Re: [DNG] Speak now, or forever hold your peace
Am 2018-10-24 00:58, schrieb Steve Litt: I'm about to start adapting runscripts to Devuan ASCII. Many/most daemons do log messages themselves, but for the ones that don't, I'll be using logger to capture stdout and stderr and put them in the logs. If anybody has an objection to this, speak now or forever hold your peace. One wish: please use /bin/sh (dash) for the shell, don't use bash. Bash has a lot more overhead because it is optimized for interactive usage. Many developers don't mind about that and always use bash, even for simple start scripts were they don't need it. Jochen ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] CD-ROM missing valid 'Release' file on devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_dvd-1.iso
Using the devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_dvd-1.iso image from a USB stick I consistently get the error: [!] Detect and mount CD-ROM Error reading Release file The CD-ROM does not seem to contain a valid 'Release' file, or that file could not be read correctly. You may try to repeat CD-ROM detection but, even if it does succeed the second time, you may experience problems in the installation. If it's any clue, the same error also occurs on the devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_cd-1.iso image as well as the Debian-based 2018-06-27-rpd-x86-stretch.iso image for Raspbian. So the problem may be upstream. /Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Speak now, or forever hold your peace
On 10/23/18 3:58 PM, Steve Litt wrote: using logger to capture stdout and stderr Steve, I found this: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/124455/linux-how-to-redirect-stdout-stderr-to-logger What software do I need to install to follow you? Package 'logger' is a bit obscure. Thanks, -- Jimmy Johnson Slackware64 Current - KDE 4.14.38 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9 Registered Linux User #380263 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Who remembers rootkit..
On 10/23/18 11:27 AM, Bastiaan van den Berg wrote: Is there any log of the actual issue? -- buZz I made a post with the log last night, but it's now missing, gone, caput, not even in my sent folder or my draft folder.. Here's the log: [ 213.706282] IPv6: ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): eth0: link is not ready [ 213.994776] e1000e: eth0 NIC Link is Down [ 214.238328] IPv6: ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): eth0: link is not ready [ 215.912089] e1000e: eth0 NIC Link is Up 100 Mbps Full Duplex, Flow Control: Rx/Tx [ 215.912095] e1000e :00:19.0 eth0: 10/100 speed: disabling TSO [ 215.912130] IPv6: ADDRCONF(NETDEV_CHANGE): eth0: link becomes ready GLib-CRITICAL: Source ID 123 was not found when attempting to remove it What you see is I have brought eth0 down, when it gets to disabling TSO is where the kernel has now bound its self to the kernel via the intel driver e1000e and is trying to get HTTP, my system is using a controversial driver e1000e and it's been pointed out by both Linus and lwn.net where they prefer using the older e1000 but your redhat system will choose the e1000e over the e1000. I see the whole redhat system as being controversial myself, and people you think are trying to help, are just seeking info to make things more obscure, they don't want you to see this kind of stuff or people to talk about this kind of stuff. -- Jimmy Johnson Slackware64 Current - KDE 4.14.38 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9 Registered Linux User #380263 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Who remembers rootkit..
On 10/23/18 2:19 PM, eric wrote: On 10/23/18 9:24 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 10/21/18 2:13 PM, eric wrote: On 10/21/18 11:54 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 10/21/18 6:24 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 The smart tv has wifi, like all this smart stuff we have today, if First of all it was the Intel system that was giving me the problem, it's now a file server, it's using Trinity desktop on ASCII, the application is 'ksystemlog', and that laptop has 8 systems installed all some kind of KDE and somebody mentioned DRM, I don't know about that, but the behavior was unacceptable, I pulled that laptop and replaced it with another that is not Intel and my system seems normal now even while running the plasma5-desktop, so the problem was intel, driver, firmware, microcode, I don't know, still testing, always testing. Old stable systems like Ubuntu 14.4 + KDE4, Wheezy + KDE4, Devuan Jessie + KDE4 don't seem to have the problem with the Intel HDMI but none of them use kernel version 4.XXX, they are version 2 or 3. All those systems and more are installed on the Intel laptop. Thank you for the information. I downloaded ksystemlog and it is a nice graphical application for viewing many different logs. I think all the computers I work with now are all intel based. I don't run any servers and just support mine and my extended family's computers of whom I have convinced to run GNU/Linux on. My desktop computer uses HDMI to connect to the monitor and I use HDMI on my laptop when using it for presentations. Now have something more to look at to see what is going on "behind the curtain" even though I am sure I will not understand most of it and have to use web searches for messages that look interesting. Thank you, Eric I don't think you will see the audio/video blackout problem with a regular tv, but you may, I have that setup too but not using intel. What I see in the log you should still see, I think anybody using intel will see strange system log just by bringing down eth0 while having no wifi connected, you may have to remark-out hot-plug in /etc/network/interfaces or the device may reconnect whenever you disconnect. What anybody should see when they bring down eth0 is a attempt for the kernel to bring the internet connection back up and will probably succeed, maybe your firewall will stop it from getting outside, maybe not, leave the log open overnight while eth0 is disconnected and you sleep for more reading pleasure. -- Jimmy Johnson Slackware64 Current - KDE 4.14.38 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9 Registered Linux User #380263 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Who remembers rootkit..
