Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
Excerpts from Olav Vitters's message of mar dic 28 22:18:19 +0100 2010: On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 05:53:35PM +0100, Carlos Garcia Campos wrote: Excerpts from Olav Vitters's message of mar dic 28 17:25:31 +0100 2010: Are you talking about the 3.0 version? I'd expect bonobo to be dropped for a 3.0 panel. I'm talking about gnome panel from git master, vuntz added support for bonobo applets to make the transition easier. Anyway, we need vuntz for the real answer. I'm not sure, but I think the idea was dropping bonobo support when most of applets are ported to dbus. Also for 2.x? For 3.0 I don't expect anything other than no bonobo, as bonobo is deprecated and we're dropping all deprecated stuff. There's no gnome-panel 3. My only wonder is regarding gnome-panel + applets being the fallback option.. so maybe somehow different rules apply. -- Carlos Garcia Campos PGP key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x523E6462 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
Le mardi 28 décembre 2010 à 16:53 +0100, Carlos Garcia Campos a écrit : Is the GNOME 3 panel compatible with the GNOME 2 applets? There's no gnome 3 panel, gnome-panel hasn't been ported to gtk3 yet, there's a branch but it's outdated and it still doesn't work. That’s good then. But does this panel work fine with the GNOME 3 components? Especially the new control-center ? -- .''`. : :' : “You would need to ask a lawyer if you don't know `. `' that a handshake of course makes a valid contract.” `--- J???rg Schilling ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
Excerpts from Emmanuele Bassi's message of mar dic 28 23:47:29 +0100 2010: On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 23:07 +0100, Luca Ferretti wrote: Il giorno mar, 28/12/2010 alle 16.50 +, Emmanuele Bassi ha scritto: On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 13:42 +, Sergey Udaltsov wrote: Sergey, who sometimes prefers to look backwards rather than forward no problem with that. you can maintain the old user experience for yourself and never upgrade. and snarkyness is never going to get you anything, mmkay? (cit.) :P it wasn't at all meant to be snarky[0], nor was I sarcastic in any way, shape or form. it is, in fact, an exact assessment of what anyone who wishes to keep the old user experience should do: there's no need to ever upgrade if the 2.x UX is doing the job. My only concern is people who *can't* use gnome-shell because of hardware requirements, and it isn't a matter of buying a new computer, my previous laptop was a modern one, but the nvidia card made imposssible to use gnome-shell for more than 5 minutes. So, my point is, if we want to provide a fallback for those people and we are going to use gnome-panel and metacity because they are already there, why not keeping the applets too for the same reason? If I couldn't use gnome-shell, I would still want to upgrade all other modules to 3.0 and use a fallback mode without loosing the weather applet, for example. +++ by the way, this whole thread is pretty angry and confrontational - or, at least, it feels a lot that way. the 3.x UX is not complete, and will probably take some development cycles to iterate over the various ideas that are being experimented; I think it's been implied many times, since we all know that the 2.x UX took years to reach the point where we had to chuck a lot of it away to make room for something that was designed from the ground up, instead of the result of convergent bumping around of ideas. I don't think anyone in the Shell team or in the gnome-design team has stopped taking into consideration new ideas - though, obviously, they have to balance that with the resources being what they are. this whole thread, like the *many* others that preceded it, has been fairly aggressive in the pushback of the new design - it doesn't implement that pet feature, it requires hardware capabilities that not every one is willing to commit to, etc. - and while on one side my initial reaction was to say: well, tough - here's a nickel kid, go buy yourself a better computer; and if you want to keep using gnome2 feel free to maintain the pieces you require; and if you don't want to, then there's the door: don't let the it kick you in the ass too hard on your way out; but that was just my initial reaction, and I'm *really* trying (and willing) to tune that down. might be that the old age is finally catching up on me. I understand the pushback to changes. I understand that something that was designed from the ground up is still missing some feature. I understand that that design calls for some drastic changes in how the user experience should be shaped, which means that some features will not be implemented. these are choices made by people that generally know what they are doing, and that have been trusted for years by the whole community of people that show up in GNOME. I'm pretty sure they haven't been replaced by pod people. I guess the same measure of trust should be still applied, even if we don't immediately see the endgame. if that measure of trust cannot, or will not, be applied then we can give up creating a coherent Operating System, and we can go back maintaining separate pieces of an OS, with small time collaboration between projects, and design deferred to drive-by ad horizontal patching done by heroes trying to drain the swamp. ciao, Emmanuele. [0] unlike the time when I replied to you with the phrase you quoted. -- Carlos Garcia Campos PGP key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x523E6462 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 12:43 AM, Carlos Garcia Campos carlo...