Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 12/06/2015 6:45 p.m., Nick Sabalausky wrote: On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And those are laptops, with screen and battery and everything. In New Zealand a fully upgraded top of the line model (the kind you get from Apply directly) is ~ $4000. For in store top of the line not fully upgraded it is about $3000. Mac Mini ~$1000. Well and truly above exchange rate.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And those are laptops, with screen and battery and everything.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 07:57:27 UTC, Adrian Matoga wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 07:36:51 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote: The minimum wage in Portugal is around 400€ after taxes, with around 1000€ for many university degrees. You can guess how many go out and buy a Mac. -- Paulo I remember I saw almost every student at IST with a Mac, and when everyone started to talk about the crisis, people were like uhm, well, we can't now afford to replace our Macs with new ones every year, only every other year maybe. IST is one of the best universities in the country. The majority of the students are from middle, upper, claases. Although there are also exceptions, of course. Also many that do buy one, do so with a 3 -5 year long leasing.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 07:36:51 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote: The minimum wage in Portugal is around 400€ after taxes, with around 1000€ for many university degrees. You can guess how many go out and buy a Mac. -- Paulo I remember I saw almost every student at IST with a Mac, and when everyone started to talk about the crisis, people were like uhm, well, we can't now afford to replace our Macs with new ones every year, only every other year maybe.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 06:50:01 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote: On 12/06/2015 6:45 p.m., Nick Sabalausky wrote: On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And those are laptops, with screen and battery and everything. In New Zealand a fully upgraded top of the line model (the kind you get from Apply directly) is ~ $4000. Hm, in Norway the 12core version fully upgraded is 11354USD without a screen… Are you sure you looked at Mac Pro? Mac Mini ~$1000. I get 695USD with no keyboard for 2 cores@1.4Ghz. A 3Ghz mac mini/16GB RAM/256GB SSD is 1775USD and still only *2* cores? I'd rather buy a used 4-core mac mini or go Linux.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 04:51:29 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On 6/11/15 11:47 PM, Joakim wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 02:13:26 UTC, Dan Olson wrote: Looks like there is no membership fee to build and install your own iOS apps with Xcode now. As usual, you still need a Mac to run Xcode. http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download-build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/ Huh, that's crazy that they don't make the iOS toolchain available outside OS X. The Android toolchain is available for all three major desktop platforms. Still, good that at least you don't have to pay now. You can develop for iOS on other platforms (I think not using objective-c or swift), but you cannot submit an app to the app store without Xcode. Really, I don't see why Apple needs to care about other platforms -- it's their toolchain, their runtime. This makes things very easy for them support-wise, and people still line up to get iPhones, so the incentive to support other platforms isn't really there. At dconf, I'd say at least 50% of the laptops were macs. They are good systems to use. The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. -Steve The minimum wage in Portugal is around 400€ after taxes, with around 1000€ for many university degrees. You can guess how many go out and buy a Mac. -- Paulo
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 08:46:19 UTC, rsw0x wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 08:43:39 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 06:50:01 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote: [...] Hm, in Norway the 12core version fully upgraded is 11354USD without a screen… Are you sure you looked at Mac Pro? [...] I get 695USD with no keyboard for 2 cores@1.4Ghz. A 3Ghz mac mini/16GB RAM/256GB SSD is 1775USD and still only *2* cores? I'd rather buy a used 4-core mac mini or go Linux. even in USA their prices are ridiculous for example, the $999 hidpi monitor they sell on their site? you can buy the same exact monitor for ~$250 on ebay directly from the korean manufacturer. I own one, it looks identical to the apple one. Funnily enough, I bought my macbook pro because it was significantly cheaper than anything comparable the competition had to offer.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 12/06/2015 8:43 p.m., Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= ola.fosheim.grostad+dl...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 06:50:01 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote: On 12/06/2015 6:45 p.m., Nick Sabalausky wrote: On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And those are laptops, with screen and battery and everything. In New Zealand a fully upgraded top of the line model (the kind you get from Apply directly) is ~ $4000. Hm, in Norway the 12core version fully upgraded is 11354USD without a screen… Are you sure you looked at Mac Pro? My bad, Mac Book Pro. Very similar name. Mac Mini ~$1000. I get 695USD with no keyboard for 2 cores@1.4Ghz. A 3Ghz mac mini/16GB RAM/256GB SSD is 1775USD and still only *2* cores? I'd rather buy a used 4-core mac mini or go Linux.