Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!

2018-03-15 Thread Neil C Smith 
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018, 22:34 Ryan Cuprak,  wrote:

>
> My two cents, I think we should start a petition for JavaFX.
>

Why am I thinking that the real petition needed to happen about 5 years ago
and involved numbers of people using it?! ;-)

>

> Note: technically I think we need JavaFX as it brings touch and rich media
> support to the platform. It does give us that Webview component which
> enables tighter JavaScript/HTML integration
>

Well as the person who accidentally ended up as the maintainer for the Java
GStreamer bindings, the media lib also used in JavaFX, don't get me started
on how un-rich the rich media support in JavaFX is!

However, touch, etc. is something else. In fact an AWT++ that provided some
necessary parts for modern desktop integration, providing just enough hooks
for third-party things to link in nicely, would be something I'd like to
see in the JDK, or at least fairly standardised.

Best wishes,

Neil

-- 
Neil C Smith
Artist & Technologist
www.neilcsmith.net

Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org

Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!

2018-03-15 Thread Geertjan Wielenga 
We should petition for JavaFX to be donated to Apache. JavaFX is a strong
well defined product with an enthusiastic community. Any hesitation in
companies adopting it is, aside from the rise of HTML5, connected to
uncertainty about Oracle’s direction and roadmap for JavaFX. In other
words, what JavaFX has missed is a clear governance structure independent
from a specific organization. Yes, moving a product from a company to a
foundation is frought with danger and unknown unknowns. It does mean people
will need to step up and actually stop talking and start coding. But based
on our combined experiences with NetBeans in Apache, I’d say that sharing
cost of ownership, while risky, is ultimately the right way to go

Gj

On Thursday, March 15, 2018, Fabrizio Giudici 
wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:45:13 +0100, cowwoc 
> wrote:
>
> That would be great. How/where do we petition for it? :)
>>
>
> I doubt a petition would work, as I think this is a pondered management
> strategy rather than something due to lack of resources, but if somebody
> does it, count me in.
>
> Perhaps at change.org?
>
> --
> Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s.
> "We make Java work. Everywhere."
> http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
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>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
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>
>
>
>

Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!

2018-03-15 Thread Fabrizio Giudici 

On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:45:13 +0100, cowwoc  wrote:


That would be great. How/where do we petition for it? :)


I doubt a petition would work, as I think this is a pondered management  
strategy rather than something due to lack of resources, but if somebody  
does it, count me in.


Perhaps at change.org?

--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s.
"We make Java work. Everywhere."
http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it

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Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!

2018-03-15 Thread cowwoc 

That would be great. How/where do we petition for it? :)

Gili

On 2018-03-15 6:34 PM, Ryan Cuprak wrote:

My two cents, I think we should start a petition for JavaFX. It probably is a 
resourcing issue at Oracle with competing groups/managers. The function of user 
groups/community is to provide feedback to Oracle on things we think they 
should invest. We shouldn’t frame it as a JavaFX versus JavaScript/HTML because 
that’s counterproductive. It is a good technology, people are using, and we 
want it at least part of the platform and not removed if not enhanced.

Note: technically I think we need JavaFX as it brings touch and rich media 
support to the platform. It does give us that Webview component which enables 
tighter JavaScript/HTML integration (using a derivative of the engine used by 
Chrome/Safari).

-Ryan


On Mar 15, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Fabrizio Giudici  
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 20:25:36 +0100, Matthias Bläsing 
 wrote:


Hi,


the one thing, that annoys the hell out of me with HTML based GUIs is,
that everybody reinvents everything, everytime.

Matthias,

you don't know how much I agree with your statement. And I know some major 
speakers around - also friend of mine - who think the same. This annoys me so 
much that sometimes I wonder whether I'd better change job.

The problem is: the industry is literally intoxicated by this attitude, and I don't see we can do 
much to fight it. It is like that for a number of converging reasons, including the fact that, from 
a business point of view, it's like the classic "dig holes and then fill them", or 
"break windows and then fix them".

Personally I've abandoned Swing time ago, but I find JavaFX pretty good. Now, 
unfortunately, I'm seeing even the latest "Asterix villages" that kept on 
developing rich client applications falling down and being pressured to move development 
of UIs to HTML5. In this perspective, I must say that Oracle's announce to drop JavaFX 
from the runtime and give it to the community, while it theoretically could be not a 
major problem for the survival of the technology, it's probably going to effectively kill 
it, because project managers will interpret the thing like an imminent death - JavaFX 
finding itself without a corporate sponsor.

