dbxtool service errors (was: Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu)

[Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski]

Hello, Gerald.
Sorry for late reply, I managed to catch up with this thread only now.

On Wednesday, 20 June 2018 at 18:01, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 4:56 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
> domi...@greysector.net> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 20 June 2018 at 07:54, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > [...]
> > > The dbxtool.service message is associated with rhbz#1508808
> >
> > Thanks to this, I checked my machine and filed:
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1593258
> > because I'm seeing a different variation of yours.
> 
> Actually, that is the error I am receiving... is your SecureBoot enabled or
> disabled?
> 
> You can check by:  mokutil --sb-state

It's enabled and mokutil confirms it:
$ mokutil --sb-state
SecureBoot enabled

Regards,
Dominik
-- 
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Gerald B. Cox]

Actually, that is the error I am receiving... is your SecureBoot enabled or
disabled?

You can check by:  mokutil --sb-state

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 4:56 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
domi...@greysector.net> wrote:

> On Wednesday, 20 June 2018 at 07:54, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> [...]
> > The dbxtool.service message is associated with rhbz#1508808
>
> Thanks to this, I checked my machine and filed:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1593258
> because I'm seeing a different variation of yours.
>
> Regards,
> Dominik
> --
> Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPMFusion   http://rpmfusion.org
> There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
> oppression to develop psychic muscles.
> -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Jerry James]

On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 11:55 PM Gerald B. Cox  wrote:
> The mcelog.service message is associated with rhbz#1166978
> The dbxtool.service message is associated with rhbz#1508808
> The rngd.service message is associated with rhbz#1490632

And abrt-xorg.service fails in some cases; see rhbz #1482230.
-- 
Jerry James
http://www.jamezone.org/
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski]

On Wednesday, 20 June 2018 at 07:54, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
[...]
> The dbxtool.service message is associated with rhbz#1508808

Thanks to this, I checked my machine and filed:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1593258
because I'm seeing a different variation of yours.

Regards,
Dominik
-- 
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oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Gerald B. Cox]

Here is another bug that was opened in 2014 and closed "WONTFIX because it
was directly tied to F24.  Here we are with F28
and it still exists:  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1166978

Again, if we're concerned about the cleaning up of the boot process, why
are we apparently ignoring bugs that are associated
with processes that fail and throw out spurious messages?

If I issue:  systemctl status, it tells me my system is "degraded" because
of the following:

systemctl list-units --state=failed
  UNITLOAD   ACTIVE SUB
DESCRIPTION
● dbxtool.service loaded failed failed Secure Boot DBX (blacklist)
updater
● mcelog.service  loaded failed failed Machine Check Exception Logging
Daemon
● rngd.serviceloaded failed failed Hardware RNG Entropy Gatherer Daemon

The mcelog.service message is associated with rhbz#1166978
The dbxtool.service message is associated with rhbz#1508808
The rngd.service message is associated with rhbz#1490632






On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 10:02 AM, Gerald B. Cox  wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 2:07 AM, Hans de Goede  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 04-06-18 21:17, Adam Williamson wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 2018-05-31 at 12:43 +0200, Jan Kurik wrote:
>>>
 = Proposed System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu =
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/HiddenGrubMenu

>>>
>>>
> I've updated this bug:  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/
> show_bug.cgi?id=1406844
>
> Basically, since at least F24 - maybe longer my boot has been interrupted
> by this message:
>
> > sp5100-tco sp5100-tco: I/O address 0x0cd6 already in use
>
> The bug was closed, and then cloned and reopened.
>
> As I mentioned before, I have no problem with the grub change as long as
> there is documentation
> that shows people how to reverse it if they wish - and Hans (thank you
> very much) has agreed to this.
>
> However, seems to me that having this bug (which appears to affect all AMD
> users) languishing
> for years seems to negate the reasoning behind this change.  If we're
> wanting to implement
> a more or less cosmetic change which saves a few seconds, having spurious
> messages
> interrupting and slowing down the boot process should also be resolved.
>
>
>
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Hans de Goede]

Hi,

On 10-06-18 19:02, Gerald B. Cox wrote:

On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 2:07 AM, Hans de Goede mailto:hdego...@redhat.com>> wrote:

Hi,

On 04-06-18 21:17, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2018-05-31 at 12:43 +0200, Jan Kurik wrote:

= Proposed System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu =
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/HiddenGrubMenu 




I've updated this bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1406844

Basically, since at least F24 - maybe longer my boot has been interrupted by 
this message:

> sp5100-tco sp5100-tco: I/O address 0x0cd6 already in use

The bug was closed, and then cloned and reopened.

As I mentioned before, I have no problem with the grub change as long as there 
is documentation
that shows people how to reverse it if they wish - and Hans (thank you very 
much) has agreed to this.

However, seems to me that having this bug (which appears to affect all AMD 
users) languishing
for years seems to negate the reasoning behind this change.  If we're wanting 
to implement
a more or less cosmetic change which saves a few seconds, having spurious 
messages
interrupting and slowing down the boot process should also be resolved.


I agree and I have this on my radar too.

Regards,

Hans
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 2:07 AM, Hans de Goede  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 04-06-18 21:17, Adam Williamson wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2018-05-31 at 12:43 +0200, Jan Kurik wrote:
>>
>>> = Proposed System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu =
>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/HiddenGrubMenu
>>>
>>
>>
I've updated this bug:  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1406844

Basically, since at least F24 - maybe longer my boot has been interrupted
by this message:

> sp5100-tco sp5100-tco: I/O address 0x0cd6 already in use

The bug was closed, and then cloned and reopened.

As I mentioned before, I have no problem with the grub change as long as
there is documentation
that shows people how to reverse it if they wish - and Hans (thank you very
much) has agreed to this.

However, seems to me that having this bug (which appears to affect all AMD
users) languishing
for years seems to negate the reasoning behind this change.  If we're
wanting to implement
a more or less cosmetic change which saves a few seconds, having spurious
messages
interrupting and slowing down the boot process should also be resolved.
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Hans de Goede]

Hi,

On 08-06-18 00:35, Gerald B. Cox wrote:



On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 2:07 AM, Hans de Goede mailto:hdego...@redhat.com>> wrote:



A question to you (and the Fedora community in general) where
should the documentation for this live ? I would like to have
something longer lived then the Changes wiki page or the
release notes.


If it were me, I would put it in:

1.  The release notes for F29
2.  The System Administrator's Guide for F29 and all subsequent releases


Thanks the sysadmin guide is a good place, I will document it
there and link from the release-notes to the sysadmin guide
for details.

Regards,

Hans
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 2:07 AM, Hans de Goede  wrote:

>
>
> A question to you (and the Fedora community in general) where
> should the documentation for this live ? I would like to have
> something longer lived then the Changes wiki page or the
> release notes.
>

If it were me, I would put it in:

1.  The release notes for F29
2.  The System Administrator's Guide for F29 and all subsequent releases
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Hans de Goede]

Hi,

On 04-06-18 21:17, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2018-05-31 at 12:43 +0200, Jan Kurik wrote:

= Proposed System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu =
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/HiddenGrubMenu


We (QA) would like to note that the "How to test" section of this
Change seems heavily under-developed:

"1. Install Fedora in a fresh vm or select reclaim diskspace -> delete
all in the installer (od a single os install).
2. Boot the system the grub menu should not show
3. (Re)boot press F8 repeatedly when the firmware / vendor logo shows,
you should now get the grub menu"

I mean, that doesn't even consider testing that the change is *not*
applied when doing a "multi OS" install, which is explicitly part of
the Change. As a *bare minimum*, that needs to be covered.


You are completely right. I've updated the wiki page:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/HiddenGrubMenu

To reflect all the discussed changes (Workstation only, only hide the
menu after a boot which sets the boot + shutdown success flags,
make it easier to unhide the menu) and I've updated.

And I've updated the test plan both to reflect the discussed changes
and to address your concerns.


It also doesn't cover other situations. One brought up at our QA
meeting was - what happens if you install Fedora first and then another
Linux distribution second?