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 08:43:39 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 06:50:01 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote: On 12/06/2015 6:45 p.m., Nick Sabalausky wrote: On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And those are laptops, with screen and battery and everything. In New Zealand a fully upgraded top of the line model (the kind you get from Apply directly) is ~ $4000. Hm, in Norway the 12core version fully upgraded is 11354USD without a screen… Are you sure you looked at Mac Pro? Mac Mini ~$1000. I get 695USD with no keyboard for 2 cores@1.4Ghz. A 3Ghz mac mini/16GB RAM/256GB SSD is 1775USD and still only *2* cores? I'd rather buy a used 4-core mac mini or go Linux. even in USA their prices are ridiculous for example, the $999 hidpi monitor they sell on their site? you can buy the same exact monitor for ~$250 on ebay directly from the korean manufacturer. I own one, it looks identical to the apple one.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 6/12/15 8:07 AM, Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= ola.fosheim.grostad+dl...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 11:58:35 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Those who are serious and willing to invest will buy one. I bought my macbook in 2011 for about $1800, I've made more than 50x that with it since doing iOS work. You don't find it odd that my 2012 mac mini is faster than similarly priced macs today? I do find it odd! Generally apple lowers their prices periodically for their newer versions, and the new stuff is usually faster. But, they do typically take away higher options for older models. For instance, the iPhones when they become the cheaper option, they limit the memory to 8 or 16GB. Looking at wikipedia, I see they don't offer a quad-core for the 2014 version as a base option (and they went from i7 to i5!), that's a shame. Also, not upgradeable RAM... I take it back. Don't buy one of these :) Buy a used 2012 version instead! That's a significant downgrade, I don't know who's deciding these things, but that's definitely a failure. What kind of apps do you make, it would be fun to have a look at them :) This is the app I worked on for 2 years (under contract): http://www.replaylocker.com/ I only worked with the iOS version, not the android version (which is a hand-ported clone of the iOS). I also wrote all the server code (C++ unfortunately, but you can definitely see my D roots in it :), which ran on an ARM based SBC. It was a pretty neat project, lots of networking challenges. There used to be demos to download so you could see how the system works without actually being in a location that supported it, but I think they took those down to save on bandwidth. So if you install the app, you likely will be disappointed :) -Steve
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 6/12/15 1:00 AM, Mattcoder wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 04:51:29 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. I don't want to be that guy but living in Brazil that Mac Mini (Yosemite) costs 6x more in here. I mean it can be more cheap to travel to U.S. and buy one there and go back than buying directly in here. That a pretty steep hike, I wonder why it's so much more expensive! -Steve
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:48:36 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:47:36 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: [...] I regret getting involved in an OS holywar. Sorry, I'm done with this thread. fedora debian vim emacs
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:42:37 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On 6/12/15 8:29 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:21:12 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and were able to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth it? 10x? What sort of pipe dream is that? OK, 2x, 1.5x. I have no frame of reference for what you can make as an iOS developer in your country. Where I live, I can make much more than 10x $160 per month. But if it increases your salary, it's worth investing in, no? You said 10x salary increase, not 10x return on investment. I won't argue with that. But just owning a piece of hardware isn't going to *multiply* your existing income. I guess that explains why so many programs with the same functionality are freeware on Windows and commercial on OSX. Open-source software development gives me 0 income, so it'd be a negative net gain. I don't agree with your statement, why would someone charge money on one platform and not on the other? Almost all apps from Apple are free for your Mac. Those that aren't generally have free alternatives. Last time I looked there was a pretty big difference in the diversity and availability of 3rd-party software. Which makes sense considering also the much smaller user market share. And I agree, doing open-source freeware development doesn't justify buying a computer of any kind. What? Here's the problem: if I own a PC, I can install Windows, Linux, FreeBSD etc. on it with no problems, or I can run any in a VM. I can do neither with OS X, I have to buy overpriced hardware from Apple to do that.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:47:36 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: [...] I regret getting involved in an OS holywar. Sorry, I'm done with this thread.