[DNSOP] housekeeping for DNSOP meetings: volunteers needed

2014-03-06 Thread Suzanne Woolf
Dear colleagues,

DNSOP now has two meetings to manage, both with packed agendas. This means your 
chairs will really appreciate early volunteers for note-takers and jabber 
scribes.

Please drop us a note if you can do either job for either session.

Pitch: you might get more out of the session if you're forced to ignore your 
email, and your chairs (and all participants) will love you for the help.


Thanks,
Suzanne ( Tim)

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Re: [DNSOP] QUIC for DNS confidentiality (Was: my dnse vision

2014-03-06 Thread Tim Wicinski


Talked with Jim Roskind who did the QUIC talk back in Vancouver.  I 
include his comments:




I actually discussed this in a hallway discussion at the Canada IETF 
meeting.


I think it would fit well, as it has the potential to offer zero-RTT 
connect (similar to what DNS over UDP effectively supports today), and 
yet it will better (actually) handle guaranteed delivery, as well as 
deal with large return packages (DNS Sec).  DNS currently supports 
(sadly) an amplification attack of about 50x, and in QUIC, we worked 
hard to control this problem.


IT is also nice that it is encrypted which means that folks will get 
some extra privacy, and not reveal (to observers) what they are 
resolving ;-).


One hassle is that we do try to encrypt/authenticate... and with an IP 
address only (pointing to the DNS resolver), I don't see a clean way to 
have a cert providing authentication :-/.  I guess you *could* implant 
(into a client) a combination of both the  DNS resolver's IP address, 
*plus* an expected server name.  Fun stuff to ponder ;-).


IMO, interesting, and plausibly nice, fit.

Jim

-
On 3/5/14, 2:19 PM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:

On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 11:33:07AM +,
  Miek Gieben m...@miek.nl wrote
  a message of 22 lines which said:


Can't we use QUIC
(http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/88/slides/slides-88-tsvarea-10.pdf) ?

It seems to me that a lot of use cases covered in dnse are being addressed
in this protocol.

It's partly a problem of timing. How long before QUIC is ready and
implemented?

But you're right, I'll add it to the next version of
draft-bortzmeyer-dnsop-privacy-sol.

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Re: [DNSOP] housekeeping for DNSOP meetings: volunteers needed

2014-03-06 Thread Stephane Bortzmeyer
On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 05:51:32AM -0500,
 Suzanne Woolf suzworldw...@gmail.com wrote 
 a message of 16 lines which said:

 you might get more out of the session if you're forced to ignore
 your email,

Email? You mean the thing we used in the 1990s? Today, people use
Twitter and Facebook, you know :-) And they are much more distracting.

[As the minute taker in DANE this morning, and a Twitter addict, I
violently agree about the you get more out of the session.]

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[DNSOP] [Food for thoughts] [Identifiers] Frogans addresses

2014-03-06 Thread Stephane Bortzmeyer
Here are new identifiers that are not domain names and do not even
look like domain names:

https://www.frogans.org/

If you are in a hurry, and just interested in the identifiers, they
are at:

https://www.frogans.org/en/resources/ifap/access.html

And you may read only the first one IFAP 1.0 technical specification

Disclaimer: there is an ICANN application going on for .FROGANS

Disclaimer 2: I'm not involved in that project and therefore cannot
reply to serious technical questions.

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Re: [DNSOP] housekeeping for DNSOP meetings: volunteers needed

2014-03-06 Thread Dan York
Suzanne,


On 3/6/14 10:51 AM, Suzanne Woolf suzworldw...@gmail.com wrote:

DNSOP now has two meetings to manage, both with packed agendas. This
means your chairs will really appreciate early volunteers for note-takers
and jabber scribes.

Please drop us a note if you can do either job for either session.

I am glad to help with Jabber for both sessions. As we're in some larger
rooms, I would welcome someone else to help, too (and, for example, to sit
near another microphone to help capture people's names).

