Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rowland Penny]

On 21/12/15 14:30, Mitt Green wrote:

I've been talking a lot about courtesy in the community.
It is certainly the biggest thing Debian lacks (and
some mates from outside lack it as well, check my post here:
http://www.linux.org/threads/random-thoughts-on-linux-and-open-source-movement.7452/)

I must admit that I *hate* when people use gutter language and insults
in a public mailing list.

Being a NetBSD user for a couple of months I couldn't help but compared:
pretty much all emails there comply with "netiquette".

To John Hughes to end the flamewar completely: people here are going to
remove *any* of remaining systemd dependencies, including libsystemd0.
We don't need systemd. At all. Either it is bad for you or not, you decide.

If some of ye don't want to answer, to "feed the troll" or want to spill
a bunch of dirty words, please don't answer. Insults won't help the project
succeed.

Please respect each other and stay professional.

Mitt
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I am beginning to think this may be aimed squarely at me, if so, then 
come out and say so. I think Mitt may have taken exception to the word 
'moron', gasp, I said it again. Only problem is Mitt, where I come from, 
it means a stupid or foolish person and can anybody argue that John 
Hughes isn't either of those?


People may say that I shouldn't answer his posts, but that would mean, 
if somebody reads the thread, that what he is saying is true, but it isn't.


If this wasn't aimed at me, then sorry for the noise.

Rowland

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rowland Penny]

On 21/12/15 20:01, Mitt Green wrote:

Rowland Penny  wrote:


I am beginning to think this may be aimed squarely at me, if so, then
come out and say so. I think Mitt may have taken exception to the word 'moron' 
[...]

It was addressed to everyone here. You have taken a few chances here
trying to insult John Hughes, John being accused as troll, didn't insult
anyone (at least from what I've read) but used profanity as well.
I say it again, we shouldn't accuse someone being a troll,


If somebody asks the same question over and over again (in different 
ways) then that person is a troll, that is not an insult, it is a fact! 
I haven't insulted anybody, if you think I have, then you need to 
re-think your understanding of English.


i.e. moron: a stupid or foolish person
 Troll: someone who asks the same question over and over again, or 
will not accept an answer, when one is given.


If someone needs help and I can give it, then I am very willing to try 
and help. What I not willing to do, is to put up with someone who is 
just trying to stir things up and the only way to deal with such people 
is to stand up to them. Being wishy-washy with them, will do no good at all.


Rowland


insult them and tell them to go away, answering
questions instead (well, till a reasonable level)‎.


People may say that I shouldn't answer his posts, but that would mean,
if somebody reads the thread, that what he is saying is true, but it isn't.

Everyone is free to post their opinions and no one is going to stop them
from doing that.


Best regards,

Mitt


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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

Rowland Penny  wrote:

>I am beginning to think this may be aimed squarely at me, if so, then 
>come out and say so. I think Mitt may have taken exception to the word 'moron' 
>[...]

It was addressed to everyone here. You have taken a few chances here
trying to insult John Hughes, John being accused as troll, didn't insult
anyone (at least from what I've read) but used profanity as well.
I say it again, we shouldn't accuse someone being a troll,
insult them and tell them to go away, answering
questions instead (well, till a reasonable level)‎.

>People may say that I shouldn't answer his posts, but that would mean,
>if somebody reads the thread, that what he is saying is true, but it isn't.

Everyone is free to post their opinions and no one is going to stop them
from doing that.


Best regards,

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Jaromil]

dear Mitt,

On Mon, 21 Dec 2015, Mitt Green wrote:

> Rowland Penny  wrote:
> 
> >I am beginning to think this may be aimed squarely at me, if so, then
> >come out and say so. I think Mitt may have taken exception to the
> >word 'moron' [...]
> 
> It was addressed to everyone here. You have taken a few chances here
> trying to insult John Hughes, John being accused as troll, didn't
> insult anyone (at least from what I've read) but used profanity as
> well.  I say it again, we shouldn't accuse someone being a troll,
> insult them and tell them to go away, answering questions instead
> (well, till a reasonable level)

I can well relate to your description of netiquette and reference to
the good context that BSD projects often creates for professionals.

Yet please consider you have not been through all what has been going on
here from the beginning - and also consider our time and patience is
very limited and we need to optimize everyone's attention and effort to
get Devuan done. As I wrote already, we are a minority fighting an
asymmetric war by now to keep existing and computing the way we want.

My conclusion after one year of keeping this community together is that
we cannot provide an open space to debate the choice to be in or out of
systemd. That is already provided in many avenues (which are also
heavily curbing any criticism, no matter how educated and documented).

Our project is developing an alternative, not providing space for debate

Please let us know if you ever find out spaces where unbiased debate on
systemd can take place, some people here and among them myself may be
able to contribute then.

ciao




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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

>‎Our project is developing an alternative, not providing space for debate

That's why I'd like to end this discussion.

>Please let us know if you ever find out spaces where unbiased debate on
>systemd can take place, some people here and among them myself may be
>able to contribute then.

Sure. But this will be hard to find (:

Rowland,

I wasn't referring to this particular word. I don't want to blame you.
You've got my message.

I also don't want to establish rules here, and I can't.

Cheers,

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

Mitt Green  writes:
> You miss my point. I am trying to deliver
> the message that it is in my opinion 
> unacceptable for people to use oath and insults in
> public. Doesn't matter in a pub, in a shop,
> in a mailing list, in a class, in a street, whatever.
> It can be acceptable in gangsta rap, in rednecks
> societies, in Louis CK stand-up.

I'm afraid, I don't. I also mostly happen to agree with you save for a
slightly different cultural background, (I hate using myself as an
example but there's no other choice here), namely, I was born in a
small, rural German town. Both of my parents moved there because they
were teachers at the local grammar school and both were themselves
children of people who ended up displaced because of WWII. This meant
that I grew up in an environment where high/ standard German was the
spoken language. Unfortunately, for most other children (and really most
grown-up people from this area, too) this was the first "foreign
language" they were forced to learn at school and sometimes forced to
use when communicating with certain swells. Consequently, ever since I
had to go to school myself, I was slated and frequently also physcially
attacked on the presumption that I was intentionally trying to show my
contempt for normal people because of my use of this unsavory language
only the bigheaded ever use instead of the local dialect all good people
appreciate so very much. And you certainly wouldn't approve of their
choice of words.

My conclusion from this is that what people do or don't consider
"acceptable use of language" is pretty arbitrary, mostly dependent on
their personal history, and a very bad indicator of attitude.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Brian Nash]

Regardless of whether John is a troll, this list seems to be tearing
itself apart at the slightest provocation.

Perhaps people here are more stressed than they let on.
Perhaps _certain people_ should cut them some slack.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 08:16:09PM +, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 21/12/15 20:01, Mitt Green wrote:

Rowland Penny  wrote:


I am beginning to think this may be aimed squarely at me, if so, then
come out and say so. I think Mitt may have taken exception to the word 'moron' 
[...]

It was addressed to everyone here. You have taken a few chances here
trying to insult John Hughes, John being accused as troll, didn't insult
anyone (at least from what I've read) but used profanity as well.
I say it again, we shouldn't accuse someone being a troll,


If somebody asks the same question over and over again (in different 
ways) then that person is a troll, that is not an insult, it is a 
fact! I haven't insulted anybody, if you think I have, then you need 
to re-think your understanding of English.


i.e. moron: a stupid or foolish person
Troll: someone who asks the same question over and over again, or 
will not accept an answer, when one is given.


If someone needs help and I can give it, then I am very willing to try 
and help. What I not willing to do, is to put up with someone who is 
just trying to stir things up and the only way to deal with such 
people is to stand up to them. Being wishy-washy with them, will do no 
good at all.


Rowland


insult them and tell them to go away, answering
questions instead (well, till a reasonable level)???.


People may say that I shouldn't answer his posts, but that would mean,
if somebody reads the thread, that what he is saying is true, but it isn't.

Everyone is free to post their opinions and no one is going to stop them
from doing that.


Best regards,

Mitt


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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Joel Roth]

Brian Nash wrote:
> Regardless of whether John is a troll, this list seems to be tearing
> itself apart at the slightest provocation.
 
