[OSGeo-Discuss] Fwd: Outreach event, (Milano, July 29) + call to folks attending FOSS4G Europe
[as this is a long message, please tune on an appropriate soundtrack such as: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GnWRjoP9mQ ] Dear all, 1) please see below, in relation to an EAANCVGI [1] project which has already been advertized in the past on this list... 2) While the topic of the July 29 event may seem to focus more on the thematic aspect of ecology, the team involved into its coordination is in fact a melting pot of hard-core OSGEO stack architects, with a track record on INSPIRE and other geomatic assets which should entice the OSGEO Community. 3) the EXPO in Milano is characterizing itself for a bunch of events happening also outside of the premises of the EXPO itself (the so called fuori EXPO...this would be an equivalent of the off-Broadway concept, if we were performers) 4) as Attivarti.org, we are considering the possibility of arranging a fuori EXPO event, e.g. on July 30. We do lots of events of this type... this would be a quasi-done deal, were it not for the fact that around the end of the month we will be in the full moon phase, which is not ideal to take measurements of night sky quality... [2] 5) howeverJuly 14-17 would be ideal (new moon days), and I understand that there will be a pow-wow of European folks not far from Milano...possibly Como? of course...FOSS4G Europe! so - here is the proposal from Attivarti.org , to anybody attending FOSS4G Europe (or, possibly, even not attending it, but planning to be in the Milano-Como area in mid-July) 6) Attivarti.org will make available a buiometro (the Sky Quality Meter) from our sensor pool. 6.1) One of our local points of contact in Milano will deliver this in the hands of... 7) ...one or more people interested in taking measurements of night sky quality (hence, light pollution) during the FOSS4G event, sharing them on the buiometriapartecipativa.org database and letting us know something about their experience [3] 7.1) this would not be the first time the BMP project comes to Como [4] 8) Attivarti.org (now collaborating with the Italian National Research Council) will share the results of the night sky quality mapping campaign from mid-July in the end-of-July event, and will use the data as a preparation for another event which will follow in September. Furthermore, the outcome of this twinning scheme will be advertised in upcoming meetings we will have in the framework of the Loss of the Night Network, for which Attivarti.org is the primary point of contact in Italy...so who knows, if we find interested parties, other collaborations may flow from this pilot experience. Thanks for your attention on a long message, and best regards Andrea Giacomelli Attivarti.org, President http://www.attivarti.org http://www.pibinko.org i...@pibinko.org [1] Empowered And Active Not Casual Volunteer Geographic Information [2] http://www.buiometriapartecipativa.org [3] http://www.pibinko.org/bmp2/?p=2265 [4] http://www.pibinko.org/pib/?p=3855 -- Forwarded message -- From: Andrea Giacomelli pibi...@gmail.com Date: 2015-06-23 18:33 GMT+02:00 [Apologies for cross-postings] On behalf of Attivarti.org I am glad to announce that the BuioMetria Partecipativa project (which started in 2008 with two hand-held SQMs, two environmental engineers and one idea on developing culture about light pollution in Italy) is invited to the World Expo in Milano, Italy. More interestingly, the invitation comes not for the project on its own, but because some institutes of the Italian National Research Council became interested in our work in late 2014, and in six months this initial interest took the form of a borrowing our SQMs (which we call buiometri for the Italian audience), and will be using them during the Summer in one of their dissemination projects. You may find all the details of the event at : http://www.attivarti.org/?p=2297 If you happen to be in Milano around July 29, and would like to meet (inside or outside of the EXPO), do let us know, and we'll see how this may be arranged. Best regards from Italy -- Andrea Giacomelli http://www.pibinko.org i...@pibinko.org +39 347 15 33 857 ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Hello Sanghee, I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I'd like to have a little bit more of context to make up my mind * Who asked to remove the slides? * Is «being possibily offensive to women» the only reason it was given to you? On the other hand, obviously you have you own reasons to keep the slides, but those reasons are not clear in the presentation because it lacks of... well, it lacks of someone *explaining* what are we seeing. May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference. But this is just my POV. Best regards, -- Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses Valencia (España) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Hi Sanghee, My personal opinion (as a female member of OSGeo) is that these slides are certainly NOT offensive to women. From your description, they are being used in context and there should be no problems with that. Jo On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- *Jo Cook* Astun Technology Ltd, The Coach House, 17 West Street, Epsom, Surrey, KT18 7RL, UK t:+44 7930 524 155 iShare - Data integration and publishing platform http://www.isharemaps.com/ * Company registration no. 5410695. Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 120 Manor Green Road, Epsom, Surrey, KT19 8LN VAT no. 864201149. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Charles Schweik cschw...@pubpol.umass.edu wrote: By asking Jeff about it offline, I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think those kinds of signals are moving the community the wrong direction, and that perhaps the author should consider this. I raised this because I have been in conferences where I've witnessed women being offended by things happening on stage and I think as a community we want to be sensitive to this since we are hopeful for more women to become engaged in FOSS4G. From my eye going through the slides, I didn't understand (and still don't) why zoom in on the Dali image needed to be on the slideshow. After a more careful examination -- that other viewers won't likely do -- I see that the first slide is an enlargement of part of that painting and then a second picture of it hanging in some building, under the group heading of 'Seoul is far away.' I still don't get why the enlargement is needed... but perhaps that is just me. But I think I am still right -- some women might be turned off to the conference by that zoom-in. Sorry for being to much direct on this. A man, thinking as a man, thinking on what a woman, thinking as a woman, could-possibly-may-be-in-some-case found something offensive. May be I'm also a Wester-Europen-Liberal-Minded (as Gert-Jan stated) but I don't get the point of someone in Massachusetts «patrolling» the thoughts of other woman, and we're not even discussing here a cultural difference, just a genre difference. Sorry, again, but I don't get it. -- Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses Valencia (España) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Le mercredi 24 juin 2015 13:29:43, Gert-Jan van der Weijden - Stichting OSGeo.nl a écrit : In my opinion as well there is not a problem, especially since both pictures are used within a certain context. However, I realize I'm looking through a Western-european, liberal cultural perspective. Perhaps someone from for instance the Senegal local OSGeo chapter can comment on this from a different cultural point of view? This is tricky. I'm afraid that If you take the lowest common denominator of all cultures of the world, you will be able to do little (what is polite in a culture might be rude in another one, and vice versa). I think that people going to a foreign country should be ready to face things that might not be accepted in their own country/culture and deal with it. The only clear red line is that you can never force someone from doing something he doesn't want to. There can also have marketing considerations into account. If one wants to target an audience from a certain culture, then adjusting your way of behaving to it might be a good choice (but might deter others...) That said, I'm a bit like Pedro-Juan when looking at the slides. Not shoked, but wondering why this painting ? (is it exhibited in Seoul?), why this group of women ? when seeing them, because not familiar enough with Seoul/South Korea Looking further in the slides I can also see pictures of beverages, some of them I suspect might contain alcohool. I guess that could make some people unconfortable too... In the code of conduct, it is mentionned assume good intentions, so I'd say let's do it for the LOC and let them do their job in peace. Even Regards, Gert-Jan -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] Namens Peter Baumann Verzonden: woensdag 24 juni 2015 13:12 Aan: Jeroen Ticheler; Sanghee Shin CC: OSGeo Discussions; Conference Dev Onderwerp: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case +1 -Peter On 06/24/15 13:01, Jeroen Ticheler wrote: Dear Sanghee, In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated, generalizing men as nerds)? ;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first place. I think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this request to remove art or remove single sex pictures) than that it prevents a person with bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan for the LOC on how to deal with a person acting offensively makes more sense to me. I trust our community members are able to behave as sensitive and sensible people that can auto-regulate issues like this in the same way we collaborate in FOSS projects. The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards others. Cheers, Jeroen On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org
[OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Dear Sanghee, In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated, generalizing men as nerds)? ;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first place. I think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this request to remove art or remove single sex pictures) than that it prevents a person with bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan for the LOC on how to deal with a person acting offensively makes more sense to me. I trust our community members are able to behave as sensitive and sensible people that can auto-regulate issues like this in the same way we collaborate in FOSS projects. The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards others. Cheers, Jeroen On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community. I want to point out that having just a Code of Conduct, words, on a website is not enough, there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this. In bold letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct. This is not acceptable. A few good volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great, but, it is still in discussion stage. Without some sort of plan, community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I have no formal way to handle these reports. (Sanghee was nice enough to help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply to all reports) I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity statement. I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to move forward, or not at all. -jeff -- Jeff McKenna President, OSGeo http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Hi, On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:08 PM, Milo van der Linden m...@dogodigi.net wrote: Hi Sanghee, Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion. 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the presentation. 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header Culture showing the row of female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I interpret this slide as: Come to Korea for the beautiful women and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the header Culture. 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a drinking game. There are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger. Final thought: I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul! looking at the presentation, I got exactly the same feeling as expressed so well by Milo. Personally, I don't feel offended by this presentation as a woman. However, due probably to my limitations, I don't get the messages that you (Sanghee) meant to deliver, otherwise than the one expressed by Milo. I support the idea that, due to the prominent placing of your presentation, it is extremely important that the message conveyed is agreed upon by the majority of the community, because somehow it does represent not only your personal view, but the shared view of the community. re to Jeroen: I don't think that the CoC itself caused the rising of this issue, on the contrary, it formalized a statement of how the majority of the community thinks it is right to behave... I think it is there to help, not to create problems.. just my 2 cents -- Best regards, Dr. Margherita DI LEO Scientific / technical project officer European Commission - DG JRC Institute for Environment and Sustainability (IES) Via Fermi, 2749 I-21027 Ispra (VA) - Italy - TP 261 Tel. +39 0332 78 3600 margherita.di-...@jrc.ec.europa.eu Disclaimer: The views expressed are purely those of the writer and may not in any circumstance be regarded as stating an official position of the European Commission. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