The Change as a whole doesn't seem to consider what should happen in
this case, which seems like an omission; obviously if there *is* an
expected outcome in this case, the "How to test" section should cover
testing it.


The outcome will depend on how grub2-mkconfig's detects this, assuming
it correctly detects this other Linux as another OS then the auto-hide
feature will be disabled. Note that if Fedora's grub is to be used
after installing another Linux then grub2-mkconfig needs to be re-run
to get menu entries for the new Linux. So this is a scenario which
will always require manual setup. At which point manually calling:

sudo grub2-editenv - unset menu_auto_hide

To disable the auto-hide feature should not be a problem. Note that
as Peter suggested the feature is now controlled by an environment
variable, so it can be easily turned on/off by doing:

sudo grub2-editenv - set menu_auto_hide=1
sudo grub2-editenv - unset menu_auto_hide

Without needing to generate grub.cfg (and potentially loosing
manual changes there).

We do need to document this properly. As said before, I promise
I will write docs for this once things have settled a bit.

A question to you (and the Fedora community in general) where
should the documentation for this live ? I would like to have
something longer lived then the Changes wiki page or the
release notes.

Regards,

Hans
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Hans de Goede]

Hi,

On 01-06-18 22:29, Peter Jones wrote:

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:14:57PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:

Once upon a time, Jason L Tibbitts III  said:

If we're going to patch grub to expand the set of keys it will watch
for, is it possible to just expand the set to encompass all keys?  We
don't really need to make it that hard to find the grub menu, do we?


To add: printing a message to the screen for only a few seconds can be
almost useless, as many times monitors take those same seconds to sync
to the output of the GRUB screen (it seems to always be in a different
mode from the BIOS/UEFI boot screen).


One of the outcomes of the work Hans has done and coordinated so far is
that on most UEFI machines, we should be able to switch from the
graphics the firmware has presented to our own content without a
re-sync.


So IMHO, taking any key would be good because not only do I not have
to remember a specific one or few keys, I don't have to read a message
that is only actually visible for 0.2 seconds.


Currently the code accepts any key the firmware supports to stop the
countdown.  That pretty much means:

- On most EFI machines we don't detect modifiers that aren't modifying
   anything: ctrl-a works but ctrl doesn't.  Strictly speaking some
   machines could support this, but we don't have code right now to do
   it[0].
- Intel-based Mac machines are like the above, but also Ctrl doesn't
   work at all and will mask us from seeing the other key being pressed.
   This is because they don't implement the protocol to get key state at
   all.
- If you're on a serial console, F keys don't work (but also they're bad
   choices to use anyway, because firmware likes to use them a lot.)
- In general everything else should work.

[0] Maybe something like this; the machine in front of me right now
doesn't support it.  Someone let me know if it works:
https://pjones.fedorapeople.org/0001-EFI-console-getkey-Fix-shift-ctrl-alt-when-pressed-a.patch


So this does not work as is, because grub expects grub_getkey()
to return e.g. an ascii 'A' for things like SHIFT + A not
"A" + the shift mod bit.

But it did point me in the right direction to add getkeystatus
(which returns modifiers) support to the EFI console code,
this is a bit tricky but it works.

With this in place I can now make the GRUN menu show when
hidden on EFI machines by simply keeping SHIFT held down
during boot, which is quite nice.

I'm going to submit a pull-req to you with various patches
related to the grub work which I've been doing, including
the patches for adding getkeystatus to the EFI console code.

Regards,

Hans
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Till Maas]

Hi,

On Mon, Jun 04, 2018 at 05:09:46PM +0200, Vít Ondruch wrote:

> Talking from my experience running Rawhide on two my laptops for ~5
> years, I really don't remember where I would really need to use older
> kernel. If I had to, it was probably due to something like audio issues
> with my docking station and that is hardly the situation you describe.

for other people working audio can be essential, e.g. when doing video
conferences. I remember problems with VGA output problems that were
introduced with a kernel with full FLOSS intel drivers which is also
essential for presentations.

Kind regards
Till
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Panu Matilainen]

On 06/04/2018 06:09 PM, Vít Ondruch wrote:



Dne 1.6.2018 v 16:29 Ken Coar napsal(a):

On 06/01/2018 05:06 AM, Vít Ondruch wrote:

It is irony, that people, who are capable to get into the grub menu if
they need, complain about it being hidden. So to say, I am 100% for
hiding the grub menu, speeding up the boot process, and if need it, I'll
find a way to get it.

I fail to see any irony here.  When I need to get into the
grub menu, it's usually an emergency (or at least highly-stressful)
situation, with no documentation handy, and flailing about
trying to figure out how to make it appear just adds to the
stress and the blue tinge of the air in my vicinity.

What *exactly* is this trying to solve?

IIRC, the patch is to hide the grub menu IFF there's only one
kernel because 'it serves no useful function.'  A number of
people (myself included) have disputed that assertion.  If
the assertion is invalid, the patch shouldn't be applied.
Correct?  That seems simple enough.  Or maybe I don't understand
the process, lacking sufficient Fedora-devel-fu karma.

How many non-tech end users install Fedora straight
from the distro, as opposed to those who install a frobbed
version, with different defaults, from a repackager?
_I.e._, repackagers can set grub up however they like.

Is Fedora's goal to be end-user friendly, tech friendly, or
the all-singing all-dancing Linux distro?


Talking from my experience running Rawhide on two my laptops for ~5
years, I really don't remember where I would really need to use older
kernel. If I had to, it was probably due to something like audio issues
with my docking station and that is hardly the situation you describe.

In my family, there are another 2 computers running Fedora. I don't
remember any kernel related issues. And if there were kernel issues,
explaining my sister that she should use older kernel would be similarly
difficult if the menu is displayed or not.


While we're comparing experiences, all our computers run on Fedora. And 
while issues are rare, there have been some. The most recent one (last 
year IIRC) was a laptop freezing in middle of boot after certain kernel 
>= x.y.z for several months before whateveritwas got fixed. If a 13 
year old kid learns to select the kernel from the menu after seeing it 
once...




But the true is, that the computers are not using any proprietary
drivers, which might be issue.


Neither was the laptop in the above case, FWIW. Regressions do happen.

- Panu -
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2018-05-31 at 12:43 +0200, Jan Kurik wrote:
> = Proposed System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu =
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/HiddenGrubMenu

We (QA) would like to note that the "How to test" section of this
Change seems heavily under-developed:

"1. Install Fedora in a fresh vm or select reclaim diskspace -> delete
all in the installer (od a single os install).
2. Boot the system the grub menu should not show
3. (Re)boot press F8 repeatedly when the firmware / vendor logo shows,
you should now get the grub menu"

I mean, that doesn't even consider testing that the change is *not*
applied when doing a "multi OS" install, which is explicitly part of
the Change. As a *bare minimum*, that needs to be covered.

It also doesn't cover other situations. One brought up at our QA
meeting was - what happens if you install Fedora first and then another
Linux distribution second?

The Change as a whole doesn't seem to consider what should happen in
this case, which seems like an omission; obviously if there *is* an
expected outcome in this case, the "How to test" section should cover
testing it.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Przemek Klosowski]

On 05/31/2018 04:54 PM, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote:

Plus, there's an upside: if you're hammering F11 or F8 or F12 or Esc or
whatever to try and get into the BIOS, and you miss it, then at least
you stop in grub instead of going straight into the OS.


A big part of the 'dark pattern' of the current boot process is that 
there is rarely a feedback for all those keystroke events. We are 
conditioned to go full Rachmaninoff on the keyboard---I usually try to 
play chords and/or crescendos of Escape, F2, F8, F9 and F12.


Recent DELL BIOS/EFI firmware flashes short announcements ('Press F2 for 
system configuration') and acknowledges seeing keystrokes ("Entering 
boot selection menu"). Even though the response is not very real-time, 
it's still a big improvement over the old "typing into the dark and 
hoping something happens".


It would be a step forward if the proposed new boot process printed out 
a message as soon as it saw something important happen, e.g.