> Perhaps people here are more stressed than they let on.
> Perhaps _certain people_ should cut them some slack.

I read that you are appealing for moderation, while using
provocative language yourself. Is that your intention? 


-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Teodoro Santoni]

Good evening,

2015-12-21 18:49 GMT+01:00, Mitt Green :
> Linus, Lennart, Theo de Raadt, they are all
> criticised for using inappropriate language.
> Debian is also blamed for lacking a little discipline
> in the public mailing lists.

Probably is the common, clickbait-polluted, sense.
*I* blame the gnomedesktop.org team and the Debian mailing lists for
their harsh obtuseness.
I can apply the Hanlon's razor for lists.debian, whereas I find it hard to
for "free"/gnomedesktop.
In the end I think that the most vocal exponents of GNU/Fedora, like
our aforementioned Poettering, are paid for trolling. They
are also great at it, sadly, and is difficult to read him behave as
Torvalds or de Raadt.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

I've been talking a lot about courtesy in the community.
It is certainly the biggest thing Debian lacks (and
some mates from outside lack it as well, check my post here:
http://www.linux.org/threads/random-thoughts-on-linux-and-open-source-movement.7452/)

I must admit that I *hate* when people use gutter language and insults
in a public mailing list.

Being a NetBSD user for a couple of months I couldn't help but compared:
pretty much all emails there comply with "netiquette".

To John Hughes to end the flamewar completely: people here are going to
remove *any* of remaining systemd dependencies, including libsystemd0.
We don't need systemd. At all. Either it is bad for you or not, you decide.

If some of ye don't want to answer, to "feed the troll" or want to spill
a bunch of dirty words, please don't answer. Insults won't help the project
succeed.

Please respect each other and stay professional.

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 20/12/15 13:20, Adam Borowski wrote:

On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 12:21:11PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:

On 20/12/15 11:18, Adam Borowski wrote:

Package: libpam-systemd
[...]
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.17), libpam0g (>= 0.99.7.1), libselinux1 (>= 1.32),
  systemd (= 228-2), libpam-runtime (>= 1.0.1-6), dbus,
  systemd-shim (>= 8-2) | systemd-sysv


Yes, like I said, libpam-systemd depends on systemd-shim *or* systemd-sysv.

You don't need or want systemd installed if you have systemd-shim installed.

Please reread what I pasted again.  There's a hard dependency on systemd.
And libpam-systemd is the only real user of systemd-shim.



You are in fact right, libpam-systemd needs systemd installed, and 
either systemd as pid 1, or systemd-shim installed (and hence init as 
pid 1).


That's not what I was hoping for.  I'll have to do more investigation.

Sorry for the confusion.

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

Mitt Green  writes:
> I've been talking a lot about courtesy in the community.
> It is certainly the biggest thing Debian lacks (and
> some mates from outside lack it as well, check my post here:
> http://www.linux.org/threads/random-thoughts-on-linux-and-open-source-movement.7452/)
>
> I must admit that I *hate* when people use gutter language and insults
> in a public mailing list.

People who aren't native speakers expressing themselves in a way a lot
of native speaker do as well, especially if they're rather removed from
urban (white) (upper) middle class prejudices about acceptable use of
language, are, in my opinion, a lot less damaging than those capable of
working themselves up into exalted, strongly negative emotional states
(such as 'hate') because of trifles.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

Rainer Weikusat  writes:
> Mitt Green  writes:
>> I've been talking a lot about courtesy in the community.
>> It is certainly the biggest thing Debian lacks (and
>> some mates from outside lack it as well, check my post here:
>> http://www.linux.org/threads/random-thoughts-on-linux-and-open-source-movement.7452/)
>>
>> I must admit that I *hate* when people use gutter language and insults
>> in a public mailing list.
>

[...]

> those capable of working themselves up into exalted, strongly negative
> emotional states (such as 'hate') because of trifles.

As additional clarification: I didn't mean to suggest that Mitt Green
was seriously contemplating to get his battle axe ready to chop somone's
foul head off because of "use of four letter words in public", just
highlight that one should be very careful wrt reading '[irrational]
aggression' into people based on use of certain words.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

>As additional clarification: I didn't mean to suggest that Mitt Green

>was seriously contemplating to get his battle axe ready to chop somone's
>foul head off because of "use of four letter words in public", just
>highlight that one should be very careful wrt reading '[irrational]

>aggression' into people based on use of certain words.

Exchange "hate" for "scorn" or "despise" or any other word with similar
meaning if you want. And I actually said that "I hate when people blah
blah blah" and *not* "I hate people who blah blah blah". I don't express
strong feelings such as hatred for such small things.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

‎Ra‎iner ,

You miss my point. I am trying to deliver
the message that it is in my opinion 
unacceptable for people to use oath and insults in
public. Doesn't matter in a pub, in a shop,
in a mailing list, in a class, in a street, whatever.
It can be acceptable in gangsta rap, in rednecks
societies, in Louis CK stand-up.

Linus, Lennart, Theo de Raadt, they are all 
criticised for using inappropriate language.
Debian is also blamed for lacking a little discipline
in the public mailing lists. I think we should
be like people in BSDs (comparing because I know
what I'm about), professional and friendly,
this at the same time also leads to proper documentation
(caring about others). I'm not cringing in disgust,
instead I'm saying that there is something else we
should excess at, and in my opinion it is valuable.
I don't agree with Linus that respect has to be earned;
I reckon it should be shown to everyone around
(well, at least publicly).


My two pennies,

Mitt‎
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Dragan FOSS]

On 12/20/2015 08:56 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:

systemd-shim does not depend on systemd, and it conflicts with
systemd.  You cannot install both, as claimed by John Hughes.


apt-cache rdepends systemd-shim
systemd-shim
Reverse Depends:
  systemd-shim:i386
  systemd:i386
 |xfce4-session
  systemd
 |libpam-systemd
  init-select

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Adam Borowski]

On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 10:12:05AM +0100, John Hughes wrote:
> On 19/12/15 17:28, Adam Borowski wrote:
> >
> >Systemd-shim is a tool for running _systemd_ without it being pid 1.
> >It's useless without systemd.
> >
> 
> Huh?  systemd-shim is a tool for using libbpam-systemd (which Gnome depends
> on) without systemd being *installed*
> 
> In fact it *breaks* systemd, you can't have them both installed.

Package: libpam-systemd
Source: systemd
Version: 228-2
Installed-Size: 337
Maintainer: Debian systemd Maintainers 

Architecture: amd64
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.17), libpam0g (>= 0.99.7.1), libselinux1 (>= 1.32),
 systemd (= 228-2), libpam-runtime (>= 1.0.1-6), dbus,
 systemd-shim (>= 8-2) | systemd-sysv

-- 
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 19/12/15 17:28, Adam Borowski wrote:


Systemd-shim is a tool for running _systemd_ without it being pid 1.
It's useless without systemd.



Huh?  systemd-shim is a tool for using libbpam-systemd (which Gnome 
depends on) without systemd being *installed*


In fact it *breaks* systemd, you can't have them both installed.


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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 20/12/15 11:18, Adam Borowski wrote:

On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 10:12:05AM +0100, John Hughes wrote:


Huh?  systemd-shim is a tool for using libbpam-systemd (which Gnome depends
on) without systemd being *installed*

In fact it *breaks* systemd, you can't have them both installed.

Package: libpam-systemd
[...]
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.17), libpam0g (>= 0.99.7.1), libselinux1 (>= 1.32),
  systemd (= 228-2), libpam-runtime (>= 1.0.1-6), dbus,
  systemd-shim (>= 8-2) | systemd-sysv


Yes, like I said, libpam-systemd depends on systemd-shim *or* systemd-sysv.

You don't need or want systemd installed if you have systemd-shim installed.