@gnome.org wrote: If I couldn't use gnome-shell, I would still want to upgrade all other modules to 3.0 and use a fallback mode without loosing the weather applet, for example. The standard answer here seems to be: -- You may lose features in 3.0 *with* gnome-shell, and you may lose even more features in 3.0 *without* gnome-shell. These features will take time to return in 3.2, 3.4, etc. Folks who don't want to lose features like this should hold off on upgrading. -- This is paraphrasing what I've read from Jon McCann and others, hopefully without putting words in their mouths, and makes sense to me. It would be nice to see an official statement like this from the release team if it's accurate. Sandy ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 09:43 +0100, Carlos Garcia Campos wrote: it is, in fact, an exact assessment of what anyone who wishes to keep the old user experience should do: there's no need to ever upgrade if the 2.x UX is doing the job. My only concern is people who *can't* use gnome-shell because of hardware requirements, and it isn't a matter of buying a new computer, my previous laptop was a modern one, but the nvidia card made imposssible to use gnome-shell for more than 5 minutes. that is a driver bug; let's not conflate bugs with design choices. bugs gets fixed, eventually; in this case you're blocked by the fact that the driver in question is closed source, and the open source replacement for it is not yet mature enough. it is still, though, a driver bug. nvidia also used to have problem with xrender, making cairo (and gtk) slower - and yet nobody asked for a fallback drawing code path for gtk at the time. So, my point is, if we want to provide a fallback for those people and we are going to use gnome-panel and metacity because they are already there, why not keeping the applets too for the same reason? because resources are limited, and we cannot spread them evenly to all efforts otherwise GNOME 3.0 would never be released. if you are volunteering for porting gnome-panel and the applets to gtk3 and to the GNOME 3.x platform, then feel free to start filing patches; I'm pretty patches to port won't be rejected. gtk3 is entering its API/feature freeze phase, so it should be easier. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
El mié, 29-12-2010 a las 10:05 +, Emmanuele Bassi escribió: On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 09:43 +0100, Carlos Garcia Campos wrote: it is, in fact, an exact assessment of what anyone who wishes to keep the old user experience should do: there's no need to ever upgrade if the 2.x UX is doing the job. My only concern is people who *can't* use gnome-shell because of hardware requirements, and it isn't a matter of buying a new computer, my previous laptop was a modern one, but the nvidia card made imposssible to use gnome-shell for more than 5 minutes. that is a driver bug; let's not conflate bugs with design choices. bugs gets fixed, eventually; in this case you're blocked by the fact that the driver in question is closed source, and the open source replacement for it is not yet mature enough. it is still, though, a driver bug. This is not only affecting to some nvidia users, for example in my case, my father actively uses a PentiumIV with an ATI 9200 card and its 3D support was always... well, slow and very unstable. We are able to get some games like extreme-tuxracer or gl117 running (even torcs is so much for that and loses a lot of frames). But trying to run compiz or metacity with compositing enabled always lead to X crashing. Support for that ATI 9200 was always horrible, even knowing the efforts done, it is still behaving poorly with xf86-video-ati-6.13.1 The same occurred for me on a Dell Optiplex 360 that has an integrated Intel card, my tries for having stable 3D support for it failed (this occurred at mid 2009) and I finally opted for using a nVidia 9300 GE with propietary drivers that, with my experience, are the only one that caused me no problems for having a proper 3D support (and lead me to always try to have a nvidia card) nvidia also used to have problem with xrender, making cairo (and gtk) slower - and yet nobody asked for a fallback drawing code path for gtk at the time. So, my point is, if we want to provide a fallback for those people and we are going to use gnome-panel and metacity because they are already there, why not keeping the applets too for the same reason? because resources are limited, and we cannot spread them evenly to all efforts otherwise GNOME 3.0 would never be released. if you are volunteering for porting gnome-panel and the applets to gtk3 and to the GNOME 3.x platform, then feel free to start filing patches; I'm pretty patches to port won't be rejected. gtk3 is entering its API/feature freeze phase, so it should be easier. ciao, Emmanuele. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 15:19 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: It will be important to get people writing extensions before the release happens i think. (sorry went into marketing mode...!) I take the liberty of saying that as person who tried to write an extension (some time ago): - Lack of basic documentation. Reverse engineering C/JavaScript to write an extension (for example - how to use St) is very hard. - Lack of basic tutorials. There no Hello World tutorial, video or anything (at least linked from page). [I distinguish between step-by-step tutorial and detailed documentation] - High overhead of code - if I remember correctly adding button requires adding to 2 files (CSS and JS) - where button should be put/how it behaves and how does it look like. Other technologies (gtk+ + gtkbuilder, html+css+js) allows to work on the scaffolding first and then work on details. Possibly 'sane' defaults and primitives would help. - Lack of sandboxing. I'm not quite sure if and how it can be done but last time error crashed whole shell. Since JavaScript gives dellittle/delinsno/ins compile-time checks and errors do happen it would be helpful. Regards signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
