Re: Donation 6th Status
It all comes down to the license. Most any license you run into says you can do whatever you want with the code, refactor..., as long you keep the license and follow it's requirements. Ownership is not relevant; being part of a contribution or coming from some project is not relevant; the license is all that matters. There is no grey area. It is a courtesy to inform someone you are using their code, but not required (at least I've never seen that requirement in a license). On 5/8/22 7:31 AM, Eric Bresie wrote: Thanks for the input Ernie, this is very helpful. Communication is not always an easy thing. Just because one person says something doesn't mean that others may completely understand what was being said. That's why it's important to follow up to ensure things are understood correctly and not making some wrong assumptions. More specifics below (EB =>) Eric Bresie ebre...@gmail.com On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 11:27 AM Ernie Rael wrote: > what happens now with the abandoned code? Whatever you want within the constraints of the licensing. After the following, from a thread last month, "Usage of NBPython Code [License]", following was sent around April 10, the following got general agreement, and I thought things were clarified. EB=> For reference this thread was originally more than just the Python portion in the donation but assume the same is valid for the other items listed earlier in the thread. = There still seems to be a basic misunderstanding, either yours or mine. The Apache licensing restrictions primarily have to do with what source code can be /compiled by and included in and release as an Apache project/. EB => Yes, my original plan was to integrate the nbPython as a full cluster component within Netbeans IDE proper. EB => This is why I was trying to find out the legal side of integrating it to be in compliance with Apache, Orache, and relevant parties. Secondarily, some restricted source code, such as CDDL licensed, can be compiled by a 3rd party, and still be included by the Apache team into the released Apache NetBeans project. EB => The plan was to include in NetBeans core it was assumed it would have been compiled as part NetBeans like Java, PHP, C/C++, etc. languages so as such would have been impacted by Apache and applicable licensing constraints. EB => I wasn't necessarily planning on compiling something for use by core NetBeans to be a "3rd party" product. But I suppose something could still be done in that context. IIUC, you are not working on an Apache project. It's possible you are using some code that is part of an Apache project, but that does not make your code an Apache project. EB => This is where it deverges some. EB => Originally the plan was for it to be integrated into Apache NetBeans core so at that time the assumption was that it would be "part of an Apache project" and constrained by Apache and applicable licensing constraints. Being a separate product came later. You can use any open source code with any open source license, modify it, extend it... and create a project . EB => Because of lack of donation and per recommendation elsewhere, I've started a separate new LSP based project (python4nb) with the licensing (and namespace) similar to those in Apache NetBeans presently as a starting point. So this would be a separate independent project (granted initially without all the bells and whistles of nbPython). EB => To try to speed up the process, I then started trying to leverage some code from nbPython which brings up the licensing concerns in a slightly different context (i.e. use in independent projects not Apache NetBeans project). You can put this project on the plugin portal and anyone can use it with NetBeans. EB => The expectation was to eventually be published to the plugin portal once it's more mature and less alphaware (not there yet but at some point). No restrictions. As long as you do not expect your project's source code to be included in the Apache NetBeans source code Repository. EB => There is the gray area, the nbPython has not been formally donated so it's technically not Apache source code. But It is nbPython which is part of the contribs source code of NetBeans, which I understand to be roughly Oracle ownership with eventual plan to be donated and integrated into Apache NetBeans. Which is once again why I keep bugging people about the donation. EB => I've tried going the alternative route of reaching out to the nbPython team directly but have received no input from that community either that I'm aware of. EB => The nbPython website is not 100% so unable to reach out to anyone (seehttp://nbpython.org/contact.html - forum page does not work). There are the contributors (http://nbpython.org/contributors.html) so maybe. Closest I could find for some of this wereold archive.org snapshot from many years back. EB=> Does anyone here still have any influe
Re: Donation 6th Status