On 10/23/18 2:19 PM, eric wrote: On 10/23/18 9:24 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 10/21/18 2:13 PM, eric wrote: On 10/21/18 11:54 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 10/21/18 6:24 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 The smart tv has wifi, like all this smart stuff we have today, if First of all it was the Intel system that was giving me the problem, it's now a file server, it's using Trinity desktop on ASCII, the application is 'ksystemlog', and that laptop has 8 systems installed all some kind of KDE and somebody mentioned DRM, I don't know about that, but the behavior was unacceptable, I pulled that laptop and replaced it with another that is not Intel and my system seems normal now even while running the plasma5-desktop, so the problem was intel, driver, firmware, microcode, I don't know, still testing, always testing. Old stable systems like Ubuntu 14.4 + KDE4, Wheezy + KDE4, Devuan Jessie + KDE4 don't seem to have the problem with the Intel HDMI but none of them use kernel version 4.XXX, they are version 2 or 3. All those systems and more are installed on the Intel laptop. Thank you for the information. I downloaded ksystemlog and it is a nice graphical application for viewing many different logs. I think all the computers I work with now are all intel based. I don't run any servers and just support mine and my extended family's computers of whom I have convinced to run GNU/Linux on. My desktop computer uses HDMI to connect to the monitor and I use HDMI on my laptop when using it for presentations. Now have something more to look at to see what is going on "behind the curtain" even though I am sure I will not understand most of it and have to use web searches for messages that look interesting. Thank you, Eric I don't think you will see the audio/video blackout problem with a regular tv, but you may, I have that setup too but not using intel. What I see in the log you should still see, I think anybody using intel will see strange system log just by bringing down eth0 while having no wifi connected, you may have to remark-out hot-plug in /eth/network/interfaces or the device may reconnect whenever you disconnect. What anybody should see when they bring down eth0 is a attempt for the kernel to bring the internet connection back up and will probably succeed, maybe your firewall will stop it from getting outside, maybe not, leave the log open overnight while eth0 is disconnected and you sleep for more reading pleasure. -- Jimmy Johnson Slackware64 Current - KDE 4.14.38 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9 Registered Linux User #380263 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Speak now, or forever hold your peace
Hi all, I'm about to start adapting runscripts to Devuan ASCII. Many/most daemons do log messages themselves, but for the ones that don't, I'll be using logger to capture stdout and stderr and put them in the logs. If anybody has an objection to this, speak now or forever hold your peace. SteveT Steve Litt September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Who remembers rootkit..
On 10/23/18 9:24 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 10/21/18 2:13 PM, eric wrote: On 10/21/18 11:54 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 10/21/18 6:24 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 The smart tv has wifi, like all this smart stuff we have today, if First of all it was the Intel system that was giving me the problem, it's now a file server, it's using Trinity desktop on ASCII, the application is 'ksystemlog', and that laptop has 8 systems installed all some kind of KDE and somebody mentioned DRM, I don't know about that, but the behavior was unacceptable, I pulled that laptop and replaced it with another that is not Intel and my system seems normal now even while running the plasma5-desktop, so the problem was intel, driver, firmware, microcode, I don't know, still testing, always testing. Old stable systems like Ubuntu 14.4 + KDE4, Wheezy + KDE4, Devuan Jessie + KDE4 don't seem to have the problem with the Intel HDMI but none of them use kernel version 4.XXX, they are version 2 or 3. All those systems and more are installed on the Intel laptop. Thank you for the information. I downloaded ksystemlog and it is a nice graphical application for viewing many different logs. I think all the computers I work with now are all intel based. I don't run any servers and just support mine and my extended family's computers of whom I have convinced to run GNU/Linux on. My desktop computer uses HDMI to connect to the monitor and I use HDMI on my laptop when using it for presentations. Now have something more to look at to see what is going on "behind the curtain" even though I am sure I will not understand most of it and have to use web searches for messages that look interesting. Thank you, Eric ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 11:18:39PM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 19:07:36 +0200, Didier wrote in message > <826ba68a-6289-d047-7e74-d970996d2...@in2p3.fr>: > > > Le 21/10/2018 à 19:01, Didier Kryn a écrit : > > > I'm not an expert, but it seems to me the answer is in inittab; > > > the following line invokes the daemon which launches all the > > > scripts: > > > > > > si::sysinit:/etc/init.d/rcS > > > > > > Well, there is also the following lines: > > > > l0:0:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 0 > > l1:1:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 1 > > l2:2:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 2 > > l3:3:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 3 > > l4:4:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 4 > > l5:5:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 5 > > l6:6:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 6 > > ..how many "runlevels" _can_ we add here? Can we name them freely? If you can find it, the manpage for the sysvinit-version of the init command had good explanations for this. If not, here is what I remember from when I mucked about with it a few years ago. There is nothing in sysvinit inherently preventing use of runlevels up to 9. The init 6 = reboot convention is just that: a convention, probably from the Unix days (those older and more experienced than I: feel free to correct me if this is wrong). However, the initscript rat's nest makes this convention difficult to change without digging into /etc/rc[0-6].d/, /etc/inittab and the initscript files included in any daemon package. As such, altering it might be an interesting learning experience but is probably dangerous on a box used for anything other than tinkering. Another detail that stuck out for me is that sysvinit also has runlevels A, B and C. These are "overlays" (so to speak) in that starting one of them doesn't end the daemons from the previous runlevel. My recollections here are a bit hazy and possibly not entirely reliable, since this behaviour might instead simply be due to the absence of /etc/rc[A-C].d/ directories. Hope this helps, Antoine P.S. turns out the sysvinit (8)init manpage is still available at debian.org: https://manpages.debian.org/jessie/sysvinit-core/inittab.5.en.html -- Security is the art of making nothing happen. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Who remembers rootkit..
