Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018, 22:34 Ryan Cuprak,wrote: > > My two cents, I think we should start a petition for JavaFX. > Why am I thinking that the real petition needed to happen about 5 years ago and involved numbers of people using it?! ;-) > > Note: technically I think we need JavaFX as it brings touch and rich media > support to the platform. It does give us that Webview component which > enables tighter JavaScript/HTML integration > Well as the person who accidentally ended up as the maintainer for the Java GStreamer bindings, the media lib also used in JavaFX, don't get me started on how un-rich the rich media support in JavaFX is! However, touch, etc. is something else. In fact an AWT++ that provided some necessary parts for modern desktop integration, providing just enough hooks for third-party things to link in nicely, would be something I'd like to see in the JDK, or at least fairly standardised. Best wishes, Neil -- Neil C Smith Artist & Technologist www.neilcsmith.net Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
We should petition for JavaFX to be donated to Apache. JavaFX is a strong well defined product with an enthusiastic community. Any hesitation in companies adopting it is, aside from the rise of HTML5, connected to uncertainty about Oracle’s direction and roadmap for JavaFX. In other words, what JavaFX has missed is a clear governance structure independent from a specific organization. Yes, moving a product from a company to a foundation is frought with danger and unknown unknowns. It does mean people will need to step up and actually stop talking and start coding. But based on our combined experiences with NetBeans in Apache, I’d say that sharing cost of ownership, while risky, is ultimately the right way to go Gj On Thursday, March 15, 2018, Fabrizio Giudiciwrote: > On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:45:13 +0100, cowwoc > wrote: > > That would be great. How/where do we petition for it? :) >> > > I doubt a petition would work, as I think this is a pondered management > strategy rather than something due to lack of resources, but if somebody > does it, count me in. > > Perhaps at change.org? > > -- > Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s. > "We make Java work. Everywhere." > http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > >
Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:45:13 +0100, cowwocwrote: That would be great. How/where do we petition for it? :) I doubt a petition would work, as I think this is a pondered management strategy rather than something due to lack of resources, but if somebody does it, count me in. Perhaps at change.org? -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s. "We make Java work. Everywhere." http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
That would be great. How/where do we petition for it? :) Gili On 2018-03-15 6:34 PM, Ryan Cuprak wrote: My two cents, I think we should start a petition for JavaFX. It probably is a resourcing issue at Oracle with competing groups/managers. The function of user groups/community is to provide feedback to Oracle on things we think they should invest. We shouldn’t frame it as a JavaFX versus JavaScript/HTML because that’s counterproductive. It is a good technology, people are using, and we want it at least part of the platform and not removed if not enhanced. Note: technically I think we need JavaFX as it brings touch and rich media support to the platform. It does give us that Webview component which enables tighter JavaScript/HTML integration (using a derivative of the engine used by Chrome/Safari). -Ryan On Mar 15, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Fabrizio Giudiciwrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 20:25:36 +0100, Matthias Bläsing wrote: Hi, the one thing, that annoys the hell out of me with HTML based GUIs is, that everybody reinvents everything, everytime. Matthias, you don't know how much I agree with your statement. And I know some major speakers around - also friend of mine - who think the same. This annoys me so much that sometimes I wonder whether I'd better change job. The problem is: the industry is literally intoxicated by this attitude, and I don't see we can do much to fight it. It is like that for a number of converging reasons, including the fact that, from a business point of view, it's like the classic "dig holes and then fill them", or "break windows and then fix them". Personally I've abandoned Swing time ago, but I find JavaFX pretty good. Now, unfortunately, I'm seeing even the latest "Asterix villages" that kept on developing rich client applications falling down and being pressured to move development of UIs to HTML5. In this perspective, I must say that Oracle's announce to drop JavaFX from the runtime and give it to the community, while it theoretically could be not a major problem for the survival of the technology, it's probably going to effectively kill it, because project managers will interpret the thing like an imminent death - JavaFX finding itself without a corporate sponsor. On my perspective, I can work as technology advocate, architect and supporting consultant for developers, but I'm not the typical professional figure that can influence project managers (who reason with different references than me) to the point of making their minds - and I believe many of us, unfortunately, are in the same bandwagon. So, I don't see a critical mass to change things. -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s. "We make Java work. Everywhere." http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