Pitch: you might get more out of the session if you're forced to ignore
your email,

That's a large part of why I *do* volunteer for Jabber scribing.  It
forces me to pay attention to exactly what is going on.  Plus, it forces
me to learn people's names. :-)

Dan

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Re: [DNSOP] additional special names Fwd: I-D Action: draft-chapin-additional-reserved-tlds-00.txt

2014-03-06 Thread Stephane Bortzmeyer
On Tue, Mar 04, 2014 at 02:38:14PM +,
 Warren Kumari war...@kumari.net wrote 
 a message of 39 lines which said:

 Which is why I think that some of this involves us[0] talking to
 ICANN and explaining the reason / purpose for ALT, and playing nice.

OK, so we just have to find people who accept to devote the next N
years of their life to a boring and unrewarding task, full of meetings
and thick reports, with lawyers and politicians. You've found someone?
:-)

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Re: [DNSOP] my dnse vision (3 cases)

2014-03-06 Thread Francis Dupont
This is an update of my previous messages.

The generic DNS confidentiality problem can be divided into 3 cases:

 1- stubs - local resolver

 2- stubs - remote open resolver

 3- resolver - auth. servers

In the first case the local resolver is in the same security area
(I use area to avoid to overload domain or zone) than clients/
stubs (and the infrastructure between them two). This covers the
case where the resolver is physically local and the one where a
mobile client is securely connected to the local network, so the
usual perimeter/VPN/etc including nomadic VPNs. As DNS is in the 1-
case only one of the services to protect I consider without a strong
argument for the opposite the security will be provided by a general
(vs. a DNS one) mechanism so doesn't need a DNSE solution.
BTW usually in the 1- case the resolver is dual headed so
authentication and authorization are already required/provided.

2- is about a very low number of remote open resolvers so
again without an explicit request I suggest we consider it is
a private issue between the open resolver service and its customers.
Note the environment is very different than 3- so even it has to
be addressed 2- should lead to a different solution too.

So we have to address 3-, and to begin by qname minimization
(which is also minimal on many aspects :-).

Regards

francis.dup...@fdupont.fr

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Re: [DNSOP] my dnse vision

2014-03-06 Thread Stephane Bortzmeyer
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 02:58:49PM +,
 Jelte Jansen jelte.jan...@sidn.nl wrote 
 a message of 20 lines which said:

 all the more reasons for ISPs to try and force you to use theirs
 (perhaps even after some friendly coercion from the nearest
 three-letter agency (four in the netherlands as well)). In which
 case we'd need even better channel encryption, to the point where
 you can't tell it's DNS, so it can be tunneled out of the network

If we follow this line of reasoning, why do we deploy more security,
then? With this argument, we would never have deployed HTTPS
either. (Or SSH: most hotspots and many ISP block SSH.)

We promised in Vancouver to seriously strengthen the Internet against
surveillance. Was it an empty promise, politician-style?

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Re: [DNSOP] my dnse vision

2014-03-06 Thread Stephane Bortzmeyer
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 03:11:59PM +,
 Wessels, Duane dwess...@verisign.com wrote 
 a message of 35 lines which said:

  The goal of the DNSE BoF was privacy, not authentication. For
 
 Do you mean data authentication, or who-I-am-talking to authentication?

Data authentication. In the DNS, where the authoritative name servers
for a given zone can be under ≠ organisations (the root...) and where
there are relays and caches everywhere, the authentication of the
server has little value (that's one of the reasons I'm not a big fan
of DNScurve).


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Re: [DNSOP] my dnse vision

2014-03-06 Thread Stephane Bortzmeyer
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 04:38:20PM +,
 Tony Finch d...@dotat.at wrote 
 a message of 13 lines which said:

  For authentication, we have DNSSEC :-)
 
 DNSSEC authenticates data not servers. 

See my reply to Duane. Athenticating an autoritative name server or a
forwarder has little value (because they could have cheated and
changed the data).

The only place where server authentication could be useful is between
a stub and the first resolver.

