答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ted Liu]

Hi Luke, Apache Kylin is a hero project to me and many Chinese developers. In 
my humble opinion "Elite" is not just about efforts and achievements, but also 
capabilities, including project management and communication skills, esp. using 
English. Anyhow, choosing proper English wording to avoid misunderstanding 
remains a big challenge to me. But I learned one this time. :-)


Ted

发件人: Luke Han
发送时间: ‎2015/‎11/‎21 22:39
收件人: dev@community.apache.org
抄送: nic...@hedhman.org
主题: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

Hi Ted L,
I don't think "elites" is good idea here:) we just work very hard to
learn the Apache Way, to engage world wide community and develop our
project for people really need. Many efforts have been spent in spare time
from our committers with their passion and willing to contribution, and the
same thing could be found from other community especially in Spark one,
there are many people from here who are better than us:)


Best Regards!
-

Luke Han

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> My apologies if misunderstood from Ted Dunning's earlier comment: " I was
> a mentor on kylin and worried about English being a problem for
> contribution. The real problem is that apache is partially defined by the
> use of English to allow as wide a participation as possible."
>
> I trust Luke and his team are very capable of English communication
> effectively. It is just that it is still minority of such elites in China
> dev community so far and that's the reason why Chinese document for Kylin
> is still needed.
>
> Ted
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Luke Han [mailto:luke...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 10:08 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Cc: nic...@hedhman.org
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> Community
>
> >>I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin
> >>incubation
> project and trust that you were also >>aware of the frustrations from both
> side due to language issues
>
> I don't this is true...Language is a little bit challenge as Ted Dunning
> and I have discussed in London and San Jose many times, yes, the Chinese
> developers are not native English speakers but what we have demonstrated in
> Kylin community is both sides are happy to collaboration together, language
> is not a problem.
>
> People intend to discuss with their native language which will bring
> problem to form "official localized community" eventfully, they will try to
> stay within local community. We should engage and bring local developers,
> projects to ASF, not only Chinese and all of the world.
>
> There's WeChat group for Kylin but every time people raised question there
> we will re-direct them to mailing list, to keep only one place to have such
> discussion, even we have to help to translate to English. And the result is
> good (IMO), we engaged many committers from local who are participating in
> the community very well, in English.
>
> Localization is one good idea, which also should be counted as
> contribution with relative project, we could saw there are some Chinese
> docs of HBase, most of Kylin's docs now have both English and Chinese...
>
>
> Best Regards!
> -
>
> Luke Han
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:
>
> > Hi Ted, Yes, we want to establish a bridge or a group (if the idea of
> > "China Community" seemed to be intimidating or crazy) to help more
> > devs become contributors and committers to popular projects from the
> > West and to help incubate more Chinese projects to become popular both
> > internationally and domestically. It aims to be a bridge to overcome
> > language barriers and culture differences so that more talents and
> > projects can exchange. We certainly hope this bridge or group can use
> > the Apache name, at least in Chinese 阿帕奇, but not really a MUST if ASF
> > doesn’t support the idea or treat it as a beast. In this case, we'd
> > probably do it with another name not violating ASF trademark.
> >
> > Our idea is to set up a few working groups moderated, mentored by
> > experienced Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers,
> > contributors, etc. to achieve the above goals. The working groups may
> > be ranging from big data, cloud computing, dev language/framework,
> > community development (including events, meetups, localization, travel
> assistance...), etc.
> >
> > I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin
> > incubation project and trust that you were also aware of the
> > frustrations from both side due to language issues (and maybe
> not-so-obvious culture difference).
> > Another example is Ali JStorm as an incubation project to the Apache
> > Storm project. Both side probably felt frustrated along 

答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ted Liu]

I can help with these tasks since we, at KAIYUANSHE, have done the similar to 
bring the great OSS governance and licensing content and application from 
OSS-Watch in U.K. to our website by our professional translators with Ross' 
guidance. One question, can we crowd-source the tasks to the OSS community in 
China? Our KAIYUANSHE members , including myself, can do translation and/or 
proofreading. As said earlier, this would greatly inspire the communities and 
devs here.


Ted

发件人: Hervé BOUTEMY
发送时间: ‎2015/‎11/‎22 0:11
收件人: dev@community.apache.org
主题: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

then IMHO some chinese speaking people should start writing a little
introduction on 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apache.org=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7ca10fa05981994c5cfea308d2f28e6a29%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=54Q9uFYNL%2b9O4ZG4zxpnXU2tFs6ITD%2fXEQ4SICmtgME%3d,
 like newcomers [1], newbiefaq [2]

IIRC, any ASF committer can edit the site

once a few pages are available, then they could be referenced from classical
english site and we can work on creating a chinese-language mailing list

That's how I see the process, but I won't be able to do anything about it,
since I don't speak chinese :)
(and I don't think there is such a strong need for a french equivalent)

Regards,

Hervé

[1] 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.apache.org%2fnewcomers%2f=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7ca10fa05981994c5cfea308d2f28e6a29%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=v08GdRcS%2f0tibOnuCAQiba8gjqhHj%2fDsd3A9e7uHATE%3d

[2] 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.apache.org%2fnewbiefaq.html=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7ca10fa05981994c5cfea308d2f28e6a29%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=kAkFbBrcS9HEDgsEraq1q14FGYjgOlcsqJcg39rwTdc%3d

Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 13:53:03 Ted Liu a écrit :
> Thank Niclas and Hervé, It is excited to see the great ideas to start with.
> If needed, we can help crowdsource for contributions in China and it is
> very likely to excite and attract many talented young people to contribute.
>

> Other than the great content, email list, webpage, etc., we can also help
> from user experience side, such as pages in Chinese for mobile or a Wechat
> public account for news, blogs publishing or other services, and social
> interactions thru Wechat or QQ, such as allowing any Chinese Apache fans to
> retweet and socialize great articles.

> p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because it is used
> by 500M Wechat chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn information. This
> is a very effective China-specific scenario.

>
> -Original Message-
> From: Hervé BOUTEMY [mailto:herve.bout...@free.fr]
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:56 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> Community

> thinking more about it
>
> Imagine:
> - a few localized pages in
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apache.org
> a=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7
> %7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=%2fZti2MXsNqqO0quW2NRyF45mpfx7
> pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d about tooling, culture and so on + mailing list to
> interact
 - as a first step, previous localized team could provide a little
> localized page to  each classical TLP (managed primarily in english) to
> explain the purpose of the TLP and how they can contact localized
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apache.org
> a=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7
> %7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=%2fZti2MXsNqqO0quW2NRyF45mpfx7
> pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d to get help to interact with the TLP
> IMHO, it's not about translating everything in every TLP: it's about putting
> in every TLP  (starting with
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.apache.org=01%7
> c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f
> 988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=1owk036Iz0L7CvCjYK79VJYn0zU%2fKsXoeT
> kFfi3ED5k%3d and
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=incubator.apache.org
> a=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7
> %7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=ZvN%2ftVv2eINlLZHjEmc7jGf7xoXS
> RA6MXUtczeSshXk%3d) a localized pointer to localized helpers in
> community.apache.org.

> Of course, if the localized team grows big, they can engage more
> translations on some TLPs.

> Then +1 to creating ch...@community.apache.org +
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.a
> pache.org%2fchina.html=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c373953
> 

Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 2:16 AM, Lei Chang  wrote:
> There are about 5 million college graduates each year in China, and i think 
> there is
> a great potential to increase the number of contributors from Apache
> community in China.

Speaking of which: do you know what's the status of Google Summer
of Code in China? If this is something we can leverage, perhaps
a good approach would be to invest in bilingual mentors to
tap into that student potential.

> Developing an Apache community in China needs some pioneers to get
> together, discuss, directs and organize the meetups, conferences. It would
> be very helpful to have a formal Apache community project set up to work on
> this.

If you're asking for a place -- ComDev is a perfect place for that. Please use
ComDev mailing lists, wiki, website, etc.

If you're asking for local events -- you'd have to be the one telling us what
makes sense and how can we help (send speakers, send stickers, etc., etc.).

Thanks,
Roman.

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ross Gardler]

True that any channel can be used for dissemination BUT it cannot use the 
apache brand unless managed by Apache itself. In the of announcements etc that 
management will happen through our Marketing team. Though I would suggest this 
list for development of the ideas etc.

Ted, you already know Sally as you worked with her for the roadshow. Before 
creating an Apache branded WeChat channel we need to ensure Sally is prepared.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Ted Dunning
Sent: ‎11/‎21/‎2015 6:06 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 9:53 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because it is
> used by 500M Wechat chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn information.
> This is a very effective China-specific scenario.
>

Note that you can use ANY channel or medium to inform people about how
Apache works or tell them what projects do or share experiences.

It is the development that has to be on the official lists.