My two cents, I think we should start a petition for JavaFX. It probably is a resourcing issue at Oracle with competing groups/managers. The function of user groups/community is to provide feedback to Oracle on things we think they should invest. We shouldn’t frame it as a JavaFX versus JavaScript/HTML because that’s counterproductive. It is a good technology, people are using, and we want it at least part of the platform and not removed if not enhanced. Note: technically I think we need JavaFX as it brings touch and rich media support to the platform. It does give us that Webview component which enables tighter JavaScript/HTML integration (using a derivative of the engine used by Chrome/Safari). -Ryan > On Mar 15, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Fabrizio Giudici> wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 20:25:36 +0100, Matthias Bläsing > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> >> the one thing, that annoys the hell out of me with HTML based GUIs is, >> that everybody reinvents everything, everytime. > > Matthias, > > you don't know how much I agree with your statement. And I know some major > speakers around - also friend of mine - who think the same. This annoys me so > much that sometimes I wonder whether I'd better change job. > > The problem is: the industry is literally intoxicated by this attitude, and I > don't see we can do much to fight it. It is like that for a number of > converging reasons, including the fact that, from a business point of view, > it's like the classic "dig holes and then fill them", or "break windows and > then fix them". > > Personally I've abandoned Swing time ago, but I find JavaFX pretty good. Now, > unfortunately, I'm seeing even the latest "Asterix villages" that kept on > developing rich client applications falling down and being pressured to move > development of UIs to HTML5. In this perspective, I must say that Oracle's > announce to drop JavaFX from the runtime and give it to the community, while > it theoretically could be not a major problem for the survival of the > technology, it's probably going to effectively kill it, because project > managers will interpret the thing like an imminent death - JavaFX finding > itself without a corporate sponsor. > > On my perspective, I can work as technology advocate, architect and > supporting consultant for developers, but I'm not the typical professional > figure that can influence project managers (who reason with different > references than me) to the point of making their minds - and I believe many > of us, unfortunately, are in the same bandwagon. So, I don't see a critical > mass to change things. > > -- > Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s. > "We make Java work. Everywhere." > http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 20:25:36 +0100, Matthias Bläsingwrote: Hi, the one thing, that annoys the hell out of me with HTML based GUIs is, that everybody reinvents everything, everytime. Matthias, you don't know how much I agree with your statement. And I know some major speakers around - also friend of mine - who think the same. This annoys me so much that sometimes I wonder whether I'd better change job. The problem is: the industry is literally intoxicated by this attitude, and I don't see we can do much to fight it. It is like that for a number of converging reasons, including the fact that, from a business point of view, it's like the classic "dig holes and then fill them", or "break windows and then fix them". Personally I've abandoned Swing time ago, but I find JavaFX pretty good. Now, unfortunately, I'm seeing even the latest "Asterix villages" that kept on developing rich client applications falling down and being pressured to move development of UIs to HTML5. In this perspective, I must say that Oracle's announce to drop JavaFX from the runtime and give it to the community, while it theoretically could be not a major problem for the survival of the technology, it's probably going to effectively kill it, because project managers will interpret the thing like an imminent death - JavaFX finding itself without a corporate sponsor. On my perspective, I can work as technology advocate, architect and supporting consultant for developers, but I'm not the typical professional figure that can influence project managers (who reason with different references than me) to the point of making their minds - and I believe many of us, unfortunately, are in the same bandwagon. So, I don't see a critical mass to change things. -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s. "We make Java work. Everywhere." http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
Hi, the one thing, that annoys the hell out of me with HTML based GUIs is, that everybody reinvents everything, everytime. >From my perspective the best part of Swing is, that it is boring and just works. I need a Menu? Ok its there. I need a basic layout, its there, I need a toolbar. Its there. With HTML I have literally have to get to basics everytime I do something. This is like coding all java GUIs with Java2D. Noone does this. So there are a gazillion of applications, which all feel different, are handled different and all reinvent the wheel. There are a few java script frameworks, that reserve, that they solved the problem, but they are hyped for one or two years and next year another hyped framework appears. _This_ is the problem. The moment you coded something it is not current anymore. So the next flamewar will be: * which renderer to choose * which JS framework * which design * which component framework And one year later someone will come around: * why did you not choose framework A? * lets rewrite the GUI with component framework B! * I like way C much better - your code looks like crap! Lets change everything! I want components, that survive > 5 years, without the need to rebuild everything. You find a web component, that is capable of rendering HTML5 (with all bells and whistles), I'm ok with intergrating it, but religiously changing working code, I'm not ok with. before the component is integrated there are big questions: * how stable is the multiplatform development for that component? * who maintains the component? * are they really more committed to the component itself, than oracle is to Swing? I'll observe what will happen here in regards to this, but won't put energy into working for that. Matthias - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists