Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[karl]

Enrico Weigelt:
> On 01.07.2016 12:13, Adam Borowski wrote:
...
> > There's a bug in evdev: normally, when a process listens to cooked events
> > (keyboard, etc), they get delivered only when the right VT is active.  Not
> > so much with raw events: once a process gets hold of such a device, it will
> > receive events even when VT was switched.
> 
> What's the exact difference between cooked and raw events ?
...

Since it is a terminal, probably this:

$ man stty | grep -A1 cooked
   cooked same as brkint ignpar istrip icrnl ixon opost isig icanon, eof 
and eol characters to their default values

   -cooked
  same as raw
--
   -raw   same as cooked

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

---
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Sweden
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 01.07.2016 12:13, Adam Borowski wrote:

> Turns out this remark was important: some more clue here would be nice.
> Tobias Hunger just shown me a nasty issue (he's banned from dng).

Why is he banned ?

> There's a bug in evdev: normally, when a process listens to cooked events
> (keyboard, etc), they get delivered only when the right VT is active.  Not
> so much with raw events: once a process gets hold of such a device, it will
> receive events even when VT was switched.

What's the exact difference between cooked and raw events ?
Does that have anything to do w/ the post-processing in libinput ?

> Listening to events regardless of VT is needed for some obscure inputs, but
> for typical ones (keyboard, mouse, joypad, wacom, etc) they should go
> strictly to the active VT.

Where is that switching / routing handled ? In the kernel or userland ?

> Currently, programs that use raw events can only consciously ignore those
> they shouldn't receive.  Which is easy to get wrong, either accidentally or
> maliciously.  For the former, Mir guys did it, for the latter, running Xorg
> as an unprivileged user means easy LD_PRELOAD/ptrace fun.
> 
> More info in the commit message of
> https://git.kernel.org/linus/c7dc65737c9a607d3e6f8478659876074ad129b8

hmm, that means that when switching back to a VT, the corresponding
process needs to get fresh fds passed in.

> Obviously, systemd guys instead of the obvious fix of censoring events based
> on the active VT invented a yet another daemon (part of logind) that
> actively does revocation over dbus.  I already see two potential ways to
> subvert that (as in "a vague idea" not "working exploit" though): VT
> switches are atomic, manual revocation anything but.

Yeah, if the evdev should be *bound* to an VT, that IMHO should be done
atomically in the kernel.

But if we're already at that point, we perhaps should rethink the whole
idea of VT first - how exactly is it defined, what exactly belongs to
it ? This gets particularily interesting for multiscreen applications.

What happends with the secondary screens when a VT is switched ?

Rethinking that further, the best way IMHO would be binding all FBs
to their own VT and then perhaps bind them together to VVTs ... ;-o
hmm, it's getting complicated ...


--mtx


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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Adam Borowski]

On Fri, Jul 01, 2016 at 06:00:03AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 09:09:17PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
> wrote:
> > Does anyone know what these pieces of code *actually* do ?
> 
> As no one more knowledgeable responded, here's my understanding:

Turns out this remark was important: some more clue here would be nice.
Tobias Hunger just shown me a nasty issue (he's banned from dng).

> The access is usually done via a device node.  Nodes which require root/cap
> can be used to damage the system in some way, be it subverting security,
> crashing the machine or perhaps even physically damaging the hardware.
> Thus, we need to somehow let the X server open those nodes.
> 
> This can be done in following ways:
> a> by making the X server setuid.  This is the old way.
> b> using a setuid helper
> c> having systemd-logind open the node and pass a file descriptor
> d> having a smart /dev

There's a bug in evdev: normally, when a process listens to cooked events
(keyboard, etc), they get delivered only when the right VT is active.  Not
so much with raw events: once a process gets hold of such a device, it will
receive events even when VT was switched.

Listening to events regardless of VT is needed for some obscure inputs, but
for typical ones (keyboard, mouse, joypad, wacom, etc) they should go
strictly to the active VT.

Currently, programs that use raw events can only consciously ignore those
they shouldn't receive.  Which is easy to get wrong, either accidentally or
maliciously.  For the former, Mir guys did it, for the latter, running Xorg
as an unprivileged user means easy LD_PRELOAD/ptrace fun.

More info in the commit message of
https://git.kernel.org/linus/c7dc65737c9a607d3e6f8478659876074ad129b8


Obviously, systemd guys instead of the obvious fix of censoring events based
on the active VT invented a yet another daemon (part of logind) that
actively does revocation over dbus.  I already see two potential ways to
subvert that (as in "a vague idea" not "working exploit" though): VT
switches are atomic, manual revocation anything but.

But even if I really hate their solution, the problem remains real.


And I don't have enough clue to comfortably fix this myself; my only commits
anywhere near VT are to ANSI code handling.


Meow!
-- 
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 28.01.2016 17:16, Adam Borowski wrote:



Does anyone know what these pieces of code *actually* do ?


--mtx

-- 

mit freundlichen Grüßen
--
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metux IT consulting
+49-151-27565287
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Daniel Reurich]

On 29/01/16 23:07, richard lucassen wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:54:22 +

> I'm very pleased to see that someone is building a libsystemdfree 
> xorg.

> But what about security updates?

We will track debians security updates and where an update to a package
that we maintain comes out, we will release a security patch for our
package.  I'm keen to see if we can collaborate directly with debians
security team on this and in return help with security for both
distro's.  We would like our own security team though, so any volunteers
should get in touch #devuan-security is the irc channel, and email me
about further details.

> And what about future versions?  Who is going to do that?
Post release 1.0 we will start working more on the organisational side
and put together various teams to organise releases, security,
infrastructure management etc.