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 6/12/15 3:36 AM, Paulo Pinto wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 04:51:29 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On 6/11/15 11:47 PM, Joakim wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 02:13:26 UTC, Dan Olson wrote: Looks like there is no membership fee to build and install your own iOS apps with Xcode now. As usual, you still need a Mac to run Xcode. http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download-build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/ Huh, that's crazy that they don't make the iOS toolchain available outside OS X. The Android toolchain is available for all three major desktop platforms. Still, good that at least you don't have to pay now. You can develop for iOS on other platforms (I think not using objective-c or swift), but you cannot submit an app to the app store without Xcode. Really, I don't see why Apple needs to care about other platforms -- it's their toolchain, their runtime. This makes things very easy for them support-wise, and people still line up to get iPhones, so the incentive to support other platforms isn't really there. At dconf, I'd say at least 50% of the laptops were macs. They are good systems to use. The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. The minimum wage in Portugal is around 400€ after taxes, with around 1000€ for many university degrees. You can guess how many go out and buy a Mac. Those who are serious and willing to invest will buy one. I bought my macbook in 2011 for about $1800, I've made more than 50x that with it since doing iOS work. If you want to make minimum wage, I can guess you shouldn't buy a mac :) -Steve
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 11:58:35 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On 6/12/15 3:36 AM, Paulo Pinto wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 04:51:29 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On 6/11/15 11:47 PM, Joakim wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 02:13:26 UTC, Dan Olson wrote: Looks like there is no membership fee to build and install your own iOS apps with Xcode now. As usual, you still need a Mac to run Xcode. http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download-build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/ Huh, that's crazy that they don't make the iOS toolchain available outside OS X. The Android toolchain is available for all three major desktop platforms. Still, good that at least you don't have to pay now. You can develop for iOS on other platforms (I think not using objective-c or swift), but you cannot submit an app to the app store without Xcode. Really, I don't see why Apple needs to care about other platforms -- it's their toolchain, their runtime. This makes things very easy for them support-wise, and people still line up to get iPhones, so the incentive to support other platforms isn't really there. At dconf, I'd say at least 50% of the laptops were macs. They are good systems to use. The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. The minimum wage in Portugal is around 400€ after taxes, with around 1000€ for many university degrees. You can guess how many go out and buy a Mac. Those who are serious and willing to invest will buy one. I bought my macbook in 2011 for about $1800, I've made more than 50x that with it since doing iOS work. If you want to make minimum wage, I can guess you shouldn't buy a mac :) -Steve Which wouldn't happen in Portugal, where it is easier to see someone on the street with Android, WP, feature phone than iOS. While most handsets are bought with pre-paid cards, iPhone requires a contract. Before Apple was reborn, buying a Mac meant having to travel to Porto or Lisbon and get one there, with leasing. Same thing to get them repaired. My university in Lisbon (UNL) was the first time I got to see LCs live, even then only used by administrative personal and one room for students with around 10 of them. Everywhere else on the campus there were DG/UX, Aix terminals and PCs available. Nowadays you can get them everywhere at a big surface, but for most families still means making use of 3 - 5 years leasing, given the average salaries and life cost. -- Paulo
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 6/12/15 8:29 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:21:12 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and were able to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth it? 10x? What sort of pipe dream is that? OK, 2x, 1.5x. I have no frame of reference for what you can make as an iOS developer in your country. Where I live, I can make much more than 10x $160 per month. But if it increases your salary, it's worth investing in, no? I'm not trying to say everyone should buy a mac or that they are cheap enough for everyone to afford. I'm saying if your investment in buying a mac increases your income significantly (as it did for me), the cost doesn't matter. It's an enabler for things that just aren't possible without it. I guess that explains why so many programs with the same functionality are freeware on Windows and commercial on OSX. Open-source software development gives me 0 income, so it'd be a negative net gain. I don't agree with your statement, why would someone charge money on one platform and not on the other? Almost all apps from Apple are free for your Mac. Those that aren't generally have free alternatives. And I agree, doing open-source freeware development doesn't justify buying a computer of any kind. That's not what I was saying. -Steve