Thanks for the input Ernie, this is very helpful. Communication is not always an easy thing. Just because one person says something doesn't mean that others may completely understand what was being said. That's why it's important to follow up to ensure things are understood correctly and not making some wrong assumptions. More specifics below (EB =>) Eric Bresie ebre...@gmail.com On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 11:27 AM Ernie Rael wrote: > > what happens now with the abandoned code? > > Whatever you want within the constraints of the licensing. > > After the following, from a thread last month, "Usage of NBPython Code > [License]", following was sent around April 10, the following got > general agreement, and I thought things were clarified. > > EB=> For reference this thread was originally more than just the Python portion in the donation but assume the same is valid for the other items listed earlier in the thread. > = > There still seems to be a basic misunderstanding, either yours or mine. > > The Apache licensing restrictions primarily have to do with what source > code can be /compiled by and included in and release as an Apache > project/. EB => Yes, my original plan was to integrate the nbPython as a full cluster component within Netbeans IDE proper. EB => This is why I was trying to find out the legal side of integrating it to be in compliance with Apache, Orache, and relevant parties. > Secondarily, some restricted source code, such as CDDL > licensed, can be compiled by a 3rd party, and still be included by the > Apache team into the released Apache NetBeans project. > EB => The plan was to include in NetBeans core it was assumed it would have been compiled as part NetBeans like Java, PHP, C/C++, etc. languages so as such would have been impacted by Apache and applicable licensing constraints. EB => I wasn't necessarily planning on compiling something for use by core NetBeans to be a "3rd party" product. But I suppose something could still be done in that context. > IIUC, you are not working on an Apache project. It's possible you are > using some code that is part of an Apache project, but that does not > make your code an Apache project. > EB => This is where it deverges some. EB => Originally the plan was for it to be integrated into Apache NetBeans core so at that time the assumption was that it would be "part of an Apache project" and constrained by Apache and applicable licensing constraints. Being a separate product came later. You can use any open source code with any open source license, modify > it, extend it... and create a project . EB => Because of lack of donation and per recommendation elsewhere, I've started a separate new LSP based project (python4nb) with the licensing (and namespace) similar to those in Apache NetBeans presently as a starting point. So this would be a separate independent project (granted initially without all the bells and whistles of nbPython). EB => To try to speed up the process, I then started trying to leverage some code from nbPython which brings up the licensing concerns in a slightly different context (i.e. use in independent projects not Apache NetBeans project). > You can put this project on the > plugin portal and anyone can use it with NetBeans. EB => The expectation was to eventually be published to the plugin portal once it's more mature and less alphaware (not there yet but at some point). No restrictions. As > long as you do not expect your project's source code to be included in > the Apache NetBeans source code Repository. > EB => There is the gray area, the nbPython has not been formally donated so it's technically not Apache source code. But It is nbPython which is part of the contribs source code of NetBeans, which I understand to be roughly Oracle ownership with eventual plan to be donated and integrated into Apache NetBeans. Which is once again why I keep bugging people about the donation. EB => I've tried going the alternative route of reaching out to the nbPython team directly but have received no input from that community either that I'm aware of. EB => The nbPython website is not 100% so unable to reach out to anyone (see http://nbpython.org/contact.html - forum page does not work). There are the contributors (http://nbpython.org/contributors.html) so maybe. Closest I could find for some of this wereold archive.org snapshot from many years back. EB=> Does anyone here still have any influence on management of the nbPython website? > When I look at your message it seems like you think you can not use > Apache source code, or nbPython source code, or Oracle source code. That > is not correct. You can use them. Just because your project would work > with an Apache project, does not make your project an Apache project. > EB => I thought I'd acknowledged that separately but if not...Okay so then I can use the nbPython code into my independent project as long as I
Re: Donation 6th Status