Le mercredi 29 décembre 2010 à 00:54 -0800, Sandy Armstrong a écrit : You may lose features in 3.0 *with* gnome-shell, and you may lose even more features in 3.0 *without* gnome-shell. These features will take time to return in 3.2, 3.4, etc. Folks who don't want to lose features like this should hold off on upgrading. This answer is perfectly valid for those who compile their GNOME desktop by hand. For other people, it just moves the problem to the distributor. So, as a distribution packager, my question is: is it possible to package GNOME 3 components without breaking the GNOME 2 experience? If upgrading other major components to GNOME 3 breaks panel+metacity, we are left with few choices. 1. Packaging two versions of each component. Someone tried for the GNOME 1.2 → 2.0 transition, and this eventually failed miserably. 2. Dropping panel+metacity. Not going to happen for at least a release cycle. 3. Not packaging GNOME 3 for a while. Not what our users are expecting. So, if by upgrading g-c-c, g-s-d, g-session and other major components to 3.0, we are going to break g-panel, I’d like to know that now, not when it is too late and 3.0 has already been released. -- .''`. : :' : “You would need to ask a lawyer if you don't know `. `' that a handshake of course makes a valid contract.” `--- J???rg Schilling ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
Hi! So, if by upgrading g-c-c, g-s-d, g-session and other major components to 3.0, we are going to break g-panel, I’d like to know that now, not when it is too late and 3.0 has already been released. The gnome-panel shipped in fallback mode will/should work with GNOME 3 components. That's why it is called fallback mode. Regards, Johannes ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Xan Lopez x...@gnome.org wrote: On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Luca Ferretti lferr...@gnome.org wrote: Sergey, who sometimes prefers to look backwards rather than forward no problem with that. you can maintain the old user experience for yourself and never upgrade. and snarkyness is never going to get you anything, mmkay? (cit.) I believe it was a pretty reasonable answer considering the persistent angry tone of all the previous emails. You reap what you sow, and all that. Well I think one can feel a little frustrated hence the angry tone if there is a perception that there is no place for people who don't have the capabilities to run gnome 3.0 is. You'll only see more of this later. It's best to have a solid message on who can and cannot use Gnome 3.0 ahead of the release. sri ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 4:08 AM, Maciej Piechotka uzytkown...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 15:19 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: It will be important to get people writing extensions before the release happens i think. (sorry went into marketing mode...!) I take the liberty of saying that as person who tried to write an extension (some time ago): - Lack of basic documentation. Reverse engineering C/JavaScript to write an extension (for example - how to use St) is very hard. The Gnome shell guys only have limited resources. Owen and Jon are more than happy to help if someone wants to volunteer to do them. But their focus is on getting shell feature complete for the first release. Having done some of the work, it would be great to document what you've done thus far and then consult Jon and Owen on the limitations like reverse engineering. I know for a fact that a lot of components still haven't gotten the inspection work on it and they are looking for volunteers for that as well. Some are pretty easy others take some work. - Lack of basic tutorials. There no Hello World tutorial, video or anything (at least linked from page). [I distinguish between step-by-step tutorial and detailed documentation] Yes, we do need to have that before 3.0. This would in fact be a great article on Gnome Journal if someone wants to help writing that for fun and glory. - High overhead of code - if I remember correctly adding button requires adding to 2 files (CSS and JS) - where button should be put/how it behaves and how does it look like. Other technologies (gtk+ + gtkbuilder, html+css+js) allows to work on the scaffolding first and then work on details. Possibly 'sane' defaults and primitives would help. We probably want to move this to gnome-shell mailing list. - Lack of sandboxing. I'm not quite sure if and how it can be done but last time error crashed whole shell. Since JavaScript gives dellittle/delinsno/ins compile-time checks and errors do happen it would be helpful. Yeah, we probably want to move this over as well. It doesn't particularly address the current topic in regards to fallback to Gnome classic. sri ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 13:41 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 4:08 AM, Maciej Piechotka uzytkown...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 15:19 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: It will be important to get people writing extensions before the release happens i think. (sorry went into marketing mode...!) I take the liberty of saying that as person who tried to write an extension (some time ago): - Lack of basic documentation. Reverse engineering C/JavaScript to write an extension (for example - how to use St) is very hard. The Gnome shell guys only have limited resources. Owen and Jon are more than happy to help if someone wants to volunteer to do them. But their focus is on getting shell feature complete for the first release. Having done some of the work, it would be great to document what you've done thus far and then consult Jon and Owen on the limitations like reverse engineering. I know for a fact that a lot of components still haven't gotten the inspection work on it and they are looking for volunteers for that as well. Some are pretty easy others take some work. I'm sorry if I sound accusing of something. I wanted to point out what I found to be biggest limitation of writing extensions to gnome-shell. I gave up very quickly due to time limitations - I had done none work at all (except displaying label Hello World on LHS of screen). At this moment I have way more projects then time not mentioning the 'real life obligations'. Probably many of the documentation would be shared among 'core' shell and the extensions so it might help getting volunteers as well. - Lack of sandboxing. I'm not quite sure if and how it can be done but last time error crashed whole shell. Since JavaScript gives dellittle/delinsno/ins compile-time checks and errors do happen it would be helpful. Yeah, we probably want to move this over as well. It doesn't particularly address the current topic in regards to fallback to Gnome classic. sri Sorry for posting it but I wanted to point out the problems person unfamiliar with toolkit/platform finds on initial stages of extension development which seems to be crucial to 'get people writing extensions before the release'. Regards PS. While I have my concerns regarding gnome-shell I find it easier to use after some time then classical Gnome - so I'm sorry if I'm over-critical. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 2:22 PM, Maciej Piechotka uzytkown...@gmail.comwrote: I'm sorry if I sound accusing of something. I wanted to point out what I found to be biggest limitation of writing extensions to gnome-shell. I gave up very quickly due to time limitations - I had done none work at all (except displaying label Hello World on LHS of screen). At this moment I have way more projects then time not mentioning the 'real life obligations'. Don't let the work go to waste! :-) Please document. Completely understand the real life obligations. Sorry for posting it but I wanted to point out the problems person unfamiliar with toolkit/platform finds on initial stages of extension development which seems to be crucial to 'get people writing extensions before the release'. Nothing to apologize for. It's good to know, please do comment on gnome-shell though. PS. While I have my concerns regarding gnome-shell I find it easier to use after some time then classical Gnome - so I'm sorry if I'm over-critical. That's great to hear.. I find it that way as well. I don't think your comments were particularly critical, the fact that you went through the trouble of trying is great. sri ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
Don't think there is 3d on ppc. There is. I have it on Power G5. I think the fact that GNOME kills gnome-applets make GNOME2 compatibility mode a bad joke (if not hypocrisy). A good number of people would like to use that mode (I run voting some while ago at linux.org.ru - can provide url if someone interested) - and GNOME is going to provide them with just crooks, not a real solution. I am sure one of the most important reasons people choose GNOME2 compatibility mode is the applets (I guess noone thinks that gnome-panel itself is so attractive that people cannot live without it). To be honest, not them, us - because personally I am going to stay in that mode as long as possible, so I really would like to have it working. IIRC for a moment, gnome-shell does not provide extension architecture, similar to applets - so if a person wants something custom (not notification, not status) - where would he go? About gnome-shell compatibility. I tried to run gnome-shell inside vmware workstation. No way. There is no 3d there. Sergey ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On 28 December 2010 12:53, Sergey Udaltsov sergey.udalt...@gmail.com wrote: I think the fact that GNOME kills gnome-applets make GNOME2 compatibility mode a bad joke (if not hypocrisy). A good number of people would like to use that mode (I run voting some while ago at linux.org.ru - can provide url if someone interested) - and GNOME is going to provide them with just crooks, not a real solution. I am sure one of the most important reasons people choose GNOME2 compatibility mode is the applets (I guess noone thinks that gnome-panel itself is so attractive that people cannot live without it). To be honest, not them, us - because personally I am going to stay in that mode as long as possible, so I really would like to have it working. What you want is not Gnome 3 then. You want to continue using Gnome 2 and there's no one preventing you from doing that. Rui ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
What you want is not Gnome 3 then. You want to continue using Gnome 2 and there's no one preventing you from doing that. So, why bother maintaining gnome2 support mode at all? go to hell, just do not upgrade is unbeatable argument, I must admit. Actually, your advice effectively stops people from upgrading their distros, unless the distro choses to support both gnome2 and gnome3 - which I'm afraid will not be the case for most of them. To be fair, gnome2+3 maintenance may be not trivial, at least GNOME does not bother separating binaries by name. Sergey ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
Excerpts from Rui Tiago Cação Matos's message of mar dic 28 14:02:55 +0100 2010: On 28 December 2010 12:53, Sergey Udaltsov sergey.udalt...@gmail.com wrote: I think the fact that GNOME kills gnome-applets make GNOME2 compatibility mode a bad joke (if not hypocrisy). A good number of people would like to use that mode (I run voting some while ago at linux.org.ru - can provide url if someone interested) - and GNOME is going to provide them with just crooks, not a real solution. I am sure one of the most important reasons people choose GNOME2 compatibility mode is the applets (I guess noone thinks that gnome-panel itself is so attractive that people cannot live without it). To be honest, not them, us - because personally I am going to stay in that mode as long as possible, so I really would like to have it working. What you want is not Gnome 3 then. You want to continue using Gnome 2 and there's no one preventing you from doing that. I don't think gnome 3 is just gnome-shell. There a lot of more changes in other modules, specially in the platform, that make the upgrade worth it. Rui -- Carlos Garcia Campos PGP key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x523E6462 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
