Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two "Delete" behaviors - one type of label?
You haven't used windows long enough then. :P The only reason to confirm, is because you can't undo. If you can undo the deletion easily, you don't need to confirm. The only reason not to make something undo-able is that you don't know how to. Not a very good reason. Go figure out how to make it undo-able. Everything that can be done with a computer, can be undone. I've even had software that can undo a save. (in a really dumb way) Trust the user. Let the user's actions guide you. They aren't dumb. They sometimes click things by accident, but that doesn't mean you should ask them the 100 other times when they meant to do it. Google has caught onto this idea recently. And their 'in-the-next-page' undo link is a good alternative to confirmation. But it is still confirmation. If they take even a single additional step, they lose undo. Multiple, modal, intelligent undo is the solution to all confirmation woes. That way, your confirmation messages can happen rarely and for things that really ARE unrecoverable. Not exactly sure what that would be, all the examples I can think of COULD have built into them undo. But if we are talking about, say, MySQL. If you drop a database, that is basically it for it unless you backed it up somewhere. Clearly, the solution is to have your software make a backup it can restore from, thus giving you undo, but there has to be software you might interface with that is poorly designed enough that you'd lose undo. It is only then when you'd need a confirmation message. That, or the case of very large data small space. Tightly packed data with limited space, like on a PDA. You may not be able to get away with full scale undo there. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=41286 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two "Delete" behaviors - one type of label?
I also like the undo idea. Another suggestion could be a trash can icon for immediate deletion, and a "Delete?" button for the delete requiring confirmation. I can't recall ever having to have confirmed a drag into a trash can or a click on a trash can, but the ? after Delete could indicate the questioning nature. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=41286 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two "Delete" behaviors - one type of label?
Undo FTW. Always. No exceptions. Infinite if possible. If I put it in the trash, the trash should take itself out when space is needed. Like Tivo, only not slow and otherwise clunky. Undo is the new delete. Anything else is laze. Peace! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=41286 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two "Delete" behaviors - one type of label?
What about "Send to Trash" and 'Delete Trash"? "Sending to the trash" would be more...keep it here for now, while "deleting" would be like placing the garbage bags out on the lawn. Jennifer == -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com] On Behalf Of Paras Aggarwal Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:30 AM To: disc...@ixda.org Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two "Delete" behaviors - one type of label? Though, I like the idea of using ellipsis to differentiate the two. But if I think from a normal user perspective it should be more intuitive and obvious. Color coding the "Immediate delete" as red can make the system more confusing as it will become more prominent and attract user as compared to "Mediated delete". What about labeling them as "Quick Delete" and "Delete"? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=41286 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help This email is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and conditions including on offers for the purchase or sale of securities, accuracy and completeness of information, viruses, confidentiality, legal privilege, and legal entity disclaimers, available at http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures/email. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two "Delete" behaviors - one type of label?
Though, I like the idea of using ellipsis to differentiate the two. But if I think from a normal user perspective it should be more intuitive and obvious. Color coding the "Immediate delete" as red can make the system more confusing as it will become more prominent and attract user as compared to "Mediated delete". What about labeling them as "Quick Delete" and "Delete"? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=41286 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two \"Delete\" behaviors - one type of label?