> What about the robustness of Devuan?
At the moment it's robustness is pretty tightly tied to what goes on in
Debian, and for stable this works very well.  For testing unstable,
experimental this is harder and we will need to largely rely on
automatations to keep track and prevent breakage.

> Don't get me wrong, I really like the Devuan project, but wouldn't it
> be better to create a "systemv.debian.org", a sub version of debian,
> like the "backports.debian.org"? If Devuan is part of the Debian
> project, we will have much more influence on what's going on. Maybe
> it's better to build an extension to Debian than to build our own
> infrastructure.

I think this is pretty much impossible because Debian is broken from the
top down.  It no longer cares about the users and is now clearly
developer egocentric.  The users who aren't DD's are without voice and
voting power.  This is where Debian has failed, because it's developers
have lost sight of the heart of what Debian was from a social and
collaborative and community oriented project to one that has become a
self sustaining bureaucracy which will continue to operate even if there
is nobody using it.  It's as if they think that users are just an
annoyance...

> 
> I fear many people won't agree with me, but I think it's better to 
> cooperate with Debian than to fight Debian.

We can cooperate with them where there is benefit, but many attempts to
engage at various levels has resulted in insult and derision.

> Debian has a nice infrastructure. If we will be able to build a 
> Debian extension and not a Debian fork, I think we can all win.

There's nothing particularly interesting in their infrastructure that we
can't replicate relatively easily, the biggest resource issue being time.

> On one side we will be able to use Debian's infrastructure and have 
> influence on what's going on there, on the other side Debian will 
> have a nice and fully supported non-systemd version.

You seem to have forgotten just how much anomosity there was during the
last days around the GR failure and the decision to fork.

Debian as a project doesn't want a "fully supported non-systemd
version".  If it did, we wouldn't have needed to fork.


-- 
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722



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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Robert Storey]

> From: Clarke Sideroad <clarke.sider...@gmail.com>
> To: "dng@lists.dyne.org" <dng@lists.dyne.org>
> Subject: Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires
> libsystemd0
> Message-ID: <56ac51e1.6020...@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> In a similar vein Calculate Linux has IMO well put together group of
> versions based on and compliant with Gentoo with rather elaborate Layman
> overlays, openRC, eudev and no systemd.
> Simple setup and install, probably easier than Debian, the install
> process does not take long unlike the parent Gentoo.
> It also has an updater.
> If one uses the somewhat frowned upon Porthole package manager things
> are almost as easy as Synaptic or at least like Synaptic you can quickly
> see what is available.
> Other Gentoo Layman overlays can be added, but of course at that point
> one must be more careful as it is similar to adding outside repositories
> in a Debian based distro

Thanks for mentioning Calculate Linux. While waiting for Devuan to be
released, I've been looking for something else non-systemd to play with. At
the moment, I'm getting by with antiX, but Calculate could be interesting.
I'm downloading Calculate right now, and at some point I'll write up my
experience with it

Again, still hoping to see a Devuan beta soon. Also waiting for a
devastating zero-day exploit that will leave the systemd tribe with egg on
their faces...not that I'd really want to see that, cough, cough.

cheers,
Robert
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[richard lucassen]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:46:20 +
KatolaZ  wrote:

> And what is exactly your plan to have Devuan somehow merged "into
> Debian", given that any attempt to criticise, even in a constructive
> manner, any systemd-related stuff is immediately labelled as
> "trolling" in debian-user (just to make an example)?

That is why I mentioned "silent diplomacy". It makes no sense to start
a flame war on a list populated by a "systemd " crowd. I have
nothing against systemd, if someone wants to use it, it's ok for me.
There is more than . That's all I want to say.

> What is the choice offered by Debian once they have decided that
> systemd has to be a not-unpluggable component of a Debian system?

For the moment I'm still able to run Debian systemd free, apart from
libsystemd0. And unfortunately I am not able to predict the future of
Debian, nor the future of systemd.

> How could we dream of having a systemd-free Debian if the only
> alternative offered by Debian, and accepted by the TC, is
> systemd-o-la-muerte?

Silent diplomacy is the keyword IMHO. The only argument is "freedom of
choice". The problem is that such a discussion often ends up
technical arguments against  (which is irrelevant)
or emotional arguments (fuck Poettering) or either ends up in Godwin's
Law. The end of the story is that nobody wins.

> If Debian hadn't started, 22 years ago, as a "NeverHeardOf" operating
> system, today you would not have the problem of migrating hundred of
> servers from Debian...

It will take a long time before Devuan deserves and gets the credits
necessary for corporate use. How many people work on Devuan? How many
people work on Debian? The difference is huge at the moment. Maybe
Devuan will be the biggest distro in 5 years. Maybe Devuan will be
burried in five years. Noone knows.

The only way to win something is to talk Freedom Of Choice Language,
not systemd bashing. Systemd is there, accept that it exists. Maybe
within a short time there will be a zero day vulnerabilty in systemd and
half the internet gets exploited and systemd will melt down by it's own
structure. I have no idea. I'll tell you in five years from now.

R.