> what happens now with the abandoned code? Whatever you want within the constraints of the licensing. After the following, from a thread last month, "Usage of NBPython Code [License]", following was sent around April 10, the following got general agreement, and I thought things were clarified. = There still seems to be a basic misunderstanding, either yours or mine. The Apache licensing restrictions primarily have to do with what source code can be /compiled by and included in and release as an Apache project/. Secondarily, some restricted source code, such as CDDL licensed, can be compiled by a 3rd party, and still be included by the Apache team into the released Apache NetBeans project. IIUC, you are not working on an Apache project. It's possible you are using some code that is part of an Apache project, but that does not make your code an Apache project. You can use any open source code with any open source license, modify it, extend it... and create a project . You can put this project on the plugin portal and anyone can use it with NetBeans. No restrictions. As long as you do not expect your project's source code to be included in the Apache NetBeans source code Repository. When I look at your message it seems like you think you can not use Apache source code, or nbPython source code, or Oracle source code. That is not correct. You can use them. Just because your project would work with an Apache project, does not make your project an Apache project. -ernie On 5/7/22 8:51 AM, Eric Bresie wrote: I support Netbeans and am trying to make it a better product by adding value to it and become a better coder in the process. Short version: So what happens now with the abandoned code? Long version: I'm not a NetBean core developer, I don't speak for Apache or Oracle, I'm not a PMC member, I do not speak for any of the individual projects (in the case of Python for nbPython, for JIRA, UML, etc). As such I do not have the authority to represent on matters of "IP clearances" so forgive me for trying all due diligence to do things in an acceptable manner. Donation process is not simple and involves a lot of hard work. Past efforts have not been overlooked but have been greatly appreciated. I acknowledge Oracle probably does not want to spend any more time, money, or effort on this. Based on (1) the contribution code/participation page, the indication seems to imply the need for IP Clearance (2) in support of incubation (which has come and gone already). I believe some of the donation is pending this. Attempts have been made in the past with in most cases, at the time indication was to wait on the donations to come through before doing anything else. So if no no further actions on donations are expected, what does that mean for the remaining code? At a minimum can something be documented on the Apache Transition page to say as much (3)? So for anything not covered by previous efforts, what is to become of them? Is nothing to be done and these are abandoned work? I think indication is asking for someone to take ownership of a given project (updates licenses, maintenance, etc). Okay... When I tried in the past (7) I was basically told none of it would be accepted until the work was done against the official donation was complete (I've stopped working on it since), even after spending a significant amount of time working with what was available at the time. It was suggested work on new code which I am in the process of attempting (8). Per (4) there are a few sources of older code (5) (6). Maybe a better question is, in lieu of lack of "official donation" can the code from one of the clones/conversions be used to continue the work for the abandoned project? And if so, what is needed at a minimum for the work to be accepted by Apache and the community as a whole (i.e. is adding applicable licenses header)? I've taken in the input and tried to move things forward and tried to provide input as well...and for all my attempts, I get looked down on and rejected for the hard work in trying to fill a major gap missing in the NetBeans (i.e. Python) or add value to the code. If this is the sort of community being built, maybe I need to find another community. Eric Bresie ebre...@gmail.com References: (1) https://netbeans.apache.org/participate/submit-pr.html#contributing-code (2) https://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/ (3) https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+Transition (4) https://netbeans.apache.org/about/oracle-transition.html (5) a clone of the Mercurial repositories at http://source.apidesign.org/hg/netbeans/ (6) conversion of Mercurial to git is available at https://github.com/emilianbold/netbeans-releases (7) https://github.com/ebresie/netbeans/tree/nbpython_integration3 On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:56 PM Geertjan Wielenga wrote: Pick one of these that you (or someone else) are personal
Re: Donation 6th Status