> > The ellipsis: Open File.. and Save As... imply that a name of the file > is required, rather than confirmation. I think in mainstream use it really just implies a very generic concept of "input is needed from the user before the action will occur". E.g. in Mac OS X, go to the Finder menu and you'll see "Empty Trash...". If you click on that you get a dialog asking you to confirm this action. You see the same use of the ellipsis in the "Apple" menu for "Restart..." and "Shut Down..." where again you get a confirmation dialog. These don't require you to input any text like in a Save As... or Open File... but to me are also valid uses of the ellipsis. I like "Delete" and "Delete now" but agree that these make more sense when they exist together or when the user has seen both appear and hopefully remembers that they appeared differently. Dev On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:29 PM, Alinta Thornton wrote: > You could consider using different labelling. For instance, Delete and > Remove, or Delete and Hide, or Delete and Move to trash. > > I don't think Delete now and Delete would work. This solution would > depend on the user having first seen the "Delete now", comparing the > two, and realising they are different. The labels aren't different > enough in my view since Delete on its own might mean "now". > > The ellipsis: Open File.. and Save As... imply that a name of the file > is required, rather than confirmation. > > Delete? is quite a good option because it implies a question that the > user must answer before the action is taken. > > Colour coding on its own is problematic, especially red, for colour > blind users. Combined with different labelling it might be helpful > though. > > > Alinta Thornton > User Experience Lead > > > independent digital media > web publishing | marketing+technology services | publisher solutions > Westside, Level 2 Suite C, 83 O'Riordan Street, Alexandria NSW Australia > 2015 PO Box 7160, Alexandria, NSW 2015 W www.idmco.com.au > > B http://eezia.blogspot.com > > > -Original Message- > From: discuss-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com > [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com] On Behalf Of > Elizabeth Bacon > Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 1:49 AM > To: disc...@ixda.org > Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two \"Delete\" behaviors - one type of > label? > > I support Dev in suggesting the ellipsis "..." to differentiate related > controls where the difference is that one acts immediately and the other > requires confirmation. A confirmation of a delete is technically a > dialog box, although a lightweight one, and the ellipses is a convention > here. "Delete" and "Delete..." are nicely differentiated. Although I > like the idea of "Delete now" and "Delete" as similar in efficiency. > > Cheers, > Liz > > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > Posted from the new ixda.org > http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=41286 > > > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe > http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines > http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. > http://www.ixda.org/help > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two \"Delete\" behaviors - one type of label?
You could consider using different labelling. For instance, Delete and Remove, or Delete and Hide, or Delete and Move to trash. I don't think Delete now and Delete would work. This solution would depend on the user having first seen the "Delete now", comparing the two, and realising they are different. The labels aren't different enough in my view since Delete on its own might mean "now". The ellipsis: Open File.. and Save As... imply that a name of the file is required, rather than confirmation. Delete? is quite a good option because it implies a question that the user must answer before the action is taken. Colour coding on its own is problematic, especially red, for colour blind users. Combined with different labelling it might be helpful though. Alinta Thornton User Experience Lead independent digital media web publishing | marketing+technology services | publisher solutions Westside, Level 2 Suite C, 83 O'Riordan Street, Alexandria NSW Australia 2015 PO Box 7160, Alexandria, NSW 2015 W www.idmco.com.au B http://eezia.blogspot.com -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Bacon Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 1:49 AM To: disc...@ixda.org Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two \"Delete\" behaviors - one type of label? I support Dev in suggesting the ellipsis "..." to differentiate related controls where the difference is that one acts immediately and the other requires confirmation. A confirmation of a delete is technically a dialog box, although a lightweight one, and the ellipses is a convention here. "Delete" and "Delete..." are nicely differentiated. Although I like the idea of "Delete now" and "Delete" as similar in efficiency. Cheers, Liz . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=41286 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two \"Delete\" behaviors - one type of label?
I support Dev in suggesting the ellipsis "..." to differentiate related controls where the difference is that one acts immediately and the other requires confirmation. A confirmation of a delete is technically a dialog box, although a lightweight one, and the ellipses is a convention here. "Delete" and "Delete..." are nicely differentiated. Although I like the idea of "Delete now" and "Delete" as similar in efficiency. Cheers, Liz . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=41286 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two \"Delete\" behaviors - one type of label?