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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Adam Borowski]

On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 12:21:11PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:
> On 20/12/15 11:18, Adam Borowski wrote:
> >On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 10:12:05AM +0100, John Hughes wrote:
> >>
> >>Huh?  systemd-shim is a tool for using libbpam-systemd (which Gnome depends
> >>on) without systemd being *installed*
> >>
> >>In fact it *breaks* systemd, you can't have them both installed.
> >Package: libpam-systemd
> >[...]
> >Depends: libc6 (>= 2.17), libpam0g (>= 0.99.7.1), libselinux1 (>= 1.32),
> >  systemd (= 228-2), libpam-runtime (>= 1.0.1-6), dbus,
> >  systemd-shim (>= 8-2) | systemd-sysv
> >
> Yes, like I said, libpam-systemd depends on systemd-shim *or* systemd-sysv.
> 
> You don't need or want systemd installed if you have systemd-shim installed.

Please reread what I pasted again.  There's a hard dependency on systemd.
And libpam-systemd is the only real user of systemd-shim.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 01:20:58PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 12:21:11PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:
> > On 20/12/15 11:18, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > >On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 10:12:05AM +0100, John Hughes wrote:
> > >>
> > >>Huh?  systemd-shim is a tool for using libbpam-systemd (which Gnome 
> > >>depends
> > >>on) without systemd being *installed*
> > >>
> > >>In fact it *breaks* systemd, you can't have them both installed.
> > >Package: libpam-systemd
> > >[...]
> > >Depends: libc6 (>= 2.17), libpam0g (>= 0.99.7.1), libselinux1 (>= 1.32),
> > >  systemd (= 228-2), libpam-runtime (>= 1.0.1-6), dbus,
> > >  systemd-shim (>= 8-2) | systemd-sysv
> > >
> > Yes, like I said, libpam-systemd depends on systemd-shim *or* systemd-sysv.
> > 
> > You don't need or want systemd installed if you have systemd-shim installed.
> 
> Please reread what I pasted again.  There's a hard dependency on systemd.
> And libpam-systemd is the only real user of systemd-shim.

To achieve some clarity I performed a few experiments using 
user-mode aptitude on my alpha-two Jessie devuan system.

 Yes, libpam-systemd does depend on systemd, as claimed by Adam 
Borowski.
 No, systemd-shim does not depend on systemd, and it conflicts with 
systemd.  You cannot install both, as claimed by John Hughes.

Are there other users of libpam-systemd?  If so, are  some of them 
unreal?

What is the top-level package for installing gnome?

-- hendrik

> 
> -- 
> A tit a day keeps the vet away.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 19 Dec 2015 11:02:49 +
Rowland Penny  wrote:


> Will somebody please do what debian does when somebody says systemd
> is bad on their mailing list -- Ban him!
> 
> Rowland

Calling Don Armstrong. Calling Don Armstrong. Don, we need you!

:-)

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Adam Borowski]

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 12:46:21PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:
> On 19/12/15 12:02, Rowland Penny wrote:
> >Look, you troll, If you 'apt-get remove systemd' on debian, it will
> >remove Gnome or Mate, I know I tried. Anything that does this, is
> >*BAD* in my books.
> 
> You're doing it wrong.
> 
> http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation
> 
> Hint: you need to install systemd-shim.

Systemd-shim is a tool for running _systemd_ without it being pid 1.
It's useless without systemd.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Go Linux]

On Sat, 12/19/15, John Hughes <j...@atlantech.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Our friendly community
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Saturday, December 19, 2015, 6:05 AM

On 19/12/15 12:54, Rowland Penny wrote:

> Firstly, *never* email me directly.

Sorry, pressed wrong button in crappy thunderbird interface.



This troll can't even master his email client but is an authority on systemd?  
He has used this excuse several times before.  I'm not buying it . . .


***

On Sat, 12/19/15, John Hughes <j...@atlantech.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Our friendly community
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Saturday, December 19, 2015, 6:48 AM

On 19/12/15 12:47, KatolaZ wrote:

> It also removes cups and many other things, for that matter.

Are you sure?  Why?  When I just tried on sid it didn't say it was going
to remove cups.  It does say it's going to remove printer-driver-hpcups
and printer-driver-hpijs for some insane reason.



The operative word here is 'insane'.  An apt description for the insidious  
(and parasitic) way systemd it attaches itself to just about anything for 
whatever (most likely nefarious) purpose.

golinux

(I've fed the troll.  Now I'm out.)
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community (John Hughes)

[janpenguin]

Looking back the past, the precursor of systemd chaos was replacement of 
ALSA with pulseaudio that caused headache to many innocent users from 
Debian 6.0 to 7.0. I tried to use buggy pulseaudio for months but went 
back to ALSA.


Systemd built-in Debian Jessie was a disaster.

How many users are fine loosing hibernation feature that preserve 
previous session over dubious-faster booting time?  Usual uptime of my 
Debian workstation is forty to sixty days.





On 12/19/2015 02:45 PM, John Hughes wrote:

   And all the little no-systemd irritations are fixed? 
hibernation/suspend

   and so on?


Yes.

I installed Devuan on a HP netbook lately, suspend and hibernation are 
working properly.
Two months old Devuan workstation has been running 35 five days 
flawless, whose uptime is 35 days. I put it on hibernation once or twice 
a day.


You seems not to understand about package dependency policy of APT. In 
most cases, when a base package, that hundreds packages depend on, is 
upgraded to higher version or replaced by user manually, next package 
upgrade using apt-get triggers wiping out hundreds packages.


If systemd takes control over Linux kernel, it's done deal.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-and-others-on-linuxs-systemd/
https://i2.wp.com/zdnet1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/10/05/7aae1747-4ce3-11e4-b6a0-d4ae52e95e57/resize/770x578/4a975803117e2bffc6a1dd3d5d8dba64/systemdcomponents-svg.png

Apparently Microsoft provides Windows 10 for free. Free means without 
license fee. It's deceptive. I see many Linux users do not care about 
the core values of FOSS. As long as they don't spend money, it's fine. 
Free as free bear!
Freedom has to provide choices. End users who have no choice become 
corporate slaves who are forced to do buy or use whatever corporations 
feed into.


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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 18/12/15 19:40, Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:39:26 +0100
John Hughes  wrote:


On 18/12/15 17:18, Mitt Green wrote:

No, the actual work on packages that remove libsystemd0 dependency.
I've done quite of it for my machine. Notable examples include
angband repositories apart from Devuan's own. Adam made a big
base removing the dependency.

But why?  What badness does libsystemd0 do?

I don't know.

Here's what I do know. Before 12/18/2015 (today), not one single email
from "John Hughes" has been posted to dng@lists.dyne.org. Today
(12/18/2015), there have been 10 (and counting) "John Hughes" emails,


Yes I've only been reading the list as a lurker up to now.


most of which tended to say "libsystemd0 isn't that bad",


I don't think it's that bad, and, despite my asking nobody can tell me 
why it is.



  and one of
which seemed to say that you need remove systemd dependencies only from
*direct* systemdlib0 dependencies, and not the sub-dependencies, and
that makes no sense to me at all.


Huh?  if a depends on b which depends on c which depends on libsystemd0 
then only c needs modification to remove that dependancy, not a or b.


One of the reasons LKCL's post was met with such derision was his claim 
that over 4000 packages depended on libsystemd0, when the real number is 74.




But when I hear "John Hughes" post several "libsystemd0 isn't that bad"
posts on his very first day, well, Mr. Hughes' credibility descends.
And when his credibility descends, one must consider the possibility
that he's here only to stir up conflict. It's been tried before, and it
works very poorly on this list.


I decided to post to the list because it seems to me that you're all 
fiddling around with cosmetic parts of the problem (remove libsystemd0, 
replace udev and so on) while ignoring the huge steaming elephant turd 
in the middle of the room -- logind.


Without a functional replacement for logind then Devuan is doomed.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 18/12/15 15:50, Mitt Green wrote:

It's a library whose sole purpose is to make sure that
packages *don't* depend on
systemd.

So, you are saying that libsystemd0 is harmless and it
doesn't mean anything unless you install systemd, systemd-sysv and so on?


Exactly.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 19/12/15 11:28, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 19/12/15 10:21, John Hughes wrote:

On 18/12/15 19:40, Steve Litt wrote:



most of [ JH's posts ] tended to say "libsystemd0 isn't that bad",


I don't think it's that bad, and, despite my asking nobody can tell 
me why it is.