Is there any log of the actual issue? -- buZz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:00:08 +0200 Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 23/10/2018 à 15:45, Stephan Seitz a écrit : > > On Di, Okt 23, 2018 at 08:16:51 -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 08:27:25PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > >>> Make that: "there *was* a command, chkconfig:" > >>> > >>> It's no longer present in Debian stable (stretch) and later. You > >>> can still find it in oldstable (jessie) though. See > >>> > >>> https://packages.debian.org/search?arch=any=contents=chkconfig > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> # Searching in unstable (sid) lists the command for a small > >>> subset of # architectures but a chkconfig package does not seem > >>> to exist ... > >> Why would this have been removed? Is it no longer wanted for > >> systemd users? Or is there some other, perhaps legitimately > >> technical, reason for its removal? > > > > As far as I know chkconfig was never a Debian tool. I only know it > > from RPM distros. Maybe someone tried to include chkconfig in > > Debian, but gave up later. Or it never really worked. > > I think this is desired only if you want to enable both rc init > scripts and runit scripts on the same system, which, in my opinion is > not a sane configuration. > I think they should be made mutually > exclusive. Vim or Emacs. You can only have one. Perl, Python, Ruby or Lua. You can only have one. Mutt or Thunderbird. You can only have one. Sysvinit, runit, s6, perp or Epoch. You can only have one. I showed in my Manjaro Experiments document (http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/init/manjaro_experiments.htm) that the existence of multiple inits or supervisors is a good thing. If one breaks, you can use the other as a diagnostic known good replacement. If you're an init system documenter, all can coexist, with the chosen one determined by a kernel line. Or even a config file. For the tire kicker wanting to compare inits and/or supervisors, having multiple coexisting inits/supervisors is a must. I think it's poetteristic for one init to sabotage another by removing its package. SteveT Steve Litt September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Who remembers rootkit..
On 10/21/18 11:54 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 10/21/18 6:24 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 21/10/18 21:10, Jimmy Johnson wrote: I first noticed it while testing Stretch, I run a multimedia setup no problem with Jessie without systemd or wheezy, I was running a intel laptop HDMI to a big screen smart tv, the screen would go black and the audio would stop, I'm not the only on who has seen the problem as it's been mentioned on the Debian mailing list. Since then I have ran it on other systems, like Devuan, PCLinuxOS and Slackware too and have seen the the problem in real time while looking at the system log and I would see the kernel making calls to get a outside HTTP, I bring down my net connection and the kernel calls avahi daemon to bring it back up and make a HTTP connection, I stop avahi daemon and the kernel binds with the NIC and tries to get outside HTTP, that's where my firewall stops it. But the kernel keeps trying over and over and over endlessly to get outside HTTP and all this makes it imposable to watch my movie. Using the Intel laptop was convenient, but I got the idea to try my AMD nvidia desktop, I got the same kernel activity but no interference with audio/video, I'm now using ATI Radeon laptop, works the same as nvidia or maybe it's because their both AMD as I don't have nvidia or ATI running on a intel system that I can test. Questions? Is the cable perhaps 1.4 type with built-in Ethernet? Wonder if that might have something to do with it too. The SmartTV might be doing the communication attempts. Maybe it is trying to tattle on you for using video that it /thinks/ is breaking digital rights.. maybe something else entirely. If the kernel is making the HTTP calls, it might be under direction of the video driver that is able to network with the screen via the HDMI cable. Cheers The smart tv has wifi, like all this smart stuff we have today, if the HDMI cable has internet, I doubt it, just audio and video. Just so everybody knows the laptop for multimedia, amd radeon has a new from scratch install of ASCII, I've let it set overnight with a movie on pause and the log is open and running live and while I've had the net down the log says:eth0 link down, receive packet failed, dhclent failed to send 300 byte long packet over fallback interface(what fallback interface?), and last is send_packet: please consult README file regarding broadcast address. That was the last log, since I brought the net down and it's much, much quieter and seems to be behaving its self and my audio/video seem to be perfect. I have a computer to repair, a laptop with no power, as I suffer spine & nerve damage & constant pain it maybe a all day job. So I will be checking comments when I can. But for ASCII and it seems to be behaving its self, that is great, with the intel its behavior was crazy. Thanks, The whole Intel HDMI Laptop thing I don't think I would have ever seen if not using the HDMI