-- 
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http://contact.xaq.nl/
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 01:21:07PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> richard lucassen  writes:
> > Daniel Reurich  wrote:
> >
> >> > I'm still running Debian but with the angband.pl repositories and
> >> > this marks another stage of being unable to avoid libsystemd0 in
> >> > Debian.
> >> 
> >> Not yet, but it's noted and I'll work on that next week once work has
> >> settled down a bit...
> >
> > I'm not a programmer, maybe I'm saying something incredibly stupid, so
> > please don't shoot me, but wouldn't it be a better idea to build a
> > Devuan libsystemd0 that fakes the real libsystemd0 instead of adapting
> > all programs to not using libsystemd0?
> 
> This depends on how the library is being used. If it's just a spurious
> dependency, a simple dummy will work in place of it. But this usually
> won't be the case as the express purpose of libsystemd is to enable code
> to be written/ changed to use systemd APIs instead of the facilities
> systemd uses to implement these by providing a second implementation of
> the systemd API in a library.
> 
> For the given case, this means that the Debian package will enable X
> server systemd support unconditionally when building for a Linux-based
> system and the corresponding facilities are either supposed to be
> provided by system-alpha, the set of programs controlling the system, or
> by systemd-quisling, the secondary (and presumably somewhat sub-par)
> implementation in the library.
> 
> Until Debian formally ejects it's non-Linux sub-projects, any such
> attempts are restricted to being more-or-less elaborate nuisances
> created by people with too much time on their hands.

Do you mean "ejects its non-systemd subprojects"?  Or do I misunderstand you?

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 02:45:34PM +0100, richard lucassen wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:46:20 +
> KatolaZ  wrote:
> 
> > And what is exactly your plan to have Devuan somehow merged "into
> > Debian", given that any attempt to criticise, even in a constructive
> > manner, any systemd-related stuff is immediately labelled as
> > "trolling" in debian-user (just to make an example)?
> 
> That is why I mentioned "silent diplomacy". It makes no sense to start
> a flame war on a list populated by a "systemd " crowd. I have
> nothing against systemd, if someone wants to use it, it's ok for me.
> There is more than . That's all I want to say.
> 
> > What is the choice offered by Debian once they have decided that
> > systemd has to be a not-unpluggable component of a Debian system?
> 
> For the moment I'm still able to run Debian systemd free, apart from
> libsystemd0. And unfortunately I am not able to predict the future of
> Debian, nor the future of systemd.
> 
> > How could we dream of having a systemd-free Debian if the only
> > alternative offered by Debian, and accepted by the TC, is
> > systemd-o-la-muerte?
> 
> Silent diplomacy is the keyword IMHO. The only argument is "freedom of
> choice". The problem is that such a discussion often ends up
> technical arguments against  (which is irrelevant)
> or emotional arguments (fuck Poettering) or either ends up in Godwin's
> Law. The end of the story is that nobody wins.
> 
> > If Debian hadn't started, 22 years ago, as a "NeverHeardOf" operating
> > system, today you would not have the problem of migrating hundred of
> > servers from Debian...
> 
> It will take a long time before Devuan deserves and gets the credits
> necessary for corporate use. How many people work on Devuan? How many
> people work on Debian? The difference is huge at the moment. Maybe
> Devuan will be the biggest distro in 5 years. Maybe Devuan will be
> burried in five years. Noone knows.

There are many Debian developers who maintain packages that have 
nothing to do with systemd, and who do not entangle their packages with 
systemd.  They may not be working for systemd specifically, but they 
can indded be considered to be working to our benefit.  I'm sure they 
are aware that their work is used by many, many Debian derivatives.

Without them, out project would be doomed.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Adam Borowski]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 09:15:18AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 05:16:04PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > I just uploaded deinfested xserver-xorg packages, but I don't have the time
> > right now to test on diverse setups.  All I tested is my home desktop, with
> > nvidia proprietary.  Thus, it'd be interesting to hear if there are any new
> > failures for other people.
> 
> About the infested xserver-org packages:
> 
>   Were they infested upstream by the xorg developers, or were they 
> infested by Debian? 

Upstream allows building with or without systemd, with two switches:
  --enable-systemd-logind
  --with-systemd-daemon

Debian turned these switches on.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 05:16:04PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 09:33:52PM +1030, Arthur Marsh wrote:
> > Hi, has anyone built the xserver-xorg-core from Debian unstable without
> > libsystemd0?
> 
> libsystemd0 is benign.  The new dependency on libpam-systemd is worse, as it
> actually breaks things if systemd is absent.
> 
> On the other hand, rebuilding with --disable-systemd-logind
> --without-systemd-daemon seems to work.
> 
> > I'm still running Debian but with the angband.pl repositories and this marks
> > another stage of being unable to avoid libsystemd0 in Debian.
> 
> I just uploaded deinfested xserver-xorg packages, but I don't have the time
> right now to test on diverse setups.  All I tested is my home desktop, with
> nvidia proprietary.  Thus, it'd be interesting to hear if there are any new
> failures for other people.

About the infested xserver-org packages:

  Were they infested upstream by the xorg developers, or were they 
infested by Debian? 

Or is the situation vastly more complicated than this?

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[richard lucassen]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:09:53 -0500
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> There are many Debian developers who maintain packages that have 
> nothing to do with systemd, and who do not entangle their packages
> with systemd.  They may not be working for systemd specifically, but
> they can indded be considered to be working to our benefit.  I'm sure
> they are aware that their work is used by many, many Debian
> derivatives.

Oh yes, sure. But for how long? And which packages? Suppose "cat" is
dependent op systemd, that's more evil than the NeverHeardOf package.
 
> Without them, out project would be doomed.

A thing that remains, as you pointed out in your other post: was
systemd inserted by Debian or by the original developers? And this is
only the xorg package, but there are many, many other packages out
there. Who is going to maintain that without the coorporation of
Debian? Who is responsible for the security updates? Those questions
need to be answered.

I'd rather go for a, like Tobias suggested, a libsystemd telling
the package that is linked against, that it runs on a non-systemd
system. But maybe that solution is too simple, clear and wrong. And I
simply miss the skills to give the correct answer to that question.