I will give you a good reason why systemd is bad, if you try to remove 
it from debian, it also removes your desktop etc.


Are you talking about libsystemd0?  Because it's not true that removing 
systemd from Debian will remove your desktop.  If you are talking about 
libsystemd0 why do you want to remove it?  All I see are circular 
arguments -- "libsystemd0" is bad because removing it breaks things, so 
we must remove it.






I decided to post to the list because it seems to me that you're all 
fiddling around with cosmetic parts of the problem (remove 
libsystemd0, replace udev and so on) while ignoring the huge steaming 
elephant turd in the middle of the room -- logind.


Without a functional replacement for logind then Devuan is doomed.


Why?, Linux worked very well before 'logind' appeared.



Maybe, but it doesn't now, so either you stick to wheezy or you fix the 
problem.  Ignoring it won't make it go away.


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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 19/12/15 12:02, Rowland Penny wrote:


Look, you troll, If you 'apt-get remove systemd' on debian, it will
remove Gnome or Mate, I know I tried. Anything that does this, is
*BAD* in my books.


You're doing it wrong.

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation

Hint: you need to install systemd-shim.

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 19/12/15 12:54, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 19/12/15 11:45, John Hughes wrote:

On 19/12/15 12:02, Rowland Penny wrote:


Look, you troll, If you 'apt-get remove systemd' on debian, it will 
remove Gnome or Mate, I know I tried. Anything that does this, is 
*BAD* in my books.


You're doing it wrong.

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation 



Hint: you need to install systemd-shim.


Firstly, *never* email me directly.


Sorry, pressed wrong button in crappy thunderbird interface.



Did you miss the bit about my pathological hatred of systemd??


You cannot imagine the depth of the all consuming lack of interest I 
have in your mental state, pathological or otherwise.


I'm interested in the tecnological aspects of avoiding systemd.  I'm 
unhappy that people who don't want to use systemd are forced into 
running broken systems, so I would like to see useful work towards 
making it possible to easily run alternatives to systemd.




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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 19/12/15 12:47, KatolaZ wrote:

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 11:02:49AM +, Rowland Penny wrote:

[cut]


Look, you troll, If you 'apt-get remove systemd' on debian, it will
remove Gnome or Mate, I know I tried. Anything that does this, is
*BAD* in my books.


It also removes cups and many other things, for that matter.


Are you sure?  Why?  When I just tried on sid it didn't say it was going 
to remove cups.  It does say it's going to remove printer-driver-hpcups 
and printer-driver-hpijs for some insane reason.




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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

John Hughes  writes:
> On 18/12/15 15:50, Mitt Green wrote:
>>> It's a library whose sole purpose is to make sure that
>>> packages *don't* depend on
>>> systemd.
>> So, you are saying that libsystemd0 is harmless and it
>> doesn't mean anything unless you install systemd, systemd-sysv and so on?
>
> Exactly.

*If* libsystemd0 is structured as you claimed it was (I didn't check
this), it's nothing but a second (and presumably somewhat sub-par)
implementation of a set of systemd defined APIs which sits in a shared
library (very likely written by the systemd developers, as it's part of
the same source package as systemd) and some runtime switching code
which either uses the facilities of identifiable systemd-programs or
falls back to the library reimplementation in case these aren't
available. It's purpose would be to enable applications depending on
systemd-facilities to work on systems which apparently don't have it
installed by providing a second systemd implementation in another file,
IOW, the 'preferred programming interface' of such a system is whatever
the systemd developers decided it should be and this interface is
implemented by code which is part of systemd.

But when the systemd developers effectively control both the API
definition and the API implementation, the question whether or not such
a system is actually running systemd becomes largely academic: It's a
systemd system, just possibly one using a different way of managing
processes.





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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Didier Kryn]

Le 18/12/2015 17:39, John Hughes a écrit :

But why?  What badness does libsystemd0 do?


It's poluting the depending packages, the repository, and apt 
cache. And it can only be built from upstream systemd source, which 
means it's imposed on you in some way, even if you don't want it.


Imagine if you had to install a similar library for every 
non-installed software!


  Mitt Green wrote on 18/12/2015 16:51:

he same thing applies to libpulse and libselinux.


So there were already two like this. Note that one of those is also 
by Poettering.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rowland Penny]

On 19/12/15 10:21, John Hughes wrote:

On 18/12/15 19:40, Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:39:26 +0100
John Hughes  wrote:


On 18/12/15 17:18, Mitt Green wrote:

No, the actual work on packages that remove libsystemd0 dependency.
I've done quite of it for my machine. Notable examples include
angband repositories apart from Devuan's own. Adam made a big
base removing the dependency.

But why?  What badness does libsystemd0 do?

I don't know.

Here's what I do know. Before 12/18/2015 (today), not one single email
from "John Hughes" has been posted to dng@lists.dyne.org. Today
(12/18/2015), there have been 10 (and counting) "John Hughes" emails,


Yes I've only been reading the list as a lurker up to now.


most of which tended to say "libsystemd0 isn't that bad",


I don't think it's that bad, and, despite my asking nobody can tell me 
why it is.


I will give you a good reason why systemd is bad, if you try to remove 
it from debian, it also removes your desktop etc.





  and one of
which seemed to say that you need remove systemd dependencies only from
*direct* systemdlib0 dependencies, and not the sub-dependencies, and
that makes no sense to me at all.


Huh?  if a depends on b which depends on c which depends on 
libsystemd0 then only c needs modification to remove that dependancy, 
not a or b.


One of the reasons LKCL's post was met with such derision was his 
claim that over 4000 packages depended on libsystemd0, when the real 
number is 74.




But when I hear "John Hughes" post several "libsystemd0 isn't that bad"
posts on his very first day, well, Mr. Hughes' credibility descends.
And when his credibility descends, one must consider the possibility
that he's here only to stir up conflict. It's been tried before, and it
works very poorly on this list.


I decided to post to the list because it seems to me that you're all 
fiddling around with cosmetic parts of the problem (remove 
libsystemd0, replace udev and so on) while ignoring the huge steaming 
elephant turd in the middle of the room -- logind.


Without a functional replacement for logind then Devuan is doomed.


Why?, Linux worked very well before 'logind' appeared.

Now please go away, Troll

Rowland


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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rowland Penny]

On 19/12/15 10:53, John Hughes wrote:

On 19/12/15 11:28, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 19/12/15 10:21, John Hughes wrote:

On 18/12/15 19:40, Steve Litt wrote:



most of [ JH's posts ] tended to say "libsystemd0 isn't that bad",


I don't think it's that bad, and, despite my asking nobody can tell 
me why it is.


I will give you a good reason why systemd is bad, if you try to 
remove it from debian, it also removes your desktop etc.


Are you talking about libsystemd0?  Because it's not true that 
removing systemd from Debian will remove your desktop.  If you are 
talking about libsystemd0 why do you want to remove it?  All I see are 
circular arguments -- "libsystemd0" is bad because removing it breaks 
things, so we must remove it.


Look, you troll, If you 'apt-get remove systemd' on debian, it will 
remove Gnome or Mate, I know I tried. Anything that does this, is *BAD* 
in my books.


Will somebody please do what debian does when somebody says systemd is 
bad on their mailing list -- Ban him!


Rowland







I decided to post to the list because it seems to me that you're all 
fiddling around with cosmetic parts of the problem (remove 
libsystemd0, replace udev and so on) while ignoring the huge 
steaming elephant turd in the middle of the room -- logind.


Without a functional replacement for logind then Devuan is doomed.


Why?, Linux worked very well before 'logind' appeared.



Maybe, but it doesn't now, so either you stick to wheezy or you fix 
the problem.  Ignoring it won't make it go away.


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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Dragan FOSS]

On 12/19/2015 01:05 PM, John Hughes wrote:

people who don't want to use systemd are forced into running broken
systems, so I would like to see useful work towards making it possible
to easily run alternatives to systemd.


