Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 01:55:02AM +, Isaac Dunham wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 07:10:59PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 10:27:23 -0500 Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 09:57:29AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: If you're talking about Devuan, yes, it is! I got on the Devuan mailing list just to escape systemd, and have been pleasantly surprised by how Devuan is re-architecting everything. Does that meerly reflect how systemd is dearchitecting everything? Or are there things being rearchitected that aren't systemd issues? -- hendrik Well, first of all, understand the only Devuan I've run is Valentines, and I didn't peer too deeply under the hood. My opinions come from things the Devuan Developers say on this list. I've seen a replacement for udev which, if I'm not mistaken, can simply be substituted for udev or eudev. snip As far as I can tell, nothing's available *yet* that can *simply* be substituted for (e)udev. As I understand it, it's necessary to replace udev -- but is it necessary to replace eudev? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 08:24:56 -0500 Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 01:55:02AM +, Isaac Dunham wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 07:10:59PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 10:27:23 -0500 Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 09:57:29AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: If you're talking about Devuan, yes, it is! I got on the Devuan mailing list just to escape systemd, and have been pleasantly surprised by how Devuan is re-architecting everything. Does that meerly reflect how systemd is dearchitecting everything? Or are there things being rearchitected that aren't systemd issues? -- hendrik Well, first of all, understand the only Devuan I've run is Valentines, and I didn't peer too deeply under the hood. My opinions come from things the Devuan Developers say on this list. I've seen a replacement for udev which, if I'm not mistaken, can simply be substituted for udev or eudev. snip As far as I can tell, nothing's available *yet* that can *simply* be substituted for (e)udev. As I understand it, it's necessary to replace udev -- but is it necessary to replace eudev? -- hendrik I understood that both vdev and eudev are aftermarket replacements for udev, and the three can bolt-in replace each other for the purposes of getting devices initialized, though only udev does us the favor of linking to systemd. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
its a general philosophy of design and openness FYI, I'm busy on such a topic for my Ph.D dissertation and will be happy to share the results once finished. and I ll be happy to read and comment ;) it is more about principles. Let's list some: - freedom of choice, - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum I keep those 3 for my idea of a roots linux foundation let me recommend you use the term GNU/Linux. Probably even more than the Linux kernel development, it is the GNU project that kept alive such principles of design in user-space. yes you are rigt and I know it; i ve been trying to say gnu/inux for years, but not everything is gnu on this linux system . . . perhaps I should say FOSS/linux or libre/linux . . .or, well, now its going to be systemd-linux . . . also please consider the Dyne.org foundation as an ally in your quest to start a new foundation, or perhaps as an existing device you can use to bring forward the activities you intend to promote with your idea of a foundation. Managing an institutional shell for free software projects is an effort that can well be shared, if transparence on intentions and coincidence of ideals is there. for now its just an idea I have, something I feel logical and necessary , trying to gather the people from devuan, from gentoo, from eudev, mdev, consolekit2, trios, trinity and probably many more projects. If you like to share, I'd be interested in knowing what you envision would be the activities such a foundation should carry on. Even when talking about philosophy and design I think it is very important to bring examples and concrete projects that are vectors for people's action. as I said its just an idea i want to share, hoping that more people will think its something that could be useful for the good cause. at the very least, i think the goal and activities of this possible foundation should be : * trying to help funding necessary developments, through sponsors and donations * trying to get people from different projects to work together on the necessary alternatives, trying to gather efforts one one udev alternative ( eudev ? ) , on one logind atlternative ( consolekit2 ? ), on one init system alternative ( openrc ? ) * trying to better define the goals and philosophy we defend ( I d say kiss, architecture allowing alternatives most everywhere, one small brick doing only one thing but doing well, easy to understand and customize stuff, what else ? ) once again those are just personal ideas, the foundation could be whatever people think could be useful or necessary for the cause, i dont even plan to make this foundation myself, I just want people to think of it ;) great idea, KISS is a short and simple word that could summarize most of the important ideas, a kiss, for you, from the roots of linux could be an idea for a logo ! I guess this isn't the best way to introduce Devuan to the public: its a bit too pretextuous to incarnate the roots of the Linux kernel development. well we could say the roots of UNIX. Once again, i have to admin when i say linux, i dont think of the kernel, but as the whole system the is a new unix, i say linux like you could say solaris or aix We are still struggling to produce an alpha and I wish our communication reflects the current phase of the progress rather than more ideals than those we already stated in the public and that also raised some educated skepticism and criticism as they weren't yet based on concrete achievements. agreed, i m anxiously waiting for a beta to try and test on my thinkpad laptop, after that i plan to contribute by maintaining a grsec kernel. Said that, I hope this message does not discourage you, but helps channel the enthusiasm in good productive ways. not at all, intelligent criticism is always welcome, and anyway . . .even insults cant discourage me when I think something is fair/rightful/needed ;) but once again its just an idea i want to share, hoping other people will be interested. ciao -- Jaromil, Dyne.org Free Software Foundry (est. 2000) We are free to share code and we code to share freedom Web: https://j.dyne.org Contact: https://j.dyne.org/c.vcf GPG: 6113 D89C A825 C5CE DD02 C872 73B3 5DA5 4ACB 7D10 Confidential communications: https://keybase.io/jaromil ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
( renaming the thread ) I think this question goes together with the badge or logo question. It does ! It must go beyond sans-systemd; exactly its much more than just sans systemd, its a general philosophy of design and openness it is more about principles. Let's list some: - freedom of choice, - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum I keep those 3 for my idea of a roots linux foundation Don't know if KISS goes into details, but maybe it could inspire the logo. great idea, KISS is a short and simple word that could summarize most of the important ideas, a kiss, for you, from the roots of linux could be an idea for a logo ! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
dear Neo Futur, On Tue, 24 Feb 2015, Neo Futur wrote: its a general philosophy of design and openness FYI, I'm busy on such a topic for my Ph.D dissertation and will be happy to share the results once finished. it is more about principles. Let's list some: - freedom of choice, - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum I keep those 3 for my idea of a roots linux foundation let me recommend you use the term GNU/Linux. Probably even more than the Linux kernel development, it is the GNU project that kept alive such principles of design in user-space. also please consider the Dyne.org foundation as an ally in your quest to start a new foundation, or perhaps as an existing device you can use to bring forward the activities you intend to promote with your idea of a foundation. Managing an institutional shell for free software projects is an effort that can well be shared, if transparence on intentions and coincidence of ideals is there. If you like to share, I'd be interested in knowing what you envision would be the activities such a foundation should carry on. Even when talking about philosophy and design I think it is very important to bring examples and concrete projects that are vectors for people's action. great idea, KISS is a short and simple word that could summarize most of the important ideas, a kiss, for you, from the roots of linux could be an idea for a logo ! I guess this isn't the best way to introduce Devuan to the public: its a bit too pretextuous to incarnate the roots of the Linux kernel development. We are still struggling to produce an alpha and I wish our communication reflects the current phase of the progress rather than more ideals than those we already stated in the public and that also raised some educated skepticism and criticism as they weren't yet based on concrete achievements. Said that, I hope this message does not discourage you, but helps channel the enthusiasm in good productive ways. ciao -- Jaromil, Dyne.org Free Software Foundry (est. 2000) We are free to share code and we code to share freedom Web: https://j.dyne.org Contact: https://j.dyne.org/c.vcf GPG: 6113 D89C A825 C5CE DD02 C872 73B3 5DA5 4ACB 7D10 Confidential communications: https://keybase.io/jaromil signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
Le 24/02/2015 10:49, Jaromil a écrit : dear Neo Futur, On Tue, 24 Feb 2015, Neo Futur wrote: its a general philosophy of design and openness FYI, I'm busy on such a topic for my Ph.D dissertation and will be happy to share the results once finished. it is more about principles. Let's list some: - freedom of choice, - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum I keep those 3 for my idea of a roots linux foundation let me recommend you use the term GNU/Linux. Probably even more than the Linux kernel development, it is the GNU project that kept alive such principles of design in user-space. also please consider the Dyne.org foundation as an ally in your quest to start a new foundation, or perhaps as an existing device you can use to bring forward the activities you intend to promote with your idea of a foundation. Managing an institutional shell for free software projects is an effort that can well be shared, if transparence on intentions and coincidence of ideals is there. If you like to share, I'd be interested in knowing what you envision would be the activities such a foundation should carry on. Even when talking about philosophy and design I think it is very important to bring examples and concrete projects that are vectors for people's action. great idea, KISS is a short and simple word that could summarize most of the important ideas, a kiss, for you, from the roots of linux could be an idea for a logo ! I guess this isn't the best way to introduce Devuan to the public: its a bit too pretextuous to incarnate the roots of the Linux kernel development. We are still struggling to produce an alpha and I wish our communication reflects the current phase of the progress rather than more ideals than those we already stated in the public and that also raised some educated skepticism and criticism as they weren't yet based on concrete achievements. Said that, I hope this message does not discourage you, but helps channel the enthusiasm in good productive ways. ciao Sorry guys, I think I introduced confusion with the word logo. This is because there was a previous discussion about a badge, which I understood as something like Powered by XX, GNU inside, Viewable with any browser, or POSIX-compliant. I was not speaking of Devuan's logo at all. Inevitably, the idea of a badge leads to a foundation entitled to stamp distros with the badge. I am wondering if only a clear phrasing of the principles would be enough, without the impediments and the sectarism of a foundation. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 03:44:56 -0500 Neo Futur d...@ww7.be wrote: ( renaming the thread ) I think this question goes together with the badge or logo question. It does ! It must go beyond sans-systemd; exactly its much more than just sans systemd, its a general philosophy of design and openness If you're talking about Devuan, yes, it is! I got on the Devuan mailing list just to escape systemd, and have been pleasantly surprised by how Devuan is re-architecting everything. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 09:57:29AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: If you're talking about Devuan, yes, it is! I got on the Devuan mailing list just to escape systemd, and have been pleasantly surprised by how Devuan is re-architecting everything. Does that meerly reflect how systemd is dearchitecting everything? Or are there things being rearchitected that aren't systemd issues? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 10:27:23 -0500 Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 09:57:29AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: If you're talking about Devuan, yes, it is! I got on the Devuan mailing list just to escape systemd, and have been pleasantly surprised by how Devuan is re-architecting everything. Does that meerly reflect how systemd is dearchitecting everything? Or are there things being rearchitected that aren't systemd issues? -- hendrik Well, first of all, understand the only Devuan I've run is Valentines, and I didn't peer too deeply under the hood. My opinions come from things the Devuan Developers say on this list. I've seen a replacement for udev which, if I'm not mistaken, can simply be substituted for udev or eudev. I've heard talk of ways to eliminate the need for dbus. Depending on other stuff, I might be involved in a no-dbus replacement for NetworkManager. Lots of similar stuff. All of this points to a distro that's friendly to an architecture of thin linkages between components, which is how I like it. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