Hi! Am Dienstag, den 28.12.2010, 13:09 + schrieb Sergey Udaltsov: Actually, your advice effectively stops people from upgrading their distros, unless the distro choses to support both gnome2 and gnome3 - which I'm afraid will not be the case for most of them. To be fair, gnome2+3 maintenance may be not trivial, at least GNOME does not bother separating binaries by name. As pointed out before the fallback-mode is not a continuation of GNOME 2. It was just the easiest way to create a fallback because we don't have the resources to create a non-3D shell that could act as a fallback. As we have gnome-panel already it was choosen as the fallback mode. BTW, nobody forbids you to create a gnome-sergeys-applets module that is compatible with the GNOME3 gnome-panel and ships all the applets you want. But it will just not be part of the default moduleset. Regards, Johannes ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
As pointed out before the fallback-mode is not a continuation of GNOME 2. It was just the easiest way to create a fallback because we don't have the resources to create a non-3D shell that could act as a fallback. As we have gnome-panel already it was choosen as the fallback mode. Is it an indication of a problem in gnome3 architecture? Is it simpler to maintain extra modules than to scale mutter and gnome-shell down? Especially considering that fallback mode would be somewhat weak, functionally BTW, nobody forbids you to create a gnome-sergeys-applets module that is compatible with the GNOME3 gnome-panel and ships all the applets you want. But it will just not be part of the default moduleset. Sure, but that policy is not friendly to existing users. Sergey, who sometimes prefers to look backwards rather than forward ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
Le mardi 28 décembre 2010 à 13:02 +, Rui Tiago Cação Matos a écrit : What you want is not Gnome 3 then. You want to continue using Gnome 2 and there's no one preventing you from doing that. Is the GNOME 3 panel compatible with the GNOME 2 applets? If so, that’s fine. We distributors can keep on shipping gnome-applets as we do today, with the 2.32 version. If not, you’ve effectively just killed the panel. There’s no way we can maintain two versions of the panel, requiring two versions of g-c-c, themselves requiring two versions of g-s-d. -- .''`. : :' : “You would need to ask a lawyer if you don't know `. `' that a handshake of course makes a valid contract.” `--- J???rg Schilling ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
It seems, there are, in theory, 5 options for fallback/compatibility: 1. Make g-s and mutter scalable down to envs without 3d 2. Provide full compat/fallback mode, with panel and applets 3. Provide restricted fallback mode, only gnome-panel, just enough to do smth 4. Same as #3, just very basic and simple panel, as William mentioned 5. No fallback at all. Anything I missed? Was that choice discussed anywhere? Sergey ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
Excerpts from Josselin Mouette's message of mar dic 28 15:03:45 +0100 2010: Le mardi 28 décembre 2010 à 13:02 +, Rui Tiago Cação Matos a écrit : What you want is not Gnome 3 then. You want to continue using Gnome 2 and there's no one preventing you from doing that. Is the GNOME 3 panel compatible with the GNOME 2 applets? There's no gnome 3 panel, gnome-panel hasn't been ported to gtk3 yet, there's a branch but it's outdated and it still doesn't work. If so, that’s fine. We distributors can keep on shipping gnome-applets as we do today, with the 2.32 version. If not, you’ve effectively just killed the panel. There’s no way we can maintain two versions of the panel, requiring two versions of g-c-c, themselves requiring two versions of g-s-d. -- Carlos Garcia Campos PGP key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x523E6462 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
Excerpts from Olav Vitters's message of mar dic 28 15:20:05 +0100 2010: On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 03:03:45PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mardi 28 décembre 2010 à 13:02 +, Rui Tiago Cação Matos a écrit : What you want is not Gnome 3 then. You want to continue using Gnome 2 and there's no one preventing you from doing that. Is the GNOME 3 panel compatible with the GNOME 2 applets? Only with dbus applets, AFAIK (and hope). gnome-panel currently supports both dbus and bonobo applets. IIRC some work is needed on gnome-applets to port them properly to latest gtk+ (and so on). If someone bothers (I'm guessing between GNOME 3.0 and 3.2), I don't see any reason not to release a new tarball with those changes. Whether or not that is supported doesn't really matter. However, the fallback is meant as a fallback, not as providing gnome-panel and its applets. So I don't see anything wrong with not providing the applets. While at the same time, I don't see anything wrong with releasing a new gnome-applets tarball. Meaning: GNOME 3 is not gnome-panel and never will be. But if someone still hacks on gnome-applets nobody will work against them. I do hope at one point we won't need the gnome-panel fallback (quick enough software rendering or some other experience). That said, think it would be good to provide a gnome-applets which works with gtk+ 3.0. -- Carlos Garcia Campos PGP key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x523E6462 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 04:54:43PM +0100, Carlos Garcia Campos wrote: Excerpts from Olav Vitters's message of mar dic 28 15:20:05 +0100 2010: On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 03:03:45PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mardi 28 décembre 2010 à 13:02 +, Rui Tiago Cação Matos a écrit : What you want is not Gnome 3 then. You want to continue using Gnome 2 and there's no one preventing you from doing that. Is the GNOME 3 panel compatible with the GNOME 2 applets? Only with dbus applets, AFAIK (and hope). gnome-panel currently supports both dbus and bonobo applets. Are you talking about the 3.0 version? I'd expect bonobo to be dropped for a 3.0 panel. Anyway, we need vuntz for the real answer. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 13:42 +, Sergey Udaltsov wrote: As pointed out before the fallback-mode is not a continuation of GNOME 2. It was just the easiest way to create a fallback because we don't have the resources to create a non-3D shell that could act as a fallback. As we have gnome-panel already it was choosen as the fallback mode. Is it an indication of a problem in gnome3 architecture? I don't see any problem here. Is it simpler to maintain extra modules than to scale mutter and gnome-shell down? define scale down. if your definition of scale down implies do not use hardware acceleration then the answer is obviously no. that's the whole point. the whole graphics stack (cairo, x11, gtk) is trying to be as hardware accelerated - it's not a new thing. the scaled down version of mutter is metacity with the default, xrender-based, compositor; but mutter is just providing the window management infrastructure for gnome-shell - and you simply cannot implement the gnome-shell designs using a non-hardware accelerated environment. Sergey, who sometimes prefers to look backwards rather than forward no problem with that. you can maintain the old user experience for yourself and never upgrade. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