connected to a smart tv, but I put the blame on the Intel system because the kernel activity continue even while HDMI is not in use. Apparently there is some controversy over intel driver e1000 or using e1000e noted by both lwn.net and Linus, apparently e1000e is used even when not needed or wanted. -- Jimmy Johnson Slackware64 Current - KDE 4.14.38 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9 Registered Linux User #380263 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:00:08 +0200 Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 23/10/2018 à 15:45, Stephan Seitz a écrit : > > On Di, Okt 23, 2018 at 08:16:51 -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 08:27:25PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > >>> Make that: "there *was* a command, chkconfig:" > >>> > >>> It's no longer present in Debian stable (stretch) and later. You > >>> can still find it in oldstable (jessie) though. See > >>> > >>> https://packages.debian.org/search?arch=any=contents=chkconfig > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> # Searching in unstable (sid) lists the command for a small > >>> subset of # architectures but a chkconfig package does not seem > >>> to exist ... > >> Why would this have been removed? Is it no longer wanted for > >> systemd users? Or is there some other, perhaps legitimately > >> technical, reason for its removal? > > > > As far as I know chkconfig was never a Debian tool. I only know it > > from RPM distros. Maybe someone tried to include chkconfig in > > Debian, but gave up later. Or it never really worked. > > I think this is desired only if you want to enable both rc init > scripts and runit scripts on the same system, which, in my opinion is > not a sane configuration. "Sane configuration." Have you been talking to my psychiatrist again? I was involuntarily committed in 2009 for running daemontools (basically same as runit in this mode of operation) on top of sysvinit (or was it upstart). Student psychiatrists would be brought to my room, to see this guy who added the complexity of daemontools to sysvinit. And furthering my psychosis was the fact that I regularly wrote my own daemons, *which did not background themselves*. And I wrote them in Python, as ordinary programs employing a loop, with info and error messages coming out stderr. I wrote my own daemons at the drop of a hat: It was easy. I even had my own cron replacement daemon, littcron, which was easier to deal with than the real cron. I was regularly the case study in the psychiatry school. I finally got out of the mental hospital in 2015. I ran with runit as PID1 *and* daemon supervision, with no sysvinit in sight. I temporarily moved my home grown daemons to fire off of cron instead of running as daemons. They declared me cured and let me out. Didier, if you happen to run into my psychiatrist again, please don't tell him I'm still writing my own daemons in Python. Whatever you do, please don't let him know I still use littcron. And for gosh sakes, please, please, please don't tell him about my reminder_check daemon, which pops up a GUI warning box when some other daemons begin to malfunction. runsvdir -P /run/runit/runsvdir/current \_ runsv littcron | \_ /usr/bin/python3 /d/at/python/littcron/littcron.py /d/at/python/littcron/crontab \_ runsv reminder_check \_ /usr/bin/python3 /d/at/python/reminder_check/reminder_check.py Don't try this outside the asylum, folks! Not a sane configuration my aunt's hat! SteveT Steve Litt September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
>> As far as I know chkconfig was never a Debian tool. I only know it >> from RPM distros. Maybe someone tried to include chkconfig in Debian, >> but gave up later. Or it never really worked. I frequently used (and liked) chkconfig because it did work well on Red Hat Distros. I can see that Debian would be an issue as the init scripts use the LSB format which Red Hat did not. Red Hat's scripts execute in the order they list in. https://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts 'Required' vs 'Should' vs 'Default' vs 'X-Start-Before' vx 'X-Interactive' need to be compared against each other in some sensible and predictably consistent manner, it just didn't work. I frequently came across issues with LSB format init script unreliable reordering whenever a service is added or deleted, causing services to fail at boot or change of runlevel. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 12:32:54PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: [cut] > > Ahh, the preceding explains why G. Pape says runit level logs are > required on *some* daemons, but not others. If the daemon already > performs meaningful syslog() calls, there's no reason for further > logging. The logger program is needed only for those daemons not > already doing syslog() calls. The set of programs not doing syslog > calls includes all my home-grown daemons: Being a longtime daemontools > guy, I just write warnings and errors to stderr and know > daemontools/runit/s6/perp will get them into the logs. > That's was exactly the aim of my previous question :) > So Didier: I amend my question to this: Is logger the best log > mechanism to get stderr into the logs, for daemons not doing their own > syslog() calls? > > Which