OK, I raised the question of appropriate content to Jeff after I looked at the FOSS4G website for a reference for a grant proposal I am writing at a time when I was thinking specifically about diversity recruitment to GeoForAll. By asking Jeff about it offline, I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think those kinds of signals are moving the community the wrong direction, and that perhaps the author should consider this. I raised this because I have been in conferences where I've witnessed women being offended by things happening on stage and I think as a community we want to be sensitive to this since we are hopeful for more women to become engaged in FOSS4G. From my eye going through the slides, I didn't understand (and still don't) why zoom in on the Dali image needed to be on the slideshow. After a more careful examination -- that other viewers won't likely do -- I see that the first slide is an enlargement of part of that painting and then a second picture of it hanging in some building, under the group heading of 'Seoul is far away.' I still don't get why the enlargement is needed... but perhaps that is just me. But I think I am still right -- some women might be turned off to the conference by that zoom-in. Sangee, your explanation of the side of the female models is helpful. But some people around the world will not understand it or misinterpret its meaning or why it is there. The 'Culture' heading helps I suppose. So at least consider having something on those slides explaining to readers what they represent better than they do currently. I'll close by saying, with all due respect to Sanghee and the others in this community who disagree with me, is that if you are trying to encourage people to come, and especially if your email footer says 'Towards Diversity' as a goal of the conference, then the 'Precautionary Principle' might be wise to follow. If I was doing the advertising to recruit people, I'd be conservative and wouldn't put up imagery that could turn off potential attendees. I'm not advocating any kind of censorship here, and I am not judging whether a COC is necessary or not. I just was simply raising a concern about underlying or subtle messages embedded in a 'commercial' being used to recruit people to our global conference. It appears that others disagree with this view. Charlie Schweik On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses pfer...@osgeo.org wrote: Hello Sanghee, I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I'd like to have a little bit more of context to make up my mind * Who asked to remove the slides? * Is «being possibily offensive to women» the only reason it was given to you? On the other hand, obviously you have you own reasons to keep the slides, but those reasons are not clear in the presentation because it lacks of... well, it lacks of someone *explaining* what are we seeing. May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference. But this is just my POV. Best regards, -- Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses Valencia (España) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Charlie Schweik Associate Professor, University of Massachusetts, Amherst Dept of Environmental Conservation and Center for Public Policy and Administration Personal website: http://people.umass.edu/cschweik Publications: http://works.bepress.com/charles_schweik/ Author, Internet Success: A Study of Open Source Software (MIT Press, 2012) - see http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545 Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Hi Sanghee, Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion. 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the presentation. 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header Culture showing the row of female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I interpret this slide as: Come to Korea for the beautiful women and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the header Culture. 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a drinking game. There are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger. Final thought: I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul! So thank you for that! With respect, kind regards. 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- [image: http://www.dogodigi.net] http://www.dogodigi.net *Milo van der Linden* web: dogodigi http://www.dogodigi.net tel: +31-6-16598808 ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
+1 -Peter On 06/24/15 13:01, Jeroen Ticheler wrote: Dear Sanghee, In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated, generalizing men as nerds)? ;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first place. I think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this request to remove art or remove single sex pictures) than that it prevents a person with bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan for the LOC on how to deal with a person acting offensively makes more sense to me. I trust our community members are able to behave as sensitive and sensible people that can auto-regulate issues like this in the same way we collaborate in FOSS projects. The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards others. Cheers, Jeroen On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev -- Dr. Peter Baumann - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann mail: p.baum...@jacobs-university.de tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793) www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882 Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata. (mail disclaimer, AD 1083) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
In my opinion as well there is not a problem, especially since both pictures are used within a certain context. However, I realize I'm looking through a Western-european, liberal cultural perspective. Perhaps someone from for instance the Senegal local OSGeo chapter can comment on this from a different cultural point of view? Regards, Gert-Jan -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] Namens Peter Baumann Verzonden: woensdag 24 juni 2015 13:12 Aan: Jeroen Ticheler; Sanghee Shin CC: OSGeo Discussions; Conference Dev Onderwerp: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case +1 -Peter On 06/24/15 13:01, Jeroen Ticheler wrote: Dear Sanghee, In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated, generalizing men as nerds)? ;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first place. I think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this request to remove art or remove single sex pictures) than that it prevents a person with bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan for the LOC on how to deal with a person acting offensively makes more sense to me. I trust our community members are able to behave as sensitive and sensible people that can auto-regulate issues like this in the same way we collaborate in FOSS projects. The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards others. Cheers, Jeroen On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev -- Dr. Peter Baumann - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann mail: p.baum...@jacobs-university.de tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793) www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882 Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata. (mail disclaimer, AD 1083) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Hi Charlie, I actually get your point of view, and tend to agree with it. Best regards, Bart On 24 Jun 2015, at 13:42, Charles Schweik cschw...@pubpol.umass.edu wrote: OK, I raised the question of appropriate content to Jeff after I looked at the FOSS4G website for a reference for a grant proposal I am writing at a time when I was thinking specifically about diversity recruitment to GeoForAll. By asking Jeff about it offline, I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think those kinds of signals are moving the community the wrong direction, and that perhaps the author should consider this. I raised this because I have been in conferences where I've witnessed women being offended by things happening on stage and I think as a community we want to be sensitive to this since we are hopeful for more women to become engaged in FOSS4G. From my eye going through the slides, I didn't understand (and still don't) why zoom in on the Dali image needed to be on the slideshow. After a more careful examination -- that other viewers won't likely do -- I see that the first slide is an enlargement of part of that painting and then a second picture of it hanging in some building, under the group heading of 'Seoul is far away.' I still don't get why the enlargement is needed... but perhaps that is just me. But I think I am still right -- some women might be turned off to the conference by that zoom-in. Sangee, your explanation of the side of the female models is helpful. But some people around the world will not understand it or misinterpret its meaning or why it is there. The 'Culture' heading helps I suppose. So at least consider having something on those slides explaining to readers what they represent better than they do currently. I'll close by saying, with all due respect to Sanghee and the others in this community who disagree with me, is that if you are trying to encourage people to come, and especially if your email footer says 'Towards Diversity' as a goal of the conference, then the 'Precautionary Principle' might be wise to follow. If I was doing the advertising to recruit people, I'd be conservative and wouldn't put up imagery that could turn off potential attendees. I'm not advocating any kind of censorship here, and I am not judging whether a COC is necessary or not. I just was simply raising a concern about underlying or subtle messages embedded in a 'commercial' being used to recruit people to our global conference. It appears that others disagree with this view. Charlie Schweik On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses pfer...@osgeo.org mailto:pfer...@osgeo.org wrote: Hello Sanghee, I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I'd like to have a little bit more of context to make up my mind * Who asked to remove the slides? * Is «being possibily offensive to women» the only reason it was given to you? On the other hand, obviously you have you own reasons to keep the slides, but those reasons are not clear in the presentation because it lacks of... well, it lacks of someone *explaining* what are we seeing. May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference. But this is just my POV. Best regards, -- Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses Valencia (España) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Charlie Schweik Associate Professor, University of Massachusetts, Amherst Dept of Environmental Conservation and Center for Public Policy and Administration Personal website: http://people.umass.edu/cschweik http://people.umass.edu/cschweik Publications: http://works.bepress.com/charles_schweik/ http://works.bepress.com/charles_schweik/ Author, Internet Success: A Study of Open Source Software (MIT Press, 2012) - see http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545 http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545 Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es http://five.sentenc.es/___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Board] Fwd: Code of Conduct in Real Case