"F12 key pressed; entering boot selection menu. Other keys include F8 
for ... and Esc for ..."


"Previous OS boot incomplete or unsuccessful; entering boot selection menu"

"Unrecognized key pressed. Valid boot selection keys include F12 (boot 
selection), F8 (...) ..."

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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Chris Murphy]

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 1:22 AM, Till Maas  wrote:

>
> My proposal was for the instructions to recommend pressing a certain key
> but still accepting any key in grub, then there is no lie, since "Press
> space to enter grub" is still true when other keys allow the same.

I'm still not a fan because it's not accurate. But it isn't terrible
and isn't a hill I'm gonna die on.



>> >Also it would be awesome if it was still possible to easily
>> > reboot to grub after the kernel took over, e.g. from the harddisk
>> > password screen, GDM login screen and Gnome logout dialog. Then you can
>> > just make it user-friendly and obvious.
>>
>> password screen is a plymouth feature request; from what I'm looking
>> at gdm login and gnome logout dialog both have a restart option which
>> gets me back to GRUB so I'm not following what different behavior
>> you're proposing.
>
> My idea was to not have a short timeout when a user selects "Reboot to
> Bootloader" (to be implemented) as restart option, so that user do not
> have to fiddle with pressing the right key at the right time when they
> already know I want to get to the grub menu. Also when they missed the
> right time during boot, plymouth could recognise this, make sure the
> grub menu will be shown without a short timeout in the next boot and
> reboot.

Agreed but there are more options possible to help the user avoid the
mess that is keyboard shortcuts for firmware and bootloader:


Reboot to bootloader
Reboot to firmware setup
Reboot to macOS/Windows (upon detection one of those exists)




-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Vít Ondruch]

Dne 1.6.2018 v 16:29 Ken Coar napsal(a):
> On 06/01/2018 05:06 AM, Vít Ondruch wrote:
>> It is irony, that people, who are capable to get into the grub menu if
>> they need, complain about it being hidden. So to say, I am 100% for
>> hiding the grub menu, speeding up the boot process, and if need it, I'll
>> find a way to get it.
> I fail to see any irony here.  When I need to get into the
> grub menu, it's usually an emergency (or at least highly-stressful)
> situation, with no documentation handy, and flailing about
> trying to figure out how to make it appear just adds to the
> stress and the blue tinge of the air in my vicinity.
>
> What *exactly* is this trying to solve?
>
> IIRC, the patch is to hide the grub menu IFF there's only one
> kernel because 'it serves no useful function.'  A number of
> people (myself included) have disputed that assertion.  If
> the assertion is invalid, the patch shouldn't be applied.
> Correct?  That seems simple enough.  Or maybe I don't understand
> the process, lacking sufficient Fedora-devel-fu karma.
>
> How many non-tech end users install Fedora straight
> from the distro, as opposed to those who install a frobbed
> version, with different defaults, from a repackager?
> _I.e._, repackagers can set grub up however they like.
>
> Is Fedora's goal to be end-user friendly, tech friendly, or
> the all-singing all-dancing Linux distro?

Talking from my experience running Rawhide on two my laptops for ~5
years, I really don't remember where I would really need to use older
kernel. If I had to, it was probably due to something like audio issues
with my docking station and that is hardly the situation you describe.

In my family, there are another 2 computers running Fedora. I don't
remember any kernel related issues. And if there were kernel issues,
explaining my sister that she should use older kernel would be similarly
difficult if the menu is displayed or not.

But the true is, that the computers are not using any proprietary
drivers, which might be issue.


V.
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Till Maas]

Hi,

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 03:44:12PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Till Maas  wrote:
> > On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 02:30:20PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> >> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 10:00 AM, Jason L Tibbitts III
> >
> >> > If we're going to patch grub to expand the set of keys it will watch
> >> > for, is it possible to just expand the set to encompass all keys?  We
> >> > don't really need to make it that hard to find the grub menu, do we?
> >>
> >> I think it needs to be made specific, unambiguous, and deliberate. Yes
> >> this means it is also obscure if you don't know the decoder ring, but
> >> worse is when the decoder ring is either random or changing all the
> >> time. But for that we get to thank companies that somehow find
> >
> > Accepting all keys is not random and is also not something that needs to
> > be changed all the time. Can you maybe show some scenarios where it is
> > actually a problem?

> Example 2: Instructions say "press any key" and for whatever reason
> the GRUB USB keyboard module doesn't actually recognize all keys on an
> extended key keyboard. This wouldn't surprise me one bit because
> Fedora, out of the box, doesn't recognize the keypad on my extended
> key keyboard which also doesn't have a numlock button. And is a
> numlock button something GRUB will recognize as "any key"? What about
> Fn? Caps lock?
> 
> If you say any key it must be literally any key on any keyboard and it
> should always work and bring up the intended menu or it's a lie. And
> it's not OK to lie to users, except under really arduous
> circumstances.

My proposal was for the instructions to recommend pressing a certain key
but still accepting any key in grub, then there is no lie, since "Press
space to enter grub" is still true when other keys allow the same.

> >Also it would be awesome if it was still possible to easily
> > reboot to grub after the kernel took over, e.g. from the harddisk
> > password screen, GDM login screen and Gnome logout dialog. Then you can
> > just make it user-friendly and obvious.
> 
> password screen is a plymouth feature request; from what I'm looking
> at gdm login and gnome logout dialog both have a restart option which
> gets me back to GRUB so I'm not following what different behavior
> you're proposing.

My idea was to not have a short timeout when a user selects "Reboot to
Bootloader" (to be implemented) as restart option, so that user do not
have to fiddle with pressing the right key at the right time when they
already know I want to get to the grub menu. Also when they missed the
right time during boot, plymouth could recognise this, make sure the
grub menu will be shown without a short timeout in the next boot and
reboot.

Kind regards
Till
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Peter Jones]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:14:57PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Jason L Tibbitts III  said:
> > If we're going to patch grub to expand the set of keys it will watch
> > for, is it possible to just expand the set to encompass all keys?  We
> > don't really need to make it that hard to find the grub menu, do we?
> 
> To add: printing a message to the screen for only a few seconds can be
> almost useless, as many times monitors take those same seconds to sync
> to the output of the GRUB screen (it seems to always be in a different
> mode from the BIOS/UEFI boot screen).

One of the outcomes of the work Hans has done and coordinated so far is
that on most UEFI machines, we should be able to switch from the
graphics the firmware has presented to our own content without a
re-sync.

> So IMHO, taking any key would be good because not only do I not have
> to remember a specific one or few keys, I don't have to read a message
> that is only actually visible for 0.2 seconds.

Currently the code accepts any key the firmware supports to stop the
countdown.  That pretty much means:

- On most EFI machines we don't detect modifiers that aren't modifying
  anything: ctrl-a works but ctrl doesn't.  Strictly speaking some
  machines could support this, but we don't have code right now to do
  it[0].
- Intel-based Mac machines are like the above, but also Ctrl doesn't
  work at all and will mask us from seeing the other key being pressed.
  This is because they don't implement the protocol to get key state at
  all.
- If you're on a serial console, F keys don't work (but also they're bad
  choices to use anyway, because firmware likes to use them a lot.)
- In general everything else should work.

[0] Maybe something like this; the machine in front of me right now
doesn't support it.  Someone let me know if it works:
https://pjones.fedorapeople.org/0001-EFI-console-getkey-Fix-shift-ctrl-alt-when-pressed-a.patch

-- 
  Peter
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Chris Murphy]

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 8:13 AM, Ken Coar  wrote:
> On 05/31/2018 06:06 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:
>> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Jason L Tibbitts III  
>> wrote:
 "CM" == Chris Murphy  writes:
>>>
>>> Plus, there's an upside: if you're hammering F11 or F8 or F12 or Esc or
>>> whatever to try and get into the BIOS, and you miss it, then at least
>>> you stop in grub instead of going straight into the OS.
>>
>> Ick.
>
> Why 'ick'?

Because it's clumsy. You aren't getting exactly what you want or
expect. And you have just as much of a chance of wanting GRUB but
getting the firmware.