means on a lot of services don't get runit level logs at all. > Which matches my Void Linux system, where 10 out of 71 daemons use a > log. But some of those are pretty important: > > [root@mydesk sv]# ls -1dF */log > docker/log/ > mysqld/log/ > ndhc/log/ > nmbd/log/ > ntpd/log/ > openntpd/log/ > postgresql/log/ > smbd/log/ > sndiod/log/ > socklog-unix/log/ > [root@mydesk sv]# > The fact that some daemons do not use a custom log does not mean that they are not logging to syslog (notable examples include cron, dhclient, sshd, and many other). If a daemon is not doing its syslog proper calls, redirecting the stdout and stderr to logger could make sense (but a deamon is normally expected to close stdout and stderr as soon as it is spawned, and use syslog() calls for logging...). My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 15:45:19 +0200 Stephan Seitz wrote: > On Di, Okt 23, 2018 at 08:16:51 -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 08:27:25PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > >> Make that: "there *was* a command, chkconfig:" > >> > >> It's no longer present in Debian stable (stretch) and later. You > >> can still find it in oldstable (jessie) though. See > >> > >> > >> https://packages.debian.org/search?arch=any=contents=chkconfig > >> > >> # Searching in unstable (sid) lists the command for a small subset > >> of # architectures but a chkconfig package does not seem to > >> exist ... > >Why would this have been removed? Is it no longer wanted for systemd > >users? Or is there some other, perhaps legitimately technical, > >reason for its removal? > > As far as I know chkconfig was never a Debian tool. I only know it > from RPM distros. Maybe someone tried to include chkconfig in Debian, > but gave up later. Or it never really worked. So what did you use instead? SteveT Steve Litt September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:06:52 +0200 Didier Kryn wrote: > Logger is a way to redirect to syslog one of the output paths of > an application, by the mean of a pipe, or for a script to send such > messages. Logger reads messages and sends them by invoking the > syslog() function. If you force a daemon to send its messages through > stderr and redirect this stderr to the input of logger, you just add > complexity and overhead and loose flexibility; better let the daemon > invoke syslog() right away. Ahh, the preceding explains why G. Pape says runit level logs are required on *some* daemons, but not others. If the daemon already performs meaningful syslog() calls, there's no reason for further logging. The logger program is needed only for those daemons not already doing syslog() calls. The set of programs not doing syslog calls includes all my home-grown daemons: Being a longtime daemontools guy, I just write warnings and errors to stderr and know daemontools/runit/s6/perp will get them into the logs. So Didier: I amend my question to this: Is logger the best log mechanism to get stderr into the logs, for daemons not doing their own syslog() calls? Which means on a lot of services don't get runit level logs at all. Which matches my Void Linux system, where 10 out of 71 daemons use a log. But some of those are pretty important: [root@mydesk sv]# ls -1dF */log docker/log/ mysqld/log/ ndhc/log/ nmbd/log/ ntpd/log/ openntpd/log/ postgresql/log/ smbd/log/ sndiod/log/ socklog-unix/log/ [root@mydesk sv]# Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Who remembers rootkit..
On 10/21/18 2:13 PM, eric wrote: On 10/21/18 11:54 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 10/21/18 6:24 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 The smart tv has wifi, like all this smart stuff we have today, if the HDMI cable has internet, I doubt it, just audio and video. Just so everybody knows the laptop for multimedia, amd radeon has a new from scratch install of ASCII, I've let it set overnight with a movie on pause and the log is open and running live and while I've had the net down the log says:eth0 link down, receive packet failed, dhclent failed to send 300 byte long packet over fallback interface(what fallback interface?), and last is send_packet: please consult README file regarding broadcast address. That was the last log, since I brought the net down and it's much, much quieter and seems to be behaving its self and my audio/video seem to be perfect. I have a computer to repair, a laptop with no power, as I suffer spine & nerve damage & constant pain it maybe a all day job. So I will be checking comments when I can. But for ASCII and it seems to be behaving its self, that is great, with the intel its behavior was crazy. Thanks, Hello Mr. Jimmy Johnson, I am just a casual GNU/Linux user who is very much interested in the Devuan project and I know next to nothing about networking and firewalls. I just use what the default is on installation. I just wanted to ask what log you are viewing and the method you are using to view the log file. I would like to check what kind of messages are being generated on my system. Thank you, Eric First of all it was the Intel system that was giving me the problem, it's now a file server, it's using Trinity desktop on ASCII, the application is 'ksystemlog', and that laptop has 8 systems installed all some kind of KDE and