Hi Bart, Yup I fully agree, I was explaining to those passionate about this of the Board meeting date, how to ask the Board, I even created a wiki page for the committee, etc, but those interested got quiet (I can't push everything). There currently isn't a method to discuss, so this was offline, but hopefully my public push that you mentioned, will give everyone the deadline they need. (by the way, yes I'm keeping my response to only 1 list) -jeff On 2015-06-24 9:27 AM, Bart van den Eijnden wrote: Hey Jeff, if you truly feel this way, please put forward a motion on the next board meeting. This needs to be decided by the board as a whole I guess. Personally I’m not in favour of destroying all that good work, but I also understand the need to move forward. Where are those discussions happening right now? Best regards, Bart I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity statement. I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to move forward, or not at all. -jeff -- Jeff McKenna President, OSGeo http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
I’m not sure who the “we” you are referring to here is, but it certainly does not include me. I am absolutely, 100%, interested in having more women become engaged in FOSS4G. Please don’t make such sweeping generalizations. We are a broad community, a global community, but we are not truly reflective of the whole world. We are largely white men from wealthy countries. I *want* people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. And that means making sure have a community where *everyone* feels welcome. If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away. A CoC is not a sign that we are dying, a CoC is a sign that we acknowledge that we are insufficiently inclusive, and that we as a community will not stand for that. It’s a sign that says “We do not want behaviors that drive people away, behaviors that make our community *smaller*. We are a welcoming community and we want *you* to be part of it.”Is a CoC sufficient to create that community? Absolutely not, but it’s a step forwards. A flag in the ground — a flag that says, “We welcome you!” If we’re afraid of that, then we truly are a dying community, and one that deserves to meet its quiet, irrelevant end. Darrell We are not interested in more women to become engaged in FOSS4G. We are interested in people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. We don't care about the sex, the colour, the religious or the operating system. Why are we interested specifically in more women? There is a large and growing business behind FOSS4G, which is an huge accomplishment of FOSS4G, that we should care and maintain. It is ok to have some grey people with a strange piece of cloth knotted at the throat attending FOSS4G and moving around. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
So we have had a difficult question related to the CoC. I'm sure it won't be the first. Based on feedback so far, it appears that rough consensus is that the suggested images don't represent a breach of (western) norms of what is considered acceptable. So here is a proposed action plan: * OSGeo put the question to a vote (probably on the OSGeo-Conf list). * Assuming the images are considered acceptable by the list, we respond with: Thank you for raising the possibility of a CoC breach. We have considered your suggestion, and in this case, we have decided that we do not think that the intent of the CoC has been breached. If you have further information which you wish to raise you are welcome to do so. Thank for you caring and we hope to see you at future OSGeo events. Warm regards chair of committee I suggest that we don't throw out the the CoC just because of an over-protective reference to it. The CoC will be very helpful if/when we need to deal with a serious breach. Hi Kristin, It is great to hear that you are working on an implementation plan. If you would like some help with reviewing or similar, then feel free to contact me. Warm regards, Cameron On 25/06/2015 1:52 am, Kristin Bott wrote: Hi, all -- Including the conference list on this, since I think it's relevant (and I suspect that variations on this conversation are happening in multiple corners). re: implementation plans for the CoC. A group of folks met during State of the Map in NYC earlier this month to talk about what an implementation plan might look like. We are currently drafting language to present to the board to form a CoC committee /as well as /drafting an implementation plan. Jeff, we can most certainly have this done by 1 September 2015. Responding to CoC concerns is not simple -- we're trying to create a structure and a process that will make this as smooth as possible for all involved. If you have any questions / concerns about this, feel free to contact me, off-list or otherwise. cheers - -kristin On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:03 AM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com mailto:jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community. I want to point out that having just a Code of Conduct, words, on a website is not enough, there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this. In bold letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct. This is not acceptable. A few good volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great, but, it is still in discussion stage. Without some sort of plan, community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I have no formal way to handle these reports. (Sanghee was nice enough to help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply to all reports) I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity statement. I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to move forward, or not at all. -jeff -- Jeff McKenna President, OSGeo http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Dear All, One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as well as art history book. If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA. I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture. I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting. All the best, Sanghee --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org 2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden m...@dogodigi.net 작성: Hi Sanghee, Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion. 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the presentation. 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header Culture showing the row of female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I interpret this slide as: Come to Korea for the beautiful women and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the header Culture. 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a drinking game. There are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger. Final thought: I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul! So thank you for that! With respect, kind regards. 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com mailto:shs...@gaia3d.com: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org http://2015.foss4g.org/ [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org http://2015.foss4g.org/ Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org mailto:foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Just my 0.0002 cents, I feel things are getting over complicated. We have a CoC, and I think all the Charther member should confirm they agree (actually a pre-requisite to become a charter member). Then if a serious case is detected the Member can be eventually banned from the community. Otherwise we could pretend to do a have an official censorship system checking all contents and decides what is fine or not... :-D My point of view is that unless explicitly offensive and against law it is responsability and credibility of each person to act according correct moral society rules. Maxi 2015-06-24 15:13 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com: Dear All, One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as well as art history book. If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA. I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture. I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting. All the best, Sanghee --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org 2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden m...@dogodigi.net 작성: Hi Sanghee, Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion. 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the presentation. 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header Culture showing the row of female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I interpret this slide as: Come to Korea for the beautiful women and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the header Culture. 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a drinking game. There are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger. Final thought: I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul! So thank you for that! With respect, kind regards. 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct Implementation Plan Was: Code of Conduct in Real Case