And yes, there is "systemd" in the name. Sorry for that ;-)

R.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:07:42 +0100, richard wrote in message 
<20160129110742.d8df6c714fb85bdb6e197...@lucassen.org>:

> On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:54:22 +
> Rainer Weikusat  wrote:
> 
> > >> The issue is that many people in devuan are so allergic to
> > >> systemd that they will not tolerate a library with that string
> > >> in its name.
> > >
> > > Ah, I didn't know that. Thnx :)
> > 
> > Considering that I wrote that in reply to you and also in reply to
> > the other person who asserted "Don't worry. We just have you best
> > interest in mind!" why was there any uncertainty of the technical
> > purpose of libsystemd?
> 
> Now you're suggesting that libsystemd is all CSS. Any programmer can
> have a look at the sources to see if Tobias is right or not.
> 
> But anyway, I will not say that you're wrong, I just don't know. But I
> think that all sorts of conspiracy theories will not help us any
> further.
> 
> I'm very pleased to see that someone is building a libsystemdfree
> xorg. But what about security updates? And what about future
> versions? Who is going to do that? What about the robustness of
> Devuan? Don't get me wrong, I really like the Devuan project, but
> wouldn't it be better to create a "systemv.debian.org", a sub version
> of debian, like the "backports.debian.org"? If Devuan is part of the
> Debian project, we will have much more influence on what's going on.
> Maybe it's better to build an extension to Debian than to build our
> own infrastructure.
> 
> I fear many people won't agree with me, but I think it's better to
> cooperate with Debian than to fight Debian. Debian has a nice
> infrastructure. If we will be able to build a Debian extension and not
> a Debian fork, I think we can all win. On one side we will be able to
> use Debian's infrastructure and have influence on what's going on
> there, on the other side Debian will have a nice and fully supported
> non-systemd version.

..I totally agree it would be nice.  Then again there's that 
zeal on both sides, and that KenThompsonsque opacity on the 
systemd side (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TheKenThompsonHack ),
e.g. I don't understand why the systemd coups were neccessary,
if systemd is any good, it should win on its technological 
merits and on its performance, and not on its banana republic 
politics.

..so either way, I guess we should try provide a viable 
non-systemd back-up infrastructure.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Simon Hobson]

richard lucassen  wrote:

> I'm very pleased to see that someone is building a libsystemdfree xorg.
> But what about security updates? And what about future versions? Who is
> going to do that? What about the robustness of Devuan? Don't get me
> wrong, I really like the Devuan project, but wouldn't it be better to
> create a "systemv.debian.org", a sub version of debian, like the
> "backports.debian.org"? If Devuan is part of the Debian project, we
> will have much more influence on what's going on. Maybe it's better to
> build an extension to Debian than to build our own infrastructure.
> 
> I fear many people won't agree with me, but I think it's better to
> cooperate with Debian than to fight Debian. Debian has a nice
> infrastructure. If we will be able to build a Debian extension and not
> a Debian fork, I think we can all win. On one side we will be able to
> use Debian's infrastructure and have influence on what's going on
> there, on the other side Debian will have a nice and fully supported
> non-systemd version.

I agree with you, for so many reasons it would make more sense - as you point 
out, Debian already has all the infrastructure in place to support that. One of 
the concerns I have with Devuan is that there's a shortish window (basically 
until Debian Wheezy is out of support) to get a "viable"* project up and 
running - after which the boat has been missed for a lot of potential users*.

I would add that if there were an official systemd-free Debian subproject, then 
it would be easier to get package maintainers to support non-systemd versions.
At present, the attitude from some of them is "systemd is the default, if you 
don't install libsystemd0 then tough " - the ClamAV guys were "fairly 
intolerant" of suggestions that they could make that a soft dependency ! Though 
they still did a Wheezy-security update so already have two versions of the 
package (with and without libsystemd0 requirement.


I can see several reasons it won't/can't happen - all political !

1) Some people here are so "entrenched" in their beliefs that such "consorting 
with the enemy" won't be popular.
2) Some people in Debian are so entrenched that such a heretic sub-project 
would not be allowed.
3) It would appear that some people here are persona non-gratis on Debian 
mailing lists (I don't know why, I can only assume for being vocally 
anti-systemd), that doesn't bode well for them being accepted back.


* For a lot of people, there are PHBs to keep happy. If the PHB expects stuff 
to be a supported version, from a recognised distro, with proper package 
repositories - then the current setup where it's a mix of Debian and "some guys 
personal repository"** then that won't cut it.

** Apologies if I'm wrong, but that's how it looks at the moment.

It would be nice if we could avoid the corporate politics, but for most, that's 
not possible.

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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[richard lucassen]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:23:14 -0300
Marlon Nunes  wrote:

> This was already discussed, Devuan is a new project with their own 
> ideas. Please look at the mailing list archives. The Devuan is moving 
> forward to put in practice their own ideas. So forget about Debian.

I know that it was discussed, but if Devuan wants to grow it should be
able to offer a stable and well maintained repository. That is not the
case at the moment, it's all dependent on a few people who are willing
to put their precious time into Devuan. But will this be enough? Devuan
is nice for a few nerds and in alpha stage, but I will not migrate
corporate systems to Devuan as long as Devuan is a hobby project
without a well maintained and broadly supported infrastructure. I have
some workstations running Debian testing without systemd (but with
libsystemd0) and I can easily switch to Devuan (I have successfully
migrated one desktop). But apart from these workstations, I also run
a few hunderd non-X Debian systems (all systemd free) and I'd like to
keep them systemd free. But I cannot simply migrate these systems to
Devuan just because Devuan's base is too small, for production
environments I simply cannot rely on Devuan for the moment.