somebody mentioned DRM, I don't know about that, but the behavior was unacceptable, I pulled that laptop and replaced it with another that is not Intel and my system seems normal now even while running the plasma5-desktop, so the problem was intel, driver, firmware, microcode, I don't know, still testing, always testing. Old stable systems like Ubuntu 14.4 + KDE4, Wheezy + KDE4, Devuan Jessie + KDE4 don't seem to have the problem with the Intel HDMI but none of them use kernel version 4.XXX, they are version 2 or 3. All those systems and more are installed on the Intel laptop. The intel laptop log after bringing eth0 down, in this case it seems to be using(Binding with) e1000e(The NIC) to get outside, unless I'm reading this wrong, this is the end of the log: [ 213.706282] IPv6: ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): eth0: link is not ready [ 213.994776] e1000e: eth0 NIC Link is Down [ 214.238328] IPv6: ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): eth0: link is not ready [ 215.912089] e1000e: eth0 NIC Link is Up 100 Mbps Full Duplex, Flow Control: Rx/Tx [ 215.912095] e1000e :00:19.0 eth0: 10/100 speed: disabling TSO(Something to do with ethtool in the intel nic driver, the kernel is now using the NIC driver(ethtool) to get HTTP.) [ 215.912130] IPv6: ADDRCONF(NETDEV_CHANGE): eth0: link becomes ready GLib-CRITICAL: Source ID 123 was not found when attempting to remove it --- Worth noting, I've seen the kernel also use avahi-daemon, but the avahi-daemon is not installed on my ASCII, I've also removed avahi-autopid, but I've also stopped avahi-daemon in the past and that's when the kernel did bind with the NIC and ask for a HTTP, and that's what it seems to be doing now, I expect to see bugs up stream, but the kernel binding with my NIC. Why? When I bring eth0 down that means I don't want a internet connection and I expect that choice to honored. Am I wrong? cron was making a lot of noise and I don't use it so I stopped cron in crontab, I don't think I have a reason to run cron? and HDMI is no longer in use, just using laptop speakers and analog output, but the strange kernel behavior still seems to persist. Also worth noting, you used to have to turn things on to get service, now it seems the opposite is the rule, why so much automation. -- Jimmy Johnson Slackware64 Current - KDE 4.14.38 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9 Registered Linux User #380263 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
On 2018年10月23日 18:44:25 JST, Didier Kryn wrote: >Le 23/10/2018 à 11:21, Stephan Seitz a écrit : >> On Di, Okt 23, 2018 at 11:06:52 +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: >>> syslog() is a member of the C library which allows any >>> application to send messages to the system logging facility, through > >>> the socket /var/log/syslog and some lock mechanism (probably using a > >>> semaphore) to >> >> I think you mean /dev/log. >> srw-rw-rw- 1 root root 0 Okt 11 16:52 /dev/log >> >> /var/log/syslog is a file written by the log daemon. > > > You're absolutely right. Thanks :-) > > /var/log/syslog is exactly where the syslog daemon (eg rsyslog) >writes its own logs (in the default configuration). > > thanks everybody for all the comments ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
On 10/23/18 4:27 AM, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: Hi, Bruce Ferrell writes: [...] If I understand the original question "how to I get sysV init to not start a process present in the init system", There is a command, chkconfig: Make that: "there *was* a command, chkconfig:" It's no longer present in Debian stable (stretch) and later. You can still find it in oldstable (jessie) though. See https://packages.debian.org/search?arch=any=contents=chkconfig # Searching in unstable (sid) lists the command for a small subset of # architectures but a chkconfig package does not seem to exist ... Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join Well that kind of stinks! Maybe it can be added to the Devuan repo in support of sysV-ness? Back in the mists, I somehow got the idea it was part of the posix specs to have that utility. I must be getting old...er ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
Quoting Stephan Seitz (stse+dev...@fsing.rootsland.net): > As far as I know chkconfig was never a Debian tool. I only know it > from RPM distros. Maybe someone tried to include chkconfig in > Debian, but gave up later. Or it never really worked. It may be of interest that the Red Hat 'chkconfig' was a reimplementation of the SGI Irix tool of the same name. (That's where Red Hat devs got the idea.) The recommended Debian equivalent has always been update-rc.d, although some folks prefer sysv-rc-conf . I'm not sure why chkconfig got dropped in recent (post-jessie) Debian, but it probably has something to do with them favouring systemd's systemctl, instead. chkconfig _was_ a Debian tool in the sense of being available as a supported package from April 2008 until Debian 9 'stretch' came out. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