Hi Kate, I came up with a 1st September deadline in my head because I don't want the FOSS4G event to come along without some sort of way to handle reports. We can ignore the deadline, but I wanted to let everyone know that a process is really needed, besides text on a webpage. You and I and others were part of these offline implementation plan discussions, which were great, but I think it stalled when selecting the name of the committee. Maybe what is best is if we move those private discussions to here, on this list. I do notice now that Camille has been recently adding to the initial wiki page for the possible committee: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/CodeOfConduct_Committee As noted in offline discussions, we can always create a new wiki page if we need to rename the committee. -jeff On 2015-06-24 11:21 AM, Kate Chapman wrote: Hi Jeff, I thought this comment deserved its own discussion. While I agree that not having an implementation plan for the Code of Conduct is not acceptable I view it as just as unacceptable to switch to a diversity statement. When I registered for FOSS4G last week it was with the understanding that OSGEO has adopted a Code of Conduct. If this is simply switched to a diversity statement I will not be attending FOSS4G. I am not the only women I know that would feel the same way. I do not attend conferences without a Code of Conduct and some companies do not sponsor conferences without a Code of Conduct. I will assist in the implementation, but I am not leading it. I am willing to volunteer as a contact to assist people at FOSS4G if the implementation plan includes the need for a contact person (which I suspect it would). -Kate On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:03 AM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com mailto:jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community. I want to point out that having just a Code of Conduct, words, on a website is not enough, there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this. In bold letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct. This is not acceptable. A few good volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great, but, it is still in discussion stage. Without some sort of plan, community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I have no formal way to handle these reports. (Sanghee was nice enough to help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply to all reports) I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity statement. I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to move forward, or not at all. -jeff ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Hahaha! I appreciate this. Maybe we need to add some statistics to your political-correctness-o-meter to measure how much of the world population is potentially still on board at the final slide. This will give a clear insight of how many people will come to the event. ;-) On Jun 24, 2015 3:41 PM, Iván Sánchez i...@sanchezortega.es wrote: El Miércoles 24. junio 2015 12.42.40 Charles Schweik escribió: [...] I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think [...] I feel obliged to jump in the thread, because this looks just like a recent case of the limits of joking in Spanish media. Imagine this: Person A makes a joke involving person B who was a victim of a terrorist bombing. Person C throws a tantrum and tells the media I'm sure B finds A's jokes insulting, thus A must resign from his job[1]. Then, person B jumps in and publicly states that she never felt offended by A's jokes at all[2]. [1] http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/06/13/madrid/1434219265_951793.html [2] http://www.larazon.es/opinion/columnistas/mas-fuerte-que-el-odio-AF10047124 In other words: Saying Person A should take this down because I find it offensive is perfectly OK. Saying Person A should take this down because it is possibly potentially offensive to a third party is not OK (and actually erodes the right to freedom of expression). I need to ask for **evidence-based policy** here. There is a big difference between a Dali painting *maybe* turning someone off FOSS4G and a Dali painting *actually* turning someone off FOSS4G. Furthermore, there is such a thing like too much political correctness. I will illustrate *ad absurdum* by turning my own political-correctness-o-meter up to eleven for a second: Sanghee should remove slide 15 because blood sausages are maybe potentially offensive to muslims and vegans. Sanghee should remove slide 17 because the kerning can maybe potentially make the eyes of experience typesetters bleed. Sanghee should remove slides 18 and 19 because they might be potential triggers for agoraphobics. Sanghee should remove slide 22 because it might be potentially insulting to astronomers concerned by light pollution. Sanghee should remove slide 23 because it might be potentially insulting to grammar nazis. I should remove the previous sentence because someone might potentially find nazis offensive. Sanghee should remove slide 25 because it might be potentially insulting to geodesists who know circles don't have a meaning outside of distance- preserving projections (incidentally, these are the same people offended by EPSG:3857 being used everywhere) and find that FOSS4G is not representative of the professionalism required to attend such an event. Sanghee should remove slide 30 because the alignment might be a potential trigger for people with obsessive-compulsive disorder. Sanghee should remove slides 37-42 because they might be potentially offensive to alcoholics and former alcoholics. /rant -- Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es i...@geonerd.org i...@mazemap.no ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct Implementation Plan Was: Code of Conduct in Real Case
Hi Jeff, I thought this comment deserved its own discussion. While I agree that not having an implementation plan for the Code of Conduct is not acceptable I view it as just as unacceptable to switch to a diversity statement. When I registered for FOSS4G last week it was with the understanding that OSGEO has adopted a Code of Conduct. If this is simply switched to a diversity statement I will not be attending FOSS4G. I am not the only women I know that would feel the same way. I do not attend conferences without a Code of Conduct and some companies do not sponsor conferences without a Code of Conduct. I will assist in the implementation, but I am not leading it. I am willing to volunteer as a contact to assist people at FOSS4G if the implementation plan includes the need for a contact person (which I suspect it would). -Kate On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:03 AM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community. I want to point out that having just a Code of Conduct, words, on a website is not enough, there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this. In bold letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct. This is not acceptable. A few good volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great, but, it is still in discussion stage. Without some sort of plan, community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I have no formal way to handle these reports. (Sanghee was nice enough to help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply to all reports) I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity statement. I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to move forward, or not at all. -jeff -- Jeff McKenna President, OSGeo http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
El Miércoles 24. junio 2015 12.42.40 Charles Schweik escribió: [...] I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think [...] I feel obliged to jump in the thread, because this looks just like a recent case of the limits of joking in Spanish media. Imagine this: Person A makes a joke involving person B who was a victim of a terrorist bombing. Person C throws a tantrum and tells the media I'm sure B finds A's jokes insulting, thus A must resign from his job[1]. Then, person B jumps in and publicly states that she never felt offended by A's jokes at all[2]. [1] http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/06/13/madrid/1434219265_951793.html [2] http://www.larazon.es/opinion/columnistas/mas-fuerte-que-el-odio-AF10047124 In other words: Saying Person A should take this down because I find it offensive is perfectly OK. Saying Person A should take this down because it is possibly potentially offensive to a third party is not OK (and actually erodes the right to freedom of expression). I need to ask for **evidence-based policy** here. There is a big difference between a Dali painting *maybe* turning someone off FOSS4G and a Dali painting *actually* turning someone off FOSS4G. Furthermore, there is such a thing like too much political correctness. I will illustrate *ad absurdum* by turning my own political-correctness-o-meter up to eleven for a second: Sanghee should remove slide 15 because blood sausages are maybe potentially offensive to muslims and vegans. Sanghee should remove slide 17 because the kerning can maybe potentially make the eyes of experience typesetters bleed. Sanghee should remove slides 18 and 19 because they might be potential triggers for agoraphobics. Sanghee should remove slide 22 because it might be potentially insulting to astronomers concerned by light pollution. Sanghee should remove slide 23 because it might be potentially insulting to grammar nazis. I should remove the previous sentence because someone might potentially find nazis offensive. Sanghee should remove slide 25 because it might be potentially insulting to geodesists who know circles don't have a meaning outside of distance- preserving projections (incidentally, these are the same people offended by EPSG:3857 being used everywhere) and find that FOSS4G is not representative of the professionalism required to attend such an event. Sanghee should remove slide 30 because the alignment might be a potential trigger for people with obsessive-compulsive disorder. Sanghee should remove slides 37-42 because they might be potentially offensive to alcoholics and former alcoholics. /rant -- Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es i...@geonerd.org i...@mazemap.no ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Hello Darrell, I don’t think the reason why OSGeo has not so many women are caused by lacking of CoC in OSGeo. According to the statistics National Centre for Education Statistics[0], women have outnumbered men in American colleges for last 35 years. However women just selected another jobs rather than programming or geospatial. It’s not our fault. I couldn’t recall any decisive moment that lacking of CoC in OSGeo excluded participation of female except recent comments from Kate. It’s very similar in Korea as well. More than 45% of college students are female. However they *DO* select another jobs instead of selecting programming or geospatial. That’s why only around 10% are female in Korean Chapter. It’s not because lacking of CoC. If we want to be a broad community, a global community, also truly reflective of the whole world, we’d better discuss how to effectively engage other members from 3rd countries or developing countries. Do you know people in Asia outnumber the other part of the world? Frankly to say I haven’t seen any much effort from OSGeo to try to engage members from developing countries. Ah.. we have travel grants once a year. You said, If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away.” Great! And then what is the real relation between your phrase and CoC. Do you really believe that imposing CoC automatically make OSGeo more welcomed organisation to 3rd countries or developing countries members? I feel that CoC is for white women in advanced countries. I know I might be wrong. However whenever we talk about CoC, it’s all about sexy image or something like that. It’s not about how to engage 2/3 of world population. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_303.10.asp --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org 2015. 6. 24., 오후 10:42, Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.org 작성: I’m not sure who the “we” you are referring to here is, but it certainly does not include me. I am absolutely, 100%, interested in having more women become engaged in FOSS4G. Please don’t make such sweeping generalizations. We are a broad community, a global community, but we are not truly reflective of the whole world. We are largely white men from wealthy countries. I *want* people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. And that means making sure have a community where *everyone* feels welcome. If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away. A CoC is not a sign that we are dying, a CoC is a sign that we acknowledge that we are insufficiently inclusive, and that we as a community will not stand for that. It’s a sign that says “We do not want behaviors that drive people away, behaviors that make our community *smaller*. We are a welcoming community and we want *you* to be part of it.”Is a CoC sufficient to create that community? Absolutely not, but it’s a step forwards. A flag in the ground — a flag that says, “We welcome you!” If we’re afraid of that, then we truly are a dying community, and one that deserves to meet its quiet, irrelevant end. Darrell We are not interested in more women to become engaged in FOSS4G. We are interested in people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. We don't care about the sex, the colour, the religious or the operating system. Why are we interested specifically in more women? There is a large and growing business behind FOSS4G, which is an huge accomplishment of FOSS4G, that we should care and maintain. It is ok to have some grey people with a strange piece of cloth knotted at the throat attending FOSS4G and moving around. ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Hi, all -- Including the conference list on this, since I think it's relevant (and I suspect that variations on this conversation are happening in multiple corners). re: implementation plans for the CoC. A group of folks met during State of the Map in NYC earlier this month to talk about what an implementation plan might look like. We are currently drafting language to present to the board to form a CoC committee *as well as *drafting an implementation plan. Jeff, we can most certainly have this done by 1 September 2015. Responding to CoC concerns is not simple -- we're trying to create a structure and a process that will make this as smooth as possible for all involved. If you have any questions / concerns about this, feel free to contact me, off-list or otherwise. cheers - -kristin On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:03 AM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community. I want to point out that having just a Code of Conduct, words, on a website is not enough, there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this. In bold letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct. This is not acceptable. A few good volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great, but, it is still in discussion stage. Without some sort of plan, community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I have no formal way to handle these reports. (Sanghee was nice enough to help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply to all reports) I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity statement. I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to move forward, or not at all. -jeff -- Jeff McKenna President, OSGeo http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
(I've been trying not to post again, but since in a way I started this (not meant to go so publicly!), here's my last post): This isn't a COC issue. This is a discussion about FOSS4G recruitment and messaging issue, representing all of us globally who feel part of the FOSS4G community and want to see it thrive and grow. The posts by Milo and Margherita captured the confusion I had over messaging better than I did. Agreed, I'm male. Please forgive me for trying to be sensitive to half the world's population and one that our discipline has trouble recruiting, and not understanding what the message was in the Dali sequence and the models sequence. Sanghee - I regret not contacting you about this directly and meant no disrespect. Jeff- sorry for the heartburn. Charlie Schweik On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Massimiliano Cannata massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch wrote: Just my 0.0002 cents, I feel things are getting over complicated. We have a CoC, and I think all the Charther member should confirm they agree (actually a pre-requisite to become a charter member). Then if a serious case is detected the Member can be eventually banned from the community. Otherwise we could pretend to do a have an official censorship system checking all contents and decides what is fine or not... :-D My point of view is that unless explicitly offensive and against law it is responsability and credibility of each person to act according correct moral society rules. Maxi 2015-06-24 15:13 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com: Dear All, One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as well as art history book. If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA. I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture. I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting. All the best, Sanghee --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org 2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden m...@dogodigi.net 작성: Hi Sanghee, Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion. 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the presentation. 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header Culture showing the row of female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I interpret this slide as: Come to Korea for the beautiful women and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the header Culture. 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a drinking game. There are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger. Final thought: I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul! So thank you for that! With respect, kind regards. 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Dear Charles, I understand your real intention now. Just like you mentioned, it's not the issue of CoC. That's me who links this with CoC. And I myself brought this to the public discussion since I felt I could be wrong and this might be the matter of CoC. We should have discussed this earlier in private first. Thanks for your care. Sanghee 2015. 6. 24. 오후 2:54에 Charles Schweik cschw...@pubpol.umass.edu님이 작성: (I've been trying not to post again, but since in a way I started this (not meant to go so publicly!), here's my last post): This isn't a COC issue. This is a discussion about FOSS4G recruitment and messaging issue, representing all of us globally who feel part of the FOSS4G community and want to see it thrive and grow. The posts by Milo and Margherita captured the confusion I had over messaging better than I did. Agreed, I'm male. Please forgive me for trying to be sensitive to half the world's population and one that our discipline has trouble recruiting, and not understanding what the message was in the Dali sequence and the models sequence. Sanghee - I regret not contacting you about this directly and meant no disrespect. Jeff- sorry for the heartburn. Charlie Schweik On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Massimiliano Cannata massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch wrote: Just my 0.0002 cents, I feel things are getting over complicated. We have a CoC, and I think all the Charther member should confirm they agree (actually a pre-requisite to become a charter member). Then if a serious case is detected the Member can be eventually banned from the community. Otherwise we could pretend to do a have an official censorship system checking all contents and decides what is fine or not... :-D My point of view is that unless explicitly offensive and against law it is responsability and credibility of each person to act according correct moral society rules. Maxi 2015-06-24 15:13 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com: Dear All, One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as well as art history book. If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA. I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture. I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting. All the best, Sanghee --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org 2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden m...@dogodigi.net 작성: Hi Sanghee, Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion. 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the presentation. 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header Culture showing the row of female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I interpret this slide as: Come to Korea for the beautiful women and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the header Culture. 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a drinking game. There are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger. Final thought: I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul! So thank you for that! With respect, kind regards. 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
I don’t think the reason why OSGeo has not so many women are caused by lacking of CoC in OSGeo. According to the statistics National Centre for Education Statistics[0], women have outnumbered men in American colleges for last 35 years. Great. Why are so few of them in positions of power? Why aren’t a majority of our CEOs women? Why aren’t a majority of our biologists women? Why aren’t a majority of our legislators women? We can come up with all sorts of excuses to dance around the problem, because we’d rather go through mental contortions than admit the obvious: sexism in ubiquitous . (For a related discussion, I recommend the book “Racism without Racists” which thoroughly examines how a lot of people who don’t think of themselves as racist actually take part in behaviors and support structures that are in fact, racist.) However women just selected another jobs rather than programming or geospatial. It’s not our fault. I couldn’t recall any decisive moment that lacking of CoC in OSGeo excluded participation of female except recent comments from Kate. This is false. Simply false. If people are abused out of a line of work until they quit, that’s not “women choosing other jobs” anymore than me walking into your house, punching you in the face until you leave then claiming “He abandoned it” means it’s not my fault. It *is* our fault. It’s systemic and it’s pernicious. And honestly, it doesn’t take much looking to find stories of women who have left technical fields because they’re tired of the abuse. But the reality is most of them quietly leave, so when people say, “I can’t recall a time that happened…” it’s not because it doesn’t happen, it’s because those people aren’t paying attention. It’s very similar in Korea as well. More than 45% of college students are female. However they *DO* select another jobs instead of selecting programming or geospatial. That’s why only around 10% are female in Korean Chapter. It’s not because lacking of CoC. Are you sure? I mean this seriously. Do you have evidence for that, or are you just assuming? I’m not fetishizing the CoC itself, obviously having a CoC doesn’t magically make an open community, but it’s a symbol that the community does take inclusivity seriously. If we want to be a broad community, a global community, also truly reflective of the whole world, we’d better discuss how to effectively engage other members from 3rd countries or developing countries. Do you know people in Asia outnumber the other part of the world? Frankly to say I haven’t seen any much effort from OSGeo to try to engage members from developing countries. Ah.. we have travel grants once a year. You will not get an argument for me. I’ve been arguing for a long time that there needs to be concerted and honest outreach to the rest of the world. So far the OSGeo model has been “build it and they they will come” (to use a Hollywood reference). This is, of course, hogwash. I’ve had a number of conversations about how OSGeo should be sponsoring workshops around world. Spending the money produced by FOSS4G to put on “FOSS4G East Africa” even if it loses money. I want there to be FOSS4G Ouagadougou, FOSS4G Kuala Lampur, FOSS4G Vietnam, FOSS4G Uruguay. That’s the world I want. You said, If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away.” Great! And then what is the real relation between your phrase and CoC. Do you really believe that imposing CoC automatically make OSGeo more welcomed organisation to 3rd countries or developing countries members? No, of course not. CoC’s aren’t magic, but they’re a statement of belief in higher ideal. I feel that CoC is for white women in advanced countries. I know I might be wrong. However whenever we talk about CoC, it’s all about sexy image or something like that. It’s not about how to engage 2/3 of world population. Well, with the exception of the “white” part, I actually mostly agree with this (ignoring the status of minorities, which are common in the advanced world). However, I would also point out that women, globally, are 51% of the population. Why *not* make them feel safer? But if the argument is essentially, “we’re not making better for everyone, then what’s the point of doing it for some” then I reject that. Because again, this is merely a step, and every journey requires many steps. So my question to you is this: if a CoC is insufficient for building a globally diverse community (which I agree it is), in what way is it actively harmful to that cause? Would *not* having a CoC further the goals of creating a better community? If so, how? Darrell ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Membership (was Re: [Board] motions from June 18 meeting - making OSGeo Charter membership more exclusive)