Anyway, at the moment I still see this feature as rearranging the deck
chairs. It exchanges problems we know, for problems we don't know.
It's one kind of clunkiness for a new kind of clunkiness with added
complexity.

>  If you're playing Rachmaninoff on the keyboard
> during the boot sequence, I think it's a pretty clear indicator
> that you want to interrupt it somehow.  (Unless you're a cat.)
> So I'd count any sort of interruption as a win, rather than
> proceeding to a full boot.

You're only indicating what you don't want to happen. You're not
indicating what you do want to happen: firmware setup? firmware boot
manager? firmware update? GRUB menu?

The idea the user getting a musical chairs result is better than
booting is not something I'm going to agree with.


-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Ken Coar]

On 06/01/2018 05:06 AM, Vít Ondruch wrote:
> 
> It is irony, that people, who are capable to get into the grub menu if
> they need, complain about it being hidden. So to say, I am 100% for
> hiding the grub menu, speeding up the boot process, and if need it, I'll
> find a way to get it.

I fail to see any irony here.  When I need to get into the
grub menu, it's usually an emergency (or at least highly-stressful)
situation, with no documentation handy, and flailing about
trying to figure out how to make it appear just adds to the
stress and the blue tinge of the air in my vicinity.

What *exactly* is this trying to solve?

IIRC, the patch is to hide the grub menu IFF there's only one
kernel because 'it serves no useful function.'  A number of
people (myself included) have disputed that assertion.  If
the assertion is invalid, the patch shouldn't be applied.
Correct?  That seems simple enough.  Or maybe I don't understand
the process, lacking sufficient Fedora-devel-fu karma.

How many non-tech end users install Fedora straight
from the distro, as opposed to those who install a frobbed
version, with different defaults, from a repackager?
_I.e._, repackagers can set grub up however they like.

Is Fedora's goal to be end-user friendly, tech friendly, or
the all-singing all-dancing Linux distro?
-- 
#kenB-|}

Ken, Baron Coar
RHCA, RHCVA, Sanagendamgagwedweinini
Red Hat IT Infrastructure
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Ken Coar]

On 05/31/2018 07:29 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> Well, to unpack a bit: "let's just slap a choice in the installer!" is
> almost never the right answer.

I consider myself n00b-slapped.  My only defence is my ignorance
of discussions in this area.  Point taken. :-)
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Ken Coar]

On 05/31/2018 06:06 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Jason L Tibbitts III  
> wrote:
>>> "CM" == Chris Murphy  writes:
>>
>> Plus, there's an upside: if you're hammering F11 or F8 or F12 or Esc or
>> whatever to try and get into the BIOS, and you miss it, then at least
>> you stop in grub instead of going straight into the OS.
> 
> Ick.

Why 'ick'?  If you're playing Rachmaninoff on the keyboard
during the boot sequence, I think it's a pretty clear indicator
that you want to interrupt it somehow.  (Unless you're a cat.)
So I'd count any sort of interruption as a win, rather than
proceeding to a full boot.

>> Anyway, I don't really care what gets chosen here, but I sure would like
>> the option to actually configure what keys grub watches instead of just
>> having it be 'Esc' and maybe patched to include 'F8'.  Grub seems to be
>> so flexible so it seems odd that this bit is hardcoded.
> 
> That's a good point.

+1
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Vít Ondruch]

Dne 31.5.2018 v 21:36 Jason L Tibbitts III napsal(a):
>> "JF" == John Florian  writes:
> JF> Does Fedora really have that large of non-technical audience?
>
> It's an interesting question, but it seems to me that the answer doesn't
> really matter.  If they're non-technical, the assumption is that they
> don't want to see the stuff and indeed, what we should be going for is a
> completely smooth transition between the BIOS logo and the login screen,
> with no flashing back to text mode.  I am pretty sure that's the end
> goal here and hiding the grub menu by default is just a step in that
> direction.
>
> If a user is technical, and our documentation is reasonably good, then
> they should be able to achieve the level of verbosity they want.
>
> So in the end, it doesn't seem to matter much how technical the audience
> is.  What appear to matter most is how much fuss people will make about
> having to adapt to (and, if they want, revert) a changed default.

It is irony, that people, who are capable to get into the grub menu if
they need, complain about it being hidden. So to say, I am 100% for
hiding the grub menu, speeding up the boot process, and if need it, I'll
find a way to get it.

Vít


>
> Personally, I don't much care either way because I already have to
> configure systems to get rid of the annoying and useless (in my
> environment) grub menu.  So for me it would just be one task I can
> remove from my ansible playbooks.  But if we always have that menu
> appearing then there won't be much impetus to get that nice, smooth boot
> experience because nobody who takes the defaults will see it.  And yes,
> such things do matter to some people.
>
>  - J<
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Nico Kadel-Garcia]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:53 AM Sam Varshavchik  wrote:
>
> Jan Kurik writes:
>
> > = Proposed System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu =
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/HiddenGrubMenu
> >
> >
> > Owner(s):
> >   * Hans de Goede 
> >
> >
> > On systems with only a single OS installed, the grub menu does not
> > offer any useful functionality, so we should hide it by default.
>
> Ummm, yes it does. It lets you boot into single user mode, or select the
> previous kernel to boot. That might be a critical function, in an emergency.
>
> Here's a radical idea: just prompt this as an installation option.

It's also useful to see a report of what the default kernel is.
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, May 31, 2018, 20:19 Ben Rosser  wrote:

> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:31 PM, Adam Williamson
>  wrote:
> > On Thu, 2018-05-31 at 15:58 -0400, Ken Coar wrote:
> >> At 2018-05-31T02:36, Jason L Tibbitts III irritated the
> >> Akashic Field to say:
> >> >
> >> > If a user is technical, and our documentation is reasonably good,
> >> > then they should be able to achieve the level of verbosity they want.
> >>
> >> When you need to get into single-user mode, the documentation
> >> is probably not to hand. :-)
> >>
> >> How about making this a yes/no installation option?
> >
> > http://islinuxaboutchoice.com/
>
> But my somewhat
> cynical observation is that people usually pull out the "Linux isn't
> about choice" card when they are trying to justify some choice they
> have made and want others to adopt.
>

Amen.  It's one of the guiding principles of gnome-ification.  But it isn't
the topic at hand.  As you mention and as I stated much earlier in the
thread if you want to change the default behavior... fine - - - but update
the documentation so people know how to change it back or invoke it as
needed.

>
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Ben Rosser]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 7:29 PM, Adam Williamson
 wrote:
> On Thu, 2018-05-31 at 19:19 -0400, Ben Rosser wrote:
>> So, back to the topic of this thread: while I don't think this choice
>> belongs in the installer, I do think there should be detailed
>> instructions somewhere for end users on how to enable or disable the
>> grub boot menu, so they can _choose_ the behavior that they want. A
>> quick Google search for "fedora hide grub menu" turned up a blog post
>> or two, an ask.fp.o post, a couple forum threads, and a Stack Exchange
>> post as the first few results, which makes me believe it's not
>> currently well explained anywhere in our documentation?
>
> There's nothing Fedora-specific about it. It's just a grub config
> option.

Well, yes, that's true. But, from the justification presented earlier
in this thread, it seems like this change proposal is geared around
less technical users who may not know this?

My assumption right now is that there are people unhappy with seeing
the boot menu and want to not see the boot menu, hence this change
proposal. (If that's not true then I'm not sure why we should change
the behavior to begin with). If we don't change the default, we should
at least make sure they know how to get the behavior we want. And it
presumably goes without saying that if we do change the default, we
should document what was changed and how to get back the old behavior.

I think that philosophy applies even though this is nothing specific to Fedora.

Ben Rosser
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2018-05-31 at 19:19 -0400, Ben Rosser wrote:
> So, back to the topic of this thread: while I don't think this choice
> belongs in the installer, I do think there should be detailed
> instructions somewhere for end users on how to enable or disable the
> grub boot menu, so they can _choose_ the behavior that they want. A
> quick Google search for "fedora hide grub menu" turned up a blog post
> or two, an ask.fp.o post, a couple forum threads, and a Stack Exchange
> post as the first few results, which makes me believe it's not
> currently well explained anywhere in our documentation?