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 6/12/15 8:07 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:03:59 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: If the cost of the computer you are using is *that* important to you, you aren't serious about investing what it takes to get the tools you need. That was part of my point. If you're telling me it's not worth an extra $160 to work on iOS, I think you probably have other objections besides that. It's OK, iOS development is not everyone's cup of tea. Woah now, that's an overly broad statement and carries some assumptions. $160 is my mom's MONTHLY salary over here. Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and were able to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth it? Perhaps that's not possible in your country, I don't really have an answer for that. I'm not trying to say everyone should buy a mac or that they are cheap enough for everyone to afford. I'm saying if your investment in buying a mac increases your income significantly (as it did for me), the cost doesn't matter. It's an enabler for things that just aren't possible without it. Sorry if it came off sounding arrogant or insensitive. -Steve
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:00:17 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On 6/12/15 1:00 AM, Mattcoder wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 04:51:29 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. I don't want to be that guy but living in Brazil that Mac Mini (Yosemite) costs 6x more in here. I mean it can be more cheap to travel to U.S. and buy one there and go back than buying directly in here. That a pretty steep hike, I wonder why it's so much more expensive! -Steve it's often referred to as 'brazil cost,' it gets rather political.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 11:58:35 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Those who are serious and willing to invest will buy one. I bought my macbook in 2011 for about $1800, I've made more than 50x that with it since doing iOS work. You don't find it odd that my 2012 mac mini is faster than similarly priced macs today? What kind of apps do you make, it would be fun to have a look at them :)
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:03:59 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: If the cost of the computer you are using is *that* important to you, you aren't serious about investing what it takes to get the tools you need. That was part of my point. If you're telling me it's not worth an extra $160 to work on iOS, I think you probably have other objections besides that. It's OK, iOS development is not everyone's cup of tea. Woah now, that's an overly broad statement and carries some assumptions. $160 is my mom's MONTHLY salary over here.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:21:12 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and were able to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth it? 10x? What sort of pipe dream is that? I'm not trying to say everyone should buy a mac or that they are cheap enough for everyone to afford. I'm saying if your investment in buying a mac increases your income significantly (as it did for me), the cost doesn't matter. It's an enabler for things that just aren't possible without it. I guess that explains why so many programs with the same functionality are freeware on Windows and commercial on OSX. Open-source software development gives me 0 income, so it'd be a negative net gain.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 08:46:19 UTC, rsw0x wrote: for example, the $999 hidpi monitor they sell on their site? you can buy the same exact monitor for ~$250 on ebay directly from the korean manufacturer. I own one, it looks identical to the apple one. I'm not surprised! I bet they saw too many developers buying 4-core minis and no screen and thought: hey, let's force devs to buy our 4-core iMacs, then we get to sell a screen too!. And I have to admit, if I _had_ to buy an iMac I'd be tempted to consider the retina version. But I think I'll just pass on an upgrade and make my next machine a 6+ core Linux box with a clang cross compiler and shared filesystem. I don't really mind using makefiles that much.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 6/12/15 2:45 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And those are laptops, with screen and battery and everything. If the cost of the computer you are using is *that* important to you, you aren't serious about investing what it takes to get the tools you need. That was part of my point. If you're telling me it's not worth an extra $160 to work on iOS, I think you probably have other objections besides that. It's OK, iOS development is not everyone's cup of tea. -Steve
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 06/12/2015 08:03 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On 6/12/15 2:45 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And those are laptops, with screen and battery and everything. If the cost of the computer you are using is *that* important to you, you aren't serious about investing what it takes to get the tools you need. That was part of my point. It was late and I (mis?)interpreted your statement as Macs are inexpensive these days. I was only making a counterargument to that. I'm not saying it can't be worthwhile investment in certain cases. If I had a mobile program out that was doing well on some other platform (ex Android), I'd certainly pony up for the various iOS costs-of-entry. But it *is* still a much higher cost-of-entry for most people (since most people aren't already on OSX) than for the other mobile platforms. It is good though that they've finally relaxed their stance a bit on what's now being called side-loading (or as I've called it since the 1980's, Running my own freaking software on my own freaking machine). Now it appears MS has dropped to last place in that regard (last I checked, they kinda let you do it, moreso than Apple used to, but there's still some goofy restrictions and it appeared primarily geared towards corporations with their own proprietary in-house-only tools).