Excerpts from Olav Vitters's message of mar dic 28 17:25:31 +0100 2010: On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 04:54:43PM +0100, Carlos Garcia Campos wrote: Excerpts from Olav Vitters's message of mar dic 28 15:20:05 +0100 2010: On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 03:03:45PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mardi 28 décembre 2010 à 13:02 +, Rui Tiago Cação Matos a écrit : What you want is not Gnome 3 then. You want to continue using Gnome 2 and there's no one preventing you from doing that. Is the GNOME 3 panel compatible with the GNOME 2 applets? Only with dbus applets, AFAIK (and hope). gnome-panel currently supports both dbus and bonobo applets. Are you talking about the 3.0 version? I'd expect bonobo to be dropped for a 3.0 panel. I'm talking about gnome panel from git master, vuntz added support for bonobo applets to make the transition easier. Anyway, we need vuntz for the real answer. I'm not sure, but I think the idea was dropping bonobo support when most of applets are ported to dbus. -- Carlos Garcia Campos PGP key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x523E6462 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 05:53:35PM +0100, Carlos Garcia Campos wrote: Excerpts from Olav Vitters's message of mar dic 28 17:25:31 +0100 2010: Are you talking about the 3.0 version? I'd expect bonobo to be dropped for a 3.0 panel. I'm talking about gnome panel from git master, vuntz added support for bonobo applets to make the transition easier. Anyway, we need vuntz for the real answer. I'm not sure, but I think the idea was dropping bonobo support when most of applets are ported to dbus. Also for 2.x? For 3.0 I don't expect anything other than no bonobo, as bonobo is deprecated and we're dropping all deprecated stuff. My only wonder is regarding gnome-panel + applets being the fallback option.. so maybe somehow different rules apply. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 10:18:19PM +0100, Olav Vitters wrote: Also for 2.x? For 3.0 I don't expect anything other than no bonobo, as bonobo is deprecated and we're dropping all deprecated stuff. My only wonder is regarding gnome-panel + applets being the fallback option.. so 'applets' officially only gnome-panel maybe somehow different rules apply. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
Il giorno mar, 28/12/2010 alle 16.50 +, Emmanuele Bassi ha scritto: On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 13:42 +, Sergey Udaltsov wrote: Sergey, who sometimes prefers to look backwards rather than forward no problem with that. you can maintain the old user experience for yourself and never upgrade. and snarkyness is never going to get you anything, mmkay? (cit.) :P ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Luca Ferretti lferr...@gnome.org wrote: Sergey, who sometimes prefers to look backwards rather than forward no problem with that. you can maintain the old user experience for yourself and never upgrade. and snarkyness is never going to get you anything, mmkay? (cit.) I believe it was a pretty reasonable answer considering the persistent angry tone of all the previous emails. You reap what you sow, and all that. Xan :P ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 23:07 +0100, Luca Ferretti wrote: Il giorno mar, 28/12/2010 alle 16.50 +, Emmanuele Bassi ha scritto: On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 13:42 +, Sergey Udaltsov wrote: Sergey, who sometimes prefers to look backwards rather than forward no problem with that. you can maintain the old user experience for yourself and never upgrade. and snarkyness is never going to get you anything, mmkay? (cit.) :P it wasn't at all meant to be snarky[0], nor was I sarcastic in any way, shape or form. it is, in fact, an exact assessment of what anyone who wishes to keep the old user experience should do: there's no need to ever upgrade if the 2.x UX is doing the job. +++ by the way, this whole thread is pretty angry and confrontational - or, at least, it feels a lot that way. the 3.x UX is not complete, and will probably take some development cycles to iterate over the various ideas that are being experimented; I think it's been implied many times, since we all know that the 2.x UX took years to reach the point where we had to chuck a lot of it away to make room for something that was designed from the ground up, instead of the result of convergent bumping around of ideas. I don't think anyone in the Shell team or in the gnome-design team has stopped taking into consideration new ideas - though, obviously, they have to balance that with the resources being what they are. this whole thread, like the *many* others that preceded it, has been fairly aggressive in the pushback of the new design - it doesn't implement that pet feature, it requires hardware capabilities that not every one is willing to commit to, etc. - and while on one side my initial reaction was to say: well, tough - here's a nickel kid, go buy yourself a better computer; and if you want to keep using gnome2 feel free to maintain the pieces you require; and if you don't want to, then there's the door: don't let the it kick you in the ass too hard on your