I support Netbeans and am trying to make it a better product by adding value to it and become a better coder in the process. Short version: So what happens now with the abandoned code? Long version: I'm not a NetBean core developer, I don't speak for Apache or Oracle, I'm not a PMC member, I do not speak for any of the individual projects (in the case of Python for nbPython, for JIRA, UML, etc). As such I do not have the authority to represent on matters of "IP clearances" so forgive me for trying all due diligence to do things in an acceptable manner. Donation process is not simple and involves a lot of hard work. Past efforts have not been overlooked but have been greatly appreciated. I acknowledge Oracle probably does not want to spend any more time, money, or effort on this. Based on (1) the contribution code/participation page, the indication seems to imply the need for IP Clearance (2) in support of incubation (which has come and gone already). I believe some of the donation is pending this. Attempts have been made in the past with in most cases, at the time indication was to wait on the donations to come through before doing anything else. So if no no further actions on donations are expected, what does that mean for the remaining code? At a minimum can something be documented on the Apache Transition page to say as much (3)? So for anything not covered by previous efforts, what is to become of them? Is nothing to be done and these are abandoned work? I think indication is asking for someone to take ownership of a given project (updates licenses, maintenance, etc). Okay... When I tried in the past (7) I was basically told none of it would be accepted until the work was done against the official donation was complete (I've stopped working on it since), even after spending a significant amount of time working with what was available at the time. It was suggested work on new code which I am in the process of attempting (8). Per (4) there are a few sources of older code (5) (6). Maybe a better question is, in lieu of lack of "official donation" can the code from one of the clones/conversions be used to continue the work for the abandoned project? And if so, what is needed at a minimum for the work to be accepted by Apache and the community as a whole (i.e. is adding applicable licenses header)? I've taken in the input and tried to move things forward and tried to provide input as well...and for all my attempts, I get looked down on and rejected for the hard work in trying to fill a major gap missing in the NetBeans (i.e. Python) or add value to the code. If this is the sort of community being built, maybe I need to find another community. Eric Bresie ebre...@gmail.com References: (1) https://netbeans.apache.org/participate/submit-pr.html#contributing-code (2) https://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/ (3) https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+Transition (4) https://netbeans.apache.org/about/oracle-transition.html (5) a clone of the Mercurial repositories at http://source.apidesign.org/hg/netbeans/ (6) conversion of Mercurial to git is available at https://github.com/emilianbold/netbeans-releases (7) https://github.com/ebresie/netbeans/tree/nbpython_integration3 On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:56 PM Geertjan Wielenga wrote: > Pick one of these that you (or someone else) are personally going to be > working on, what your schedule is, your timeline, and deliverables. > > No, Oracle owes you nothing at all. No, we will not ask Oracle to donate > one more line of code that is not going to be owned by a very specific > person with an actual plan. > > Gj > > > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 19:37, Eric Bresie wrote: > > > I'm asking again, because there is more than just Python in the donation. > > > > Further, unless I've missed it, I've not seen an official "Donation 6 is > > done", "Donation 6 is ready for review" , or any such notification. > > > > Based on > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+Transition > > > > > >- JIRA support > > - > > > > jira > > - > > > > jira.rest > > - > > > > jira.xmlrpc > > - > > > > Wrappers to third party libraries > > (c.atlassian.connector.eclipse.commons.core, > > c.atlassian.connector.eclipse.jira.core, > > c.atlassian.connector.eclipse.jira.core.rest, c.s.jersey, > > c.s.mail.javax.mail, javax.servlet, javax.wsdl, javax.xml.rpc, > > javax.xml.soap, libs.jira.rest, o.apache.axis, > > o.apache.commons.discovery, > > o.codehaus.jettison, o.eclipse.mylyn.commons.soap, > > o.eclipse.mylyn.monitor.ui.dummy, o.joda.time) > > - contrib – > > - ant.freeform.samples > > - apisupport.beanbrowser > > - apisupport.projectinspector > > - autoproject.core > > - autoproject.java > > - autoproject.profiler > > - autoproject.web > > - autosave – possibly to be contributed b
Re: Donation 6th Status