Le 23/10/2018 à 15:45, Stephan Seitz a écrit : On Di, Okt 23, 2018 at 08:16:51 -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 08:27:25PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: Make that: "there *was* a command, chkconfig:" It's no longer present in Debian stable (stretch) and later. You can still find it in oldstable (jessie) though. See https://packages.debian.org/search?arch=any=contents=chkconfig # Searching in unstable (sid) lists the command for a small subset of # architectures but a chkconfig package does not seem to exist ... Why would this have been removed? Is it no longer wanted for systemd users? Or is there some other, perhaps legitimately technical, reason for its removal? As far as I know chkconfig was never a Debian tool. I only know it from RPM distros. Maybe someone tried to include chkconfig in Debian, but gave up later. Or it never really worked. I think this is desired only if you want to enable both rc init scripts and runit scripts on the same system, which, in my opinion is not a sane configuration. I think they should be made mutually exclusive. rc init scripts do not monitor the daemons, therefore the only reason to have both is if you want to have some daemons monitored (by runit) and some not monitored (launched by an init script). I think it would be better to find a method for runit to not monitor a daemon. For me, runit is apealing because its scripts are simpler. The system daemons almost never crash therefore I don't see the need to monitor them. But, since they never crash, it doesn't harm to monitor them, of course. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
On Di, Okt 23, 2018 at 08:16:51 -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 08:27:25PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: Make that: "there *was* a command, chkconfig:" It's no longer present in Debian stable (stretch) and later. You can still find it in oldstable (jessie) though. See https://packages.debian.org/search?arch=any=contents=chkconfig # Searching in unstable (sid) lists the command for a small subset of # architectures but a chkconfig package does not seem to exist ... Why would this have been removed? Is it no longer wanted for systemd users? Or is there some other, perhaps legitimately technical, reason for its removal? As far as I know chkconfig was never a Debian tool. I only know it from RPM distros. Maybe someone tried to include chkconfig in Debian, but gave up later. Or it never really worked. Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/keys.html | smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 23:10:35 +0200, Miroslav wrote in message <4149ab4f-76e2-f4e5-af96-38bd433dd...@uns.ac.rs>: > On 10/20/2018 04:31 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > >> > >> It's a seniors club, 70-75 at average. Some of them are more-less > >> fluent in (pirated) Window$ -based mouse clicking to browse the > >> Net, email, and office. So my point is to show them that there are > >> free & unrestricted alternatives. As I said I have two machines > >> there, one is wired to a big TV so they who sit in a last row can > >> listen & watch. That one machine is Devuan Jessie 64-bit for now, > >> I installed it just for test as I never used Devuan distro before. > >> However, I am more experienced in Ubuntu, so I want to show them > >> its desktop too. But the idea is not to disconnect/reconnect each > >> machine from the TV to switch different distro, instead I want to > >> run Devuan as a 'proxy' for Ubuntu to appear on TV as a second > >> option. > > > > Why not just dual-boot between Devuan and Ubuntu? > > Dual boot doen't *require* one of the systems to be nonLinux! > > > > Hendrik, both boxes came to the club installed with Window$, and I > have to keep them that way ..easy now, if these has lawful copies of Wintendo installed, you _can_ keep them that way. Now if these are the pirated ones you spoke about, any judge worth his salt will tell you you can _not_ keep them that way, and clarify that wrath of law in your verdict. ..which is why I'm happy to see these 2 boxes came to the club and not to you, and that a judge might believe how hard it is to get the club membership to understand why they need to comply to the license terms under your laws. > (partially) until the club members clearly > show they want to learn something else than that. And the boxes' > features are insufficient for a triple-boot endeavours. Important is > also to show the audience that they always can reboot into their > 'favourite' environment. > > Misko -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 08:27:25PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > Hi, > > Bruce Ferrell writes: > > > [...] > > > > If I understand the original question "how to I get sysV init to not > > start a process present in the init system", There is a command, > > chkconfig: > > Make that: "there *was* a command, chkconfig:" > > It's no longer present in Debian stable (stretch) and later. You can > still find it in oldstable (jessie) though. See > > > https://packages.debian.org/search?arch=any=contents=chkconfig > > # Searching in unstable (sid) lists the command for a small subset of > # architectures but a chkconfig package does not seem to exist ... Why would this have been removed? Is it no longer wanted for systemd users? Or is there some other, perhaps legitimately technical, reason for its removal? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?