There are also two flavors of Deletion: true delete and "move to trash" (from which the user can retrieve it later). A third flavor as well, for some products: Hide. Remove from library (other other view) but don't do anything with the file on disk. (And I think Adobe Bride has a "flag" variant which may collapse into the Hide version.) Any action which is not recoverable should have an "are you sure" option, even if the user is allowed to then say "yes, I'm sure forever, never ask me again" Actions which are recoverable but through curious means -- dig the file out of the trash, or find the original file on disk and add it back to the view -- deserve some user education at delete time. Actions which have standard recovery method (Undo), those are probably fine with no interruption (although even then, does the user realize that he can Undo?). -- Jim On Apr 15, 2009, at 1:58 PM, Daniel wrote: There are two "Delete" patterns I have noticed out there: 1. - Immediate Deletion: As the name implies, the delete action takes place immediately. There are no confirmation steps of any kind. 2. - Mediated Deletion: This type usually includes an intermediate "page" or dialogue box that asks the user to "confirm" that they indeed do want to delete the item along with very important pertinent information associated with the delete action. The problem for me arises when we use the same label for both of these different types of behaviors. In other words, nothing differentiates the different delete actions. Both of them may simply say "Delete this XYZ" Has anyone here seen a label that provides the users some sort of clue as to which action will take place? DISCLAIMER: (In the interest of clarity and saving time...I don't want this question to be confused with the closely related topic of whether "Confirmation dialogs" or "confirmation pages" are necessary. That's another question. For now I'd like to ask you to suspend your preference on whether you think confirmation is needed or not and assume that the system you are working on will have a "confirmation" step for some of the delete actions. To complicate things, the system will ALSO use Immediate Deletion. This way the problem is clear. Once again, this is not a question of whether you think the choice to allow both types of deletion is right or wrong. It's a question about labeling and differentiating two different delete processes.) Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two "Delete" behaviors - one type of label?
I like Dev Yamakawa's approach by putting an ellipsis after the word "Delete..." You could also do something like "Delete now" and "Delete?" and ask for confirmation after clicking the "Delete?" button. Just a suggestion. Though I do believe the best thing to do is to have an "undo" button after you've clicked. Cheers, Jason R. http://www.jasonrobb.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=41286 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two "Delete" behaviors - one type of label?
On email web apps (like Gmail), we have delete option which deletes the emails immediately and places them in the Trash folder. This seems to be a very normal practice for using 'Delete' functionality. Normally, no application does 'Instant Delete' as that is not a common interface practice. However, if you do want to use two kinds of Delete within a single application, I would rather go with Jack's solution i.e. color coding the buttons. On the other hand,I do not agree with Dev Yamakava, because ellipsis normally mean they are going to open a new dialog box and not a message box, so you should avoid using ellipsis(...) Now, coming over to the fact that you have an instant delete action as well, be sure that the function is 'Delete'. Check if it is not "Remove from list" or a similary kind of function that the button should be serving. In that case, your deletion is stuck to one button where you can ask for confirmation as well; while the other option can be renamed to something more intuitive. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=41286 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two "Delete" behaviors - one type of label?
Don't know what technology you're working with, but the Windows distinction between Delete and SHIFT-Delete comes to mind. It's not the same becuase they're both mediated, but it's an exmple of the user selecting one of two different actions to perform, which might work in your case. In a sense it comes down to user types. Mediated deletion (or undoable deletion) suits novices, hence it should be easier. Experts might want efficiency of immediate delete, and they can be expected to learn a "shift-delete" or equivalent to achieve it. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=41286 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two \"Delete\" behaviors - one type of label?
> > > Has anyone here seen a label that provides the users some sort of > clue as to which action will take place? I can't think of an example at the moment specific to Delete functionality but it is pretty common to append an ellipsis (...) to a label to indicate that further input is needed from the user for the associated action. E.g. "Open File..." or "Save As..." I wonder if this would make sense for your 2 types of Delete? Dev On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:32 AM, Harry wrote: > There's also a third pattern - deletion with undo (as used on gmail). This > combines immediacy with safety... > > http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/googles_gmail_undo.php > > Perhaps that's your solution right there, and it avoids futzing around with > a new term or icon for "instant-delete" which lets face it, isn't going to > receive widespread adoption. > > Harry > > -- > http://www.90percentofeverything.com > > > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Daniel wrote: > > > There are two "Delete" patterns I have noticed out there: > > > > 1. - Immediate Deletion: As the name implies, the delete action takes > > place immediately. There are no confirmation steps of any kind. > > > > 2. - Mediated Deletion: This type usually includes an intermediate > > "page" or dialogue box that asks the user to "confirm" that they > > indeed do want to delete the item along with very important pertinent > > information associated with the delete action. > > > > The problem for me arises when we use the same label for both of > > these different types of behaviors. > > > > In other words, nothing differentiates the different delete actions. > > Both of them may simply say "Delete this XYZ" > > > > Has anyone here seen a label that provides the users some sort of > > clue as to which action will take place? > > > > DISCLAIMER: > > (In the interest of clarity and saving time...I don't want this > > question to be confused with the closely related topic of whether > > "Confirmation dialogs" or "confirmation pages" are necessary. > > That's another question. > > > > For now I'd like to ask you to suspend your preference on whether > > you think confirmation is needed or not and assume that the system > > you are working on will have a "confirmation" step for some of the > > delete actions. To complicate things, the system will ALSO use > > Immediate Deletion. This way the problem is clear. Once again, this > > is not a question of whether you think the choice to allow both types > > of deletion is right or wrong. It's a question about labeling and > > differentiating two different delete processes.) > > > > > > > > > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > > To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org > > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > > > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two \"Delete\" behaviors - one type of label?