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Re: [DNSOP] deploying security

2014-03-06 Thread Francis Dupont
 In your previous mail you wrote:

  If we follow this line of reasoning, why do we deploy more security,
  then?

= because we want (and as you noticed they don't want).

  With this argument, we would never have deployed HTTPS
  either.

= have we? I am afraid most HTTPS are MITM'ed where SSH  co are
blocked.

  (Or SSH: most hotspots and many ISP block SSH.)

= I know and it is a shame! BTW for ISP it is for me a good (and
enough) reason to go another one (fortunately in France ISP
competition is high: no NAT, no silly filters, less than 20 EUR
per month for 20Mbits/s triple play...)

  We promised in Vancouver to seriously strengthen the Internet against
  surveillance. Was it an empty promise, politician-style?

= the political side is politician-style, do you have a doubt?

Regards

francis.dup...@fdupont.fr

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Re: [DNSOP] my dnse vision

2014-03-06 Thread Evan Hunt
On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 02:50:20PM +, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
 The only place where server authentication could be useful is between
 a stub and the first resolver.

I think that's exactly the point that was under discussion, though:
How can people who don't want their DNS traffic snooped and analyzed,
but have decided for some reason to use 8.8.8.8 anyway, be sure they're
talking to the real 8.8.8.8? :)

-- 
Evan Hunt -- e...@isc.org
Internet Systems Consortium, Inc.

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Re: [DNSOP] my dnse vision

2014-03-06 Thread Hosnieh Rafiee

 -Original Message-
 From: DNSOP [mailto:dnsop-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Evan Hunt
 Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 6:32 PM
 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer
 Cc: Tony Finch; dnsop@ietf.org
 Subject: Re: [DNSOP] my dnse vision
 
 On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 02:50:20PM +, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
  The only place where server authentication could be useful is between
  a stub and the first resolver.
 
 I think that's exactly the point that was under discussion, though:
 How can people who don't want their DNS traffic snooped and analyzed, but
 have decided for some reason to use 8.8.8.8 anyway, be sure they're
talking
 to the real 8.8.8.8? :)
 
 --


This is actually addressed in CGA-TSIG draft (a secure authentication) and
also confidentiality 

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Re: [DNSOP] my dnse vision

2014-03-06 Thread Stephane Bortzmeyer
On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 05:31:32PM +,
 Evan Hunt e...@isc.org wrote 
 a message of 12 lines which said:

 I think that's exactly the point that was under discussion,

It's a very valid and interesting point but it has not a lot of
relationship with the privacy issues. I suggest that it deserves a
separate effort, which could start with a nice I-D describing the
problem statement/analysis (and then to proposed solutions).

Unless we want to solve all the security problems of the DNS at once,
with the same solution?

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Re: [DNSOP] my dnse vision

2014-03-06 Thread Evan Hunt
On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 06:39:07PM +0100, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
 It's a very valid and interesting point but it has not a lot of
 relationship with the privacy issues.

I don't entirely agree: if a MITM can spoof a trusted remote resolver,
then QNAME minimization won't help you.  DNSSEC ensures that you get
legitimate answers; it doesn't ensure that the server on the other
end belongs to someone you trust to keep your queries confidential.

 I suggest that it deserves a
 separate effort, which could start with a nice I-D describing the
 problem statement/analysis (and then to proposed solutions).

I agree it would be appropriate to treat stub-to-resolver channel
security as a separate problem space.

(I will note in passing that I'm intrigued by the CGA-TSIG draft
being circulated by Mr. Raffieh.)

 Unless we want to solve all the security problems of the DNS at once,
 with the same solution?

Oh, I didn't realize it was an option. Yes, that sounds excellent,
please do that.

-- 
Evan Hunt -- e...@isc.org
Internet Systems Consortium, Inc.