Arnt Karlsen writes: > On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 00:05:55 +1100, wirelessd...@gmail.com wrote in > message <6ec111c6-d733-4e15-a944-e2419b63c...@gmail.com>: > >> > >> > For Ubuntu there is Remina or like (if I recall the proper name) >> > but duno what needs for Devuan. >> > >> > Misko >> >> Remains is also available from ascii-backports. > > ..you mean remmina? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remmina > https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=remmina > https://manpages.debian.org/stretch-backports/remmina/remmina.1.en.html FYI, I use remmina occasionally on Devuan Ascii machines running the default Xfce desktop. Accessing a Windows VM over RDP at the office works without a hitch. For access to other Linux boxen you may have to convince their sshd to do X11 forwarding (probably enabled by default) but once that's working you should have no problem showing their desktop on your Devuan machine using Remmina over SSH. Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
Hi, Bruce Ferrell writes: > [...] > > If I understand the original question "how to I get sysV init to not > start a process present in the init system", There is a command, > chkconfig: Make that: "there *was* a command, chkconfig:" It's no longer present in Debian stable (stretch) and later. You can still find it in oldstable (jessie) though. See https://packages.debian.org/search?arch=any=contents=chkconfig # Searching in unstable (sid) lists the command for a small subset of # architectures but a chkconfig package does not seem to exist ... Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
Le 23/10/2018 à 11:21, Stephan Seitz a écrit : On Di, Okt 23, 2018 at 11:06:52 +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: syslog() is a member of the C library which allows any application to send messages to the system logging facility, through the socket /var/log/syslog and some lock mechanism (probably using a semaphore) to I think you mean /dev/log. srw-rw-rw- 1 root root 0 Okt 11 16:52 /dev/log /var/log/syslog is a file written by the log daemon. You're absolutely right. Thanks :-) /var/log/syslog is exactly where the syslog daemon (eg rsyslog) writes its own logs (in the default configuration). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
Le 23/10/2018 à 05:58, mett a écrit : Hi, by the way, what do u think about what is written on that page regarding logging? http://jdebp.eu./FGA/unix-daemon-design-mistakes-to-avoid.html The fan-in/fan-out argument is an issue if you send massive amounts of data to syslog(). In this case, rather use another path to the rsyslog daemon; it can accomodate many GB per day; I haven't hit a limit; but this concerns your own applications; system daemons don't send massive amounts of logs. About the argument on UDP: this concerns the transfer of messages by the local syslog server to a remote syslog server (for the purpose of centralizing the logs). This critic is deprecated, rsyslog had the option of using tcp for many years. And other means are added from time to time. I find the rest of the arguments fallacious. By writing to a file you loose many of the advantages of syslog: filtering based on severity and content (filtering on severity is very usefull for debugging). dispatching to files, remote hosts and/or data-bases. actions based on message contents, such as sending emails and/or invoking custom applications or scripts. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
On Di, Okt 23, 2018 at 11:06:52 +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: syslog() is a member of the C library which allows any application to send messages to the system logging facility, through the socket /var/log/syslog and some lock mechanism (probably using a semaphore) to I think you mean /dev/log. srw-rw-rw- 1 root root 0 Okt 11 16:52 /dev/log /var/log/syslog is a file written by the log daemon. Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/keys.html | smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > syslog() is a member of the C library which allows any > application to send messages to the system logging facility, through > the socket /var/log/syslog and some lock mechanism (probably using a > semaphore) to prevent two applications to write in the same time. > See man syslog. Yeah, I sort of blew that in my explanation, didn't I? ;-> Thanks for stepping in. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
Le 23/10/2018 à 09:23, Steve Litt a écrit : Just to be simple and clear: syslog() is a member of the C library which allows any application to send messages to the system logging facility, through the socket /var/log/syslog and some lock mechanism (probably using a semaphore) to prevent two applications to write in the same time. See man syslog. There is a menagerie of logging daemons which can read these messages and sort and dispatch them to various places (eg syslog-ng and rsyslog) rsyslog has been the default on Debian for many years, before it was replaced by systemd. All daemons provided by Devuan that I kown of send their messages by invoking syslog() and don't need the help of an application like logger to do it. Logger is a way to redirect to syslog one of the output paths of an application, by the mean of a pipe, or for a script to send such messages. Logger reads messages and sends them by invoking the syslog() function. If you force a daemon to send its messages through stderr and redirect this stderr to the input of logger, you just add complexity and overhead and loose flexibility; better let the daemon invoke syslog() right away. Note that syslog servers, like rsyslog, can also be fed by many other paths than the syslog socket, but this is another story. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
On 10/21/18, Alessandro Selli wrote: > I don't think init scripts are considered configuration files, as in > fact the are not. ... > So, I expect an update to overwrite the init script with the update's > version regardless, and to reset the permissions to those set in the > package. All files in /etc are treated as config files in De??in. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 06:49:56 +0200 KatolaZ wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 04:59:16PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > Hi Daniel, > > > > You were so thorough giving facts that I didn't understand your > > answer: Would you recommend using logger to transfer daemon stderr > > (and configurationally stdout) to the log files? > > > > You appeared (to me) to say that logger does per default log to the > > system logger, and (my interpretation but I know little) that system > > logger could be either syslog-ng or rsyslog. If my two > > intrpretations earlier this paragraph are true, I personally would > > draw the conclusion that logger will write the logs regardless of > > whether the computer is set up for syslog-ng, rsyslog, or some > > other log writer, and thus logger would be the best and most widely > > compatible choice. > > > > Do you agree that logger would be the best and most widely > > compatible choice? > > > > I guess I might have missed one of the points here: normally daemons > provide their own way of logging to the system logger (they basically > use the syslog facilities). So which logs are we talking about here? > What shall runit redirect to logger which will in turn redirect to the > system logger? stderr, or both stdout and stderr if the final exec is preceded by exec 2>&1 on an earlier line. SteveT Steve Litt September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