Re: 答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Luke Han]

One more important thing I would like to emphasize here is there are many
people are consulting me, our members, other ASF members in China about how
to not only contribute code but also bring some projects to ASF. That's I
would like to say more localization content, events, meetups will help a
lot to engage the local community to contribute more to ASF.



Best Regards!
-

Luke Han

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:10 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> Understood.
>
>
> Ted
> 
> 发件人: Ted Dunning
> 发送时间: ‎2015/‎11/‎21 22:06
> 收件人: dev@community.apache.org
> 主题: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> Community
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 9:53 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:
>
> > p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because it is
> > used by 500M Wechat chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn information.
> > This is a very effective China-specific scenario.
> >
>
> Note that you can use ANY channel or medium to inform people about how
> Apache works or tell them what projects do or share experiences.
>
> It is the development that has to be on the official lists.
>

答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ted Liu]

Understood.


Ted

发件人: Ted Dunning
发送时间: ‎2015/‎11/‎21 22:06
收件人: dev@community.apache.org
主题: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 9:53 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because it is
> used by 500M Wechat chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn information.
> This is a very effective China-specific scenario.
>

Note that you can use ANY channel or medium to inform people about how
Apache works or tell them what projects do or share experiences.

It is the development that has to be on the official lists.

Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Luke Han]

Hi Ted L,
I don't think "elites" is good idea here:) we just work very hard to
learn the Apache Way, to engage world wide community and develop our
project for people really need. Many efforts have been spent in spare time
from our committers with their passion and willing to contribution, and the
same thing could be found from other community especially in Spark one,
there are many people from here who are better than us:)


Best Regards!
-

Luke Han

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> My apologies if misunderstood from Ted Dunning's earlier comment: " I was
> a mentor on kylin and worried about English being a problem for
> contribution. The real problem is that apache is partially defined by the
> use of English to allow as wide a participation as possible."
>
> I trust Luke and his team are very capable of English communication
> effectively. It is just that it is still minority of such elites in China
> dev community so far and that's the reason why Chinese document for Kylin
> is still needed.
>
> Ted
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Luke Han [mailto:luke...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 10:08 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Cc: nic...@hedhman.org
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> Community
>
> >>I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin
> >>incubation
> project and trust that you were also >>aware of the frustrations from both
> side due to language issues
>
> I don't this is true...Language is a little bit challenge as Ted Dunning
> and I have discussed in London and San Jose many times, yes, the Chinese
> developers are not native English speakers but what we have demonstrated in
> Kylin community is both sides are happy to collaboration together, language
> is not a problem.
>
> People intend to discuss with their native language which will bring
> problem to form "official localized community" eventfully, they will try to
> stay within local community. We should engage and bring local developers,
> projects to ASF, not only Chinese and all of the world.
>
> There's WeChat group for Kylin but every time people raised question there
> we will re-direct them to mailing list, to keep only one place to have such
> discussion, even we have to help to translate to English. And the result is
> good (IMO), we engaged many committers from local who are participating in
> the community very well, in English.
>
> Localization is one good idea, which also should be counted as
> contribution with relative project, we could saw there are some Chinese
> docs of HBase, most of Kylin's docs now have both English and Chinese...
>
>
> Best Regards!
> -
>
> Luke Han
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:
>
> > Hi Ted, Yes, we want to establish a bridge or a group (if the idea of
> > "China Community" seemed to be intimidating or crazy) to help more
> > devs become contributors and committers to popular projects from the
> > West and to help incubate more Chinese projects to become popular both
> > internationally and domestically. It aims to be a bridge to overcome
> > language barriers and culture differences so that more talents and
> > projects can exchange. We certainly hope this bridge or group can use
> > the Apache name, at least in Chinese 阿帕奇, but not really a MUST if ASF
> > doesn’t support the idea or treat it as a beast. In this case, we'd
> > probably do it with another name not violating ASF trademark.
> >
> > Our idea is to set up a few working groups moderated, mentored by
> > experienced Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers,
> > contributors, etc. to achieve the above goals. The working groups may
> > be ranging from big data, cloud computing, dev language/framework,
> > community development (including events, meetups, localization, travel
> assistance...), etc.
> >
> > I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin
> > incubation project and trust that you were also aware of the
> > frustrations from both side due to language issues (and maybe
> not-so-obvious culture difference).
> > Another example is Ali JStorm as an incubation project to the Apache
> > Storm project. Both side probably felt frustrated along the way. Even
> > though there are more English-capable IT people in China nowadays, the
> > pains and misunderstandings of using non-native languages still exist.
> >
> > Due to the much bigger user and dev base in China, I'd put much
> > heavier weigh on hot projects from the West, e.g. Spark, Hadoop, etc.
> > over the Chinese-originated projects like Kylin. So the localization
> > priority is obvious.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Ted Dunning [mailto:ted.dunn...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:33 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Cc: nic...@hedhman.org
> > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - 

RE: 答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ted Liu]

Exactly, it's more than just content translation. Ted

-Original Message-
From: Luke Han [mailto:luke...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 10:18 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: 答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

One more important thing I would like to emphasize here is there are many 
people are consulting me, our members, other ASF members in China about how to 
not only contribute code but also bring some projects to ASF. That's I would 
like to say more localization content, events, meetups will help a lot to 
engage the local community to contribute more to ASF.



Best Regards!
-

Luke Han

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:10 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> Understood.
>
>
> Ted
> 
> 发件人: Ted Dunning
> 发送时间: ‎2015/‎11/‎21 22:06
> 收件人: dev@community.apache.org
> 主题: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
> Community
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 9:53 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:
>
> > p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because it 
> > is used by 500M Wechat chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn information.
> > This is a very effective China-specific scenario.
> >
>
> Note that you can use ANY channel or medium to inform people about how 
> Apache works or tell them what projects do or share experiences.
>
> It is the development that has to be on the official lists.
>

Re: Apache on ThoughtWorks Tech Radar

[Luke Han]

Actually, the first time Kylin has been on this radar is in May:
https://assets.thoughtworks.com/assets/technology-radar-may-2015-en.pdf

But I'm not sure is there any changes after that and bring back again.

Anyway, it's great news for both of us:)


Best Regards!
-

Luke Han

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 11:09 PM, John D. Ament 
wrote:

> Kylin is brand new.  Mesos and Spark have been up there before, but I
> believe this is the first month they appear directly on the platform page.
> https://www.thoughtworks.com/radar/platforms
>
> John
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:06 AM Luke Han  wrote:
>
> > Great news...but I think it's not new added this month, right?
> >
> >
> > Best Regards!
> > -
> >
> > Luke Han
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:58 PM, John D. Ament 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > All,
> > >
> > > In this month's posting of their tech radar, three new Apache
> > technologies
> > > focused on Big Data were added - Kylin, Mesos and Spark.  This is a
> great
> > > accomplishment to all, and I'm wondering if there's someway of getting
> > the
> > > word out about it?
> > >
> > > You can take a look at https://www.thoughtworks.com/radar/a-z#apache
> to
> > > see
> > > the full list of ASF projects, but note that it matches anything with
> the
> > > word apache in it.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> >
>

Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ted Dunning]

Ted,

My further comments are in-line.  Your explanation is helping understand
what your goals are.


On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> Hi Ted, Yes, we want to establish a bridge or a group (if the idea of
> "China Community" seemed to be intimidating or crazy) to help more devs
> become contributors and committers to popular projects from the West and to
> help incubate more Chinese projects to become popular both internationally
> and domestically.


This sounds great.


> It aims to be a bridge to overcome language barriers and culture
> differences so that more talents and projects can exchange. We certainly
> hope this bridge or group can use the Apache name, at least in Chinese 阿帕奇,
> but not really a MUST if ASF doesn’t support the idea or treat it as a
> beast. In this case, we'd probably do it with another name not violating
> ASF trademark.
>

Well, I think that Apache *does* support this in several ways.


> Our idea is to set up a few working groups moderated, mentored by
> experienced Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, contributors,
> etc. to achieve the above goals. The working groups may be ranging from big
> data, cloud computing, dev language/framework, community development
> (including events, meetups, localization, travel assistance...), etc.
>

One strong suggestion that I would have is that we start with smaller
pieces, not with everything all at once. Furthermore, the rate should be
determined by the number of people willing to help make it happen.

There are a variety of things that can be done.

- Herve suggests localized versions of descriptions of how Apache works.
There might be an additional descriptive list for questions about how
Apache works that is conducted in particular languages. This is very
similar to how the Open Office tries to support multiple languages. Policy
decisions would, of course, have to remain on the English mailing.

- A similar thing can happen with localized documentation and user mailing
lists for popular projects like Spark.  For instance, there might be
user...@spark.apache.org. This would only work, of course, if there are
enough people to answer questions.

I think that these two sorts of efforts would cover most of what you
mention.



>
> I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin incubation
> project and trust that you were also aware of the frustrations from both
> side due to language issues (and maybe not-so-obvious culture difference).