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Re: [DNSOP] draft-fujiwara-dnsop-ds-query-increase-02

2014-03-06 Thread fujiwara
 From: Tony Finch d...@dotat.at
 It is an interesting draft and I can see why the problem concerns you. The 
 dummy DS is a clever work-around, but it is a pity about the validation bug 
 in Google public DNS.

Thanks. I'm not sure that the validation error is a bug or not.

 I wonder about the possibility of adjusting the rules for caching 
 delegations. Would it make sense to remember that a referral is insecure for 
 the lifetime of the NS RRset, instead of the lifetime of the negative DS 
 answer?

This idea requires updating RFC 2308.

I'm afraid that when newly registered DS RR will be used if the
negative DS answer is cached.

--
Kazunori Fujiwara, JPRS fujiw...@jprs.co.jp

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Re: [DNSOP] draft-fujiwara-dnsop-ds-query-increase-02

2014-03-06 Thread Tim Wicinski

Hi,

I believe there may of been some take away from Vancouver on direction. 
I have a hand written note on this, but it was lost in the discussion on 
Key Exchanges.


I will followup with you after tonight's meeting, and apologies for 
dropping this.


tim

On 3/6/14, 5:57 PM, fujiw...@jprs.co.jp wrote:

From: Tony Finch d...@dotat.at
It is an interesting draft and I can see why the problem concerns you. The 
dummy DS is a clever work-around, but it is a pity about the validation bug in 
Google public DNS.

Thanks. I'm not sure that the validation error is a bug or not.


I wonder about the possibility of adjusting the rules for caching delegations. 
Would it make sense to remember that a referral is insecure for the lifetime of 
the NS RRset, instead of the lifetime of the negative DS answer?

This idea requires updating RFC 2308.

I'm afraid that when newly registered DS RR will be used if the
negative DS answer is cached.

--
Kazunori Fujiwara, JPRS fujiw...@jprs.co.jp

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Re: [DNSOP] draft-fujiwara-dnsop-ds-query-increase-02

2014-03-06 Thread fujiwara
 From: Olafur Gudmundsson o...@ogud.com
 Your calculations on the amplification are good illustration, but assume that 
 the resolvers use
 the parental provided NS set, not the child side provided NS set. 
 In the case of google.co.jp. 
 JP side NS has TTL of 1 day but google.co.jp side has is 96 hours (4 days) 
 Unbound resolver has by default of MaxTTL 1 day thus it does not matter in 
 the case of google.co.jp 
 which NS set is stored, but other resolvers do different things. 

Thanks. Some domain names use shorter NS TTL values.

 In short I think the simple conclusion is 
 signed domain will see increased DS traffic for unsigned child domains 

Agree.

I would like to know whether the increase of DS queries are observed
commonly or not. (with small NCACHE TTL value)

--
Kazunori Fujiwara, JPRS fujiw...@jprs.co.jp

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Re: [DNSOP] draft-fujiwara-dnsop-ds-query-increase-02

2014-03-06 Thread Frederico A C Neves
On Fri, Mar 07, 2014 at 03:03:40AM +0900, fujiw...@jprs.co.jp wrote:
...
 I would like to know whether the increase of DS queries are observed
 commonly or not. (with small NCACHE TTL value)

We are observing around the same % of qps but still need to confirm
the other characteristics.

Fred

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[DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-jabley-dnsop-dns-onion-00.txt

2014-03-06 Thread Joe Abley
Hi all,

We had an idea in the bar. We wrote it up. Comments welcome.


Joe

Begin forwarded message:

 From: internet-dra...@ietf.org
 Subject: New Version Notification for draft-jabley-dnsop-dns-onion-00.txt
 Date: 6 March 2014 at 19:24:34 GMT
 To: Joao Luis Silva Damas jda...@dyn.com, Roy Arends r...@nominet.org.uk, 
 Joe Abley jab...@dyn.com
 
 
 A new version of I-D, draft-jabley-dnsop-dns-onion-00.txt
 has been successfully submitted by Joe Abley and posted to the
 IETF repository.
 