You're obviously ignorant :)

Rock-solid Debian-jessie-based system without systemd et al (including 
logind, libsystemd0. *-shim etc..)


https://foss.rs/threads/trios-mia-openrc-zfs-rc1.3057/

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151013.005909.eadfd010.en.html

have a good day :)

Dragan
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 19/12/15 14:34, Dragan FOSS wrote:

On 12/19/2015 01:05 PM, John Hughes wrote:

people who don't want to use systemd are forced into running broken
systems, so I would like to see useful work towards making it possible
to easily run alternatives to systemd.


You're obviously ignorant :)


Apparently.




Rock-solid Debian-jessie-based system without systemd et al (including 
logind, libsystemd0. *-shim etc..)


https://foss.rs/threads/trios-mia-openrc-zfs-rc1.3057/

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151013.005909.eadfd010.en.html


And all the little no-systemd irritations are fixed? hibernation/suspend 
and so on?


Why isn't this Devuan?

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Dragan FOSS]

On 12/19/2015 02:45 PM, John Hughes wrote:

And all the little no-systemd irritations are fixed? hibernation/suspend
and so on?


I don't know...you can try for yourself.. :)
BTW, I think that list of "little no-systemd irritations.." is much 
shorter than list of systemd irritations ;)




Why isn't this Devuan?


TRIOS is much older project than Devuan :)

Dragan
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Didier Kryn]

Le 17/12/2015 20:21, Go Linux a écrit :

Marco d'Itri's response to that post is illuminating:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00644.html

"I strongly recommend that the people who cannot live with libsystemd0
installed on their systems leave Debian, because their life is going to
suck more and more as we will integrate it in every important daemon
after jessie will have been released."


The rest of d'Itri's mail is also pretty demonstrative: he laughs 
at being accused of conspiracy, showing he doesn't see what he is doing. 
This a spectacular example of how blind people can be when they belong 
to a group which is in a position to dictate its choices to the others. 
They won't realize their fall untill they reach the ground; and, then, 
they will accuse the others of conspiracy.


The list of 4583 packages now depending on libsysemd0 includes a 
lot of packages which definitely have nothing to do with it. The final 
lock will happen when the dependency will reach the shells and gcc. 
Given the fast contamination, we should expect this pretty soon.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:22:33AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:

[cut]

> 
> The list of 4583 packages now depending on libsysemd0 includes a
> lot of packages which definitely have nothing to do with it. The
> final lock will happen when the dependency will reach the shells and
> gcc. Given the fast contamination, we should expect this pretty
> soon.
> 

Just a simple question: how are the BSD folks dealing with those
dependencies in the ports? I beliebe there will never be a running
libsystemd0 under FreeBSD, for instance. It might be a good idea to
"re-port" the ports back into devuan, if you see what I mean...

My2Cents

KatolaZ

-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

Didier Kryn  wrote:

>The list of 4583 packages now depending on libsystemd0 includes a 
>lot of packages which definitely have nothing to do with it. The final 
>lock will happen when the dependency will reach the shells and gcc. 

>Given the fast contamination, we should expect this pretty soon.


I reckon when we'll have libsystemd0 as a gcc dependency,
the game is over. Or either Devuan will need a huge team that will
constantly rebuild packages.

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

KatolaZ  wrote:



>Just a simple question: how are the BSD folks dealing with those>dependencies 
>in the ports? I beliebe there will never be a running
>libsystemd0 under FreeBSD, for instance. It might be a good idea to
>"re-port" the ports back into devuan, if you see what I mean...


The problem is Debian'ish. Package libsystemd0 exists here only,
others have to install full systemd. Or do they have to?

Package maintainers made all these dependencies; you can easily
(well, not really) compile GNOME3 if you use sort of "no-systemd" flags,
I believe they have this option.

And also building packages on BSDs is much easier;
for example in NetBSD's pkgsrc package there is a small makefile containing URL
of the source code and some other small files like licence, pkgsrc deps
and devs contact information.

Dbus and related packages naturally don't depend on systemd.
As well as previously mentioned GNOME3, they have systemd support
on Linux systems but no more which basically means that configure
will check for it but will not require.

Regards,

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Didier Kryn]

Le 18/12/2015 11:55, Mitt Green a écrit :

Didier Kryn  wrote:


The list of 4583 packages now depending on libsystemd0 includes a
lot of packages which definitely have nothing to do with it. The final
lock will happen when the dependency will reach the shells and gcc.
Given the fast contamination, we should expect this pretty soon.


I reckon when we'll have libsystemd0 as a gcc dependency,
the game is over. Or either Devuan will need a huge team that will
constantly rebuild packages.

Mitt


Sorry for spreading FUD. In fact I don't think the contamination 
will reach upstream. It might only be added by a zealous Debian 
maintainer. The best hope is that the GCC package maintainers do not 
accept to create such a dependency and move to Devuan if forced.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

KatolaZ  writes:
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:22:33AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
>> The list of 4583 packages now depending on libsysemd0 includes a
>> lot of packages which definitely have nothing to do with it. The
>> final lock will happen when the dependency will reach the shells and
>> gcc. Given the fast contamination, we should expect this pretty
>> soon.
>
> Just a simple question: how are the BSD folks dealing with those
> dependencies in the ports?

By not letting a bunch of people with some seriously strange axe to
grind spuriously add them.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

KatolaZ  wrote:

>Sure, but you would agree that rebuilding an increasing number of
>infected packages in Devuan from upstream would mean a great deal of
>unnecessary work...


It may be unnecessary, that's why I see a couple of ways to solve it:

1) Contacting maintainers directly. This can be unfortunate
considering responses from the community but at the end of the day
I hope that there are some fellows that are more open to this.

2) If #1 fails, cutting Devuan to stable only, which means much less work,
but also admittedly means lowering the potential user base. Many
desktop users like myself prefer newer packages and sometimes it is
crucial to be cutting edge. For example, if one needs latest GTK but there
is only a version that is two versions behind.

3) And probably the least possible variant, rebuilding everything
to newer packages and creating the new ecosystem. Thus versions of
packages will be similar to Stretch/Sid but without endless revisions,
without rolling release model, only kind of bug fixes, crucial bugs I mean. I 
reckon it would be better to create
packages from upstream. The advantage is Devuan
will not depend on Debian and their TC and package
maintainers. Devuan will only use dpkg as the base but
it means much more work though potentially
expands that user base I mentioned. Trying to
maintain newer package versions means more regular
releases, like, let's say, once in two years. In this case
I think we'll have compatibility with Testing/Unstable.

Sure, these points only if systemd cluttering will reach 
extraordinary levels.

My two pennies worth,

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

Mitt Green  writes:
>>It's a library whose sole purpose is to make sure that
>>packages *don't* depend on
>>systemd.
>
> So, you are saying that libsystemd0 is harmless and it
> doesn't mean anything unless you install systemd, systemd-sysv and so
> on?

If you look at

,
|  if (init_is_systemd) {
|do some systemd stuff;
|  }
|  else {
|carry on as before;
|  }
`

you'll note that the

if (init_is_systemd) {
do some systemd stuff;
} else {
/* syslog(LOG_EMERG, "ESYADMINDEPRECATED!!!"); */
}

is nothing but "systemd support code added to some package".
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

>is nothing but "systemd support code added to some
>package".

If it is so, why there is so much hype about it? 
I previously thought that Devuan aim was to remove
*any* of systemd components. Does that mean that
we *should*‎ care of this dependency?

As far as I see libsystemd0 is only a shared library.
Why should it provide features that I don't use?
It's like buying a pick-up lorry to drive it in an urban area.

Then why pushing it everywhere where it is unnecessary?
Let then people decide whether to use it or not. 

The same thing applies to libpulse and libselinux.

May gods bless this packaging system.

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

Rainer Weikusat writes:


A somewhat loaded "executive summary" of [Russ Allbery's] statement
> could be: > "Considering that systemd was forced into Debian, I 
really don't see why

I would want to bother was all this boring tech stuff any longer".


An improbable reading given that Russ voted for systemd in the TC vote.

In fact he seems to have resigned because he was pissed off with Ian 
Jackson's anti-systemd (pro-upstart) agitation.