Yes. I have previously run a development group in China as well.  I was
very impressed in the Kylin project by how little the problems of language
seemed to be. Of course, I might not see the problems and there is always
the problem of silent failures from people who didn't show up and describe
their problems because of the English-only nature.

Whether I was a good mentor, I should not say.  Ask Luke or another of hte
project members.



> Another example is Ali JStorm as an incubation project to the Apache Storm
> project.


I was a mentor for Storm as well and have seen this very important
development first hand.


> Both side probably felt frustrated along the way. Even though there are
> more English-capable IT people in China nowadays, the pains and
> misunderstandings of using non-native languages still exist.
>

Absolutely.  And I feel the same problems, but even more every time I look
at a web site in Chinese.  Or Japanese.  Or Indonesian.  Or Hindi.  Or
Tamil. Even in languages like German, Swedish or Spanish that I can read, I
am much slower than in English and it is very frustrating.


> Due to the much bigger user and dev base in China, I'd put much heavier
> weigh on hot projects from the West, e.g. Spark, Hadoop, etc. over the
> Chinese-originated projects like Kylin. So the localization priority is
> obvious.
>

That sounds like a great start.

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ted Liu]

My apologies if misunderstood from Ted Dunning's earlier comment: " I was a 
mentor on kylin and worried about English being a problem for contribution. The 
real problem is that apache is partially defined by the use of English to allow 
as wide a participation as possible."

I trust Luke and his team are very capable of English communication 
effectively. It is just that it is still minority of such elites in China dev 
community so far and that's the reason why Chinese document for Kylin is still 
needed.

Ted

-Original Message-
From: Luke Han [mailto:luke...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 10:08 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: nic...@hedhman.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

>>I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin 
>>incubation
project and trust that you were also >>aware of the frustrations from both side 
due to language issues

I don't this is true...Language is a little bit challenge as Ted Dunning and I 
have discussed in London and San Jose many times, yes, the Chinese developers 
are not native English speakers but what we have demonstrated in Kylin 
community is both sides are happy to collaboration together, language is not a 
problem.

People intend to discuss with their native language which will bring problem to 
form "official localized community" eventfully, they will try to stay within 
local community. We should engage and bring local developers, projects to ASF, 
not only Chinese and all of the world.

There's WeChat group for Kylin but every time people raised question there we 
will re-direct them to mailing list, to keep only one place to have such 
discussion, even we have to help to translate to English. And the result is 
good (IMO), we engaged many committers from local who are participating in the 
community very well, in English.

Localization is one good idea, which also should be counted as contribution 
with relative project, we could saw there are some Chinese docs of HBase, most 
of Kylin's docs now have both English and Chinese...


Best Regards!
-

Luke Han

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> Hi Ted, Yes, we want to establish a bridge or a group (if the idea of 
> "China Community" seemed to be intimidating or crazy) to help more 
> devs become contributors and committers to popular projects from the 
> West and to help incubate more Chinese projects to become popular both 
> internationally and domestically. It aims to be a bridge to overcome 
> language barriers and culture differences so that more talents and 
> projects can exchange. We certainly hope this bridge or group can use 
> the Apache name, at least in Chinese 阿帕奇, but not really a MUST if ASF 
> doesn’t support the idea or treat it as a beast. In this case, we'd 
> probably do it with another name not violating ASF trademark.
>
> Our idea is to set up a few working groups moderated, mentored by 
> experienced Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, 
> contributors, etc. to achieve the above goals. The working groups may 
> be ranging from big data, cloud computing, dev language/framework, 
> community development (including events, meetups, localization, travel 
> assistance...), etc.
>
> I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin 
> incubation project and trust that you were also aware of the 
> frustrations from both side due to language issues (and maybe not-so-obvious 
> culture difference).
> Another example is Ali JStorm as an incubation project to the Apache 
> Storm project. Both side probably felt frustrated along the way. Even 
> though there are more English-capable IT people in China nowadays, the 
> pains and misunderstandings of using non-native languages still exist.
>
> Due to the much bigger user and dev base in China, I'd put much 
> heavier weigh on hot projects from the West, e.g. Spark, Hadoop, etc. 
> over the Chinese-originated projects like Kylin. So the localization 
> priority is obvious.
>
> Ted
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ted Dunning [mailto:ted.dunn...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:33 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Cc: nic...@hedhman.org
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> China Community
>
>
> Ted
>
> I think apache can help you with some needs, but not all.  Apache is 
> enthusiastic about helping people interact with our English-centric 
> mailing lists.  Apache would likely help you figure out how to set up 
> Chinese language open source projects as well.
>
> I don't understand if that is what you want.  You say "within apache". 
> But I also thought you wanted to help developers who don't have enough 
> English.
>
> It sounds like you need more than one answer to more than one question.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 21, 2015, at 19:24, Ted Liu  wrote:
> >
> > Our initiative wants/desires to be 

Apache on ThoughtWorks Tech Radar

[John D. Ament]

All,

In this month's posting of their tech radar, three new Apache technologies
focused on Big Data were added - Kylin, Mesos and Spark.  This is a great
accomplishment to all, and I'm wondering if there's someway of getting the
word out about it?

You can take a look at https://www.thoughtworks.com/radar/a-z#apache to see
the full list of ASF projects, but note that it matches anything with the
word apache in it.

John

RE: 答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ross Gardler]

Incubation is one area where I think we can do more than just localize content. 
I think mentors who are at least aware of Chinese culture are needed.

We, ComDev, should be a good place to help b build those mentoring teams.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Luke Han
Sent: ‎11/‎21/‎2015 6:17 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: 答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

One more important thing I would like to emphasize here is there are many
people are consulting me, our members, other ASF members in China about how
to not only contribute code but also bring some projects to ASF. That's I
would like to say more localization content, events, meetups will help a
lot to engage the local community to contribute more to ASF.



Best Regards!
-

Luke Han

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:10 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> Understood.
>
>
> Ted
> 
> 发件人: Ted Dunning
> 发送时间: ‎2015/‎11/‎21 22:06
> 收件人: dev@community.apache.org
> 主题: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> Community
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 9:53 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:
>
> > p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because it is
> > used by 500M Wechat chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn information.
> > This is a very effective China-specific scenario.
> >
>
> Note that you can use ANY channel or medium to inform people about how
> Apache works or tell them what projects do or share experiences.
>
> It is the development that has to be on the official lists.
>

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ted Liu]

Thank Niclas and Hervé, It is excited to see the great ideas to start with. If 
needed, we can help crowdsource for contributions in China and it is very 
likely to excite and attract many talented young people to contribute. 

Other than the great content, email list, webpage, etc., we can also help from 
user experience side, such as pages in Chinese for mobile or a Wechat public 
account for news, blogs publishing or other services, and social interactions 
thru Wechat or QQ, such as allowing any Chinese Apache fans to retweet and 
socialize great articles. 

p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because it is used by 
500M Wechat chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn information. This is a 
very effective China-specific scenario.


-Original Message-
From: Hervé BOUTEMY [mailto:herve.bout...@free.fr] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:56 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

thinking more about it

Imagine:
- a few localized pages in 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apache.org=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=%2fZti2MXsNqqO0quW2NRyF45mpfx7pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d
 about tooling, culture and so on + mailing list to interact
- as a first step, previous localized team could provide a little localized 
page to  each classical TLP (managed primarily in english) to explain the 
purpose of the TLP and how they can contact localized 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apache.org=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=%2fZti2MXsNqqO0quW2NRyF45mpfx7pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d
 to get help to interact with the TLP

IMHO, it's not about translating everything in every TLP: it's about putting in 
every TLP  (starting with 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.apache.org=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=1owk036Iz0L7CvCjYK79VJYn0zU%2fKsXoeTkFfi3ED5k%3d
 and 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=incubator.apache.org=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=ZvN%2ftVv2eINlLZHjEmc7jGf7xoXSRA6MXUtczeSshXk%3d)
 a localized pointer to localized helpers in community.apache.org.

Of course, if the localized team grows big, they can engage more translations 
on some TLPs.