There's nothing Fedora-specific about it. It's just a grub config
option.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
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http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2018-05-31 at 20:18 -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2018, 19:32 Adam Williamson 
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > How about making this a yes/no installation option?
> > 
> > http://islinuxaboutchoice.com/
> 
> 
> Well... That's a bit of a non-sequitur...

Well, to unpack a bit: "let's just slap a choice in the installer!" is
almost never the right answer.
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, May 31, 2018, 19:32 Adam Williamson 
wrote:

>
> > How about making this a yes/no installation option?
>
> http://islinuxaboutchoice.com/


Well... That's a bit of a non-sequitur...

>
>
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Ben Rosser]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:31 PM, Adam Williamson
 wrote:
> On Thu, 2018-05-31 at 15:58 -0400, Ken Coar wrote:
>> At 2018-05-31T02:36, Jason L Tibbitts III irritated the
>> Akashic Field to say:
>> >
>> > If a user is technical, and our documentation is reasonably good,
>> > then they should be able to achieve the level of verbosity they want.
>>
>> When you need to get into single-user mode, the documentation
>> is probably not to hand. :-)
>>
>> How about making this a yes/no installation option?
>
> http://islinuxaboutchoice.com/

I know that this page was created by Fedora developers, so this is
probably going to be an unpopular opinion here, but...

I've always found this argument incredibly suspect (and, frankly, the
page overly condescending). At its core, for users (especially desktop
users), using Linux at all very frequently _is_ a choice. The choice
to use open source software at all is, well, a choice. They are
choosing to install an operating system that is open source on
hardware that probably didn't come with it.

Now I do agree that this does not mean the development of a Linux
distribution necessarily has to be "about choice". But my somewhat
cynical observation is that people usually pull out the "Linux isn't
about choice" card when they are trying to justify some choice they
have made and want others to adopt.

So, back to the topic of this thread: while I don't think this choice
belongs in the installer, I do think there should be detailed
instructions somewhere for end users on how to enable or disable the
grub boot menu, so they can _choose_ the behavior that they want. A
quick Google search for "fedora hide grub menu" turned up a blog post
or two, an ask.fp.o post, a couple forum threads, and a Stack Exchange
post as the first few results, which makes me believe it's not
currently well explained anywhere in our documentation? Perhaps that
should be fixed, regardless whatever the outcome of this change
discussion is.

Ben Rosser
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2018-05-31 at 15:58 -0400, Ken Coar wrote:
> At 2018-05-31T02:36, Jason L Tibbitts III irritated the
> Akashic Field to say:
> > 
> > If a user is technical, and our documentation is reasonably good,
> > then they should be able to achieve the level of verbosity they want.
> 
> When you need to get into single-user mode, the documentation
> is probably not to hand. :-)
> 
> How about making this a yes/no installation option?

http://islinuxaboutchoice.com/
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Jason L Tibbitts III  wrote:
>> "CM" == Chris Murphy  writes:
>
> CM> I think it's to avoid ambiguity. F8 on one of my computers tells the
> CM> firmware to do a firmware update or some such thing, so I'm going to
> CM> press F8 and maybe get a firmware update menu, or maybe I'll get a
> CM> GRUB menu, depending on my timing. And I think such ambiguity will
> CM> inevitably lead to bad UI/UX.
>
> Unfortunately anything you pick will be ambiguous.

Subjective yes. But not ambiguous.

the "g" key would not be ambiguous. It would be subjective. And I
doubt it conflicts with anything else. But it is a bit obscure decoder
ring. I'm willing to bet the user tries shift, Esc and space bar since
in various eras of GRUB all of those have been trigger keys to reveal
a hidden menu.


>The change under
> discussion mentions adding F8 to the set of keys checked, so that would
> already conflict for you (and already conflicts with Windows, which
> suggests to me that this isn't really much of a conflict).  I have a
> number of machines which use 'Esc' as the key to enter the BIOS, so that
> conflicts with grub now but somehow it has never even occurred to me
> that any conflict exists.
>
> Plus, there's an upside: if you're hammering F11 or F8 or F12 or Esc or
> whatever to try and get into the BIOS, and you miss it, then at least
> you stop in grub instead of going straight into the OS.

Ick.


>
> CM> This is one of those areas were Apple's UX is vastly superior, the
> CM> keyboard shortcuts for firmware and bootloader have been
> CM> standardized for a very long time - at least 20 years, across
> CM> multiple archs and hardware generations and development teams.
>
> If you're going to select just a particular hardware/software
> combination like that, then you could say the same for a number of
> individual laptop or motherboard manufacturers when combined with
> Windows.  Taken as a whole there is no standardization across the
> industry.

It is an imperfect analogy with bias. Nevertheless, even within Dell,
HP or Intel, you get a new product manager, a new firmware OEM, you
eventually get different shortcuts. There's hardly any company in the
tech industry with as much institutional momentum like Apple when it
comes to the user experience - which is one of the reasons why users
of Apple products flip their shit beyond imagination when things
change. And good for them for doing so. These shortcuts as a UI
element have effectively become user domain, even though they are
hidden. They aren't documented within the OS help system, let alone
during boot.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201255


> Anyway, I don't really care what gets chosen here, but I sure would like
> the option to actually configure what keys grub watches instead of just
> having it be 'Esc' and maybe patched to include 'F8'.  Grub seems to be
> so flexible so it seems odd that this bit is hardcoded.

That's a good point.


-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Andrew Lutomirski  wrote:

>
> More concretely, perhaps plymouth could display such a message on its
> splash screen for as long as its running.  But the message should
> probably be more accurate, along the lines of "Reboot and hold the
> Shift key for more boot options".

I like this general direction. The parts I'm skeptical about is boot
times for some computers are really super short. And some hardware
there is a delay in plymouth even coming up due to kernel messages,
which reduces the time this message would be visible. So it'll take
some spitballing and testing. But I think it's better to give
instructions in plymouth than pretend there's any time to do it in
GRUB.

And also, I think the idea of faster boot times stated for Fedora 29
and Fedora 30 with firmware fast boot support means no USB control
anyway. Yes GRUB itself can initialize USB with its own driver even if
the firmware disables USB. But that'd defeat the point of faster
booting. So on first boot there I'm expecting there isn't any working
USB anyway  - and if that's correct the proper place for messaging is
plymouth.

Another part I'm skeptical of, is the localization of this message in
plymouth based on user's language selection: at installation time? And
how it will be modified? And what languages will be supported? And all
the commensurate testing that indicates. Etc.

-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 3:15 PM, Till Maas  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 02:30:20PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
>
>> I think it needs to be made specific, unambiguous, and deliberate. Yes
>> this means it is also obscure if you don't know the decoder ring, but
>> worse is when the decoder ring is either random or changing all the
>> time. But for that we get to thank companies that somehow find
>
> Another thing came to my mind: Usually when someone needs to get into
> the menu, it is because something is not working and needs to be fixed.
> This can be a stressful situation, therefore adding extra stress by
> making it hard to fix it instead of making it easy to get help is not
> nice.

And I agree. This feature proposal is full of traps. :-) And that
alone is a reason for high levels of scrutiny and caution. The status
quo might be kinda klunky and ugly and geeky and obscure, but it
pretty much harms no one, and even if confusion is harmful, it's 6
seconds of it.

So as much as I like pretty macOS functionality, I'm not in favor of
half ass pretty that makes life difficult for even more people. If we
want to do it correctly it's a lot more work than is in this proposal.

Right now this proposal is a solution in search of a problem.

