, we had this kind of naming, but since we added more
>> colors, it became an issue to me - when I've created the palettes for
>> LibreOffice and Inkscape.
>> http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/10/united-colors-of-liberty.html
>>
>
> Looking at these colors, I find out, that I like the previous color names
> better than the present ones:
>
> Orange is not really orange - Marron has been more exact.
>
> Yellow is not yellow at all - Ocher might be the right description.
>
>>
>>  To be consistent, we should use "LibreGreen Accent" instead of
>>> "Green Accent" - OpenGrok shows the latter.
>>>
>>
>> OpenGrok is okay, since I asked for that name when it got integrated
>> ;-)
>>
>
> But the other colors seems to have been integrated with "Libre" - did you
> do this on purpose?
>
>
> http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/extras/extras/source/palettes/libreoffice.soc
>
> The Inkscape palette I use doesn't contain any "Libre", so they are
> different.
>
> But in future all the palettes (LibO, Inkscape, GIMP) will use the same
> naming... :-)
>
>>
>>  [...]

 2. The gray shades are missing in the table - these are not
 necessarily part of the official branding palette, but very
 helpful when working on documents (rationale: changing palettes
 in LibO is still time consuming, so the basic colors should be
 included).

>>>
>>> I think we should define two grey values as "LibreGrey" (or
>>> "LibreGray"). One should be the grey tone of the lighter part in
>>> the greyscale logo. As it is the equivalent to "LibreGreen" (as
>>> official LibO color "LibreGreen 1" might be called this way IMHO),
>>> I'd call it "LibreGrey 1".
>>>
>>
>> The name "Green 1" has some historic reasons, since - originally -
>> it was the darkest green. The "Green 0" was some mysterious
>> workaround to keep the name, since it already had been used
>> extensively. Thus, the number marks the "intensity" of the color.
>>
>> To provide additional information, I've used the "Comment" section
>> in the spreadsheet table. If you look at the Inkscape palette, hover
>> the "LibreGreen 1" item and Inkscape will show "LibreGreen 1
>> (LibreOffice Main Color)".
>>
>
> Here it shows "Green 1 (LibreOffice Main Color)".
>
> We should use this feature for the official grey too.
>
>>
>> So for such kind of information, I propose to keep this kind of
>> naming scheme.[...]
>>
>>
>>  If we include the basic colors in the palette, more grey values are
>>> as important as the main colors.
>>>
>>
>> True, that's what I've suggested - the LibreOffice color palette
>> available in the wiki does feature all these gray values; equally to
>> the Inkscape palette.
>>
>
> I've been wondering, if we should add plain colors (red, green, blue,
> yellow, orange, violet) to the LibO palette too, because they might be used
> for marking etc. We don't have red at all...
>
> But on the other hand they don't fit with the LibreOffice colors, so I'd
> avoid such a mixture.
>
> What do you think?
>
>  I'll add the source code at the end of the mail
>> - for easier reference.
>> [...]
>>
>
> I don't know if a break is allowed in an .soc file, if so, I'd add one
> behind the first entry: This would lead to better readability, as every
> definition is shown in it's own line.
>
> And didn't you vote for adding "Libre"? (Even if you want to keep it as
> single word...)
>
> If we agree on the dark grey , I'd like to add "(LibreOffice Color)" or
> "LibreGrey 1" (or something similar) to the name.