Then +1 to creating ch...@community.apache.org + 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.apache.org%2fchina.html=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=OlA9hXKy5wFT2z%2fPNWm%2f%2fRl%2bLcCLvKxI7DwDoZVYvsE%3d
 to explain the concept And probably 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.apache.org%2finternational.html=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=o%2bhr%2b0B77v2nXFdQsAoby8ISqKHYky4i5Sluma9ViyE%3d
 to point to every localization where this process is started

Notice: instead of "china" = a country name in english, we should name it after 
language: ISO-639 alpha-3 codes seem a better choice

IMHO, easy to start and see which locales get traction

Regards,

Hervé

Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 19:34:11 Niclas Hedhman a écrit :
> I agree that translated content is a great start, if there is enough 
> energy for it.
> 
> There are three main "entry points" into Apache outside of the 
> projects themselves;
>   a. 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.apache.org=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=1owk036Iz0L7CvCjYK79VJYn0zU%2fKsXoeTkFfi3ED5k%3d
>   b. 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=incubator.apache.org=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=ZvN%2ftVv2eINlLZHjEmc7jGf7xoXSRA6MXUtczeSshXk%3d
>   c. 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apache.or
> g=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f2310010
> 8d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=%2fZti2MXsNqq
> O0quW2NRyF45mpfx7pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d
> 
> As far as I know, the actual content is in some markdown text format, 
> and should be relatively easy to get going page by page, and I am sure 
> Infrastructure will be able to let us know where to put it, and link 
> it into the user experience "somehow".
> 
> That content alone are probably volunteer-months worth of work, 
> especially since I think peer review is very important, since language 
> matters for policy and such.
> 
> *I* am also very positive to alternate language 
> 

Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Luke Han]

>>I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin incubation
project and trust that you were also >>aware of the frustrations from both
side due to language issues

I don't this is true...Language is a little bit challenge as Ted Dunning
and I have discussed in London and San Jose many times, yes, the Chinese
developers are not native English speakers but what we have demonstrated in
Kylin community is both sides are happy to collaboration together, language
is not a problem.

People intend to discuss with their native language which will bring
problem to form "official localized community" eventfully, they will try to
stay within local community. We should engage and bring local developers,
projects to ASF, not only Chinese and all of the world.

There's WeChat group for Kylin but every time people raised question there
we will re-direct them to mailing list, to keep only one place to have such
discussion, even we have to help to translate to English. And the result is
good (IMO), we engaged many committers from local who are participating in
the community very well, in English.

Localization is one good idea, which also should be counted as contribution
with relative project, we could saw there are some Chinese docs of HBase,
most of Kylin's docs now have both English and Chinese...


Best Regards!
-

Luke Han

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> Hi Ted, Yes, we want to establish a bridge or a group (if the idea of
> "China Community" seemed to be intimidating or crazy) to help more devs
> become contributors and committers to popular projects from the West and to
> help incubate more Chinese projects to become popular both internationally
> and domestically. It aims to be a bridge to overcome language barriers and
> culture differences so that more talents and projects can exchange. We
> certainly hope this bridge or group can use the Apache name, at least in
> Chinese 阿帕奇, but not really a MUST if ASF doesn’t support the idea or treat
> it as a beast. In this case, we'd probably do it with another name not
> violating ASF trademark.
>
> Our idea is to set up a few working groups moderated, mentored by
> experienced Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, contributors,
> etc. to achieve the above goals. The working groups may be ranging from big
> data, cloud computing, dev language/framework, community development
> (including events, meetups, localization, travel assistance...), etc.
>
> I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin incubation
> project and trust that you were also aware of the frustrations from both
> side due to language issues (and maybe not-so-obvious culture difference).
> Another example is Ali JStorm as an incubation project to the Apache Storm
> project. Both side probably felt frustrated along the way. Even though
> there are more English-capable IT people in China nowadays, the pains and
> misunderstandings of using non-native languages still exist.
>
> Due to the much bigger user and dev base in China, I'd put much heavier
> weigh on hot projects from the West, e.g. Spark, Hadoop, etc. over the
> Chinese-originated projects like Kylin. So the localization priority is
> obvious.
>
> Ted
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ted Dunning [mailto:ted.dunn...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:33 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Cc: nic...@hedhman.org
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> Community
>
>
> Ted
>
> I think apache can help you with some needs, but not all.  Apache is
> enthusiastic about helping people interact with our English-centric mailing
> lists.  Apache would likely help you figure out how to set up Chinese
> language open source projects as well.
>
> I don't understand if that is what you want.  You say "within apache". But
> I also thought you wanted to help developers who don't have enough English.
>
> It sounds like you need more than one answer to more than one question.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 21, 2015, at 19:24, Ted Liu  wrote:
> >
> > Our initiative wants/desires to be inside of ASF as close as possible
> and to avoid any trademark violation. If it is a no-go, I guess the
> volunteer group here will still do the right things to help enable and
> motivate developers and projects, with or without ASF’s trademark/banner.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Ross Gardler [mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 6:46 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Cc: nic...@hedhman.org
> > Subject: RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache
> > China Community
> >
> > Why do those pioneers need a place outside of the ASF to do that? If
> they do need a place outside the ASF why does it need an Apache logo on it?
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Lei Chang [mailto:chang.lei...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, 

Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ted Dunning]

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 9:53 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because it is
> used by 500M Wechat chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn information.
> This is a very effective China-specific scenario.
>

Note that you can use ANY channel or medium to inform people about how
Apache works or tell them what projects do or share experiences.

It is the development that has to be on the official lists.

Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[William A Rowe Jr]

That was my reaction.  A dev-cn@community.apache. org could be a useful
discussion vehicle to engage prospects and help with facilitating that
engagement.  It wouldn't look all that much different than the usual
English Q here on dev@c a o.

Expecting an interested contributor to rely solely on machine based
translation (which is horrid when it comes to SVO vs SOV and other
orderings) when posting to an English mailing list isn't realistic.
Engaging them to offer code patches, translations and other sorts of
engagement does seem to fall under the remit of the community pmc, no?
On Nov 21, 2015 04:58, "Hervé BOUTEMY"  wrote:

> I like the idea of doing something to better engage with China or India or
> "country of your choice" people interested in Open Source but not able
> currently because of language and cultural barriers for masses
>
> But when I read "forming the Apache China Community", I read forming
> something
> completely separate, and eventually forming a separate TLP: staying short,
> I'm
> not convinced
>
> What about creating localized content in http://community.apache.org/ ,
> pointing to dedicated non-english language mailing lists, focused on
> explaining community aspects, how to engage with Apache projects and to
> deal
> with the fact that Apache projects are done in english?
>
> Because I don't see:
> - how we could do localized lists for every Apache TLP
> - how we could do a TLP that we can't interact with in english (I can say
> it
> because I'm not native english: english language is our minimum common
> convention, and it cost me to learn it :) )
>
> But perhaps existing community TLP could have localized sub-projects
> (taking
> the form of content + mailing lists, but not code) targeted at helping
> people
> work with other TLPs
>
> WDYT?
>
> Regards,
>
> Hervé
>
> Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 18:14:11 Ted Dunning a écrit :
> > Ted,
> >
> > It is not clear that what you want to happen is not happening.
> >
> > There does seem to be an open discussion. Here and elsewhere.
> >
> > What exactly do you want to happen?
> >
> > What good thing is not happening?
> >
> > What bad thing is happening?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Nov 21, 2015, at 17:58, Ted Liu  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Niclas,
> > >
> > > It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be formed
> at
> > > ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of forming of a
> > > community, group or alike in China comes from the grass-root idea and
> > > action because there are strong demands here. Otherwise nobody would
> care
> > > and nobody could be instructed or directed. That’s the reason why a
> group
> > > of Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, contributors, etc.,
> want
> > > to work together voluntarily to change the status quo by bridging the
> > > Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The motivation and
> > > enablement of the local community/group will be mainly from the
> > > experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, who
> people
> > > will trust, instead of any individual new to ASF.
> > >
> > > Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how
> difficult
> > > it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai. One recent
> > > example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans Wechat social
> group
> > > (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a
> > > technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your
> > > location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and
> > > effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions. The
> wait
> > > of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger generation
> > > contributors would not tolerate.
> > >
> > > The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense of
> > > community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at
> > > infant stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and events
> > > (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are language
> and
> > > non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China community/group can
> > > contribute.
> > >
> > >
> > > Ted
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedh...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> > > Community
> > >
> > > Ted,
> > > 2 things...
> > >
> > > 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
> > >
> > > 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization.
> But
> > > the ASF and many other open source projects are not command
> > > driven top-down structures. So, there is very little "need" for
> "creation
> > > of communities". They either form, or they don't.
> > >
> > > I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in
> Beijing
> > > 

Re: 答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Lei Chang]

Think so too. Incubation is a good area that will motivate more people to
contribute to Apache.

There are a lot of open source projects from china started on github, and
some are very interesting, but they don't know how to make it an Apache
project. And I often get a lot questions around how Apache works, how to
become a committer,  how to get into incubation et al. To make this happen
can potentially involve these people much easily.