-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Till Maas  wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 02:30:20PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
>> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 10:00 AM, Jason L Tibbitts III
>
>> > If we're going to patch grub to expand the set of keys it will watch
>> > for, is it possible to just expand the set to encompass all keys?  We
>> > don't really need to make it that hard to find the grub menu, do we?
>>
>> I think it needs to be made specific, unambiguous, and deliberate. Yes
>> this means it is also obscure if you don't know the decoder ring, but
>> worse is when the decoder ring is either random or changing all the
>> time. But for that we get to thank companies that somehow find
>
> Accepting all keys is not random and is also not something that needs to
> be changed all the time. Can you maybe show some scenarios where it is
> actually a problem?

Example 1: From the feature proposal why using F8 "1.2 On some
machines ESC brings up the firmware-setup menu" OK well on one of my
machines F8 brings up some firmware related menu. So that should mean
F8 is squarely out. The point of this change from Esc is to avoid
conflict. Well we have a new conflict with F8. So if the original
logic holds for Esc, then it must hold for F8. If it holds for
neither, provide an argument why it doesn't hold.

Example 2: Instructions say "press any key" and for whatever reason
the GRUB USB keyboard module doesn't actually recognize all keys on an
extended key keyboard. This wouldn't surprise me one bit because
Fedora, out of the box, doesn't recognize the keypad on my extended
key keyboard which also doesn't have a numlock button. And is a
numlock button something GRUB will recognize as "any key"? What about
Fn? Caps lock?

If you say any key it must be literally any key on any keyboard and it
should always work and bring up the intended menu or it's a lie. And
it's not OK to lie to users, except under really arduous
circumstances.

>The instructions for end-users should still be
> clear, nevertheless, e.g. just tell them whatever button to press is the
> best one, but also help the helpless who do not know which button to
> press.

This is not even under discussion in the proposed feature. It's a 1
second timout, it's entirely pointless to have any message. In other
words, you too are advocating substantial modification of the feature
proposal.

Also the feature depends on ‘GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT_QUIET’ which the GRUB
manual describes as:

‘GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT_QUIET’
In conjunction with ‘GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT’, set this to ‘true’ to
suppress the verbose countdown while waiting for a key to be pressed
before displaying the menu.
This option is unset by default, and is deprecated in favour of the
less confusing ‘GRUB_TIMEOUT_STYLE=countdown’.


So it's deprecated and I think it's specious to use deprecated GRUB
features from the outset.


>Also it would be awesome if it was still possible to easily
> reboot to grub after the kernel took over, e.g. from the harddisk
> password screen, GDM login screen and Gnome logout dialog. Then you can
> just make it user-friendly and obvious.

password screen is a plymouth feature request; from what I'm looking
at gdm login and gnome logout dialog both have a restart option which
gets me back to GRUB so I'm not following what different behavior
you're proposing.


-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Till Maas]

Hi,

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 02:30:20PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:

> I think it needs to be made specific, unambiguous, and deliberate. Yes
> this means it is also obscure if you don't know the decoder ring, but
> worse is when the decoder ring is either random or changing all the
> time. But for that we get to thank companies that somehow find

Another thing came to my mind: Usually when someone needs to get into
the menu, it is because something is not working and needs to be fixed.
This can be a stressful situation, therefore adding extra stress by
making it hard to fix it instead of making it easy to get help is not
nice.

Kind regards
Till
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Till Maas]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 02:30:20PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 10:00 AM, Jason L Tibbitts III

> > If we're going to patch grub to expand the set of keys it will watch
> > for, is it possible to just expand the set to encompass all keys?  We
> > don't really need to make it that hard to find the grub menu, do we?
> 
> I think it needs to be made specific, unambiguous, and deliberate. Yes
> this means it is also obscure if you don't know the decoder ring, but
> worse is when the decoder ring is either random or changing all the
> time. But for that we get to thank companies that somehow find

Accepting all keys is not random and is also not something that needs to
be changed all the time. Can you maybe show some scenarios where it is
actually a problem? The instructions for end-users should still be
clear, nevertheless, e.g. just tell them whatever button to press is the
best one, but also help the helpless who do not know which button to
press. Also it would be awesome if it was still possible to easily
reboot to grub after the kernel took over, e.g. from the harddisk
password screen, GDM login screen and Gnome logout dialog. Then you can
just make it user-friendly and obvious.

Kind regards
Till
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Ken Coar  wrote:
> At 2018-05-31T02:36, Jason L Tibbitts III irritated the
> Akashic Field to say:
>>
>> If a user is technical, and our documentation is reasonably good,
>> then they should be able to achieve the level of verbosity they want.
>
> When you need to get into single-user mode, the documentation
> is probably not to hand. :-)
>
> How about making this a yes/no installation option?  With
> a default of not changing the current behaviour?
>
> "Do you want to always see the Grub menu, even when you
> only have a single kernel installed on your bloody machine?
> Choosing 'Y' will retain the behaviour exhibited by prior
> versions of Fedora. [Yn]" :-)

No, we need to some to some kind of consensus. Making the already
overly complicated installer more complicated is not a good plan for
either users or testers. And contra snark for your snark: that's
pretty adversarial and thus shitty UI/UX wording,  that will at best
give translation and documentation folks a headache, and
simultaneously gives a majority of Fedora users no f'n clue what
behavior is even under discussion. What's GRUB? What's a single
kernel? My prior Fedora had behavior Q because 4 years ago I modified
it, forgot about that modification, and have never done a clean
install since then, so my idea of "default" differs from the distro
installation default.

So yeah - no, no, and no.

I wonder what percentage of users this change applies to. Most users I
think are multibooting Workstation. And Atomic, Cloud, and Server
products will all continue to need GRUB menu visibility by default.

I see the change as probably benefiting a few and harming a few, and
at least on the surface it appears to be a tie. And therefore I'd say
it's not compelling enough of a change.

-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Jason L Tibbitts III]

> "CM" == Chris Murphy  writes:

CM> I think it's to avoid ambiguity. F8 on one of my computers tells the
CM> firmware to do a firmware update or some such thing, so I'm going to
CM> press F8 and maybe get a firmware update menu, or maybe I'll get a
CM> GRUB menu, depending on my timing. And I think such ambiguity will
CM> inevitably lead to bad UI/UX.

Unfortunately anything you pick will be ambiguous.  The change under
discussion mentions adding F8 to the set of keys checked, so that would
already conflict for you (and already conflicts with Windows, which
suggests to me that this isn't really much of a conflict).  I have a
number of machines which use 'Esc' as the key to enter the BIOS, so that
conflicts with grub now but somehow it has never even occurred to me
that any conflict exists.

Plus, there's an upside: if you're hammering F11 or F8 or F12 or Esc or
whatever to try and get into the BIOS, and you miss it, then at least
you stop in grub instead of going straight into the OS.

CM> This is one of those areas were Apple's UX is vastly superior, the
CM> keyboard shortcuts for firmware and bootloader have been
CM> standardized for a very long time - at least 20 years, across
CM> multiple archs and hardware generations and development teams.

If you're going to select just a particular hardware/software
combination like that, then you could say the same for a number of
individual laptop or motherboard manufacturers when combined with
Windows.  Taken as a whole there is no standardization across the
industry.

CM> I think it needs to be made specific, unambiguous, and deliberate.

And... there's nothing that satisfies those to my knowledge.  The only
thing I see as remotely unambiguous is "press any key to enter the grub
menu".

Anyway, I don't really care what gets chosen here, but I sure would like
the option to actually configure what keys grub watches instead of just
having it be 'Esc' and maybe patched to include 'F8'.  Grub seems to be
so flexible so it seems odd that this bit is hardcoded.