way out; but that was just my initial reaction, and I'm *really* trying (and willing) to tune that down. might be that the old age is finally catching up on me. I understand the pushback to changes. I understand that something that was designed from the ground up is still missing some feature. I understand that that design calls for some drastic changes in how the user experience should be shaped, which means that some features will not be implemented. these are choices made by people that generally know what they are doing, and that have been trusted for years by the whole community of people that show up in GNOME. I'm pretty sure they haven't been replaced by pod people. I guess the same measure of trust should be still applied, even if we don't immediately see the endgame. if that measure of trust cannot, or will not, be applied then we can give up creating a coherent Operating System, and we can go back maintaining separate pieces of an OS, with small time collaboration between projects, and design deferred to drive-by ad horizontal patching done by heroes trying to drain the swamp. ciao, Emmanuele. [0] unlike the time when I replied to you with the phrase you quoted. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
2010/12/28 Sergey Udaltsov sergey.udalt...@gmail.com What you want is not Gnome 3 then. You want to continue using Gnome 2 and there's no one preventing you from doing that. So, why bother maintaining gnome2 support mode at all? go to hell, just do not upgrade is unbeatable argument, I must admit. I think though it might be initially painful not having applets. But if you look at what applets are available they seem fairly repetitious. The exception for me personally is the system monitor applet which I think is very useful as apps do spin out of control or take a lot of memory. That can be addressed once libgtop is converted to gobject-introspection so we can get JavaScript bindings. But over next couple of releases after 3.0, we should be able to get people to start writing useful extensions to bridge gaps from the old applets to shell extensions. I think the lack of applets will be a little tricky to manage from a release perspective since there are clearly many people like yourself that are alarmed that such a functionality is being removed and it will be important to underline the context on why it is removed before things start taking a negative spin in media. It will be important to get people writing extensions before the release happens i think. (sorry went into marketing mode...!) Actually, your advice effectively stops people from upgrading their distros, unless the distro choses to support both gnome2 and gnome3 - which I'm afraid will not be the case for most of them. To be fair, gnome2+3 maintenance may be not trivial, at least GNOME does not bother separating binaries by name. I think in this case, if you don't meet the requirements that it might be better not to upgrade till Gnome 3 hits feature parity. I don't know what the world looks like these days in terms of computer capabilities. I don't want to see us alienate large swathes of our 3% desktop market share. :-) There should be some idea though on how to convert such users to gnome 3 at some point, and that might be something something as simply improving things so that they do work comfortably. I remember it took quite a while for nautilus to be where it is today. My two cents. sri ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 15:19 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: I don't want to see us alienate large swathes of our 3% desktop market share. :-) I think this is a myth that should be debunked. at least, I strongly believe that it *will* be debunked as soon as distributions start shipping GNOME 3.x. I don't believe for an *instant* that changing the UX will lead to alienating but the minimal part of our user base. the reason why I don't hold to that is that we will be losing users either way if we just stay with 2.x; users won't stay with us just because we never change the user experience from metacity + gnome-panel + a bunch of applets. users will go away sooner, as they always do when a project is perceived to be stagnating. so we can chose to change the user experience to something that might attract new users, and maybe lose a bit of some hard core and vocal minority in the process, or just stay the course, and never get new users, and eventually lose what we have. this risk-averse attitude is a clear indicator that we lost our edge - in development, design and other things. another thing that was pointed out by Xan on IRC earlier this evening and that captures my thoughts precisely: xan my impression is that people asked for years for the abstract idea of change and progress against the perceived decadence of gnome 2.x but when faced with the real-world consequences of doing large changes they completely reject it xan they just want to magically get from here to there without living the process we can't get from 2.32 to 3.0 without ever losing features, or even users; the whole point of re-designing the UX means losing something in order to gain something else - features contradicting the new design will just have to go away. if this means losing some users, well, so be it: the potential of attracting new users far outweighs it. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com wrote: by the way, this whole thread is pretty angry and confrontational - or, at least, it feels a lot that way. It has. I think though as a project we're not quite managing this as well as we could. Not enough context for the changes we are making and we've always been kind of poor in communicating these things. When there is a lack of real information in the overall structure of what Gnome 3.0 means. So we have these discussions about applets going away in a vacuum without really explaining the underlying reasons why we are doing so. When we don't get the reasons then we get into these rat holes. I have the perception that information on what all is going on is getting lost in the noise. What is the canonical point where information on this stuff need to flow to? Seems to me you need to pick someone or maybe two to handle all the details, parse, and then communicate. the 3.x UX is not complete, and will probably take some development cycles to iterate over the various ideas that are being experimented; I Yep, that's what I alluded to in a previous message. Like some parts of Gnome 2.0 it took a while for things to stabilize. I expect the same. There is really nothing wrong saying stay on Gnome 2.0 till we reach a point of stability. this whole thread, like the *many* others that preceded it, has been fairly aggressive in the pushback of the new design - it doesn't implement that pet feature, it requires hardware capabilities that not every one is willing to commit to, etc. - and while on one side my initial reaction was to say: well, tough - here's a nickel kid, go buy yourself a better computer; and if you want to keep using gnome2 feel free to maintain the pieces you require; and if you don't want to, then there's the door: don't let the it kick you in the ass too hard on your way out; but that was just my initial reaction, and I'm *really* trying (and willing) to tune that down. might be that the old age is finally catching up on me. You old hacker you. :-) What you really need is a group of people between developers and community to explain this stuff, filter out the noise etc etc. I understand the pushback to changes. I understand that something that was designed from the ground up is still missing some feature. I understand that that design calls for some drastic changes in how the user experience should be shaped, which means that some features will not be implemented. these are choices made by people that generally know what they are doing, and that have been trusted for years by the whole community of people that show up in GNOME. I'm pretty sure they haven't been replaced by pod people. I guess the same measure of trust should be still applied, even if we don't immediately see the endgame. I think people just want to know what the final thing is going to look like. People are always scared that some pet features of there is going to disappear. We have this reputation of removing stuff and people get attached to the features tehy have. I am no exception to this. But what I've realized is that if you want those features, then you open up a bugzilla, and volunteer to help. So if you want system monitor again, you need to help get javascript bindings to gtop of bug people to do that and then ask what can I do? Resources are not infinite and people need to understand that if they want a particular feature at the initial release they need to jump in and help and not complain. If are not doing that, then what is missing that we be enabled to do this. sri ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
Hi! Am Dienstag, den 28.12.2010, 15:44 -0800 schrieb Sriram Ramkrishna: I have the perception that information on what all is going on is getting lost in the noise. What is the canonical point where information on this stuff need to flow to? Seems to me you need to pick someone or maybe two to handle all the details, parse, and then communicate. I think there are few people that expect that everything will be explained to them which is not the case and won't ever be. For now, GNOME 3 is nothing the end-user should care about. Sometimes the question Why? will remain because design and even careful design is subject to personal preference. This question cannot always be answered though most of it should be covered somewhere. When we reach UI/feature freeze I am pretty sure a bunch of people will sit down and write detailed release notes that cover all the points that people need to know when updating. This information will be there when the release happens but cannot be there yet because there are a lot of things we currently cannot be sure about. The state of the 3D drivers might be one of them. Regards, Johannes ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: gnome-panel gnome-applets?
I generally agree with what you said, so I won't reply to every thing. On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 15:44 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com wrote: by the way, this whole thread is pretty angry and confrontational - or, at least, it feels a lot that way. It has. I think though as a project we're not quite managing this as well as we could. Not enough context for the changes we are making and we've always been kind of poor in communicating these things. When there is a lack of real information in the overall structure of what Gnome 3.0 means. So we have these discussions about applets going away in a vacuum without really explaining the underlying reasons why we are doing so. When we don't get the reasons then we get into these rat holes. I don't want the release-team to justify every single decision they make; the release-team mailing list archives are public, and so are the release team IRC meetings, AFAIK. democracy^WGNOME is made by those who show up. I consider the release-team as the maintainers of GNOME as a project; I don't go questioning the decisions of a maintainer, unless I'm willing to put my ass on the line and come up with a better alternative. if we need a community manager -- somebody that proxies (both ways) the release team/module maintainers and the community -- then we should ask the Foundation to look into this matter. I think people just want to know what the final thing is going to look like. I understand that feeling, but there is no final thing: GNOME 2.x arrived at the dot-32 minor release, and it's still not done - the reason we're chucking away a bunch of stuff is precisely because it cannot be done in any other way (yes, it's true: it cannot be done in any other way; otherwise we'd be releasing GNOME 5.2 by now). the final thing is going to look slightly different in every cycle, because that's how GNOME 2.x started as well. I also don't want GNOME to be in the state where we can say that it's done, because that implies the death of the project. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