Cheers
Lei Chang


On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 1:24 AM, Ross Gardler 
wrote:

> Incubation is one area where I think we can do more than just localize
> content. I think mentors who are at least aware of Chinese culture are
> needed.
>
> We, ComDev, should be a good place to help b build those mentoring teams.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> 
> From: Luke Han
> Sent: ‎11/‎21/‎2015 6:17 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: 答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache
> China Community
>
> One more important thing I would like to emphasize here is there are many
> people are consulting me, our members, other ASF members in China about how
> to not only contribute code but also bring some projects to ASF. That's I
> would like to say more localization content, events, meetups will help a
> lot to engage the local community to contribute more to ASF.
>
>
>
> Best Regards!
> -
>
> Luke Han
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:10 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:
>
> > Understood.
> >
> >
> > Ted
> > 
> > 发件人: Ted Dunning
> > 发送时间: ‎2015/‎11/‎21 22:06
> > 收件人: dev@community.apache.org
> > 主题: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> > Community
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 9:53 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:
> >
> > > p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because it is
> > > used by 500M Wechat chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn
> information.
> > > This is a very effective China-specific scenario.
> > >
> >
> > Note that you can use ANY channel or medium to inform people about how
> > Apache works or tell them what projects do or share experiences.
> >
> > It is the development that has to be on the official lists.
> >
>

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ted Liu]

Got it. Will work with Sally for it.  Ted

-Original Message-
From: Ross Gardler [mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com] 
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 1:20 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

True that any channel can be used for dissemination BUT it cannot use the 
apache brand unless managed by Apache itself. In the of announcements etc that 
management will happen through our Marketing team. Though I would suggest this 
list for development of the ideas etc.

Ted, you already know Sally as you worked with her for the roadshow. Before 
creating an Apache branded WeChat channel we need to ensure Sally is prepared.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Ted Dunning
Sent: ‎11/‎21/‎2015 6:06 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 9:53 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because it 
> is used by 500M Wechat chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn information.
> This is a very effective China-specific scenario.
>

Note that you can use ANY channel or medium to inform people about how Apache 
works or tell them what projects do or share experiences.

It is the development that has to be on the official lists.

Confidential Document

[Elena Antevska]

Hi

Please kindly check the Document i sent you via Google Document.

And get back to me.
VIEW ORIGINAL DOCS HERE 

And log in with This email.
It is very important.

Regards.
Elena

答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ted Liu]

Hi Roman, As far as I know of, GSoC had been organized by CSDN, one of the 
largest IT online media in China and which is also one of the core founding 
members of KAIYUANSHE. But due to resource issue, it stopped doing so. I'm not 
sure what will be next to GSoC but can ask around.



Ted

发件人: Roman Shaposhnik
发送时间: ‎2015/‎11/‎22 2:43
收件人: ComDev
抄送: nic...@hedhman.org
主题: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 2:16 AM, Lei Chang  wrote:
> There are about 5 million college graduates each year in China, and i think 
> there is
> a great potential to increase the number of contributors from Apache
> community in China.

Speaking of which: do you know what's the status of Google Summer
of Code in China? If this is something we can leverage, perhaps
a good approach would be to invest in bilingual mentors to
tap into that student potential.

> Developing an Apache community in China needs some pioneers to get
> together, discuss, directs and organize the meetups, conferences. It would
> be very helpful to have a formal Apache community project set up to work on
> this.

If you're asking for a place -- ComDev is a perfect place for that. Please use
ComDev mailing lists, wiki, website, etc.

If you're asking for local events -- you'd have to be the one telling us what
makes sense and how can we help (send speakers, send stickers, etc., etc.).

Thanks,
Roman.

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ross Gardler]

Localized content is a great suggestion.

-Original Message-
From: Hervé BOUTEMY [mailto:herve.bout...@free.fr] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 2:58 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

I like the idea of doing something to better engage with China or India or 
"country of your choice" people interested in Open Source but not able 
currently because of language and cultural barriers for masses

But when I read "forming the Apache China Community", I read forming something 
completely separate, and eventually forming a separate TLP: staying short, I'm 
not convinced

What about creating localized content in 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.apache.org%2f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c3f189780a87344cabc1608d2f262b677%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=1RvsCGO3%2fEVJ6QXQEt%2bBcV%2bVlrhqAXHD1jAPYGjUZ6w%3d
 , pointing to dedicated non-english language mailing lists, focused on 
explaining community aspects, how to engage with Apache projects and to deal 
with the fact that Apache projects are done in english?

Because I don't see:
- how we could do localized lists for every Apache TLP
- how we could do a TLP that we can't interact with in english (I can say it 
because I'm not native english: english language is our minimum common 
convention, and it cost me to learn it :) )

But perhaps existing community TLP could have localized sub-projects (taking 
the form of content + mailing lists, but not code) targeted at helping people 
work with other TLPs

WDYT?

Regards,

Hervé

Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 18:14:11 Ted Dunning a écrit :
> Ted,
> 
> It is not clear that what you want to happen is not happening.
> 
> There does seem to be an open discussion. Here and elsewhere.
> 
> What exactly do you want to happen?
> 
> What good thing is not happening?
> 
> What bad thing is happening?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Nov 21, 2015, at 17:58, Ted Liu  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Niclas,
> > 
> > It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be 
> > formed at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of 
> > forming of a community, group or alike in China comes from the 
> > grass-root idea and action because there are strong demands here. 
> > Otherwise nobody would care and nobody could be instructed or 
> > directed. That’s the reason why a group of Chinese ASF members, PMC 
> > members, committers, contributors, etc., want to work together 
> > voluntarily to change the status quo by bridging the Chinese talents 
> > and good projects to/from ASF. The motivation and enablement of the 
> > local community/group will be mainly from the experienced Chinese 
> > ASF members, committers and contributors, who people will trust, instead of 
> > any individual new to ASF.
> > 
> > Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how 
> > difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai. 
> > One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans 
> > Wechat social group
> > (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a 
> > technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your 
> > location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and 
> > effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions. The 
> > wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger 
> > generation contributors would not tolerate.
> > 
> > The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense 
> > of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still 
> > at infant stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and 
> > events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are 
> > language and non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China 
> > community/group can contribute.
> > 
> > 
> > Ted
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedh...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> > China Community
> > 
> > Ted,
> > 2 things...
> > 
> > 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
> > 
> > 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating 
> > organization. But the ASF and many other open source projects are 
> > not command driven top-down structures. So, there is very 
> > little "need" for "creation of communities". They either form, or they 
> > don't.
> > 
> > I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in 
> > Beijing grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat older 
> > generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting to build it like 
> > a company, like a government or a religious organization. I hope 
> > that you can appreciate the difference and channel your enthusiasm slightly 
> > differently.
> > 
> > Like 

Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ted Dunning]

Ross,

How do you square opposition to a separate china org with the irreconcilable 
needs to maintain English as the language of apache with the need to allow 
non-English speaking Chinese speakers to participate?

I can't.  

To the extent that it is possible, I encourage English capable people from 
china to participate in projects like singa, Zeppelin and kylin (all Asian 
origin projects at apache). 

That satisfies part of the need. 

There is also a serious need for projects that conduct themselves in Chinese. 
(There are also likely other languages where this need arises)

Such groups cannot validly be overseen by a non-Chinese speaking board.  

How is a new Chinese speaking organization anything not important? 

I don't suggest that apache create such a beast. I would love it if apache 
veterans help with it.  If I can help, I will, but I am handicapped by my 
linguistic ignorance. As it is often said, those with the itch must do the 
scratching. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 21, 2015, at 18:43, Ross Gardler  wrote:
> 
> I'm not in favor of a separate China org. I am 100% in favor of helping you 
> and your Chinese colleagues right here and through cultural exchanges like 
> those that I talked about at ApacheCon and you have facilitated.

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ted Liu]

Yes, agreed. We can help motivate people, maybe crowdsourcing, here to help 
translate. But need to consider what contents and a streamline user experience. 
 Ted

-Original Message-
From: Ross Gardler [mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:00 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

Localized content is a great suggestion.

-Original Message-
From: Hervé BOUTEMY [mailto:herve.bout...@free.fr]
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 2:58 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

I like the idea of doing something to better engage with China or India or 
"country of your choice" people interested in Open Source but not able 
currently because of language and cultural barriers for masses

But when I read "forming the Apache China Community", I read forming something 
completely separate, and eventually forming a separate TLP: staying short, I'm 
not convinced

What about creating localized content in 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.apache.org%2f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c3f189780a87344cabc1608d2f262b677%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=1RvsCGO3%2fEVJ6QXQEt%2bBcV%2bVlrhqAXHD1jAPYGjUZ6w%3d
 , pointing to dedicated non-english language mailing lists, focused on 
explaining community aspects, how to engage with Apache projects and to deal 
with the fact that Apache projects are done in english?

Because I don't see:
- how we could do localized lists for every Apache TLP
- how we could do a TLP that we can't interact with in english (I can say it 
because I'm not native english: english language is our minimum common 
convention, and it cost me to learn it :) )

But perhaps existing community TLP could have localized sub-projects (taking 
the form of content + mailing lists, but not code) targeted at helping people 
work with other TLPs

WDYT?