 - J<
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Andrew Lutomirski]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 1:26 PM, R P Herrold  wrote:
>
> I think it was a fair question which was raised about the size
> of the audience being sought to be catered to, vs the mass of
> users of Fedoraproject code, and their 'least astonishment'
> and loss of acquired knowledge as to use
>
> If there are, oh, say, twelve people in the world that
> actually care about instantaneous GUI boots in Fedora, it is a
> waste of time to mess with this thread
>
>
> but to the most recent point raised about 'modifier keys'.  I
> recall doing this back in DOS days with a third-party tool
> that permitted 'BAT files' to query for Shift, Alt, and Ctrl
> key states, and to build boolean decision trees:
>
> On Thu, 31 May 2018, Andrew Lutomirski wrote:
>
>> If the protocol were that the boot menu would be shown if
>> any key at all were held down, then we wouldn't need a 1
>> second delay.
>
> or, perhaps, better still and less complex as in needing to
> suppress a boot menu, a message at the bottom of the GUI
> screen from its first appearance and for ten seconds or so:
> Hold either Shift key for more boot options

More concretely, perhaps plymouth could display such a message on its
splash screen for as long as its running.  But the message should
probably be more accurate, along the lines of "Reboot and hold the
Shift key for more boot options".
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[stan]

On Thu, 31 May 2018 14:36:39 -0500
Jason L Tibbitts III  wrote:

> that they don't want to see the stuff and indeed, what we should be
> going for is a completely smooth transition between the BIOS logo and
> the login screen, with no flashing back to text mode.  I am pretty
> sure that's the end goal here and hiding the grub menu by default is
> just a step in that direction.

I've been thinking about this, and see an opportunity for
monetization.  Instead of the user staring at the splash screen until
the login comes up, we could sell advertising.  Static jpgs.  Facebook
or Google would probably be willing to throw a few hundred thousand if
we did that to have their ad flash instead of the splash screen.  Or
even Microsoft and Mac might want to advertise their OSs to a possibly
receptive audience.  If that doesn't fly, maybe RedHat would be willing
to advertise their server OS, or Fedora could put helpful hints up,
like pointing to the user list, or how to contribute, or where to find
documentation.  Maybe all of the above, randomly selected each boot.

Paid advertisements could contribute to Fedora development.  Pizza at
the development conferences, or more hardware for build and test.  I
have to confess I'm more comfortable suggesting this because I'd never
see such ads.  :-)

Tongue-in-cheek, sort of.  Hey, why not, everyone else monetizes
everything.
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 10:00 AM, Jason L Tibbitts III
 wrote:
>> "JK" == Jan Kurik  writes:
>
> JK> 1. Add patches to grub to also make pressing F8 show the menu
>
> One thing I've never really understood is the reason for using such a
> small set of keys to interrupt the boot process.  I seem to recall that
> in older versions (perhaps pre-grub2) the space bar or the cursor keys
> worked.  I also recall at some point that you could just hold down the
> shift key.  More recently I actually thought something was broken
> because I simply couldn't find the magic key (only later finding out
> that it had at some point been limited to just 'Esc').

I think it's to avoid ambiguity. F8 on one of my computers tells the
firmware to do a firmware update or some such thing, so I'm going to
press F8 and maybe get a firmware update menu, or maybe I'll get a
GRUB menu, depending on my timing. And I think such ambiguity will
inevitably lead to bad UI/UX.

I have wondered why UEFI never got around to standardizing firmware
keyboard shortcuts, or whether the OEM firmware vendors actively
lobbied to not standardize.

This is one of those areas were Apple's UX is vastly superior, the
keyboard shortcuts for firmware and bootloader have been standardized
for a very long time - at least 20 years, across multiple archs and
hardware generations and development teams.


> If we're going to patch grub to expand the set of keys it will watch
> for, is it possible to just expand the set to encompass all keys?  We
> don't really need to make it that hard to find the grub menu, do we?

I think it needs to be made specific, unambiguous, and deliberate. Yes
this means it is also obscure if you don't know the decoder ring, but
worse is when the decoder ring is either random or changing all the
time. But for that we get to thank companies that somehow find
standardization in this area to be unimportant or offensive - I'm not
really sure where they're at with it but they can literally do
anything they want and yet they aren't doing this.


-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[R P Herrold]

I think it was a fair question which was raised about the size 
of the audience being sought to be catered to, vs the mass of 
users of Fedoraproject code, and their 'least astonishment' 
and loss of acquired knowledge as to use

If there are, oh, say, twelve people in the world that 
actually care about instantaneous GUI boots in Fedora, it is a 
waste of time to mess with this thread


but to the most recent point raised about 'modifier keys'.  I 
recall doing this back in DOS days with a third-party tool 
that permitted 'BAT files' to query for Shift, Alt, and Ctrl 
key states, and to build boolean decision trees:

On Thu, 31 May 2018, Andrew Lutomirski wrote:

> If the protocol were that the boot menu would be shown if 
> any key at all were held down, then we wouldn't need a 1 
> second delay.

or, perhaps, better still and less complex as in needing to 
suppress a boot menu, a message at the bottom of the GUI 
screen from its first appearance and for ten seconds or so:
Hold either Shift key for more boot options

so that a person could be habituated to holding a 'harmless' 
key. Harmless, in the sense that it does not fill and over-run 
a key-press buffer and start beeping at the holder

I speak having personal setup options of:

15 sec timeout at the grub options menu 

with plymouth graphical stuff, rhgb, and quiet 
disabled

always booting to a non-GUI console
why: multi-user.target for something formerly
though of as 'single user', although with 
multiple PTYs ?? 

with a 640x480 console

which is NOT cleared away

to support the fact that I am almost always remote and on KVM 
devices of varying resolutions, and so favoring a 'least 
common denominator' as to capabilities

That last (preserving the TUI boot screen was tricky to find 
docoed

Use:
 # systemctl edit getty@tty1

and add:

#
[Service]
TTYVTDisallocate=no
#

as the description for the service

-- Russ herrold
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[John Florian]

On 05/31/2018 03:36 PM, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote:

what we should be going for is a
completely smooth transition between the BIOS logo and the login screen,
with no flashing back to text mode.
Should we? Yes, I get that looks nice, but it can be at the cost of 
functionality.  In the end, I sit in front of computer to do work, not 
be entertained by pretty things, especially the lowly boot process.  
That's like bragging about how cool the spark plugs look in your new car.

   I am pretty sure that's the end
goal here and hiding the grub menu by default is just a step in that
direction.
I'm sure it is.  That's the unfortunate, inexorable trend.  And I'd be 
totally okay with this ... if only I never had the problems that make 
these changes more painful.  Unfortunately, those problems are just as 
frequent as ever (and likely always will be when running against such 
diverse hardware) but the barrier to resolve them keeps getting more 
challenging.  That's a terrible trade-off IMHO for what amounts to 
nothing than aesthetics.  Apple can get away with this because the own 
platform top to bottom.  We don't have that luxury.

if they want, revert) a changed default
Again, this only applies to a system that once worked where you can make 
that change.  When fighting a borked system where the install fails this 
isn't an option.

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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Jason L Tibbitts III]

> "AL" == Andrew Lutomirski  writes:

AL> If the protocol were that the boot menu would be shown if any key at
AL> all were held down, then we wouldn't need a 1 second delay.

For some reason I also recall just holding shift down to get into grub,
and doing searches on that seems to imply that it's supposed to work
with the default grub setups in some distros.  I see that grub does have
a keystatus command (which can check for shift, ctrl or alt) but it
doesn't appear that our configuration uses it at all.

 - J<
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Andrew Lutomirski]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 9:00 AM, Jason L Tibbitts III  wrote:
>> "JK" == Jan Kurik  writes:
>
> JK> 1. Add patches to grub to also make pressing F8 show the menu
>
> One thing I've never really understood is the reason for using such a
> small set of keys to interrupt the boot process.  I seem to recall that
> in older versions (perhaps pre-grub2) the space bar or the cursor keys
> worked.  I also recall at some point that you could just hold down the
> shift key.  More recently I actually thought something was broken
> because I simply couldn't find the magic key (only later finding out
> that it had at some point been limited to just 'Esc').
>
> If we're going to patch grub to expand the set of keys it will watch
> for, is it possible to just expand the set to encompass all keys?  We
> don't really need to make it that hard to find the grub menu, do we?

Yes, please, and for more than just ease of use.  Adding an
intentional 1-second delay to the boot process to give the user the
opportunity to press escape is disappointing.  If the protocol were
that the boot menu would be shown if any key at all were held down,
then we wouldn't need a 1 second delay.