Pick one of these that you (or someone else) are personally going to be working on, what your schedule is, your timeline, and deliverables. No, Oracle owes you nothing at all. No, we will not ask Oracle to donate one more line of code that is not going to be owned by a very specific person with an actual plan. Gj On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 19:37, Eric Bresie wrote: > I'm asking again, because there is more than just Python in the donation. > > Further, unless I've missed it, I've not seen an official "Donation 6 is > done", "Donation 6 is ready for review" , or any such notification. > > Based on > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+Transition > > >- JIRA support > - > > jira > - > > jira.rest > - > > jira.xmlrpc > - > > Wrappers to third party libraries > (c.atlassian.connector.eclipse.commons.core, > c.atlassian.connector.eclipse.jira.core, > c.atlassian.connector.eclipse.jira.core.rest, c.s.jersey, > c.s.mail.javax.mail, javax.servlet, javax.wsdl, javax.xml.rpc, > javax.xml.soap, libs.jira.rest, o.apache.axis, > o.apache.commons.discovery, > o.codehaus.jettison, o.eclipse.mylyn.commons.soap, > o.eclipse.mylyn.monitor.ui.dummy, o.joda.time) > - contrib – > - ant.freeform.samples > - apisupport.beanbrowser > - apisupport.projectinspector > - autoproject.core > - autoproject.java > - autoproject.profiler > - autoproject.web > - autosave – possibly to be contributed by its non-Oracle authors > rather than Oracle? > - editor.fscompletion > - gsf > - gsf.api > - gsf.tools > - gsfpath.api > - insertunicode > - java.fscompletion > - javahints > - javahints.generate > - licensechanger > - modulemanager > - mount > - o.n.contrib.debuggerretry > - python.x (15 modules, including the wrappers o.jython, > o.jython.distro) – possibly to be contributed by its non-Oracle > authors > rather than Oracle? > - quickfilechooser > - spellchecker.hunspell > - sysprops >- community clusters: > - community-xml (2326 files) > - community-uml (6365 files) > > > Eric Bresie > ebre...@gmail.com > > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 9:10 AM Geertjan Wielenga > wrote: > > > You've asked this several times at this point -- each time you've had > > an answer already. I believe there's nothing that needs to be donated > > anymore. > > > > Gj > > > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 4:03 PM Eric Bresie wrote: > > > > > > What is the current status of Donation 6? > > > > > > Is there any plans to complete this or has it been abandoned? > > > > > > Eric Bresie > > > ebre...@gmail.com > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > >
Re: Donation 6th Status
I'm asking again, because there is more than just Python in the donation. Further, unless I've missed it, I've not seen an official "Donation 6 is done", "Donation 6 is ready for review" , or any such notification. Based on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+Transition - JIRA support - jira - jira.rest - jira.xmlrpc - Wrappers to third party libraries (c.atlassian.connector.eclipse.commons.core, c.atlassian.connector.eclipse.jira.core, c.atlassian.connector.eclipse.jira.core.rest, c.s.jersey, c.s.mail.javax.mail, javax.servlet, javax.wsdl, javax.xml.rpc, javax.xml.soap, libs.jira.rest, o.apache.axis, o.apache.commons.discovery, o.codehaus.jettison, o.eclipse.mylyn.commons.soap, o.eclipse.mylyn.monitor.ui.dummy, o.joda.time) - contrib – - ant.freeform.samples - apisupport.beanbrowser - apisupport.projectinspector - autoproject.core - autoproject.java - autoproject.profiler - autoproject.web - autosave – possibly to be contributed by its non-Oracle authors rather than Oracle? - editor.fscompletion - gsf - gsf.api - gsf.tools - gsfpath.api - insertunicode - java.fscompletion - javahints - javahints.generate - licensechanger - modulemanager - mount - o.n.contrib.debuggerretry - python.x (15 modules, including the wrappers o.jython, o.jython.distro) – possibly to be contributed by its non-Oracle authors rather than Oracle? - quickfilechooser - spellchecker.hunspell - sysprops - community clusters: - community-xml (2326 files) - community-uml (6365 files) Eric Bresie ebre...@gmail.com On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 9:10 AM Geertjan Wielenga wrote: > You've asked this several times at this point -- each time you've had > an answer already. I believe there's nothing that needs to be donated > anymore. > > Gj > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 4:03 PM Eric Bresie wrote: > > > > What is the current status of Donation 6? > > > > Is there any plans to complete this or has it been abandoned? > > > > Eric Bresie > > ebre...@gmail.com > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > >
Re: Donation 6th Status
You've asked this several times at this point -- each time you've had an answer already. I believe there's nothing that needs to be donated anymore. Gj On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 4:03 PM Eric Bresie wrote: > > What is the current status of Donation 6? > > Is there any plans to complete this or has it been abandoned? > > Eric Bresie > ebre...@gmail.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Donation 6th Status
What is the current status of Donation 6? Is there any plans to complete this or has it been abandoned? Eric Bresie ebre...@gmail.com