Hi Jeff, What’s the offensive part? I read some teasing statements in Arnulf’s triggering style. And in fact, I think it makes perfect sense that we move to a more regular membership of OSGeo where people even pay a small membership fee to the foundation. Older members that loose interest in OSGeo, change their lives, do other things, will smoothly leave OSGeo while new ones can quickly join and come to action. Even if they are not yet well known within OSGeo. Cheers, Jeroen On 24 jun. 2015, at 20:20, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: Hi Arnulf, I don't see the need to become offensive to make your point. Since you mention a do-ocracy, and you have pointed out clearly what you believe must and must not happen, are you willing to champion the changes that you feel are needed? We are, as always, hiring champions. Yours, -jeff On 2015-06-24 2:28 PM, Seven (aka Arnulf) wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 22.06.2015 21:49, Jorge Sanz wrote: 2015-06-22 21:14 GMT+02:00 Vasile Craciunescu vas...@geo-spatial.org: Sure, actually I was about to ask the board if such a survey make sense before the elections and then to shape up the questions together. Looking at recent discussions, it makes a lot of sense and it's great that we finally start using this to get our CMs opinions in an organized manner. Thanks Vasile for putting the wheel on moving. Folks, now things are starting to make sense. What we really need is a regular OSGeo membership that can be polled and asked and that can vote. It should not be tied to an annual election and certainly should not be tied to a self pollinating Charter Membership. If you go to the roots of the term Charter Member [1] it means those who were there when things started. The founders [2]. We misused this term in the past years to emulate something completely different, namely the representation of a vibrant and growing and caring community of spatially interested IT people. Instead of trying to implement rules and conducts and election thresholds and fearing a hostile take over we should strive to at last put a regular membership in place. It will require us to ask people for some personal information (which we have to keep private) to be able to authenticate them. OSGeo was never really set up to do this kind of adminstrivia which is why we shied away and tried to misuse the Charter Member role for this purpose. To create something that might resemble a somewhat democratic election. They are not ever. We are self pollinating from an arbitrary initial group. With the number of Charter Members growing there will be more and more people who don't know each other and will likely never meet in person. Charter Member is simply the wrong tool for what we are really trying to achieve. Once we have regular membership these issues go away. Then OSGeo will be really open for anybody. Any time, not just once a year and not for a limited number of people only. Then we can have real elections and polls that make sense. People who excel through their commitment, knowledge and initiative will be elected into the board [3]. Those who care about their membership will elect the board, not some dreary old Charter Members from a decade ago (no offense meant, haha). While we are at it we could even ask for a low annual membership fee (remember Paul suggesting the Burger Index to find a somewhat fair global price tag?). This would make authentication a lot easier and demonstrate some kind of commitment from the new member. Can you picture hundreds of people becoming regular members, giving personal information and transfer (even some small amount of) money just to take over OSGeo? Come off it. Apart from this there is a Charter. It is the DNA of OSGeo and I see no reason why it should be fundamentally changed. There will be more amendments and bylaws and in dog's name even a CoCk. But there will be no fundamental changing of the Charter (support Open Source Geospatial, bla, bla). This is why it is a charter. It has been written down on paper to be there for everybody to read. Not to change it. Oh, by the way - where is our Charter? My guess is we don't even have one. All we have is this: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Bylaws Have fun, Arnulf [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter [2] http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Charter_Members [3] http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Do-ocracy - -- Exploring Boredom http://arnulf.us ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Membership (was Re: [Board] motions from June 18 meeting - making OSGeo Charter membership more exclusive)
Hi Arnulf, I don't see the need to become offensive to make your point. Since you mention a do-ocracy, and you have pointed out clearly what you believe must and must not happen, are you willing to champion the changes that you feel are needed? We are, as always, hiring champions. Yours, -jeff On 2015-06-24 2:28 PM, Seven (aka Arnulf) wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 22.06.2015 21:49, Jorge Sanz wrote: 2015-06-22 21:14 GMT+02:00 Vasile Craciunescu vas...@geo-spatial.org: Sure, actually I was about to ask the board if such a survey make sense before the elections and then to shape up the questions together. Looking at recent discussions, it makes a lot of sense and it's great that we finally start using this to get our CMs opinions in an organized manner. Thanks Vasile for putting the wheel on moving. Folks, now things are starting to make sense. What we really need is a regular OSGeo membership that can be polled and asked and that can vote. It should not be tied to an annual election and certainly should not be tied to a self pollinating Charter Membership. If you go to the roots of the term Charter Member [1] it means those who were there when things started. The founders [2]. We misused this term in the past years to emulate something completely different, namely the representation of a vibrant and growing and caring community of spatially interested IT people. Instead of trying to implement rules and conducts and election thresholds and fearing a hostile take over we should strive to at last put a regular membership in place. It will require us to ask people for some personal information (which we have to keep private) to be able to authenticate them. OSGeo was never really set up to do this kind of adminstrivia which is why we shied away and tried to misuse the Charter Member role for this purpose. To create something that might resemble a somewhat democratic election. They are not ever. We are self pollinating from an arbitrary initial group. With the number of Charter Members growing there will be more and more people who don't know each other and will likely never meet in person. Charter Member is simply the wrong tool for what we are really trying to achieve. Once we have regular membership these issues go away. Then OSGeo will be really open for anybody. Any time, not just once a year and not for a limited number of people only. Then we can have real elections and polls that make sense. People who excel through their commitment, knowledge and initiative will be elected into the board [3]. Those who care about their membership will elect the board, not some dreary old Charter Members from a decade ago (no offense meant, haha). While we are at it we could even ask for a low annual membership fee (remember Paul suggesting the Burger Index to find a somewhat fair global price tag?). This would make authentication a lot easier and demonstrate some kind of commitment from the new member. Can you picture hundreds of people becoming regular members, giving personal information and transfer (even some small amount of) money just to take over OSGeo? Come off it. Apart from this there is a Charter. It is the DNA of OSGeo and I see no reason why it should be fundamentally changed. There will be more amendments and bylaws and in dog's name even a CoCk. But there will be no fundamental changing of the Charter (support Open Source Geospatial, bla, bla). This is why it is a charter. It has been written down on paper to be there for everybody to read. Not to change it. Oh, by the way - where is our Charter? My guess is we don't even have one. All we have is this: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Bylaws Have fun, Arnulf [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter [2] http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Charter_Members [3] http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Do-ocracy - -- Exploring Boredom http://arnulf.us ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Membership (was Re: [Board] motions from June 18 meeting - making OSGeo Charter membership more exclusive)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 22.06.2015 21:49, Jorge Sanz wrote: 2015-06-22 21:14 GMT+02:00 Vasile Craciunescu vas...