--Andy
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Ken Coar]

At 2018-05-31T02:36, Jason L Tibbitts III irritated the
Akashic Field to say:
>
> If a user is technical, and our documentation is reasonably good,
> then they should be able to achieve the level of verbosity they want.

When you need to get into single-user mode, the documentation
is probably not to hand. :-)

How about making this a yes/no installation option?  With
a default of not changing the current behaviour?

"Do you want to always see the Grub menu, even when you
only have a single kernel installed on your bloody machine?
Choosing 'Y' will retain the behaviour exhibited by prior
versions of Fedora. [Yn]" :-)
-- 
#kenB-|}

Ken, Baron Coar
RHCA, RHCVA, Sanagendamgagwedweinini
Red Hat IT Infrastructure
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Jason L Tibbitts III]

> "JF" == John Florian  writes:

JF> Does Fedora really have that large of non-technical audience?

It's an interesting question, but it seems to me that the answer doesn't
really matter.  If they're non-technical, the assumption is that they
don't want to see the stuff and indeed, what we should be going for is a
completely smooth transition between the BIOS logo and the login screen,
with no flashing back to text mode.  I am pretty sure that's the end
goal here and hiding the grub menu by default is just a step in that
direction.

If a user is technical, and our documentation is reasonably good, then
they should be able to achieve the level of verbosity they want.

So in the end, it doesn't seem to matter much how technical the audience
is.  What appear to matter most is how much fuss people will make about
having to adapt to (and, if they want, revert) a changed default.

Personally, I don't much care either way because I already have to
configure systems to get rid of the annoying and useless (in my
environment) grub menu.  So for me it would just be one task I can
remove from my ansible playbooks.  But if we always have that menu
appearing then there won't be much impetus to get that nice, smooth boot
experience because nobody who takes the defaults will see it.  And yes,
such things do matter to some people.

 - J<
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[John Florian]

On 05/31/2018 06:43 AM, Jan Kurik wrote:

= Proposed System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu =
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/HiddenGrubMenu


Owner(s):
   * Hans de Goede 


On systems with only a single OS installed, the grub menu does not
offer any useful functionality, so we should hide it by default.


I really dislike these kind of changes.  Does Fedora really have that 
large of non-technical audience?  I'm perfectly capable of undoing this 
on a normal install that I use.  I still prefer the plymouth-details 
theme for example.  I also add more grub time to allow me time to react 
(and my slow USB keyboard to become ready) -- if I have to wait several 
minutes for a POST, shaving a second or two only to miss a prompt just 
plain sucks.  I really don't see the value in hiding so many things that 
might be useful when crap hits the fan.


I'm particularly grumpy right now after sitting under said fan as I 
spent over 2 weeks trying to get F28 installed on a new very nice Dell 
Precision 5820 workstation with dual 256GB NVMe drives that has defied 
all reasonable logic.  Same ISO (KDE live) put on CFast via USB installs 
fine, never succeeds in booting vs. ancient spinning photons works 
nearly every time.  Why 2 weeks?  Oh, just trying every reasonable (and 
eventually the unreasonable) choice in the BIOS and kernel cmd-line 
options.  Normally Fedora is quite smooth, but 28 plus this particular 
hardware proved a nightmare.  I continued torturing myself even after I 
had success in hopes of making a decent bug report, but, as mentioned, 
it defied all logic. And all that time, these kind of "hide the geeky 
stuff" did nothing but hinder my efforts.


If we really must go down this road further, it be nice to see it done 
in a more dynamic way.  E.g., booting the same kernel and initramfs as 
the last time and that worked so this time we can be "pretty" and 
"faster".  Something changed or this is a new install? Let's be a little 
more verbose and helpful until it's known good.

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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Jan Kurik]

Forwarding reply from Ken:

-- Forwarded message --
From: Ken Coar 
To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 12:20:32 -0400
Subject: Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu
On 05/31/2018 06:43 AM, Jan Kurik wrote:
> = Proposed System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu =
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/HiddenGrubMenu
>
> On systems with only a single OS installed, the grub menu does not
> offer any useful functionality, so we should hide it by default.

I'm not [yet] in any of the groups which would allow me to
comment on the wiki, so I'll do it here.

I fundamentally disagree with the 'no useful functionality'
reasoning.  It provides access to the kernel line, even if
there's only one kernel, and that is *definitely* useful
functionality.

I'm opposed to this change.  For one thing, it violates the
Principle of Least Astonishment.  For another, with SSD drives
becoming more and more common, and CPUs faster and faster, the
time window for successfully whanging away at the F8/ESC/F12/whatever
key in order to bring up the menu is getting harder to hit.
Glance away for an instant and you've missed it -- so either let
it come up so you can reboot, or (possibly more common) power it
down (because you can't get in) and try again.

FWIW.
--
#kenB-|}

Ken, Baron Coar
RHCA, RHCVA, Sanagendamgagwedweinini
Red Hat IT Infrastructure

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 7:14 PM, Chris Adams  wrote:
> Once upon a time, Jason L Tibbitts III  said:
>> If we're going to patch grub to expand the set of keys it will watch
>> for, is it possible to just expand the set to encompass all keys?  We
>> don't really need to make it that hard to find the grub menu, do we?
>
> To add: printing a message to the screen for only a few seconds can be
> almost useless, as many times monitors take those same seconds to sync
> to the output of the GRUB screen (it seems to always be in a different
> mode from the BIOS/UEFI boot screen).  So IMHO, taking any key would be
> good because not only do I not have to remember a specific one or few
> keys, I don't have to read a message that is only actually visible for
> 0.2 seconds.
>
> --
> Chris Adams 
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-- 
Jan Kuřík
JBoss EAP Program Manager
Red Hat Czech s.r.o., Purkynova 99/71, 612 45 Brno, Czech Republic
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Jason L Tibbitts III  said:
> If we're going to patch grub to expand the set of keys it will watch
> for, is it possible to just expand the set to encompass all keys?  We
> don't really need to make it that hard to find the grub menu, do we?

To add: printing a message to the screen for only a few seconds can be
almost useless, as many times monitors take those same seconds to sync
to the output of the GRUB screen (it seems to always be in a different
mode from the BIOS/UEFI boot screen).  So IMHO, taking any key would be
good because not only do I not have to remember a specific one or few
keys, I don't have to read a message that is only actually visible for
0.2 seconds.

-- 
Chris Adams 
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Jason L Tibbitts III]

> "JK" == Jan Kurik  writes:

JK> 1. Add patches to grub to also make pressing F8 show the menu

One thing I've never really understood is the reason for using such a
small set of keys to interrupt the boot process.  I seem to recall that
in older versions (perhaps pre-grub2) the space bar or the cursor keys
worked.  I also recall at some point that you could just hold down the
shift key.  More recently I actually thought something was broken
because I simply couldn't find the magic key (only later finding out
that it had at some point been limited to just 'Esc').

If we're going to patch grub to expand the set of keys it will watch
for, is it possible to just expand the set to encompass all keys?  We
don't really need to make it that hard to find the grub menu, do we?

 - J<
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Kamil Paral]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Sam Varshavchik 
wrote:

> Jan Kurik writes:
>
> = Proposed System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu =
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/HiddenGrubMenu
>>
>>
>> Owner(s):
>>   * Hans de Goede 
>>
>>
>> On systems with only a single OS installed, the grub menu does not
>> offer any useful functionality, so we should hide it by default.
>>
>
> Ummm, yes it does. It lets you boot into single user mode, or select the
> previous kernel to boot. That might be a critical function, in an emergency.
>

The next few lines of the proposal covers exactly the point you're making.
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Re: F29 System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu

[Sam Varshavchik]

Jan Kurik writes:


= Proposed System Wide Change: Hide the grub menu =
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/HiddenGrubMenu


Owner(s):
  * Hans de Goede 


On systems with only a single OS installed, the grub menu does not
offer any useful functionality, so we should hide it by default.


Ummm, yes it does. It lets you boot into single user mode, or select the  
previous kernel to boot. That might be a critical function, in an emergency.


Here's a radical idea: just prompt this as an installation option.



pgpeyEUyeRUvK.pgp
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