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 19:36:25 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote: It is good though that they've finally relaxed their stance a bit on what's now being called side-loading (or as I've called it since the 1980's, Running my own freaking software on my own freaking machine). Now it appears MS has dropped to last place in that regard (last I checked, they kinda let you do it, moreso than Apple used to, but there's still some goofy restrictions and it appeared primarily geared towards corporations with their own proprietary in-house-only tools). it will never cease to amaze me that people are paying for things they don't even own. If you can't modify something, you don't own it - you're leasing it.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 6/12/15 3:44 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: On 06/12/2015 07:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Those who are serious and willing ***and able*** to invest will buy one. Fixed. If you want to make minimum wage, You've got to be fucking kidding everyone. Step out of your ivory tower once in a while. Gladly, it's nice outside today! [...]I can guess you shouldn't buy a mac :) In any case, you have your sequence of events is seriously backwards here. The correct order is: 1: Obtain $ 2: THEN Spend $ 3: GOTO 1 Notice how the loop can only be primed with Obtain, not Spend shit you don't fucking even have. Are you fucking kidding me? People who work minimum wage jobs have iPhones. They have credit cards. If someone has the ability to make above minimum wage, and all they have to do is finance the purchase of a mac, if they don't do it, then they have their priorities messed up. Note, I don't think everyone *can* make money if they just purchase a mac. I'm saying if you have the skills (and desire), and it costs you the risk of charging $500 on a credit card, you should do it if all you can get is minimum wage work otherwise. This is exactly how people get ahead in life, they don't wait for handouts. People who have successful businesses didn't start out with magical seed capital that didn't have to be paid back, they started out by working hard, making do with what they had, sacrificing other things, learning from their mistakes, and building on their successes. They don't cry in the corner saying poor me, if only I had X I could get ahead. Ask any person who built a company. Anyway, this is getting far too political. Now, about that bikeshed color... -Steve
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 06/12/2015 04:33 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Anyway, this is getting far too political. Now, about that bikeshed color... True, fair enough.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 06/12/2015 07:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Those who are serious and willing ***and able*** to invest will buy one. Fixed. If you want to make minimum wage, You've got to be fucking kidding everyone. Step out of your ivory tower once in a while. [...]I can guess you shouldn't buy a mac :) In any case, you have your sequence of events is seriously backwards here. The correct order is: 1: Obtain $ 2: THEN Spend $ 3: GOTO 1 Notice how the loop can only be primed with Obtain, not Spend shit you don't fucking even have.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 06/12/2015 03:46 PM, weaselcat wrote:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 19:36:25 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
It is good though that they've finally relaxed their stance a bit on
what's now being called side-loading (or as I've called it since the
1980's, Running my own freaking software on my own freaking
machine). Now it appears MS has dropped to last place in that regard
(last I checked, they kinda let you do it, moreso than Apple used to,
but there's still some goofy restrictions and it appeared primarily
geared towards corporations with their own proprietary in-house-only
tools).
it will never cease to amaze me that people are paying for things they
don't even own.
If you can't modify something, you don't own it - you're leasing it.
Yea. Problem is, there isn't much choice. If you need mobile internet
access, then you can't vote with your wallet because they ALL do it.