That this issue has been discussed over and over again is not a reason
to forget about Debian. If you can't beat then, join them.

All controversies are of a political character (read: emotional
character) and neither Devuan nor Debian gets better that way.

I think Devuan will be much more succesfull as a part of Debian than as
a stand alone distro. We will be number 2067 on the list of
"NeverHeardOf" distro's. The time ROI is very low if Devuan is staying
alone IMHO.

We need (silent) diplomacy, not anti-Debian oratory. It's all about
freedom of choice, nothing more, nothing less. If mister Poettering
suffers from some form of narcism, it is not a reason for us to behave
the same way.

"winner of the war" has been proven to be a contraditio in terminis.

R.

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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Marlon Nunes]

This was already discussed, Devuan is a new project with their own 
ideas. Please look at the mailing list archives. The Devuan is moving 
forward to put in practice their own ideas. So forget about Debian.


On 2016-01-29 07:07, richard lucassen wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:54:22 +
Rainer Weikusat  wrote:


>> The issue is that many people in devuan are so allergic to systemd
>> that they will not tolerate a library with that string in its name.
>
> Ah, I didn't know that. Thnx :)

Considering that I wrote that in reply to you and also in reply to the
other person who asserted "Don't worry. We just have you best interest
in mind!" why was there any uncertainty of the technical purpose of
libsystemd?


Now you're suggesting that libsystemd is all CSS. Any programmer can
have a look at the sources to see if Tobias is right or not.

But anyway, I will not say that you're wrong, I just don't know. But I
think that all sorts of conspiracy theories will not help us any
further.

I'm very pleased to see that someone is building a libsystemdfree xorg.
But what about security updates? And what about future versions? Who is
going to do that? What about the robustness of Devuan? Don't get me
wrong, I really like the Devuan project, but wouldn't it be better to
create a "systemv.debian.org", a sub version of debian, like the
"backports.debian.org"? If Devuan is part of the Debian project, we
will have much more influence on what's going on. Maybe it's better to
build an extension to Debian than to build our own infrastructure.

I fear many people won't agree with me, but I think it's better to
cooperate with Debian than to fight Debian. Debian has a nice
infrastructure. If we will be able to build a Debian extension and not
a Debian fork, I think we can all win. On one side we will be able to
use Debian's infrastructure and have influence on what's going on
there, on the other side Debian will have a nice and fully supported
non-systemd version.

R.


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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 01:16:42PM +0100, richard lucassen wrote:

[cut]

> 
> I think Devuan will be much more succesfull as a part of Debian than as
> a stand alone distro. We will be number 2067 on the list of
> "NeverHeardOf" distro's. The time ROI is very low if Devuan is staying
> alone IMHO.
> 
> We need (silent) diplomacy, not anti-Debian oratory. It's all about
> freedom of choice, nothing more, nothing less. If mister Poettering
> suffers from some form of narcism, it is not a reason for us to behave
> the same way.
> 
> "winner of the war" has been proven to be a contraditio in terminis.
> 

And what is exactly your plan to have Devuan somehow merged "into
Debian", given that any attempt to criticise, even in a constructive
manner, any systemd-related stuff is immediately labelled as
"trolling" in debian-user (just to make an example)?

What is the choice offered by Debian once they have decided that
systemd has to be a not-unpluggable component of a Debian system?

How could we dream of having a systemd-free Debian if the only
alternative offered by Debian, and accepted by the TC, is
systemd-o-la-muerte?

If Debian hadn't started, 22 years ago, as a "NeverHeardOf" operating
system, today you would not have the problem of migrating hundred of
servers from Debian...

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Daniel Reurich]

Hi Adam,

On 29/01/16 05:16, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 09:33:52PM +1030, Arthur Marsh wrote:
>> Hi, has anyone built the xserver-xorg-core from Debian unstable without
>> libsystemd0?
> 
> libsystemd0 is benign.  The new dependency on libpam-systemd is worse, as it
> actually breaks things if systemd is absent.
> 
> On the other hand, rebuilding with --disable-systemd-logind
> --without-systemd-daemon seems to work.
> 
>> I'm still running Debian but with the angband.pl repositories and this marks
>> another stage of being unable to avoid libsystemd0 in Debian.
> 
> I just uploaded deinfested xserver-xorg packages, but I don't have the time
> right now to test on diverse setups.  All I tested is my home desktop, with
> nvidia proprietary.  Thus, it'd be interesting to hear if there are any new
> failures for other people.
> 
Can you spin us the patch, and I'll build it for Devuan.

Regards,
Daniel


-- 
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Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[richard lucassen]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:54:22 +
Rainer Weikusat  wrote:

> >> The issue is that many people in devuan are so allergic to systemd
> >> that they will not tolerate a library with that string in its name.
> >
> > Ah, I didn't know that. Thnx :)
> 
> Considering that I wrote that in reply to you and also in reply to the
> other person who asserted "Don't worry. We just have you best interest
> in mind!" why was there any uncertainty of the technical purpose of
> libsystemd?

Now you're suggesting that libsystemd is all CSS. Any programmer can
have a look at the sources to see if Tobias is right or not.

But anyway, I will not say that you're wrong, I just don't know. But I
think that all sorts of conspiracy theories will not help us any
further.

I'm very pleased to see that someone is building a libsystemdfree xorg.
But what about security updates? And what about future versions? Who is
going to do that? What about the robustness of Devuan? Don't get me
wrong, I really like the Devuan project, but wouldn't it be better to
create a "systemv.debian.org", a sub version of debian, like the
"backports.debian.org"? If Devuan is part of the Debian project, we
will have much more influence on what's going on. Maybe it's better to
build an extension to Debian than to build our own infrastructure.