Regards,

Hervé

Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 18:14:11 Ted Dunning a écrit :
> Ted,
> 
> It is not clear that what you want to happen is not happening.
> 
> There does seem to be an open discussion. Here and elsewhere.
> 
> What exactly do you want to happen?
> 
> What good thing is not happening?
> 
> What bad thing is happening?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Nov 21, 2015, at 17:58, Ted Liu  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Niclas,
> > 
> > It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be 
> > formed at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of 
> > forming of a community, group or alike in China comes from the 
> > grass-root idea and action because there are strong demands here.
> > Otherwise nobody would care and nobody could be instructed or 
> > directed. That’s the reason why a group of Chinese ASF members, PMC 
> > members, committers, contributors, etc., want to work together 
> > voluntarily to change the status quo by bridging the Chinese talents 
> > and good projects to/from ASF. The motivation and enablement of the 
> > local community/group will be mainly from the experienced Chinese 
> > ASF members, committers and contributors, who people will trust, instead of 
> > any individual new to ASF.
> > 
> > Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how 
> > difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai.
> > One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans 
> > Wechat social group
> > (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a 
> > technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your 
> > location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and 
> > effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions. The 
> > wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger 
> > generation contributors would not tolerate.
> > 
> > The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense 
> > of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still 
> > at infant stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and 
> > events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are 
> > language and non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China 
> > community/group can contribute.
> > 
> > 
> > Ted
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedh...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> > China Community
> > 
> > Ted,
> > 2 things...
> > 
> > 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
> > 
> > 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating 
> > organization. But the ASF and many other open source projects are 
> > not command driven top-down structures. So, there is very 
> > little "need" for "creation of communities". They either form, or they 
> > don't.
> > 

Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Lei Chang]

+1 for a formal community project in China.

There are some experiences I can share when some apache committers in China
are developing the community for Apache HAWQ (in incubation).

A wechat group was created, and there are many people who are very active
at ask questions and contributing ideas. This is a kind of very difficult
to happen with some Chinese native guys discussing in English. There are
about 5 million college graduates each year in China, and i think there is
a great potential to increase the number of contributors from Apache
community in China.

Developing an Apache community in China needs some pioneers to get
together, discuss, directs and organize the meetups, conferences. It would
be very helpful to have a formal Apache community project set up to work on
this.

Cheers
Lei


On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> Hi Niclas,
>
> It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be formed at
> ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of forming of a community,
> group or alike in China comes from the grass-root idea and action because
> there are strong demands here. Otherwise nobody would care and nobody could
> be instructed or directed. That’s the reason why a group of Chinese ASF
> members, PMC members, committers, contributors, etc., want to work together
> voluntarily to change the status quo by bridging the Chinese talents and
> good projects to/from ASF. The motivation and enablement of the local
> community/group will be mainly from the experienced Chinese ASF members,
> committers and contributors, who people will trust, instead of any
> individual new to ASF.
>
> Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how difficult
> it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai. One recent
> example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans Wechat social group
> (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a
> technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your location
> in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and effective
> communication to enable and motivate people's actions. The wait of a good
> machine translation is an unknown that younger generation contributors
> would not tolerate.
>
> The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense of
> community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at infant
> stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and events
> (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are language and
> non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China community/group can
> contribute.
>
>
> Ted
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedh...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> Community
>
> Ted,
> 2 things...
>
> 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
>
> 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization. But
> the ASF and many other open source projects are not command driven
> top-down structures. So, there is very little "need" for "creation of
> communities". They either form, or they don't.
>
> I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in Beijing
> grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat older generation had a
> more top-down approach, of wanting to build it like a company, like a
> government or a religious organization. I hope that you can appreciate the
> difference and channel your enthusiasm slightly differently.
>
> Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, but I have
> first hand witnessed the improvements in online translation services in the
> past few years. Enormous improvement. Perhaps we are soon at a stage where
> this can be an additional tool to bridge this gap.
>
> My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion, hacking,
> presentations are conducted, by the participants, for the participants, a
> peer-to-peer environment. Apache doesn't need to be formally involved in
> this, but I am sure many Apache contributors would be happy to participate,
> as peers, in such events/clubs. And I am convinced this will spin off both
> projects as well as dieect contribution to ASF and other projects.
>
> Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts, instead of single
> big one.
>
> Keep up the positive work.
>
> Niclas
>
> On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu"  wrote:
>
> > Hi Apache Community Development PMC,
> >
> > Wish to get some advices on how to form a community of Apache fans in
> > China. Would a new China-specific project at the ComDev be possible?
> > Please see the background and thoughts outlined below.
> >
> > Apache projects and technologies have been widely adopted in China,
> > such as Alibaba, Tencent, many enterprises, academic and public services.
> > However, there has 

Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Hervé BOUTEMY]

I like the idea of doing something to better engage with China or India or 
"country of your choice" people interested in Open Source but not able 
currently because of language and cultural barriers for masses

But when I read "forming the Apache China Community", I read forming something 
completely separate, and eventually forming a separate TLP: staying short, I'm 
not convinced

What about creating localized content in http://community.apache.org/ , 
pointing to dedicated non-english language mailing lists, focused on 
explaining community aspects, how to engage with Apache projects and to deal 
with the fact that Apache projects are done in english?

Because I don't see:
- how we could do localized lists for every Apache TLP
- how we could do a TLP that we can't interact with in english (I can say it 
because I'm not native english: english language is our minimum common 
convention, and it cost me to learn it :) )

But perhaps existing community TLP could have localized sub-projects (taking 
the form of content + mailing lists, but not code) targeted at helping people 
work with other TLPs

WDYT?

Regards,

Hervé

Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 18:14:11 Ted Dunning a écrit :
> Ted,
> 
> It is not clear that what you want to happen is not happening.
> 
> There does seem to be an open discussion. Here and elsewhere.
> 
> What exactly do you want to happen?
> 
> What good thing is not happening?
> 
> What bad thing is happening?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Nov 21, 2015, at 17:58, Ted Liu  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Niclas,
> > 
> > It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be formed at
> > ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of forming of a
> > community, group or alike in China comes from the grass-root idea and
> > action because there are strong demands here. Otherwise nobody would care
> > and nobody could be instructed or directed. That’s the reason why a group
> > of Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, contributors, etc., want
> > to work together voluntarily to change the status quo by bridging the
> > Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The motivation and
> > enablement of the local community/group will be mainly from the
> > experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, who people
> > will trust, instead of any individual new to ASF.
> > 
> > Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how difficult
> > it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai. One recent
> > example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans Wechat social group
> > (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a
> > technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your
> > location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and
> > effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions. The wait
> > of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger generation
> > contributors would not tolerate.
> > 
> > The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense of
> > community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at
> > infant stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and events
> > (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are language and
> > non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China community/group can
> > contribute.
> > 
> > 
> > Ted
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedh...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> > Community
> > 
> > Ted,
> > 2 things...
> > 
> > 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
> > 
> > 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization. But
> > the ASF and many other open source projects are not command
> > driven top-down structures. So, there is very little "need" for "creation
> > of communities". They either form, or they don't.
> > 
> > I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in Beijing
> > grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat older generation had a
> > more top-down approach, of wanting to build it like a company, like a
> > government or a religious organization. I hope that you can appreciate
> > the difference and channel your enthusiasm slightly differently.
> > 
> > Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, but I have
> > first hand witnessed the improvements in online translation services in
> > the past few years. Enormous improvement. Perhaps we are soon at a stage
> > where this can be an additional tool to bridge this gap.
> > 
> > My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion, hacking,
> > presentations are conducted, by the participants, for the participants, a
> > peer-to-peer environment. Apache doesn't need to be formally involved in
> > this, but I am sure many 

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Sarah Groves]

In fact,remove me from Apache mailing lists immidately

On Nov 21, 2015 5:37 AM, Ross Gardler  wrote:
I'm opposed to a separate Apache org, our even an apache project. Not opposed 
to a china specific org of its own. In fact I helped create KAIYUANSHE that Ted 
mentions in his original mail and up continue to help that community in the 
ways I can (I'm also linguistically challenged).

As more Chinese folks learn how we work it becomes more likely that a Chinese 
speaking community will emerge. Possibly past of the ASF, possibly something 
different.

I agree the way forward, here at Apache, is for Chinese devs, who are able, to 
engage in our projects. Some of which already have plenty of Chinese members. 
Things will grow from there.

At the same time, we in ComDev should help Ted and others in any way we can.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Ted Dunning
Sent: ‎11/‎21/‎2015 3:27 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: nic...@hedhman.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community


Ross,

How do you square opposition to a separate china org with the irreconcilable 
needs to maintain English as the language of apache with the need to allow 
non-English speaking Chinese speakers to participate?

I can't.

To the extent that it is possible, I encourage English capable people from 
china to participate in projects like singa, Zeppelin and kylin (all Asian 
origin projects at apache).

That satisfies part of the need.