On Apr 15, 2009, at 9:58 AM, Daniel wrote: Has anyone here seen a label that provides the users some sort of clue as to which action will take place? I have distinguished between these two patterns before by making the "immediate deletion" buttons red, while leaving the "mediated deletion" buttons the standard button color. Best, Jack Jack L. Moffett Senior Interaction Designer inmedius 412.459.0310 x219 http://www.inmedius.com In our society, the scarce factor is not information, it is time to attend to information. - Herb Simon Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Two \"Delete\" behaviors - one type of label?
There's also a third pattern - deletion with undo (as used on gmail). This combines immediacy with safety... http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/googles_gmail_undo.php Perhaps that's your solution right there, and it avoids futzing around with a new term or icon for "instant-delete" which lets face it, isn't going to receive widespread adoption. Harry -- http://www.90percentofeverything.com On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Daniel wrote: > There are two "Delete" patterns I have noticed out there: > > 1. - Immediate Deletion: As the name implies, the delete action takes > place immediately. There are no confirmation steps of any kind. > > 2. - Mediated Deletion: This type usually includes an intermediate > "page" or dialogue box that asks the user to "confirm" that they > indeed do want to delete the item along with very important pertinent > information associated with the delete action. > > The problem for me arises when we use the same label for both of > these different types of behaviors. > > In other words, nothing differentiates the different delete actions. > Both of them may simply say "Delete this XYZ" > > Has anyone here seen a label that provides the users some sort of > clue as to which action will take place? > > DISCLAIMER: > (In the interest of clarity and saving time...I don't want this > question to be confused with the closely related topic of whether > "Confirmation dialogs" or "confirmation pages" are necessary. > That's another question. > > For now I'd like to ask you to suspend your preference on whether > you think confirmation is needed or not and assume that the system > you are working on will have a "confirmation" step for some of the > delete actions. To complicate things, the system will ALSO use > Immediate Deletion. This way the problem is clear. Once again, this > is not a question of whether you think the choice to allow both types > of deletion is right or wrong. It's a question about labeling and > differentiating two different delete processes.) > > > > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
[IxDA Discuss] Two \"Delete\" behaviors - one type of label?
There are two "Delete" patterns I have noticed out there: 1. - Immediate Deletion: As the name implies, the delete action takes place immediately. There are no confirmation steps of any kind. 2. - Mediated Deletion: This type usually includes an intermediate "page" or dialogue box that asks the user to "confirm" that they indeed do want to delete the item along with very important pertinent information associated with the delete action. The problem for me arises when we use the same label for both of these different types of behaviors. In other words, nothing differentiates the different delete actions. Both of them may simply say "Delete this XYZ" Has anyone here seen a label that provides the users some sort of clue as to which action will take place? DISCLAIMER: (In the interest of clarity and saving time...I don't want this question to be confused with the closely related topic of whether "Confirmation dialogs" or "confirmation pages" are necessary. That's another question. For now I'd like to ask you to suspend your preference on whether you think confirmation is needed or not and assume that the system you are working on will have a "confirmation" step for some of the delete actions. To complicate things, the system will ALSO use Immediate Deletion. This way the problem is clear. Once again, this is not a question of whether you think the choice to allow both types of deletion is right or wrong. It's a question about labeling and differentiating two different delete processes.) Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