I fear many people won't agree with me, but I think it's better to
cooperate with Debian than to fight Debian. Debian has a nice
infrastructure. If we will be able to build a Debian extension and not
a Debian fork, I think we can all win. On one side we will be able to
use Debian's infrastructure and have influence on what's going on
there, on the other side Debian will have a nice and fully supported
non-systemd version.

R.

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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Rainer Weikusat]

Hendrik Boom  writes:

[...]

>> Until Debian formally ejects it's non-Linux sub-projects, any such
>> attempts are restricted to being more-or-less elaborate nuisances
>> created by people with too much time on their hands.
>
> Do you mean "ejects its non-systemd subprojects"?

At least to some degree, Debian also exists for the GNU/Hurd non-kernel
and the FreeBSD kernel. There's no systemd for either of both as the
systemd project doesn't support anything but Linux and glibc (and
reportedly, even only specific version of that). Consequently, portable
packages (like the X server) can be "systemd enhanced" for Linux users
but must generally retain the ability to function without it. This, in
turn, means that it will remain fairly easy to support "non-systemd
Linux, too".

Conspiracy theory for general entertainment: At some point in time, the
usual suspects will start making noises about how badly the (pitiful)
state of the Hurd and FreeBSD ports reflect "on Debian" and/or how much
valuable resources are taken up by these which should really be used to
serve the interests of "the overwhelming majority of users"[*] and try
to get both killed.

[*] Superficially, this may sound ok, but it really just means that
any individual can be sacrificed when conventient as everybody is
always his own minority.

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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Rainer Weikusat]

richard lucassen  writes:
> On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:54:22 +
> Rainer Weikusat  wrote:
>
>> >> The issue is that many people in devuan are so allergic to systemd
>> >> that they will not tolerate a library with that string in its name.
>> >
>> > Ah, I didn't know that. Thnx :)
>> 
>> Considering that I wrote that in reply to you and also in reply to the
>> other person who asserted "Don't worry. We just have you best interest
>> in mind!" why was there any uncertainty of the technical purpose of
>> libsystemd?
>
> Now you're suggesting that libsystemd is all CSS. Any programmer can
> have a look at the sources to see if Tobias is right or not.

As far as I know, CSS means 'Cascading Style Sheets'. But this doesn't
make any sense in the given context. But I'd like to point out that
I didn't claim Tobias was wrong in the factual parts of his
statement. But the spin he put on them was basically "Systemd is good
for you and people who don't agree are lunatics". Without the spin is
statement doesn't look so nice anymore, but that's not my fault.

> But anyway, I will not say that you're wrong, I just don't know. But I
> think that all sorts of conspiracy theories will not help us any
> further.

If you're confusing a factually correct explanation of statements
made on this list with "a conspiracy theory", as you apparently do, this
would be a problem on the receiving end.
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 03:36:42PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Conspiracy theory for general entertainment: At some point in time, the
> usual suspects will start making noises about how badly the (pitiful)
> state of the Hurd and FreeBSD ports reflect "on Debian" and/or how much
> valuable resources are taken up by these which should really be used to
> serve the interests of "the overwhelming majority of users"[*] and try
> to get both killed.
> 
> [*] Superficially, this may sound ok, but it really just means that
> any individual can be sacrificed when conventient as everybody is
> always his own minority.
> 

Hi Rainer, 

I believe your conspiracy theory is not too far from reality,
indeed. As a matter of fact, the support for the FreeBSD port has
never been official, and to the best of my knowledge Debian GNU/Hurd
is practically a frozen project. Hence, it will be very easy for the
TC to get rid of both "ports".

My2Cents

KatolaZ

-- 
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:05:15 -0500
Steve Litt  wrote:

 
> Devuan's unique. There are several sans-systemd alternatives, but
> Devuan is the only one I would recommend to someone not intimately
> familiar with the internals of Linux and POSIX. 

My preceding assertion is false. Manjaro-OpenRC is another sans-systemd
distro that a mere mortal can install and administer.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Adam Borowski]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 04:08:15PM +, KatolaZ wrote:
> I believe your conspiracy theory is not too far from reality,
> indeed. As a matter of fact, the support for the FreeBSD port has
> never been official

Incorrect, kfreebsd _was_ an official supported architecture, in squeeze and
wheezy.  Support for wheezy (oldstable) still lasts, albeit only for three
months longer.  There's no kfreebsd in jessie, though, and there's about no
hope there will in stretch.

> and to the best of my knowledge Debian GNU/Hurd is practically a frozen
> project.

Well, the state of Hurd, upstream, is pretty much a joke, so it's a wonder
the port is present in Debian even at the current level.

> Hence, it will be very easy for the TC to get rid of both "ports".

I'd say the danger comes more from sorry state of sysvinit maintenance.
Openrc in Debian is in even worse state.

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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:12:12 +
Simon Hobson  wrote:


> > I fear many people won't agree with me, but I think it's better to
> > cooperate with Debian than to fight Debian. 

Peace is always my default policy, but what if those you cooperate with
have a pattern and practice of forever doing ever more outrageous stuff?

> > Debian has a nice
> > infrastructure. If we will be able to build a Debian extension and
> > not a Debian fork, I think we can all win. On one side we will be
> > able to use Debian's infrastructure and have influence on what's
> > going on there, on the other side Debian will have a nice and fully
> > supported non-systemd version.  

[snip]
 
> I can see several reasons it won't/can't happen - all political !
> 
> 1) Some people here are so "entrenched" in their beliefs that such
> "consorting with the enemy" won't be popular. 