 Name: draft-jabley-dnsop-dns-onion
 Revision: 00
 Title:DNS Privacy with a Hint of Onion
 Document date:2014-03-05
 Group:Individual Submission
 Pages:14
 URL:
 http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jabley-dnsop-dns-onion-00.txt
 Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jabley-dnsop-dns-onion/
 Htmlized:   http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jabley-dnsop-dns-onion-00
 
 
 Abstract:
   The Domain Name System (DNS) has no inherent capability to protect
   the privacy of end users.  The data associated with DNS queries and
   responses can be observed by intermediate systems, and such
   observations could provide a source of metadata relating to end user
   behaviour.
 
   This document describes an approach which separates the data in DNS
   queries and responses from the identity of the DNS resolver used by
   DNS clients.
 
   This approach does not address privacy concerns between a stub
   resolver and a recursive resolver.
 
   This approach imposes no requirement for modification of authority
   servers, and does not depend upon widespread deployment of DNSSEC
   signing or validation.
 
 
 
 
 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
 until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
 
 The IETF Secretariat
 

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[DNSOP] DNS privacy and Team Cymru's report on 300, 000 SOHO routers with compromised DNS settings

2014-03-06 Thread Dan York
DNSOP members,

Given our session today talking about protecting DNS privacy, I found an 
interesting bit of synchronicity upon going back to my room and seeing this 
article in my feeds about a compromise of at least 300,000 small office / home 
office (SOHO) home routers  by a variety of attacks in which their DNS server 
values were changed and consumers were redirected to other pages as a result:

http://www.circleid.com/posts/widespread_compromised_routers_discovered_with_altered_dns_configurations/
(and 
http://www.circleid.com/posts/20140305_dynamic_dns_customers_check_your_router_settings/
 )

The actual report from Team Cymru was announced just this past Monday - 
https://twitter.com/teamcymru/status/440488571666198528  and is available at:

https://www.team-cymru.com/ReadingRoom/Whitepapers/2013/TeamCymruSOHOPharming.pdf

Now, in this case the attackers compromised the local network devices and took 
over control of the local recursive resolvers.  In this case of the attacker 
controlling the recursive resolver, I don't know that any of the various 
solutions thrown around today would do anything to help with this.  I don't 
even see DNSSEC helping much here, either, given that the attacker could just 
strip out the DNSSEC info (unless, perhaps, the home computers were running 
full (vs stub) recursive resolvers that also did DNSSEC-validation).

I just thought it was an interesting example of a type of attack against DNS 
that is out there now.

Dan

--
Dan York
Senior Content Strategist, Internet Society
y...@isoc.org mailto:y...@isoc.org   +1-802-735-1624
Jabber: y...@jabber.isoc.org mailto:y...@jabber.isoc.org
Skype: danyork   http://twitter.com/danyork

http://www.internetsociety.org/deploy360/
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Re: [DNSOP] DNS privacy and Team Cymru's report on 300, 000 SOHO routers with compromised DNS settings

2014-03-06 Thread Hosnieh Rafiee
Dan,

I guess you have to separate the problem of compromising device with the
case where we are looking for only confidentiality or privacy. IMHO, this is
somewhat out of scope. 

However, we cannot ignore it. In this special case, just the admin of that
recursive resolver needs to react to that attack and without that nobody can
understand what's going on there but the important thing is how to
re-establish the trust with all the other recursive resolvers that already
used that node.  I think this is important because it might not be clear how
many nodes already used this resolver but for the first case you can do
nothing except waiting for immediate action of rescue team.