On my perspective, I can work as technology advocate, architect and supporting 
consultant for developers, but I'm not the typical professional figure that can 
influence project managers (who reason with different references than me) to 
the point of making their minds - and I believe many of us, unfortunately, are 
in the same bandwagon. So, I don't see a critical mass to change things.

--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s.
"We make Java work. Everywhere."
http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it

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Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!

2018-03-15 Thread Ryan Cuprak 

My two cents, I think we should start a petition for JavaFX. It probably is a 
resourcing issue at Oracle with competing groups/managers. The function of user 
groups/community is to provide feedback to Oracle on things we think they 
should invest. We shouldn’t frame it as a JavaFX versus JavaScript/HTML because 
that’s counterproductive. It is a good technology, people are using, and we 
want it at least part of the platform and not removed if not enhanced.

Note: technically I think we need JavaFX as it brings touch and rich media 
support to the platform. It does give us that Webview component which enables 
tighter JavaScript/HTML integration (using a derivative of the engine used by 
Chrome/Safari).

-Ryan

> On Mar 15, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Fabrizio Giudici  
> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 20:25:36 +0100, Matthias Bläsing 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> 
>> the one thing, that annoys the hell out of me with HTML based GUIs is,
>> that everybody reinvents everything, everytime.
> 
> Matthias,
> 
> you don't know how much I agree with your statement. And I know some major 
> speakers around - also friend of mine - who think the same. This annoys me so 
> much that sometimes I wonder whether I'd better change job.
> 
> The problem is: the industry is literally intoxicated by this attitude, and I 
> don't see we can do much to fight it. It is like that for a number of 
> converging reasons, including the fact that, from a business point of view, 
> it's like the classic "dig holes and then fill them", or "break windows and 
> then fix them".
> 
> Personally I've abandoned Swing time ago, but I find JavaFX pretty good. Now, 
> unfortunately, I'm seeing even the latest "Asterix villages" that kept on 
> developing rich client applications falling down and being pressured to move 
> development of UIs to HTML5. In this perspective, I must say that Oracle's 
> announce to drop JavaFX from the runtime and give it to the community, while 
> it theoretically could be not a major problem for the survival of the 
> technology, it's probably going to effectively kill it, because project 
> managers will interpret the thing like an imminent death - JavaFX finding 
> itself without a corporate sponsor.
> 
> On my perspective, I can work as technology advocate, architect and 
> supporting consultant for developers, but I'm not the typical professional 
> figure that can influence project managers (who reason with different 
> references than me) to the point of making their minds - and I believe many 
> of us, unfortunately, are in the same bandwagon. So, I don't see a critical 
> mass to change things.
> 
> --
> Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s.
> "We make Java work. Everywhere."
> http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> 
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> 
> 
> 



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AW: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!

2018-03-15 Thread Christian Lenz 
Hey Jaroslav,

very great Statement and very thx for category 3 . I like your thinking. Of 
Course my category is not that big, I totally agree with you but this category 
could be better, sooner or later. I think the Topics that I already said AND 
some other stuff like it is not real known that we can create UIs for NetBeans 
or in Java, Independent from NetBeans with HTML, CSS and JS. Did you know, that 
you can create plugins for Photoshop or Illustrator with HTML, JS and CSS too? 
Pure JS, HTML and CSS no bindings with other languages.  It is called Adobe 
Extension builder: 
https://www.adobe.com/devnet/creativesuite/cs-extension-builder.html So I 
didn’t know that, until I found a Google entry for that so maybe this is a PR 
Problem? Could be, only my opinion. If a lot of more People, knows that 
possibilty, they will do the same as me, I think.

Don’t worry, of Course I will help you to help me to make that stuff for my 
category better and better. Maybe we can have a skype call one day. Then I can 
explain my Needs with my NbScratchFile for example.

Words to wade again, why I’m not contributing to other platforms like VS Code, 
because NetBeans is my Development Enviroment, I know it good, not best but I 
know it. I know that VS Code for example is better for Angular Support or Vue, 
same as WebStorm or PHPStorm, believe me, they are better, NetBeans is lack of 
lots of Features which the others already have. I have a big list of tickets 
that I have to migrate to Jira and a lot that is not written yet, but I will 
make NetBeans better and better and if I have a better possibility to create 
UIs with my Technology, I swear I will create more and more. It took me not 
that Long to create the NbScratchFile v2 plugin with the Knockout UI, because 
it was very easy. The other part was the bindin to Java, that was also ok.

When I tried to create the same with Swing or JavaFX, I know that I will be 
slower and find more Problems to solve than with my stuff.