I really wish PalmOS was still around. Those were well-designed,
practical, easy-to-use AND non-Orwellian. Version 6 in particular was
looking really nice. But Xerox's patent trolls forced Palm to botch up
the Graffiti system, and then the device manufacturers effectively
killed PalmOS 6 because they refused to make anything but iOS clones
('cause that's where the buzz was), hence the WebOS debacle. And
that's how we got where we are today. :(
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 06/12/2015 04:33 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On 6/12/15 3:44 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: On 06/12/2015 07:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Those who are serious and willing ***and able*** to invest will buy one. Fixed. If you want to make minimum wage, You've got to be fucking kidding everyone. Step out of your ivory tower once in a while. Gladly, it's nice outside today! [...]I can guess you shouldn't buy a mac :) In any case, you have your sequence of events is seriously backwards here. The correct order is: 1: Obtain $ 2: THEN Spend $ 3: GOTO 1 Notice how the loop can only be primed with Obtain, not Spend shit you don't fucking even have. Are you fucking kidding me? People who work minimum wage jobs have iPhones. They have credit cards. If someone has the ability to make above minimum wage, and all they have to do is finance the purchase of a mac, if they don't do it, then they have their priorities messed up. Well, granted, if they have a minimum wage job *and* one of those $100+/month iPhone plans, then yea, their priorities probably are a bit borked. Note, I don't think everyone *can* make money if they just purchase a mac. I'm saying if you have the skills (and desire), and it costs you the risk of charging $500 on a credit card, Which, believe it or not, not everyone can do. And even those who can, that's still, as you say, a risk. you should do it if all you can get is minimum wage work otherwise. This is exactly how people get ahead in life, they don't wait for handouts. People who have successful businesses didn't start out with magical seed capital that didn't have to be paid back, they started out by working hard, making do with what they had, sacrificing other things, learning from their mistakes, and building on their successes. They don't cry in the corner saying poor me, if only I had X I could get ahead. Ask any person who built a company. Strawman. That's obviously taking things waaay off at the other extreme. Nobody's suggesting anything of that sort. Just work with what you have and good old-fashioned bootstrapping. But to act like everyone can always just go out and blow hundreds any time they damn well please (regardless of potential payoff) is just plain asinine bullshit and crassly ignores the basic fact that not everyone has the same resources you're clearly taking for granted. If Joe X doesn't have $Y (that isn't already earmarked for other apparently frivolous things, like, say food and shelter), then he can't fucking invest $Y until he does have it, no matter how much the rich self-entitled douchehbags toss around their favorite fucking handouts strawman. Go buy yourself 100 manufacturing plants. You should already be able to afford to BECAUSE it would make you money afterwords. Oh, wait, you can't do that? Go do it anyway and quit demanding handouts.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 2015-06-12 06:51, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: You can develop for iOS on other platforms (I think not using objective-c or swift), but you cannot submit an app to the app store without Xcode. I think Microsoft supports this. I don't remeber all the details but I think they showed launching an iOS simulator from Visual Studio, also launching the Apple iOS simulator running on a Mac. They've also implemented Cocoa Touch on Windows 10 to allow to easily port iOS application to Windows 10. Then there's of course Xamarin with its Mono that supports iOS development. The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. In Sweden it costs $670. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 6/12/15 8:47 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:42:37 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On 6/12/15 8:29 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:21:12 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and were able to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth it? 10x? What sort of pipe dream is that? OK, 2x, 1.5x. I have no frame of reference for what you can make as an iOS developer in your country. Where I live, I can make much more than 10x $160 per month. But if it increases your salary, it's worth investing in, no? You said 10x salary increase, not 10x return on investment. I said 10x because your mom's salary was the same as the difference between Nick's laptop and a Mac mini. What a crazy equation :) In any case, it's just the $160/month salary I was talking about. I won't argue with that. But just owning a piece of hardware isn't going to *multiply* your existing income. It definitely increased my income. How much depends on how much your income was before. If it's cost of the system, then I would say it's worth it. I guess I look at things differently. I guess that explains why so many programs with the same functionality are freeware on Windows and commercial on OSX. Open-source software development gives me 0 income, so it'd be a negative net gain. I don't agree with your statement, why would someone charge money on one platform and not on the other? Almost all apps from Apple are free for your Mac. Those that aren't generally have free alternatives. Last time I looked there was a pretty big difference in the diversity and availability of 3rd-party software. Which makes sense considering also the much smaller user market share. I haven't had a problem yet finding software that does what I need in