There is also a serious need for projects that conduct themselves in Chinese. 
(There are also likely other languages where this need arises)

Such groups cannot validly be overseen by a non-Chinese speaking board.

How is a new Chinese speaking organization anything not important?

I don't suggest that apache create such a beast. I would love it if apache 
veterans help with it.  If I can help, I will, but I am handicapped by my 
linguistic ignorance. As it is often said, those with the itch must do the 
scratching.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 21, 2015, at 18:43, Ross Gardler  wrote:
>
> I'm not in favor of a separate China org. I am 100% in favor of helping you 
> and your Chinese colleagues right here and through cultural exchanges like 
> those that I talked about at ApacheCon and you have facilitated.

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ross Gardler]

"The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense of 
community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at infant 
stage in China." I agree. This was my conclusion when you kindly facilitated my 
trip to China earlier this year. It is that trip that motivated me to focus on 
diversity and knowledge exchange in my State of the Feather session at 
ApacheCon NA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UkQBOvVhfw around 17 minutes for 
diversity in general, 27:50 for geographic diversity)

As a result of that trip you and I cooked up the idea of an Apache Event in 
China. You made that happen with a little help from myself and a bunch of other 
ASF folks as you note below. Moments ago I sent you details of the just opened 
ApacheCon CFP and gave you my personal assurance that any Chinese folks who get 
talks accepted will have my help in connecting with ASF people and mentors 
where they are available.

I want to share some of that mail here for others to comment on:

Communities are not “formed” through the creation of such organizations. 
Communities just happen when two things align. 1) there is a common goal - 
writing the code to solve a problem in the case of the ASF and 2) there are 
people who facilitate and motivate in order to bring people together around the 
common goal. 

I hear you saying that there are “Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, 
contributors” who want this. Then they should just do it. Those are the people 
who should know how to do it and they should just get on with it and do it – in 
an Apache style – by writing code and facilitating and enabling project 
communities around that code.

There really is no magic formula. There are set of experiences that need to be 
shared so that optimal decisions can be made. What people desire is a magic 
formula called The Apache Way. I’m sorry to say there is no formula and 
therefore creating a top down structure to manage the spread of this magic 
formula will do more to kill it than enable it.

What concerns me about this proposal is that it wants to create a China 
specific Apache body because "the sense of community, governance, contribution 
and the Apache Way are still at infant stage in China". So if it is at infant 
stage who is to help guide this infant to maturity? How does the ASF provide 
guidance to this infant?

I'm not in favor of a separate China org. I am 100% in favor of helping you and 
your Chinese colleagues right here and through cultural exchanges like those 
that I talked about at ApacheCon and you have facilitated.

Ross

-Original Message-
From: Ted Liu [mailto:t...@microsoft.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 1:58 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org; nic...@hedhman.org
Subject: RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

Hi Niclas, 

It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be formed at ASF 
instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of forming of a community, group 
or alike in China comes from the grass-root idea and action because there are 
strong demands here. Otherwise nobody would care and nobody could be instructed 
or directed. That’s the reason why a group of Chinese ASF members, PMC members, 
committers, contributors, etc., want to work together voluntarily to change the 
status quo by bridging the Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The 
motivation and enablement of the local community/group will be mainly from the 
experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, who people will 
trust, instead of any individual new to ASF.

Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how difficult it is 
to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai. One recent example is that 
literally no one from the Apache Fans Wechat social group (360 people now) 
responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a technical meetup in Shanghai. 
Your ASF status and the fact of your location in Shanghai do not automatically 
translate into trust and effective communication to enable and motivate 
people's actions. The wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that 
younger generation contributors would not tolerate.

The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense of 
community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at infant 
stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and events (conferences, 
meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are language and non-Apache-Way 
culture where the proposed China community/group can contribute.


Ted

-Original Message-
From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedh...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

Ted,
2 things...

1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.

2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization. But the 
ASF and many other 

Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Hervé BOUTEMY]

thinking more about it

Imagine:
- a few localized pages in community.apache.org about tooling, culture and so 
on + mailing list to interact
- as a first step, previous localized team could provide a little localized 
page to  each classical TLP (managed primarily in english) to explain the 
purpose of the TLP and how they can contact localized community.apache.org to 
get help to interact with the TLP

IMHO, it's not about translating everything in every TLP: it's about putting 
in every TLP  (starting with www.apache.org and incubator.apache.org) a 
localized pointer to localized helpers in community.apache.org.

Of course, if the localized team grows big, they can engage more translations 
on some TLPs.

Then +1 to creating ch...@community.apache.org + 
http://community.apache.org/china.html to explain the concept
And probably http://community.apache.org/international.html to point to every 
localization where this process is started

Notice: instead of "china" = a country name in english, we should name it 
after language: ISO-639 alpha-3 codes seem a better choice

IMHO, easy to start and see which locales get traction

Regards,

Hervé

Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 19:34:11 Niclas Hedhman a écrit :
> I agree that translated content is a great start, if there is enough energy
> for it.
> 
> There are three main "entry points" into Apache outside of the projects
> themselves;
>   a. www.apache.org
>   b. incubator.apache.org
>   c. community.apache.org
> 
> As far as I know, the actual content is in some markdown text format, and
> should be relatively easy to get going page by page, and I am sure
> Infrastructure will be able to let us know where to put it, and link it
> into the user experience "somehow".
> 
> That content alone are probably volunteer-months worth of work, especially
> since I think peer review is very important, since language matters for
> policy and such.
> 
> *I* am also very positive to alternate language community.apache.org
> mailing lists. ch...@community.apache.org could be a start, and from there
> it should be possible to gauge the interest.
> 
> For the rest of ComDev; I was added to the WeChat (a Chinese WhatsApp-like
> app) group that is now 360 people. If the chatter there could be directed
> to ch...@community.apache.org, we would possibly have a semi-busy list from
> the start.
> 
> 
> Niclas
> 
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:
> > Yes, agreed. We can help motivate people, maybe crowdsourcing, here to
> > help translate. But need to consider what contents and a streamline user
> > experience.  Ted
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Ross Gardler [mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:00 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> > Community
> > 
> > Localized content is a great suggestion.
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Hervé BOUTEMY [mailto:herve.bout...@free.fr]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 2:58 AM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> > Community
> > 
> > I like the idea of doing something to better engage with China or India or
> > "country of your choice" people interested in Open Source but not able
> > currently because of language and cultural barriers for masses
> > 
> > But when I read "forming the Apache China Community", I read forming
> > something completely separate, and eventually forming a separate TLP:
> > staying short, I'm not convinced
> > 
> > What about creating localized content in
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.
> > apache.org%2f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c3f189780a87344
> > cabc1608d2f262b677%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=1RvsCGO3%2
> > fEVJ6QXQEt%2bBcV%2bVlrhqAXHD1jAPYGjUZ6w%3d , pointing to dedicated
> > non-english language mailing lists, focused on explaining community
> > aspects, how to engage with Apache projects and to deal with the fact
> > that Apache projects are done in english?
> > 
> > Because I don't see:
> > - how we could do localized lists for every Apache TLP
> > - how we could do a TLP that we can't interact with in english (I can say
> > it because I'm not native english: english language is our minimum common
> > convention, and it cost me to learn it :) )
> > 
> > But perhaps existing community TLP could have localized sub-projects
> > (taking the form of content + mailing lists, but not code) targeted at
> > helping people work with other TLPs
> > 
> > WDYT?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Hervé
> > 
> > Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 18:14:11 Ted Dunning a écrit :
> > > Ted,
> > > 
> > > It is not clear that what you want to happen is not happening.
> > > 
> > > There does seem to be an open discussion. Here and elsewhere.
> > > 
> > > What exactly do you want to happen?
> > > 
> > > What good thing is not 

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ted Liu]

Our initiative wants/desires to be inside of ASF as close as possible and to 
avoid any trademark violation. If it is a no-go, I guess the volunteer group 
here will still do the right things to help enable and motivate developers and 
projects, with or without ASF’s trademark/banner.

Ted

-Original Message-
From: Ross Gardler [mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 6:46 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: nic...@hedhman.org
Subject: RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

Why do those pioneers need a place outside of the ASF to do that? If they do 
need a place outside the ASF why does it need an Apache logo on it?

-Original Message-
From: Lei Chang [mailto:chang.lei...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 2:17 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: nic...@hedhman.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

+1 for a formal community project in China.

There are some experiences I can share when some apache committers in China are 
developing the community for Apache HAWQ (in incubation).

A wechat group was created, and there are many people who are very active at 
ask questions and contributing ideas. This is a kind of very difficult to 
happen with some Chinese native guys discussing in English. There are about 5 
million college graduates each year in China, and i think there is a great 
potential to increase the number of contributors from Apache community in China.

Developing an Apache community in China needs some pioneers to get together, 
discuss, directs and organize the meetups, conferences. It would be very 
helpful to have a formal Apache community project set up to work on this.