Cheers

Chris

Von: Jaroslav Tulach
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. März 2018 20:03
An: Apache NetBeans
Betreff: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!

Hello guys,
thanks again for all your replies. Rather than answering them one by one
I'd like to provide following "classification summary". Looks like there
are three major streams of opinions:

1. Experienced Swing/FX developers willing/being forced to move closer to
Web
2. Experienced Swing/FX developers (sort of) OK with current state
3. Experienced Web developers wishing to code for NetBeans with their
technology

I belong into the category #1 - while I like Swing and I see its value for
development of desktop applications, I know that these days projects don't
start with desktop being the primary target. Everyone wants to get to
cloud, and the remaining ones want to get mobile. None of that can be done
with Swing. Even Zoran admits that he'd like to write his application in a
style that would allow him to run it from a web site as well as NetBeans.
That (in my opinion) rules Swing out and that is the reason why I designed
HTML/Java API & co.

The category #3 isn't huge. Why would somebody who have seen "the future"
looked back? Why would a Java developer tried to learn COBOL? In spite of
that we have one active voice among us - Christian. I am thankful for
having him around and I wish him to survive our attacks against JavaScript
and HTML well. If we want to move forward with support of HTML(/Java) in
NetBeans we need his knowledge of contemporary build and coding practices
used by the web developers.

The category #2 is surprisingly (to me) huge (I am counting suggestions to
use SWT or OpenGL here as well), but there is a truth in such position:
Swing and JavaFX are here and they aren't going away. If they work for you,
there is no reason to search for something else. They will always continue
to work.


Knowing the categories, I'd like to offer something to each of you with the
goal to keep you motivated to work with us towards a goal you can agree to:

The NetBeans Platform roots are built around Swing - e.g. #2 category - and
I am 100% sure we want to keep those roots untouched. If you are happy with
NetBeans Platform as it is, don't worry - it will continue to work for you.
We have a long time track of keeping backward compatibility while moving
the system forward (for example the HTML/Java is already in and nothing bad
happened), so we can promise that your Swing/FX usecase isn't going to be
affected.

I am dedicated to move more and more HTML based UI into the system. I have
to: I am asked to develop web based solutions and I don't want to write my
code twice. I want to write code that works in the web as well as in
NetBeans. I am looking at that from a category #1 perspective - e.g. I want
Java oriented tools most of the time. On the other hand I understand the
desire of Christian to improve the #3 point of view. That shall happen as
well: make sure web

Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!

2018-03-15 Thread Fabrizio Giudici 
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 20:25:36 +0100, Matthias Bläsing  
 wrote:



Hi,


the one thing, that annoys the hell out of me with HTML based GUIs is,
that everybody reinvents everything, everytime.


Matthias,

you don't know how much I agree with your statement. And I know some major  
speakers around - also friend of mine - who think the same. This annoys me  
so much that sometimes I wonder whether I'd better change job.


The problem is: the industry is literally intoxicated by this attitude,  
and I don't see we can do much to fight it. It is like that for a number  
of converging reasons, including the fact that, from a business point of  
view, it's like the classic "dig holes and then fill them", or "break  
windows and then fix them".


Personally I've abandoned Swing time ago, but I find JavaFX pretty good.  
Now, unfortunately, I'm seeing even the latest "Asterix villages" that  
kept on developing rich client applications falling down and being  
pressured to move development of UIs to HTML5. In this perspective, I must  
say that Oracle's announce to drop JavaFX from the runtime and give it to  
the community, while it theoretically could be not a major problem for the  
survival of the technology, it's probably going to effectively kill it,  
because project managers will interpret the thing like an imminent death -  
JavaFX finding itself without a corporate sponsor.


On my perspective, I can work as technology advocate, architect and  
supporting consultant for developers, but I'm not the typical professional  
figure that can influence project managers (who reason with different  
references than me) to the point of making their minds - and I believe  
many of us, unfortunately, are in the same bandwagon. So, I don't see a  
critical mass to change things.


--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s.
"We make Java work. Everywhere."
http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it

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Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!

2018-03-15 Thread Matthias Bläsing 
Hi,


the one thing, that annoys the hell out of me with HTML based GUIs is,
that everybody reinvents everything, everytime.

>From my perspective the best part of Swing is, that it is boring and
just works. I need a Menu? Ok its there. I need a basic layout, its
there, I need a toolbar. Its there. With HTML I have literally have to
get to basics everytime I do something. This is like coding all java
GUIs with Java2D. Noone does this.