 

Hosnieh

 

 

 

 

From: DNSOP [mailto:dnsop-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dan York
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 12:10 AM
To: dnsop@ietf.org
Subject: [DNSOP] DNS privacy and Team Cymru's report on 300, 000 SOHO
routers with compromised DNS settings

 

DNSOP members,

 

Given our session today talking about protecting DNS privacy, I found an
interesting bit of synchronicity upon going back to my room and seeing this
article in my feeds about a compromise of at least 300,000 small office /
home office (SOHO) home routers  by a variety of attacks in which their DNS
server values were changed and consumers were redirected to other pages as a
result:

 

http://www.circleid.com/posts/widespread_compromised_routers_discovered_with
_altered_dns_configurations/

(and
http://www.circleid.com/posts/20140305_dynamic_dns_customers_check_your_rout
er_settings/ )

 

The actual report from Team Cymru was announced just this past Monday -
https://twitter.com/teamcymru/status/440488571666198528  and is available
at:

 

https://www.team-cymru.com/ReadingRoom/Whitepapers/2013/TeamCymruSOHOPharmin
g.pdf 

 

Now, in this case the attackers compromised the local network devices and
took over control of the local recursive resolvers.  In this case of the
attacker controlling the recursive resolver, I don't know that any of the
various solutions thrown around today would do anything to help with this.
I don't even see DNSSEC helping much here, either, given that the attacker
could just strip out the DNSSEC info (unless, perhaps, the home computers
were running full (vs stub) recursive resolvers that also did
DNSSEC-validation).

 

I just thought it was an interesting example of a type of attack against DNS
that is out there now.

 

Dan

 

--

Dan York

Senior Content Strategist, Internet Society

y...@isoc.org mailto:y...@isoc.org   +1-802-735-1624

Jabber: y...@jabber.isoc.org mailto:y...@jabber.isoc.org

Skype: danyork   http://twitter.com/danyork

 

http://www.internetsociety.org/deploy360/ 

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Re: [DNSOP] DNS privacy and Team Cymru's report on 300, 000 SOHO routers with compromised DNS settings

2014-03-06 Thread Andrew Sullivan
On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 11:09:33PM +, Dan York wrote:

 this case of the attacker controlling the recursive resolver, I
 don't know that any of the various solutions thrown around today
 would do anything to help with this.  

But this was exactly the question I (among others) was trying to ask
at the mic.  From whom exactly are we trying to protect ourselves?  If
one of the answers is, our immediate upstream resolver, there's
actually a possible answer to that: either don't have one, or prove
that the one you're talking to is one you can trust.

But to start that discussion, we first have to figure out from whom we
are protecting ourselves.

Best regards,

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
a...@anvilwalrusden.com

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[DNSOP] draft-grothoff-iesg-special-use-p2p-names-02

2014-03-06 Thread hellekin
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hello list,

the authors of *Special-Use Domain Names of Peer-to-Peer Systems* I-D
are inviting you to review the latest version (02) of our draft.  It
includes changes prompted by community feedback, many coming from the
DNSOP list.  Among them:

  - a recomposed abstract (see below),
  - removal of the out-of-scope noconnect pTLD,
  - a split per domain of the IANA considerations.

The latter accounts for the inflation of pages, and the authors are
aware of the repetitions in sub-sections of title 5.  We hope it will
ease peer review and allow for finer-grained comments and improvements.

Diff:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-grothoff-iesg-special-use-p2p-names-01url2=draft-grothoff-iesg-special-use-p2p-names-02

Datatracker Entry:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-grothoff-iesg-special-use-p2p-names/

Abstract:

*

   This is an IESG Approval document requesting the reservation of six
   Top-Level Domains for special use, in conformance with the
   registration procedure defined in RFC 6761, section 4.

   Peer-to-Peer systems use specific decentralized mechanisms to
   allocate, register, manage, and resolve names.  Those mechanisms
   operate entirely outside of DNS, independently from the DNS root and
   delegation tree.  In order to avoid interoperability issues with DNS
   as well as to address security and privacy concerns, this document
   describes six pseudo Top-Level Domain names (pTLDs), reserved for
   special use.

   The following six domains relate to security-focused peer-to-peer
   systems.  They are: .gnu, .zkey, .onion, .exit, .i2p, and
   .bit.

*

Thank you for your attention and consideration,

Hellekin O. Wolf, editor.
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