Hey, you've just described me!

> 2) Some people in
> Debian are so entrenched that such a heretic sub-project would not be
> allowed. 

Hey, you've just described the powers that be at Debian. And Redhat.
And Arch.

> 3) It would appear that some people here are persona
> non-gratis on Debian mailing lists 

Hey, you just described me again.

> (I don't know why, I can only
> assume for being vocally anti-systemd), 

Correct!

> that doesn't bode well for
> them being accepted back.

Oh, all I'd need to do to get accepted back is apologize to Don
Armstrong and promise him I won't do it again. That will happen some
time after the sun burns out.

I would *never* try to stand in the way of closer Devuan/Debian
cooperation. But, I fear, for Devuan, that such a closer cooperation
would turn out to be a trap in the long term.

Devuan's unique. There are several sans-systemd alternatives, but
Devuan is the only one I would recommend to someone not intimately
familiar with the internals of Linux and POSIX. Devuan's future must be
protected.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Simon Hobson]

richard lucassen  wrote:

> I'd rather go for a, like Tobias suggested, a libsystemd telling
> the package that is linked against, that it runs on a non-systemd
> system.

> But maybe that solution is too simple, clear and wrong.

I think it's a *possible* solution and has certain attractions - but (excuse my 
ignorance), isn't there something already ?

A library that contains *only* the call to find out if systemd is running, and 
returns the correct (no it's not) response would seem a pragmatic way of 
keeping stuff running. If a package in it's own right, would that allow it to 
show up in Debian's popularity contest, or doesn't it work like that ?

So the upside is all that software that "uses systemd if it's there" could run 
as it as long as the maintainer properly respects non-system systems.
The downside is that it legitimises having a hard dependency on (at least) 
libsystemd0 and fully justifies not trying to be "more clever" about it.

Of course, it won't help for stuff that actually requires systemd functions.

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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Rainer Weikusat]

richard lucassen  writes:
> On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:09:53 -0500 Hendrik Boom  
> wrote:

[...]

> A thing that remains, as you pointed out in your other post: was
> systemd inserted by Debian or by the original developers?

That's another question I already answered and since Mr Lucasson likes
to label me as "conspiracy theorist", I suggest that whoever doubts the
following checks the Debian diff.gz himself.

"Systemd support" is an optional feature of the upstream code. It's
enabled by default for Debian package builds for Linux (but not Hurd of
kFreeBSD) because the package maintainer has chosen to enable it by
default. 

[...]

> I'd rather go for a, like Tobias suggested, a libsystemd telling
> the package that is linked against, that it runs on a non-systemd
> system.

As I also already wrote: libsystemd is an alternate implementation of a
set of systemd-provided APIs (One guy who posted here claimed it would
provide the same features in a different way, another that it wouldn't
do anything. I have no interest in checking this myself because it can
change at any time and even an API implementation which "does nothing"
is an alternate implementation, just a seriously sub-par one). Further,
this implementation is provided by the systemd project (same source
package). Hence, someone using that gets a system whose API is
controlled (both at the specifiation and at the implementation level) by
the systemd project. At best, this is a functionally somewhat limited
systemd system.

[...]

> And yes, there is "systemd" in the name. Sorry for that ;-)

The situation wouldn't be different if it was called
libhubertusblume-from-hell instead. Were I generally inclined to believe
that people act intelligently (and I'm certainly not), I'd assume the
name was chosen intentionally to provide another cheap way of labelling
people with different opinions as nutjobs with a justifcation people who
aren't familiar with "programming" are unlikely to be capable of seeing
through.
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 15:41:05 +0100, richard wrote in message 
<20160129154105.527b4f678a0b1d58ea7af...@lucassen.org>:

> And yes, there is "systemd" in the name. Sorry for that ;-)

..the important thing is what it does when it strikes, not 
its name, nor what it pretends to do in the mean time.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Arthur Marsh]

Adam Borowski wrote on 29/01/16 02:46:

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 09:33:52PM +1030, Arthur Marsh wrote:

Hi, has anyone built the xserver-xorg-core from Debian unstable without
libsystemd0?

...

I just uploaded deinfested xserver-xorg packages, but I don't have the time
right now to test on diverse setups.  All I tested is my home desktop, with
nvidia proprietary.  Thus, it'd be interesting to hear if there are any new
failures for other people.



It's running fine with Radeon 9550 on my old machine (i386 even though 
the CPU is a single core Athlon64) and Radeon HD 5450 on (x86-64, 4-core 
Athlon64)


Thanks as always for doing this!

Arthur.

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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 09:33:52PM +1030, Arthur Marsh wrote:
> Hi, has anyone built the xserver-xorg-core from Debian unstable without
> libsystemd0?

libsystemd0 is benign.  The new dependency on libpam-systemd is worse, as it
actually breaks things if systemd is absent.

On the other hand, rebuilding with --disable-systemd-logind
--without-systemd-daemon seems to work.

> I'm still running Debian but with the angband.pl repositories and this marks
> another stage of being unable to avoid libsystemd0 in Debian.

I just uploaded deinfested xserver-xorg packages, but I don't have the time
right now to test on diverse setups.  All I tested is my home desktop, with
nvidia proprietary.  Thus, it'd be interesting to hear if there are any new
failures for other people.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Rainer Weikusat]

Adam Borowski  writes:
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 09:33:52PM +1030, Arthur Marsh wrote:
>> Hi, has anyone built the xserver-xorg-core from Debian unstable without
>> libsystemd0?
>
> libsystemd0 is benign.

libsystemd0 is a library implementation of (some parts of) the systemd
API supposed to enable applications using/ depending on this API to run
on systems where the 'main' API implementation is not available, IOW,
it's a fallback implementation of systemd whose presence is not as easy
to spot. This means the set of components which have been
libsystemd'ified are a systemd-system in everything but the name as the
prefferred API definition is whatever the people who control systemd
consider suitable for the ends they're trying to achieve and the API
implementation is provided by the systemd project.