@geo-spatial.org: Sure, actually I was about to ask the board if such a survey make sense before the elections and then to shape up the questions together. Looking at recent discussions, it makes a lot of sense and it's great that we finally start using this to get our CMs opinions in an organized manner. Thanks Vasile for putting the wheel on moving. Folks, now things are starting to make sense. What we really need is a regular OSGeo membership that can be polled and asked and that can vote. It should not be tied to an annual election and certainly should not be tied to a self pollinating Charter Membership. If you go to the roots of the term Charter Member [1] it means those who were there when things started. The founders [2]. We misused this term in the past years to emulate something completely different, namely the representation of a vibrant and growing and caring community of spatially interested IT people. Instead of trying to implement rules and conducts and election thresholds and fearing a hostile take over we should strive to at last put a regular membership in place. It will require us to ask people for some personal information (which we have to keep private) to be able to authenticate them. OSGeo was never really set up to do this kind of adminstrivia which is why we shied away and tried to misuse the Charter Member role for this purpose. To create something that might resemble a somewhat democratic election. They are not ever. We are self pollinating from an arbitrary initial group. With the number of Charter Members growing there will be more and more people who don't know each other and will likely never meet in person. Charter Member is simply the wrong tool for what we are really trying to achieve. Once we have regular membership these issues go away. Then OSGeo will be really open for anybody. Any time, not just once a year and not for a limited number of people only. Then we can have real elections and polls that make sense. People who excel through their commitment, knowledge and initiative will be elected into the board [3]. Those who care about their membership will elect the board, not some dreary old Charter Members from a decade ago (no offense meant, haha). While we are at it we could even ask for a low annual membership fee (remember Paul suggesting the Burger Index to find a somewhat fair global price tag?). This would make authentication a lot easier and demonstrate some kind of commitment from the new member. Can you picture hundreds of people becoming regular members, giving personal information and transfer (even some small amount of) money just to take over OSGeo? Come off it. Apart from this there is a Charter. It is the DNA of OSGeo and I see no reason why it should be fundamentally changed. There will be more amendments and bylaws and in dog's name even a CoCk. But there will be no fundamental changing of the Charter (support Open Source Geospatial, bla, bla). This is why it is a charter. It has been written down on paper to be there for everybody to read. Not to change it. Oh, by the way - where is our Charter? My guess is we don't even have one. All we have is this: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Bylaws Have fun, Arnulf [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter [2] http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Charter_Members [3] http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Do-ocracy - -- Exploring Boredom http://arnulf.us -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlWK6MUACgkQXmFKW+BJ1b0+1ACfaxNpZKoKWtgZxGKi1K5FAixg iTgAn1F2P8IwuCMRhlvvv1q///v0GxUw =AgUZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct Implementation Plan Was: Code of Conduct in Real Case
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:27 AM, Bart van den Eijnden bart...@osgis.nl wrote: Hey Jeff, if you truly feel this way, please put forward a motion on the next board meeting. This needs to be decided by the board as a whole I guess. Personally I’m not in favour of destroying all that good work, but I also understand the need to move forward. Where are those discussions happening right now? Best regards, Bart At State of the Map US in New York there was a BoF on CoC next steps and implementation. Some of the results of that are on the wiki and continuing there. The direction may be to form an OSGeo Code of Conduct Committee which would also have an email list. It is still being sorted out. I agree with Bart, that all this work should not be discarded but supported and refined into something that works. Arbitrary deadlines may or may not be helpful for that process and I took Jeff's comment as at least half joke or at least not a real deadline. In the worst case, I see the appropriate action to be to add a note to the CoC that it is aspirational as there is no process to report or respond to reports and that help is needed to develop that. I don't see repealing or replacing the CoC as an appropriate action. On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 7:46 AM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: Hi Kate, I came up with a 1st September deadline in my head because I don't want the FOSS4G event to come along without some sort of way to handle reports. We can ignore the deadline, but I wanted to let everyone know that a process is really needed, besides text on a webpage. You and I and others were part of these offline implementation plan discussions, which were great, but I think it stalled when selecting the name of the committee. FOSS4G 2015 was bid without a CoC and was not part of the contract when signed. Independently of the Conference Committee and Board, the 2015 LOC adopted a CoC, http://2015.foss4g.org/about/codeofconduct/ complete with contact information. Sanghee, while OSGeo sorts out the details of CoC reporting and implementation, you and the LOC have a conference to run. The LOC adopted a CoC and that is great. I suggest that the LOC stick with that and make plans to implement it. The LOC could select 3-5 people who are representative of the LOC and probable attendees to respond to CoC reports. Ideally those people are reasonable and have some skills or experience dealing with difficult situations and work well with people. This group of people should decide on how to implement the CoC (practicing on a list of hypothetical issues can be very helpful thought exercise) and inform the rest of the LOC and train volunteers where to direct issues. This group of people could seek additional resources through either OSGeo or other venues. In the case of your slides, obviously you should not be involved in deciding any action (if you are in the group that will implement the CoC) and you and Charlie appear to have settled things between yourselves, although in a public manner. Maybe what is best is if we move those private discussions to here, on this list. I do notice now that Camille has been recently adding to the initial wiki page for the possible committee: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/CodeOfConduct_Committee Bart, this is currently probably the best place to continue. As noted in offline discussions, we can always create a new wiki page if we need to rename the committee. -jeff On 2015-06-24 11:21 AM, Kate Chapman wrote: Hi Jeff, I thought this comment deserved its own discussion. While I agree that not having an implementation plan for the Code of Conduct is not acceptable I view it as just as unacceptable to switch to a diversity statement. When I registered for FOSS4G last week it was with the understanding that OSGEO has adopted a Code of Conduct. If this is simply switched to a diversity statement I will not be attending FOSS4G. I am not the only women I know that would feel the same way. Kate, thanks for bringing this issue out. I mostly took Jeff's statements as hyperbole intended to move the process forward and ignored it. But yes, it is serious, the solution to the problem of reports is not to remove the ability to make reports but to build the capacity to respond to reports. I do not attend conferences without a Code of Conduct and some companies do not sponsor conferences without a Code of Conduct. I will assist in the implementation, but I am not leading it. I am willing to volunteer as a contact to assist people at FOSS4G if the implementation plan includes the need for a contact person (which I suspect it would). You've already made great contributions to the work that has been completed. Thanks for that and your willingness to help further. The 2015 LOC and others would be wise to take you up on your offer. Best regards, Eli -Kate On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:03 AM, Jeff McKenna
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct Implementation Plan Was: Code of Conduct in Real Case
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Eli Adam ea...@co.lincoln.or.us wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:27 AM, Bart van den Eijnden bart...@osgis.nl wrote: Hey Jeff, if you truly feel this way, please put forward a motion on the next board meeting. This needs to be decided by the board as a whole I guess. Personally I’m not in favour of destroying all that good work, but I also understand the need to move forward. Where are those discussions happening right now? Best regards, Bart At State of the Map US in New York there was a BoF on CoC next steps and implementation. Some of the results of that are on the wiki and continuing there. The direction may be to form an OSGeo Code of Conduct Committee which would also have an email list. It is still being sorted out. The joys of email threads... see what Kristin already more clearly articulated, https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/conference_dev/2015-June/003055.html I agree with Bart, that all this work should not be discarded but supported and refined into something that works. Arbitrary deadlines may or may not be helpful for that process and I took Jeff's comment as at least half joke or at least not a real deadline. In the worst case, I see the appropriate action to be to add a note to the CoC that it is aspirational as there is no process to report or respond to reports and that help is needed to develop that. I don't see repealing or replacing the CoC as an appropriate action. On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 7:46 AM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: Hi Kate, I came up with a 1st September deadline in my head because I don't want the FOSS4G event to come along without some sort of way to handle reports. We can ignore the deadline, but I wanted to let everyone know that a process is really needed, besides text on a webpage. You and I and others were part of these offline implementation plan discussions, which were great, but I think it stalled when selecting the name of the committee. FOSS4G 2015 was bid without a CoC and was not part of the contract when signed. Independently of the Conference Committee and Board, the 2015 LOC adopted a CoC, http://2015.foss4g.org/about/codeofconduct/ complete with contact information. Sanghee, while OSGeo sorts out the details of CoC reporting and implementation, you and the LOC have a conference to run. The LOC adopted a CoC and that is great. I suggest that the LOC stick with that and make plans to implement it. The LOC could select 3-5 people who are representative of the LOC and probable attendees to respond to CoC reports. Ideally those people are reasonable and have some skills or experience dealing with difficult situations and work well with people. This group of people should decide on how to implement the CoC (practicing on a list of hypothetical issues can be very helpful thought exercise) and inform the rest of the LOC and train volunteers where to direct issues. This group of people could seek additional resources through either OSGeo or other venues. In the case of your slides, obviously you should not be involved in deciding any action (if you are in the group that will implement the CoC) and you and Charlie appear to have settled things between yourselves, although in a public manner. Maybe what is best is if we move those private discussions to here, on this list. I do notice now that Camille has been recently adding to the initial wiki page for the possible committee: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/CodeOfConduct_Committee Bart, this is currently probably the best place to continue. As noted in offline discussions, we can always create a new wiki page if we need to rename the committee. -jeff On 2015-06-24 11:21 AM, Kate Chapman wrote: Hi Jeff, I thought this comment deserved its own discussion. While I agree that not having an implementation plan for the Code of Conduct is not acceptable I view it as just as unacceptable to switch to a diversity statement. When I registered for FOSS4G last week it was with the understanding that OSGEO has adopted a Code of Conduct. If this is simply switched to a diversity statement I will not be attending FOSS4G. I am not the only women I know that would feel the same way. Kate, thanks for bringing this issue out. I mostly took Jeff's statements as hyperbole intended to move the process forward and ignored it. But yes, it is serious, the solution to the problem of reports is not to remove the ability to make reports but to build the capacity to respond to reports. I do not attend conferences without a Code of Conduct and some companies do not sponsor conferences without a Code of Conduct. I will assist in the implementation, but I am not leading it. I am willing to volunteer as a contact to assist people at FOSS4G if the implementation plan includes the need for a contact person (which I suspect it would). You've already made great