See https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708#6729 for 
the TC vote:


  4x D U O V F (bdale, russ, keith, don)
 F U D O V (steve)
 U D O F V (colin)
 F V O U D (ian)
 U F D O V (andi)



(Duh, resend 'cos I got sender address wrong).
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 18/12/15 15:54, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 18/12/2015 15:35, John Hughes a écrit :

The list is, of course, spurious.

$ cat /etc/debian_version
8.2
$ apt-cache rdepends libsystemd0 | wc -l
74


Sorry, my primary attitude is to believe what people write. So
it's only 74. Does it include chained dependency?



Of course not.  Why should it?  LKCL's messages were about the enormous 
effort needed to fix the 4000 odd packages that "depended" on 
libsystemd0, when he only "needed' to modify 74 packages to get rid of 
all libsystemd0 dependency.



Every single function in libsystemd0 looks like:

 if (init_is_systemd) {
   do some systemd stuff;
 }
 else {
   carry on as before;
 }


But do they have also a libupstart0, libsysv0, etc, on which all
these 74 package depend?


Nope.  upstart and sysv-init don't provide any interesting features 
beyond the simple init subset that packages might like to use.  The 
point of libsystemd0 is to let packages use systemd features without 
depending on systemd.


Which makes LKCL's proposal of making libsystemd0 loaded by dlopen even 
funnier -- to avoid depending on libsystemd0 packages would have to 
include systemd specific code, or depend on a lib-not-systemd0 package. 
 But that package would also contain the magic word, so we'd need to 
dlopen it, so either programs would include systemd specific code or 
we'd have to invent a lib-not-not-systemd0 package, but that package 
would...


Does the arrow ever hit the target?  Does Achilles catch the tortoise?

(I hate Thunderbird -- resending 'cos idiot program chose wrong sender
address *again*)
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

Didier Kryn writes:


The list of 4583 packages now depending on libsysemd0 includes a
lot of packages which definitely have nothing to do with it. The final
lock will happen when the dependency will reach the shells and gcc.
Given the fast contamination, we should expect this pretty soon.


The list is, of course, spurious.

$ cat /etc/debian_version
8.2
$ apt-cache rdepends libsystemd0 | wc -l
74

Even worse, this whole thread in d-u/d-d is based on a total misunderstanding by
LKCL of what libsystemd0 *is*.

It's a library whose sole purpose is to make sure that packages *don't* depend 
on
systemd.

Every single function in libsystemd0 looks like:

 if (init_is_systemd) {
   do some systemd stuff;
 }
 else {
   carry on as before;
 }

But LKCL decided that the problem was not systemd as init, it was the presence
of packages containing the letters d, e, m, s, t and y in one particular order.

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

John Hughes writes:
In fact he seems to have resigned because he was pissed off 
with Ian Jackson's anti-systemd (pro-upstart) agitation.


Rumour had it that he was offgepissed about the manner of discourse, both 
in Debian generally at the time and in particular in the systemd 
discussion.


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 18/12/15 16:51, Mitt Green wrote:

is nothing but "systemd support code added to some
package".

If it is so, why there is so much hype about it?


Hype about what?  libsystemd0?  The only "hype" about libsystemd0 was 
from LKCL who came up with a strange plan to remove it by replacing 
libsystemd0 by a library that would dynamically load libsystemd0, 
probably called lib-not-quite-libsystemd0.



  I previously thought that Devuan aim was to remove
*any* of systemd components.


Funny, I thought Devuan was about choice.


As far as I see libsystemd0 is only a shared library.
Why should it provide features that I don't use?
It's like buying a pick-up lorry to drive it in an urban area.


libsystemd0 is a trailer hitch -- it's up to you if you want to hook up 
the trailer.



Then why pushing it everywhere where it is unnecessary?
Let then people decide whether to use it or not.


If libsystemd0 is not present people don't get a free choice -- they 
can't use some systemd features.



The same thing applies to libpulse and libselinux.


Just like libsystemd0 they do nothing if pulseaudio or selinux are not 
installed.




May gods bless this packaging system.


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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

>It's a library whose sole purpose is to make sure that
>packages *don't* depend on
>systemd.

So, you are saying that libsystemd0 is harmless and it
doesn't mean anything unless you install systemd, systemd-sysv and so on?

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[aitor_czr]

Hi John,

On 18/12/15 16:18, John Hughes  wrote:

(I hate Thunderbird -- resending 'cos idiot program chose wrong sender
address*again*)


I use ManJaro Mail :)

  Aitor.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 18/12/15 16:25, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

If you look at

,
|  if (init_is_systemd) {
|do some systemd stuff;
|  }
|  else {
|carry on as before;
|  }
`

you'll note that the

if (init_is_systemd) {
do some systemd stuff;
} else {
/* syslog(LOG_EMERG, "ESYADMINDEPRECATED!!!"); */
}

is nothing but "systemd support code added to some package".


Can't find the string "ESYADMINDEPRECATED" in the source for libsystemd0.

I can understand people not liking systemd, but why criticize it for 
things it doesn't do?



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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Tomasz Torcz]

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 04:27:32PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> >> you'll note that the
> >>
> >> if (init_is_systemd)F {
> >>do some systemd stuff;
> >> } else {
> >>/* syslog(LOG_EMERG, "ESYADMINDEPRECATED!!!"); */
> >> }
> >>
> >> is nothing but "systemd support code added to some package".
> >
> > Can't find the string "ESYADMINDEPRECATED" in the source for
> > libsystemd0.
> 
> That's not really surprising as there is no source for
> 'libsystemd0'. It's a part of systemd,
> 
> https://packages.debian.org/sid/libsystemd0
> 
> and the source of that doesn't contain 'if (init_is_systemd)' either.

  That was pseudo-code.  The real function name is sd_booted().

-- 
Tomasz Torcz Morality must always be based on practicality.
xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl-- Baron Vladimir Harkonnen

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

John Hughes  writes:

> On 18/12/15 16:25, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>> If you look at
>>
>> ,
>> |  if (init_is_systemd) {
>> |do some systemd stuff;
>> |  }
>> |  else {
>> |carry on as before;
>> |  }
>> `
>>
>> you'll note that the
>>
>> if (init_is_systemd)F {
>>  do some systemd stuff;
>> } else {
>>  /* syslog(LOG_EMERG, "ESYADMINDEPRECATED!!!"); */
>> }
>>
>> is nothing but "systemd support code added to some package".
>
> Can't find the string "ESYADMINDEPRECATED" in the source for
> libsystemd0.

That's not really surprising as there is no source for
'libsystemd0'. It's a part of systemd,

https://packages.debian.org/sid/libsystemd0

and the source of that doesn't contain 'if (init_is_systemd)' either.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 15:37:56 +0300
Mitt Green  wrote:

> KatolaZ  wrote:
> 
> >Sure, but you would agree that rebuilding an increasing number of
> >infected packages in Devuan from upstream would mean a great deal of
> >unnecessary work...  
> 
> 
> It may be unnecessary, that's why I see a couple of ways to solve it:
> 
> 1) Contacting maintainers directly. This can be unfortunate
> considering responses from the community but at the end of the day
> I hope that there are some fellows that are more open to this.
> 
> 2) If #1 fails, cutting Devuan to stable only, which means much less
> work, but also admittedly means lowering the potential user base. Many
> desktop users like myself prefer newer packages and sometimes it is
> crucial to be cutting edge. For example, if one needs latest GTK but
> there is only a version that is two versions behind.

I wouldn't worry too much about any of this, because if we don't hurry
up and put out a production Devuan, the future will be a moot point.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

John Hughes  wrote:



>But why?  What badness does libsystemd0 do?

A simple principle: let the end user decide what he is going to run.
Why maintainers push libsystemd0 dependency when they can forget it.
Compare: Xfce devs (package maintainers) never required systemd to
run, Mate maintainers require it for mate-session-manager and
a screensaver. There is no use for it. When you can live without
it, why pushing?


I clearly understand your point that libsystemd0 is maybe pretty much useless.
Let me go for a fallacy: when dbus or selinux or pulseaudio appeared,
noone would care if they do be having libpulse, libselinux or dbus
on their machine, noone have made a "Debian without pulse" and so on.