Cheers
Lei


On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> Hi Niclas,
>
> It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be formed 
> at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of forming of a 
> community, group or alike in China comes from the grass-root idea and 
> action because there are strong demands here. Otherwise nobody would 
> care and nobody could be instructed or directed. That’s the reason why 
> a group of Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, contributors, 
> etc., want to work together voluntarily to change the status quo by 
> bridging the Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The 
> motivation and enablement of the local community/group will be mainly 
> from the experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, 
> who people will trust, instead of any individual new to ASF.
>
> Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how 
> difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai.
> One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans 
> Wechat social group
> (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a 
> technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your 
> location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and 
> effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions. The 
> wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger 
> generation contributors would not tolerate.
>
> The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense 
> of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at 
> infant stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and 
> events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are 
> language and non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China 
> community/group can contribute.
>
>
> Ted
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedh...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> China Community
>
> Ted,
> 2 things...
>
> 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
>
> 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization. 
> But the ASF and many other open source projects are not 
> command driven top-down structures. So, there is very little 
> "need" for "creation of communities". They either form, or they don't.
>
> I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in 
> Beijing grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat older 
> generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting to build it like a 
> company, like a government or a religious organization. I hope that 
> you can appreciate the difference and channel your enthusiasm slightly 
> differently.
>
> Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, but I 
> have first hand witnessed the improvements in online translation 
> services in the past few years. Enormous improvement. Perhaps we are 
> soon at a stage where this can be an additional tool to bridge this gap.
>
> My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion, 
> hacking, 

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ted Liu]

Lei, Thanks. Ted

-Original Message-
From: Lei Chang [mailto:chang.lei...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 6:17 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: nic...@hedhman.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

+1 for a formal community project in China.

There are some experiences I can share when some apache committers in China are 
developing the community for Apache HAWQ (in incubation).

A wechat group was created, and there are many people who are very active at 
ask questions and contributing ideas. This is a kind of very difficult to 
happen with some Chinese native guys discussing in English. There are about 5 
million college graduates each year in China, and i think there is a great 
potential to increase the number of contributors from Apache community in China.

Developing an Apache community in China needs some pioneers to get together, 
discuss, directs and organize the meetups, conferences. It would be very 
helpful to have a formal Apache community project set up to work on this.

Cheers
Lei


On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> Hi Niclas,
>
> It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be formed 
> at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of forming of a 
> community, group or alike in China comes from the grass-root idea and 
> action because there are strong demands here. Otherwise nobody would 
> care and nobody could be instructed or directed. That’s the reason why 
> a group of Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, contributors, 
> etc., want to work together voluntarily to change the status quo by 
> bridging the Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The 
> motivation and enablement of the local community/group will be mainly 
> from the experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, 
> who people will trust, instead of any individual new to ASF.
>
> Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how 
> difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai. 
> One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans 
> Wechat social group
> (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a 
> technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your 
> location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and 
> effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions. The 
> wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger 
> generation contributors would not tolerate.
>
> The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense 
> of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at 
> infant stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and 
> events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are 
> language and non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China 
> community/group can contribute.
>
>
> Ted
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedh...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> China Community
>
> Ted,
> 2 things...
>
> 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
>
> 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization. 
> But the ASF and many other open source projects are not 
> command driven top-down structures. So, there is very little 
> "need" for "creation of communities". They either form, or they don't.
>
> I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in 
> Beijing grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat older 
> generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting to build it like a 
> company, like a government or a religious organization. I hope that 
> you can appreciate the difference and channel your enthusiasm slightly 
> differently.
>
> Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, but I 
> have first hand witnessed the improvements in online translation 
> services in the past few years. Enormous improvement. Perhaps we are 
> soon at a stage where this can be an additional tool to bridge this gap.
>
> My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion, 
> hacking, presentations are conducted, by the participants, for the 
> participants, a peer-to-peer environment. Apache doesn't need to be 
> formally involved in this, but I am sure many Apache contributors 
> would be happy to participate, as peers, in such events/clubs. And I 
> am convinced this will spin off both projects as well as dieect contribution 
> to ASF and other projects.
>
> Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts, instead of 
> single big one.
>
> Keep up the positive work.
>
> Niclas
>
> On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu"  wrote:
>
> > Hi Apache Community Development PMC,
> >
> > Wish to get some advices on how to form a community 

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ross Gardler]

Why do those pioneers need a place outside of the ASF to do that? If they do 
need a place outside the ASF why does it need an Apache logo on it?

-Original Message-
From: Lei Chang [mailto:chang.lei...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 2:17 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: nic...@hedhman.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

+1 for a formal community project in China.

There are some experiences I can share when some apache committers in China are 
developing the community for Apache HAWQ (in incubation).

A wechat group was created, and there are many people who are very active at 
ask questions and contributing ideas. This is a kind of very difficult to 
happen with some Chinese native guys discussing in English. There are about 5 
million college graduates each year in China, and i think there is a great 
potential to increase the number of contributors from Apache community in China.

Developing an Apache community in China needs some pioneers to get together, 
discuss, directs and organize the meetups, conferences. It would be very 
helpful to have a formal Apache community project set up to work on this.

Cheers
Lei


On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> Hi Niclas,
>
> It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be formed 
> at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of forming of a 
> community, group or alike in China comes from the grass-root idea and 
> action because there are strong demands here. Otherwise nobody would 
> care and nobody could be instructed or directed. That’s the reason why 
> a group of Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, contributors, 
> etc., want to work together voluntarily to change the status quo by 
> bridging the Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The 
> motivation and enablement of the local community/group will be mainly 
> from the experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, 
> who people will trust, instead of any individual new to ASF.
>
> Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how 
> difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai. 
> One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans 
> Wechat social group
> (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a 
> technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your 
> location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and 
> effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions. The 
> wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger 
> generation contributors would not tolerate.
>
> The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense 
> of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at 
> infant stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and 
> events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are 
> language and non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China 
> community/group can contribute.
>
>
> Ted
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedh...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> China Community
>
> Ted,
> 2 things...
>
> 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
>
> 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization. 
> But the ASF and many other open source projects are not 
> command driven top-down structures. So, there is very little 
> "need" for "creation of communities". They either form, or they don't.
>
> I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in 
> Beijing grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat older 
> generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting to build it like a 
> company, like a government or a religious organization. I hope that 
> you can appreciate the difference and channel your enthusiasm slightly 
> differently.
>
> Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, but I 
> have first hand witnessed the improvements in online translation 
> services in the past few years. Enormous improvement. Perhaps we are 
> soon at a stage where this can be an additional tool to bridge this gap.
>
> My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion, 
> hacking, presentations are conducted, by the participants, for the 
> participants, a peer-to-peer environment. Apache doesn't need to be 
> formally involved in this, but I am sure many Apache contributors 
> would be happy to participate, as peers, in such events/clubs. And I 
> am convinced this will spin off both projects as well as dieect contribution 
> to ASF and other projects.
>
> Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts, instead of 
> single big one.
>
> Keep up the positive work.
>
> Niclas
>
> On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu" 

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ross Gardler]

I'm opposed to a separate Apache org, our even an apache project. Not opposed 
to a china specific org of its own. In fact I helped create KAIYUANSHE that Ted 
mentions in his original mail and up continue to help that community in the 
ways I can (I'm also linguistically challenged).

As more Chinese folks learn how we work it becomes more likely that a Chinese 
speaking community will emerge. Possibly past of the ASF, possibly something 
different.

I agree the way forward, here at Apache, is for Chinese devs, who are able, to 
engage in our projects. Some of which already have plenty of Chinese members. 
Things will grow from there.

At the same time, we in ComDev should help Ted and others in any way we can.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Ted Dunning
Sent: ‎11/‎21/‎2015 3:27 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: nic...@hedhman.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community


Ross,

How do you square opposition to a separate china org with the irreconcilable 
needs to maintain English as the language of apache with the need to allow 
non-English speaking Chinese speakers to participate?

I can't.

To the extent that it is possible, I encourage English capable people from 
china to participate in projects like singa, Zeppelin and kylin (all Asian 
origin projects at apache).

That satisfies part of the need.

There is also a serious need for projects that conduct themselves in Chinese. 
(There are also likely other languages where this need arises)

Such groups cannot validly be overseen by a non-Chinese speaking board.

How is a new Chinese speaking organization anything not important?

I don't suggest that apache create such a beast. I would love it if apache 
veterans help with it.  If I can help, I will, but I am handicapped by my 
linguistic ignorance. As it is often said, those with the itch must do the 
scratching.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 21, 2015, at 18:43, Ross Gardler  wrote:
>
> I'm not in favor of a separate China org. I am 100% in favor of helping you 
> and your Chinese colleagues right here and through cultural exchanges like 
> those that I talked about at ApacheCon and you have facilitated.