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
To get the presentation in balance again, I suggest: 1) add description to the slide with Girls' Generation image (neither I do not know this band) 2) replace back of a woman with back of a man, so that the message remains the same. I volunteer with couple of images of mine, you can grab it from facebook J P.S. ;-) st 24. 6. 2015 v 17:52 odesílatel Kristin Bott bo...@reed.edu napsal: Hi, all -- Including the conference list on this, since I think it's relevant (and I suspect that variations on this conversation are happening in multiple corners). re: implementation plans for the CoC. A group of folks met during State of the Map in NYC earlier this month to talk about what an implementation plan might look like. We are currently drafting language to present to the board to form a CoC committee *as well as *drafting an implementation plan. Jeff, we can most certainly have this done by 1 September 2015. Responding to CoC concerns is not simple -- we're trying to create a structure and a process that will make this as smooth as possible for all involved. If you have any questions / concerns about this, feel free to contact me, off-list or otherwise. cheers - -kristin On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:03 AM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community. I want to point out that having just a Code of Conduct, words, on a website is not enough, there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this. In bold letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct. This is not acceptable. A few good volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great, but, it is still in discussion stage. Without some sort of plan, community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I have no formal way to handle these reports. (Sanghee was nice enough to help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply to all reports) I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity statement. I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to move forward, or not at all. -jeff -- Jeff McKenna President, OSGeo http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Ah! Anecdotes! Let me provide one from my personal experience that’s more relevant. A female friend of mine attending a school *was* offended by the gratuitous insertion of nude pictures in a slide presentation in one of her classes. That school was soon thereafter subjected to an investigation for sexual harassment by the Office of Civil Rights of the US Department of Education, followed by a resolution agreement. Anecdotal cases aside, in the West these sorts of things are generally known to be offensive to many, many women in the wrong context. The right context would certainly include art museums and art classes. But at a GIS conference? Generally speaking, I think potentially offensive items must not only be germane but necessary, and if they aren’t presenters should consider alternatives, especially if they are presenting on behalf of a larger organization. So while the Dali portrait may be germane, I don’t see it as in any way necessary. Sanghee writes “I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture.” But there are many, many other images that could be used instead to emphasize the same thing; they’re all over the place (see, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElUS201fM8 or https://www.vat19.com/item/abraham-lincoln-penny-portrait — you could even make your own, with a geographic basis). Regarding the girl-group picture, Sanghee writes “I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia” — again possibly germane to this point, and perhaps by far the best representation and therefore necessary, but I have never heard of them and the point would be lost on me. A photo of a bowl of kimchi would be more effective in my case :-) At the very least, I agree with Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses when he writes “May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference.” Looks like it was a presentation for the 2014 meeting in Bangkok, where I assume the context was verbalized, but the Web is a different medium. On general principles of effectiveness, I’d recommend putting the context directly into the slides. Otherwise their inclusion does seem gratuitous. — Andy On Jun 24, 2015, at 10:19 AM, Milo van der Linden m...@dogodigi.netmailto:m...@dogodigi.net wrote: Hahaha! I appreciate this. Maybe we need to add some statistics to your political-correctness-o-meter to measure how much of the world population is potentially still on board at the final slide. This will give a clear insight of how many people will come to the event. ;-) On Jun 24, 2015 3:41 PM, Iván Sánchez i...@sanchezortega.esmailto:i...@sanchezortega.es wrote: El Miércoles 24. junio 2015 12.42.40 Charles Schweik escribió: [...] I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think [...] I feel obliged to jump in the thread, because this looks just like a recent case of the limits of joking in Spanish media. Imagine this: Person A makes a joke involving person B who was a victim of a terrorist bombing. Person C throws a tantrum and tells the media I'm sure B finds A's jokes insulting, thus A must resign from his job[1]. Then, person B jumps in and publicly states that she never felt offended by A's jokes at all[2]. [1] http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/06/13/madrid/1434219265_951793.html [2] http://www.larazon.es/opinion/columnistas/mas-fuerte-que-el-odio-AF10047124 In other words: Saying Person A should take this down because I find it offensive is perfectly OK. Saying Person A should take this down because it is possibly potentially offensive to a third party is not OK (and actually erodes the right to freedom of expression). I need to ask for **evidence-based policy** here. There is a big difference between a Dali painting *maybe* turning someone off FOSS4G and a Dali painting *actually* turning someone off FOSS4G. Furthermore, there is such a thing like too much political correctness. I will illustrate *ad absurdum* by turning my own political-correctness-o-meter up to eleven for a second: Sanghee should remove slide 15 because blood sausages are maybe potentially offensive to muslims and vegans. Sanghee should remove slide 17 because the kerning can maybe potentially make the eyes of experience typesetters bleed. Sanghee should remove slides 18 and 19 because they might be potential triggers for agoraphobics. Sanghee should remove slide 22 because it might be potentially insulting to astronomers concerned by light pollution. Sanghee should remove slide 23 because it might be potentially insulting to grammar nazis. I should remove the previous sentence because someone might potentially find nazis offensive. Sanghee should remove slide 25 because it might be potentially insulting to geodesists who know circles don't have a meaning outside of
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Membership (was Re: [Board] motions from June 18 meeting - making OSGeo Charter membership more exclusive)
Less than 48 hours ago Vasile asked for a little more time to summarize the pro's and con's of previous election procedures. Could we allow Vasile a few days more to summarize and share this information with the entire community? Then we have a good starting point, with all relevant information available to the community. Regards, Gert-Jan -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] Namens Jeroen Ticheler Verzonden: woensdag 24 juni 2015 20:37 Aan: Jeff McKenna CC: discuss@lists.osgeo.org Onderwerp: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Membership (was Re: [Board] motions from June 18 meeting - making OSGeo Charter membership more exclusive) Hi Jeff, What’s the offensive part? I read some teasing statements in Arnulf’s triggering style. And in fact, I think it makes perfect sense that we move to a more regular membership of OSGeo where people even pay a small membership fee to the foundation. Older members that loose interest in OSGeo, change their lives, do other things, will smoothly leave OSGeo while new ones can quickly join and come to action. Even if they are not yet well known within OSGeo. Cheers, Jeroen On 24 jun. 2015, at 20:20, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: Hi Arnulf, I don't see the need to become offensive to make your point. Since you mention a do-ocracy, and you have pointed out clearly what you believe must and must not happen, are you willing to champion the changes that you feel are needed? We are, as always, hiring champions. Yours, -jeff On 2015-06-24 2:28 PM, Seven (aka Arnulf) wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 22.06.2015 21:49, Jorge Sanz wrote: 2015-06-22 21:14 GMT+02:00 Vasile Craciunescu vas...@geo-spatial.org: Sure, actually I was about to ask the board if such a survey make sense before the elections and then to shape up the questions together. Looking at recent discussions, it makes a lot of sense and it's great that we finally start using this to get our CMs opinions in an organized manner. Thanks Vasile for putting the wheel on moving. Folks, now things are starting to make sense. What we really need is a regular OSGeo membership that can be polled and asked and that can vote. It should not be tied to an annual election and certainly should not be tied to a self pollinating Charter Membership. If you go to the roots of the term Charter Member [1] it means those who were there when things started. The founders [2]. We misused this term in the past years to emulate something completely different, namely the representation of a vibrant and growing and caring community of spatially interested IT people. Instead of trying to implement rules and conducts and election thresholds and fearing a hostile take over we should strive to at last put a regular membership in place. It will require us to ask people for some personal information (which we have to keep private) to be able to authenticate them. OSGeo was never really set up to do this kind of adminstrivia which is why we shied away and tried to misuse the Charter Member role for this purpose. To create something that might resemble a somewhat democratic election. They are not ever. We are self pollinating from an arbitrary initial group. With the number of Charter Members growing there will be more and more people who don't know each other and will likely never meet in person. Charter Member is simply the wrong tool for what we are really trying to achieve. Once we have regular membership these issues go away. Then OSGeo will be really open for anybody. Any time, not just once a year and not for a limited number of people only. Then we can have real elections and polls that make sense. People who excel through their commitment, knowledge and initiative will be elected into the board [3]. Those who care about their membership will elect the board, not some dreary old Charter Members from a decade ago (no offense meant, haha). While we are at it we could even ask for a low annual membership fee (remember Paul suggesting the Burger Index to find a somewhat fair global price tag?). This would make authentication a lot easier and demonstrate some kind of commitment from the new member. Can you picture hundreds of people becoming regular members, giving personal information and transfer (even some small amount of) money just to take over OSGeo? Come off it. Apart from this there is a Charter. It is the DNA of OSGeo and I see no reason why it should be fundamentally changed. There will be more amendments and bylaws and in dog's name even a CoCk. But there will be no fundamental changing of the Charter (support Open Source Geospatial, bla, bla). This is why it is a charter. It has been written down on paper to be there for everybody to read. Not to change it. Oh, by the way - where