>If I wanted to I could run Debian without systemd.  Some things wouldn't 

>work, but as I understand it those things don't work on Devuan either.

>What more choice does Devuan give me?


Devuan works the same way that Debian does. Well, old Debian, like Squeeze.
These ~70 packages that depend on *this* are pretty easy to rebuild
even GNOME3, I still don't why Devuan is only in its alpha, this work could be
done a year ago.Having a working Unstable installation I would say it should 

be in beta at least. The only thing that remains is vdev.
Even though someone wrote on Wikipedia that Devuan provides systemd but as
an optional (init?), it's far from true. It is more freedom of systemd
as I said, considering devuan-baseconf package.

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:06:43 +0100
John Hughes  wrote:

> >   I previously thought that Devuan aim was to remove
> > *any* of systemd components.  
> 
> Funny, I thought Devuan was about choice.

Yes and no. This was discussed several months ago.

A huge priority of Devuan is to allow choice. However, because each
systemd-ism tends to restrict choice, Devuan has decided to simply
throw away the systemd-ism if a) It requires work to fit in, or b) it
hinders any kinds of other choices users might make.

Also there's this: Read the front page of devuan.org and read this:

"We are working towards a stable, production ready fork of Debian
Jessie, free from the entangling web of dependencies imposed by
systemd."

It's clear that, although choice is a huge priority, systemd is and has
always been and will always be a special case.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 18/12/15 17:18, Mitt Green wrote:


No, the actual work on packages that remove libsystemd0 dependency.
I've done quite of it for my machine. Notable examples include
angband repositories apart from Devuan's own. Adam made a big
base removing the dependency.


But why?  What badness does libsystemd0 do?

I can understand working on replacements for libpam-systemd, that is a 
big problem for people who don't want systemd, but libsystemd0 seems 
pretty benign.





Funny, I thought Devuan was about choice.

A choice not to use systemd at all.


If I wanted to I could run Debian without systemd.  Some things wouldn't 
work, but as I understand it those things don't work on Devuan either.  
What more choice does Devuan give me?

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 18/12/15 18:06, Hendrik Boom wrote:

Indeed, both are true.  Devuan is about choice.  Since Debian is quite
clearly providing the alternative of using systemd,


And the alternative of *not* using systemd.


the main effort here is to provide the alternative of not using systemd.
The main part of that effort is to remove systemd.


http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation

What more needs to be done?

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

Tomasz Torcz  writes:

> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 04:27:32PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>> >> you'll note that the
>> >>
>> >> if (init_is_systemd)F {
>> >>   do some systemd stuff;
>> >> } else {
>> >>   /* syslog(LOG_EMERG, "ESYADMINDEPRECATED!!!"); */
>> >> }
>> >>
>> >> is nothing but "systemd support code added to some package".
>> >
>> > Can't find the string "ESYADMINDEPRECATED" in the source for
>> > libsystemd0.
>> 
>> That's not really surprising as there is no source for
>> 'libsystemd0'. It's a part of systemd,
>> 
>> https://packages.debian.org/sid/libsystemd0
>> 
>> and the source of that doesn't contain 'if (init_is_systemd)' either.
>
>   That was pseudo-code.

"Ach nein".
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 05:06:43PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:
> On 18/12/15 16:51, Mitt Green wrote:
>
> >  I previously thought that Devuan aim was to remove
> >*any* of systemd components.
> 
> Funny, I thought Devuan was about choice.

Indeed, both are true.  Devuan is about choice.  Since Debian is quite 
clearly providing the allternative of using systemd, the main effort 
here is to provide tha lternative of not using systemd.  The main part 
of that effort is to remove systemd.

I think there are no serious objections to making systemd truly 
optional, except for the severe limitation of manpower.  That 
trumps everything, and we leave the option of using systemd for Debian 
to work on.

That's how I see it.

-- hendrik

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Go Linux]

On Fri, 12/18/15, John Hughes <j...@atlantech.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Our friendly community
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Friday, December 18, 2015, 11:27 AM

 On 18/12/15 18:06, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> Indeed, both are true.  Devuan is about choice.  Since Debian is quite
> clearly providing the alternative of using systemd,

And the alternative of *not* using systemd.

> the main effort here is to provide the alternative of not using systemd.
> The main part of that effort is to remove systemd.

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation

What more needs to be done?



Why is anyone feeding this troll???

golinux
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 11:22:33 +0100
Didier Kryn  wrote:

> > "I strongly recommend that the people who cannot live with
> > libsystemd0 installed on their systems leave Debian, because their
> > life is going to suck more and more as we will integrate it in
> > every important daemon after jessie will have been released."  
> 
>  The rest of d'Itri's mail is also pretty demonstrative: he
> laughs at being accused of conspiracy, showing he doesn't see what he
> is doing. This a spectacular example of how blind people can be when
> they belong to a group which is in a position to dictate its choices
> to the others. They won't realize their fall untill they reach the
> ground; and, then, they will accuse the others of conspiracy.

Can somebody who still has posting privileges on debian-user please
write a friendly email that, for those who are considering leaving
Debian, either because they don't want gratuitous libsystemd0
dependencies, or they don't want to deal with cavalier attitudes, Devuan
is a great place to continue their computer activities and development?

It would be a horrible waste if people exiting Debian slithered into
the night instead of coming to Devuan.

Unfortunately, I'm unable to post such an email myself (Don Armstrong
saw to that.).

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

Rainer Weikusat  writes:
> Tomasz Torcz  writes:
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 04:27:32PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>>> >> you'll note that the
>>> >>
>>> >> if (init_is_systemd)F {
>>> >>  do some systemd stuff;
>>> >> } else {
>>> >>  /* syslog(LOG_EMERG, "ESYADMINDEPRECATED!!!"); */
>>> >> }
>>> >>
>>> >> is nothing but "systemd support code added to some package".
>>> >
>>> > Can't find the string "ESYADMINDEPRECATED" in the source for
>>> > libsystemd0.
>>> 
>>> That's not really surprising as there is no source for
>>> 'libsystemd0'. It's a part of systemd,
>>> 
>>> https://packages.debian.org/sid/libsystemd0
>>> 
>>> and the source of that doesn't contain 'if (init_is_systemd)' either.
>>
>>   That was pseudo-code.
>
> "Ach nein".

Addition: Google translates this to "Oh no". But it's actually "Really?
Who da thunk!" or something like that.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

Steve Litt  writes:
> On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:39:26 +0100
> John Hughes  wrote:
>
>> On 18/12/15 17:18, Mitt Green wrote:
>> >
>> > No, the actual work on packages that remove libsystemd0 dependency.
>> > I've done quite of it for my machine. Notable examples include
>> > angband repositories apart from Devuan's own. Adam made a big
>> > base removing the dependency.  
>> 
>> But why?  What badness does libsystemd0 do?
>
> I don't know.
>
> Here's what I do know. Before 12/18/2015 (today), not one single email
> from "John Hughes" has been posted to dng@lists.dyne.org. Today
> (12/18/2015), there have been 10 (and counting) "John Hughes" emails,
> most of which tended to say "libsystemd0 isn't that bad",

Assuming systemd is regarded as 'bad' (the term all kinds of
connotations I'd rather avoid in this context), then, libsystemd0 is the
very rotten heart of the badness[*] as it's the glue code enabling
applications to be modified such that they depend on systemd APIs
despite the implementation which is part of the "process-list visible
systemd" can't be used. Instead, an alternate implementation of the
systemd facilities more well-hidden in a shared library will be
supplanted.

[*] Jospeh Conrad allusion entirely intentional.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:39:26 +0100
John Hughes  wrote:

> On 18/12/15 17:18, Mitt Green wrote:
> >
> > No, the actual work on packages that remove libsystemd0 dependency.
> > I've done quite of it for my machine. Notable examples include
> > angband repositories apart from Devuan's own. Adam made a big
> > base removing the dependency.  
> 
> But why?  What badness does libsystemd0 do?

I don't know.