So there are a gazillion of applications, which all feel different, are
handled different and all reinvent the wheel. There are a few java
script frameworks, that reserve, that they solved the problem, but they
are hyped for one or two years and next year another hyped framework
appears.

_This_ is the problem. The moment you coded something it is not current
anymore. So the next flamewar will be:

 * which renderer to choose
 * which JS framework
 * which design
 * which component framework

And one year later someone will come around:

 * why did you not choose framework A?
 * lets rewrite the GUI with component framework B!
 * I like way C much better - your code looks like crap! Lets change
   everything!

I want components, that survive > 5 years, without the need to rebuild
everything.

You find a web component, that is capable of rendering HTML5 (with all
bells and whistles), I'm ok with intergrating it, but religiously
changing working code, I'm not ok with. before the component is
integrated there are big questions:

 * how stable is the multiplatform development for that component?
 * who maintains the component?
 * are they really more committed to the component itself, than oracle
   is to Swing?

I'll observe what will happen here in regards to this, but won't put
energy into working for that.

Matthias




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The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!

2018-03-15 Thread Jaroslav Tulach 
Hello guys,
thanks again for all your replies. Rather than answering them one by one
I'd like to provide following "classification summary". Looks like there
are three major streams of opinions:

1. Experienced Swing/FX developers willing/being forced to move closer to
Web
2. Experienced Swing/FX developers (sort of) OK with current state
3. Experienced Web developers wishing to code for NetBeans with their
technology

I belong into the category #1 - while I like Swing and I see its value for
development of desktop applications, I know that these days projects don't
start with desktop being the primary target. Everyone wants to get to
cloud, and the remaining ones want to get mobile. None of that can be done
with Swing. Even Zoran admits that he'd like to write his application in a
style that would allow him to run it from a web site as well as NetBeans.
That (in my opinion) rules Swing out and that is the reason why I designed
HTML/Java API & co.

The category #3 isn't huge. Why would somebody who have seen "the future"
looked back? Why would a Java developer tried to learn COBOL? In spite of
that we have one active voice among us - Christian. I am thankful for
having him around and I wish him to survive our attacks against JavaScript
and HTML well. If we want to move forward with support of HTML(/Java) in
NetBeans we need his knowledge of contemporary build and coding practices
used by the web developers.

The category #2 is surprisingly (to me) huge (I am counting suggestions to
use SWT or OpenGL here as well), but there is a truth in such position:
Swing and JavaFX are here and they aren't going away. If they work for you,
there is no reason to search for something else. They will always continue
to work.


Knowing the categories, I'd like to offer something to each of you with the
goal to keep you motivated to work with us towards a goal you can agree to:

The NetBeans Platform roots are built around Swing - e.g. #2 category - and
I am 100% sure we want to keep those roots untouched. If you are happy with
NetBeans Platform as it is, don't worry - it will continue to work for you.
We have a long time track of keeping backward compatibility while moving
the system forward (for example the HTML/Java is already in and nothing bad
happened), so we can promise that your Swing/FX usecase isn't going to be
affected.

I am dedicated to move more and more HTML based UI into the system. I have
to: I am asked to develop web based solutions and I don't want to write my
code twice. I want to write code that works in the web as well as in
NetBeans. I am looking at that from a category #1 perspective - e.g. I want
Java oriented tools most of the time. On the other hand I understand the
desire of Christian to improve the #3 point of view. That shall happen as
well: make sure web developers can extend NetBeans without major problems.
Hopefully Christian will be able to help with that.

Geertjan asked for a vision for the NetBeans Platform, here is one: ideally
I want to have a replacement of core.windows module (which organizes Swing
based TopComponent, menu and toolbars in a Swing JFrame) with
core.htmlwindows reimplementation (that would show a browser and rendered
everything - menu, toolbar, components - via browser pipeline). Of course
such module would be fully optional. Right now we can mix Swing and HTML
based UI next to each other in a JFrame context, with the above module the
same shall be possible[1] in an browser-like renderer.

It is a long term vision, but if there is enough will, it is not
unrealistic to achieve it. In any case, thanks for a lively and inspiring
discussion we had so far.
-jt


[1] There was a request to render Swing in HTML. I am glad to say that I
have a Graphics that renders in HTML and I managed to render Visual Library
scene this way. The result was 1:1 and the branch of my experiment is here:
https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/compare/master...JaroslavTulach:jtulach/PortableVisualLibrary?expand=1
- help with improving the Graphics context to render JButton (for example)
is more than welcomed.