This may fit some definition of benign, eg, insofar it enables
application specifically written for systemd systems to be used without
using the main systemd implementation, or it may not, as there's little
reason to keep maintaining the secondary implementation once the primary
one is considered "sufficiently prevalent" that compatibilty with
systems not using it is no longer considered desirable.

But that's a matter of opinion and systemd itself also fits some
definitions of benign.
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[richard lucassen]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:17:37 +0100
Tobias Hunger  wrote:

> Actually libsystemd0 is a compatibility library: It does whatever the
> user wanted it to do if systemd is up and running and falls back to
> doing nothing if systemd is not in use. It was written to allow
> software to run on either systemd or non-systemd systems. That is why
> debian is enabling it.
> 
> The issue is that many people in devuan are so allergic to systemd
> that they will not tolerate a library with that string in its name.

Ah, I didn't know that. Thnx :)

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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Didier Kryn]

Le 28/01/2016 18:11, richard lucassen a écrit :

The issue is that many people in devuan are so allergic to systemd
>that they will not tolerate a library with that string in its name.


You might as well write paranoid instead of allergic. Because many 
on this list expect that libsystemd0 is a temporary facility given for 
people the time they migrate to systemd and to seem harmless to upstream 
developpers. Some day they'll decide to withdraw libsystemd0 and 
paranoia/allergia will turn to have been realism. The trap is so visible!


Call me paranoid :-)

Didier

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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Rainer Weikusat]

richard lucassen  writes:
> On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:17:37 +0100
> Tobias Hunger  wrote:
>
>> Actually libsystemd0 is a compatibility library: It does whatever the
>> user wanted it to do if systemd is up and running and falls back to
>> doing nothing if systemd is not in use. It was written to allow
>> software to run on either systemd or non-systemd systems. That is why
>> debian is enabling it.
>> 
>> The issue is that many people in devuan are so allergic to systemd
>> that they will not tolerate a library with that string in its name.
>
> Ah, I didn't know that. Thnx :)

Considering that I wrote that in reply to you and also in reply to the
other person who asserted "Don't worry. We just have you best interest
in mind!" why was there any uncertainty of the technical purpose of
libsystemd?

That "systemd developers/ supporters" like asserting that everyone who
doesn't agree with their opinion on anything is mentally deranged in
this or that way is also not exactly new. They've been doing this for a
while and it's pretty much how most less-than-brilliant people regard
anybody who disagrees with any of their opinions.
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[richard lucassen]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 00:34:02 +1300
Daniel Reurich  wrote:

> > I'm still running Debian but with the angband.pl repositories and
> > this marks another stage of being unable to avoid libsystemd0 in
> > Debian.
> 
> Not yet, but it's noted and I'll work on that next week once work has
> settled down a bit...

I'm not a programmer, maybe I'm saying something incredibly stupid, so
please don't shoot me, but wouldn't it be a better idea to build a
Devuan libsystemd0 that fakes the real libsystemd0 instead of adapting
all programs to not using libsystemd0?

R.

-- 
richard lucassen
http://contact.xaq.nl/
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Rainer Weikusat]

richard lucassen  writes:
> Daniel Reurich  wrote:
>
>> > I'm still running Debian but with the angband.pl repositories and
>> > this marks another stage of being unable to avoid libsystemd0 in
>> > Debian.
>> 
>> Not yet, but it's noted and I'll work on that next week once work has
>> settled down a bit...
>
> I'm not a programmer, maybe I'm saying something incredibly stupid, so
> please don't shoot me, but wouldn't it be a better idea to build a
> Devuan libsystemd0 that fakes the real libsystemd0 instead of adapting
> all programs to not using libsystemd0?

This depends on how the library is being used. If it's just a spurious
dependency, a simple dummy will work in place of it. But this usually
won't be the case as the express purpose of libsystemd is to enable code
to be written/ changed to use systemd APIs instead of the facilities
systemd uses to implement these by providing a second implementation of
the systemd API in a library.

For the given case, this means that the Debian package will enable X
server systemd support unconditionally when building for a Linux-based
system and the corresponding facilities are either supposed to be
provided by system-alpha, the set of programs controlling the system, or
by systemd-quisling, the secondary (and presumably somewhat sub-par)
implementation in the library.

Until Debian formally ejects it's non-Linux sub-projects, any such
attempts are restricted to being more-or-less elaborate nuisances
created by people with too much time on their hands.
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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Arthur Marsh]

Daniel Reurich wrote on 28/01/16 22:04:

On 29/01/16 00:03, Arthur Marsh wrote:

Hi, has anyone built the xserver-xorg-core from Debian unstable without
libsystemd0?

I'm still running Debian but with the angband.pl repositories and this
marks another stage of being unable to avoid libsystemd0 in Debian.

Arthur.


Not yet, but it's noted and I'll work on that next week once work has
settled down a bit...


Thanks!


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Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0

[Daniel Reurich]

On 29/01/16 00:03, Arthur Marsh wrote:
> Hi, has anyone built the xserver-xorg-core from Debian unstable without
> libsystemd0?
> 
> I'm still running Debian but with the angband.pl repositories and this
> marks another stage of being unable to avoid libsystemd0 in Debian.
> 
> Arthur.

Not yet, but it's noted and I'll work on that next week once work has
settled down a bit...



-- 
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722



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