Here's what I do know. Before 12/18/2015 (today), not one single email
from "John Hughes" has been posted to dng@lists.dyne.org. Today
(12/18/2015), there have been 10 (and counting) "John Hughes" emails,
most of which tended to say "libsystemd0 isn't that bad", and one of
which seemed to say that you need remove systemd dependencies only from
*direct* systemdlib0 dependencies, and not the sub-dependencies, and
that makes no sense to me at all.

When Katolaz says something, I listen. He has a > 8 month pattern and
practice of saying correct, informative, and constructive stuff. Ditto
for GoLinux, Anto, Didier, Hendrik, Jaromil, Joel Roth, Jude, Laurent,
Renaud, Svante, and many, many others. 

But when I hear "John Hughes" post several "libsystemd0 isn't that bad"
posts on his very first day, well, Mr. Hughes' credibility descends.
And when his credibility descends, one must consider the possibility
that he's here only to stir up conflict. It's been tried before, and it
works very poorly on this list.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 18/12/15 15:50, Mitt Green wrote:

It's a library whose sole purpose is to make sure that
packages *don't* depend on
systemd.

So, you are saying that libsystemd0 is harmless and it
doesn't mean anything unless you install systemd, systemd-sysv and so on?

Exactly.

(aargh.  resending 'cos got sender address wrong *again*)
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Go Linux]

On Fri, 12/18/15, Arthur Marsh <arthur.ma...@internode.on.net> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Our friendly community
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Friday, December 18, 2015, 9:08 PM
 
 Steve Litt wrote on 19/12/15 04:17:
> On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 11:22:33 +0100
> Didier Kryn <k...@in2p3.fr> wrote:
>
>>> "I strongly recommend that the people who cannot live with
>>> libsystemd0 installed on their systems leave Debian, because their
>>> life is going to suck more and more as we will integrate it in
>>> every important daemon after jessie will have been released."
>>
>>   The rest of d'Itri's mail is also pretty demonstrative: he
>> laughs at being accused of conspiracy, showing he doesn't see what he
>> is doing. This a spectacular example of how blind people can be when
>> they belong to a group which is in a position to dictate its choices
>> to the others. They won't realize their fall untill they reach the
>> ground; and, then, they will accuse the others of conspiracy.
>
> Can somebody who still has posting privileges on debian-user please
> write a friendly email that, for those who are considering leaving
> Debian, either because they don't want gratuitous libsystemd0
> dependencies, or they don't want to deal with cavalier attitudes, Devuan
> is a great place to continue their computer activities and development?
>
> It would be a horrible waste if people exiting Debian slithered into
> the night instead of coming to Devuan.
>
> Unfortunately, I'm unable to post such an email myself (Don Armstrong
> saw to that.).
>
> SteveT

Hi, I might consider it or could just post with a signature that gave a
URL to a systemd-free site.

What would be the best URL to use?

Arthur.



Might be best to wait until the beta is released. Jaromil will likely be 
posting a press release and email announcement that would be a perfect 
invitation.

golinux.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Arthur Marsh]

Steve Litt wrote on 19/12/15 04:17:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 11:22:33 +0100
Didier Kryn  wrote:


"I strongly recommend that the people who cannot live with
libsystemd0 installed on their systems leave Debian, because their
life is going to suck more and more as we will integrate it in
every important daemon after jessie will have been released."


  The rest of d'Itri's mail is also pretty demonstrative: he
laughs at being accused of conspiracy, showing he doesn't see what he
is doing. This a spectacular example of how blind people can be when
they belong to a group which is in a position to dictate its choices
to the others. They won't realize their fall untill they reach the
ground; and, then, they will accuse the others of conspiracy.


Can somebody who still has posting privileges on debian-user please
write a friendly email that, for those who are considering leaving
Debian, either because they don't want gratuitous libsystemd0
dependencies, or they don't want to deal with cavalier attitudes, Devuan
is a great place to continue their computer activities and development?

It would be a horrible waste if people exiting Debian slithered into
the night instead of coming to Devuan.

Unfortunately, I'm unable to post such an email myself (Don Armstrong
saw to that.).

SteveT


Hi, I might consider it or could just post with a signature that gave a 
URL to a systemd-free site.


What would be the best URL to use?

Arthur.


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[DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

Hi,

Not sure how many of you have read this

(https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00641.html)
I can't really understand the reaction.

Saying people to leave Debian; or how is libselinux related to NSA
these days, as far as I understand SELnux is a kernel module (which I don't
have on my machine and I guess Debian doesn't ship kernels with it).

I heard Russ Allbery is one of those mates who resigned recently.
Reasons are unclear to me.

Regards,

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

Mitt Green  writes:

[...]

> I heard Russ Allbery is one of those mates who resigned recently.
> Reasons are unclear to me.

A somewhat loaded "executive summary" of his statement could be:
"Considering that systemd was forced into Debian, I really don't see why
 I would want to bother was all this boring tech stuff any longer".
 
 
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 18:28:45 + (UTC)
Mitt Green  wrote:

> > A somewhat loaded "executive summary" of his statement could be:
> > "Considering that systemd was forced into Debian, I really don't
> > see why I would want to bother was all this boring tech stuff any
> > longer".  
> 
> 
> From what I've read, the bunch of people resigned (including Ian
> Jackson) and all of these resignations are at least remotely related
> to TC's decisions regarding systemd.
> 
> Mitt

I wonder if Devuan could recruit some of the massive brainpower exiting
the Debian project?
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

> A somewhat loaded "executive summary" of his statement could be:
> "Considering that systemd was forced into Debian, I really don't see why
> I would want to bother was all this boring tech stuff any longer".


From what I've read, the bunch of people resigned (including Ian Jackson)
and all of these resignations are at least remotely related to TC's decisions
regarding systemd.

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Go Linux]

On Thu, 12/17/15, Rainer Weikusat <rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Our friendly community
 To: "Dng" <dng@lists.dyne.org>
 Date: Thursday, December 17, 2015, 11:46 AM
 
 Mitt Green <mitt_gr...@yahoo.com> writes:
 
 [...]


 
Marco d'Itri's response to that post is illuminating:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00644.html

"I strongly recommend that the people who cannot live with libsystemd0 
installed on their systems leave Debian, because their life is going to 
suck more and more as we will integrate it in every important daemon 
after jessie will have been released."

Sounds like a lot of work for devuan devs.  :(  Hopefully, there will be a way 
to auto-remove that dependency . . .
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

> Marco d'Itri's response to that post is illuminating:
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00644.html
> 
> "I strongly recommend that the people who cannot live with libsystemd0 
> installed on their systems leave Debian, because their life is going to 
> suck more and more as we will integrate it in every important daemon 
> after jessie will have been released."
> 
> Sounds like a lot of work for devuan devs.  :(  Hopefully, there will be a 
> way to auto-remove that dependency . . .

sounds like a lot of people will be on the move .. someday.


-- 
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with 
the NSA.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2015 17 Dec 12:45 -0600, Steve Litt wrote:
> I wonder if Devuan could recruit some of the massive brainpower exiting
> the Debian project?

Did Russ actually leave the project or just the TC.  I didn't see
anything recent (past couple of months) that hints at anything.  I no
longer follow Planet Debian so I'm rather out of the loop these days
unless something gets posted here.

I hope that some migration occurs once Devuan Jessie 1.0 is released.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 13:41:41 -0500, Steve wrote in message 
<20151217134141.2284d...@mydesk.domain.cxm>:

> On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 18:28:45 + (UTC)
> Mitt Green  wrote:
> 
> > > A somewhat loaded "executive summary" of his statement could be:
> > > "Considering that systemd was forced into Debian, I really don't
> > > see why I would want to bother was all this boring tech stuff any
> > > longer".  
> > 
> > 
> > From what I've read, the bunch of people resigned (including Ian
> > Jackson) and all of these resignations are at least remotely related
> > to TC's decisions regarding systemd.
> > 
> > Mitt
> 
> I wonder if Devuan could recruit some of the massive brainpower
> exiting the Debian project?

..one way would be answer mirroring questions, e.g. how much disk 
space do I need to convert my Debian mirror to a Devuan mirror?

..I understand you have no rsync servers going, but e.g. debmirror
works with http transport.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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