Macos. And I agree, doing open-source freeware development doesn't justify buying a computer of any kind. What? The equation is: salary(currentEquipment) salary(currentEquipment + newEqupiment) - costOfNewEquipment If your salary increase for adding new equipment, whatever it is, is negative, then the salary increase can't be a justifying factor for purchasing the new equipment. Here's the problem: if I own a PC, I can install Windows, Linux, FreeBSD etc. on it with no problems, or I can run any in a VM. I can do neither with OS X, I have to buy overpriced hardware from Apple to do that. Again, if the fact that the hardware is overpriced is a potential deal-breaker, then it isn't for you. Don't run OSX if you don't want to. Don't write code for iOS if you don't want to. If you do want to, and you intend to use it to increase your income, then the overpriced hardware is worth it. That's ALL I'm saying. On 6/12/15 8:48 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: I regret getting involved in an OS holywar. Sorry, I'm done with this thread. Well, OK then. I didn't know it was a holy war :) -Steve
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:00:17 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: ... That a pretty steep hike, I wonder why it's so much more expensive! Import taxes and currency (Brazilian $ 3.20 = U$ 1.00). Welcome to the jungle! :) Matheus.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:34:06 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Also, not upgradeable RAM... I take it back. Don't buy one of these :) Buy a used 2012 version instead! That's a significant downgrade, I don't know who's deciding these things, but that's definitely a failure. Yeah, buy used, refurbished or just look for ways to upgrade parts seems like a good idea these days. Maybe companies like Apple and Microsoft just need control freaks like Jobs and Gates to keep things focused? I wonder if they had problems making MacPro earn back RD and saw iOS dev accounts making purchases of the 4-core minis. That could explain this rational business decision at the cost of bad PR with developers. In my country the mid-end MacPro (6 cores@3.5Ghz) is at 5164USD, but a store bought Haswell CPU 6 cores@3.3Ghz is at 477USD. That does not add up! By building my own I'd probably save over 60% for my use (compiling) . This is the app I worked on for 2 years (under contract): http://www.replaylocker.com/ I only worked with the iOS version, not the android version (which is a hand-ported clone of the iOS). That's pretty cool! Of course, if you have a contract with a solid entity you can also invest with a light heart :-). Investing in your own ideas in order to make money back on the app-store with no contract is a very risky investment though. bandwidth. So if you install the app, you likely will be disappointed :) Ah, but the website explains it pretty well. Looks like a very nice project to get involved with. Of course, next time you'll get to push harder for D since it has better C++ interop now. :)
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 6/11/15 11:47 PM, Joakim wrote: On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 02:13:26 UTC, Dan Olson wrote: Looks like there is no membership fee to build and install your own iOS apps with Xcode now. As usual, you still need a Mac to run Xcode. http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download-build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/ Huh, that's crazy that they don't make the iOS toolchain available outside OS X. The Android toolchain is available for all three major desktop platforms. Still, good that at least you don't have to pay now. You can develop for iOS on other platforms (I think not using objective-c or swift), but you cannot submit an app to the app store without Xcode. Really, I don't see why Apple needs to care about other platforms -- it's their toolchain, their runtime. This makes things very easy for them support-wise, and people still line up to get iPhones, so the incentive to support other platforms isn't really there. At dconf, I'd say at least 50% of the laptops were macs. They are good systems to use. The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. -Steve
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 04:51:29 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 new, and you get Xcode free. I don't want to be that guy but living in Brazil that Mac Mini (Yosemite) costs 6x more in here. I mean it can be more cheap to travel to U.S. and buy one there and go back than buying directly in here. Matheus.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 02:13:26 UTC, Dan Olson wrote: Looks like there is no membership fee to build and install your own iOS apps with Xcode now. As usual, you still need a Mac to run Xcode. http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download-build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/ Huh, that's crazy that they don't make the iOS toolchain available outside OS X. The Android toolchain is available for all three major desktop platforms. Still, good that at least you don't have to pay now.
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 03:47:48 UTC, Joakim wrote: Huh, that's crazy that they don't make the iOS toolchain available outside OS X. This _is_ Apple that we're talking about here. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: You too can work on D for iOS
On 6/11/15 10:13 PM, Dan Olson wrote: Looks like there is no membership fee to build and install your own iOS apps with Xcode now. As usual, you still need a Mac to run Xcode. http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download-build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/ Very cool. I let my developer license expire because I haven't done any real iOS work in over a year. But this is nice for tinkering. When you are ready to submit to the app store, you can pay for the license :) -Steve
