Re: [DOG mailing list] In Flight Emergency Actions Part 2 Fire!
get slightly excited occasionally when I operate the cabin vent and isn’t the only one of that variant to do it. I don’t think I would like to try it canopy off. In any event any canopy has the ability to remove a tail plane if it ends up hitting it at speed. It depends on how cleanly it departs. I work on the principle of being extremely diligent to mitigate the chance of a fire. I can think of 3 right offs and one of them fatal in the last 6 years from fires where that principle was left wanting. Richard and I spent time at every DI for weeks trying to track down a fuel smell. We ultimately found it by due diligence and it was a widow maker waiting to happen. Put the wind up us but as we were diligent we found an fixed the problem. Others surprisingly accept such things and have even said to bystanders that a bit of a fuel leak it is normal. That fatefully in a recent instance resulted in the pilots death from inflight fire the day after he said it. There is nothing normal about a fuel leak other than doing a fuel drain. Too often I have encountered aircraft with leaks and the pilots are oblivious to the risks. The best one was when I discovered a 1litre a minute leak in a G109 just 2 weeks out of annual. I was doing an engine run after a carby change with the cowls off and a fire extinguisher in my hand. The owner pilot ignored the briefing and watched his instruments as I was indicting cut power. We got there after a very long 25 seconds. The fuel was running directly onto the exhaust. Only when the boost pump was running though. Later the pilot commented that that explained why his passenger had reported the smell of fuel every time they taxied and also partly why he was burning 22lits and hour (Leaking during takeoff/climb and landing with the boost pump running). To this day he doesn’t admit it was overly serious. He flew from Byron Bay to Burketown in that state with 5 stops. He then flew another 5 mornings before I found the leak. The guy who signed off the aircraft annual is also very much to blame. Cheers. Nige. From: dog@lists.riverland.net.au Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2019 5:59 PM To: dog@lists.riverland.net.au; dog@lists.riverland.net.au Subject: RE: [DOG mailing list] In Flight Emergency Actions Part 2 Fire! Good question Kurt and one we would have all thought about at some time. Would depend on a number of variables. Given the width of the Dimona canopy the probability of wiping out the tailplane on jettising would have to be high let alone balance issues Andrew mentioned. Windspeed in the cockpit wouldn't help either. I remember the blast in the cockpit when flying the Blanik without the canopy all those years ago (sorry Andrew!). So I think I'd only do so if I was suffocating and/or burning, not while still able. Nigel, Andrew or anyone else aware of any other in flight jettison events? I was going to suggest throwing the canopy as soon as you can free your hands to do so on the landing roll but on second thoughts you would then be more greatly exposed to the effects of the fire while still moving. Would a severe ground loop on touch down assist directing heat and smoke away from the cockpit and drastically shorten the landing roll? Laurie Sent from Yahoo7 Mail on Android On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 at 10:20 am, Andrew Simpson via dog wrote: Hi Kurt, I performed the investigation on the latest fire in Australia, it’s a double edged sword the jettisoning of the canopy can have the effect of fanning the existing fire and making the situation worse. In the Ximango event the partial deployment of the canopy allowed the flames to lick up the fuselage side and affect the cockpit (Side slipping played an important part in the pilot walking away in this event). The canopy jettison has the potential to affect the cg and potential damage to structure if not a clean departure from the aircraft. I know of a few TMG pilots that have been involved in the 3 fire events in Australia that are seriously considering using parachutes and jumping in the case of a fire event. On a side note the GFA is working on an AD to apply Firefree 88 to the cowls and engine bay on motor gliders with repeat inspections at each form 2. Background is to provide more time for the pilot to get the aircraft on the ground. Regards Andrew From: dog@lists.riverland.net.au [mailto:dog@lists.riverland.net.au] On Behalf Of Kurt Redinbaugh Sent: Wednesday, 13 February 2019 9:36 AM To: dog@lists.riverland.net.au; Laurie Hoffman Subject: Re: [DOG mailing list] In Flight Emergency Actions Part 2 Fire! Any thought of the benefit or not of blowing the canopy while in flight to mqke egress easier once on the ground? Kurt Redinbaugh H-36 S/N 3660 On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 1:55 PM Laurie Hoffman via dog wrote: In flight fire
Re: [DOG mailing list] In Flight Emergency Actions Part 2 Fire!
Laurie Yes apparently Col took Richard Mole for a flight. I didn’t recognise Yankee Tango so it’s probably about time for me to head to Camden soon. David Sent from my iPhone > On 16 Feb 2019, at 7:40 am, Laurie Hoffman via dog > wrote: > > Hi Dave, > Just thinking about the Dimona's behaviour in a severe groundloop. Agree that > immediately after touchdown wouldn't be the best time to initiate the > groundloop, but I think I'd be comfortable commencing one soon after. > > The H36 is built like the proverbial Sydney Harbour Bridge. My understanding > is that it rarely (if ever) goes up on its nose or over on its back in > mishandled landing accidents. The airworthiness guys might like to comment on > this. When you think about the loads in a groundloop these are towards the > outer wing and downwards. Slamming the outer wing down isn't what I'm > proposing but once getting it down and then holding down firmly while > applying full opposite rudder. The undercarriage bow would probably hold up > throughout albeit with damage and partial removal as the rod ends > distorted/failed. During a grounloop its surprising just how slow the action > seems as you dissipate energy even though it isn't that slow. > > If the pilot assesses that they still have a couple of minutes before being > consumed by fire then hold off maybe but I would rather suffer a fracture or > cuts than burn or be overcome by toxic fumes. > > > We flew a fellow the other day who was in management with Peregrine when you > worked for them and knew you. He has a British accent and was responsible for > most of the continents excluding Antarctica. Will see if I can look up his > name but that description probably sound familiar. > > Best Regards > Laurie > > > > > > > > On Friday, 15 February 2019, 10:42:00 am AEDT, David McGonigal > wrote: > > > Laurie, > > > On first thought the ground loop is tempting. But I’d probably want to take > out “extreme” - the last thing you’d want would be for the aircraft to dig in > and tip forward (propelling you into the most likely fire source) or, worse, > flip, leaving you trapped underneath a burning aircraft. > > Best wishes, > David > > > David McGonigal > 101/1-3 Banksia Rd > Bellevue Hill > NSW 2023, Australia > Mobile: 0416 151 239 > Skype: davidmcgonigal > www.davidmcgonigal.com.au > david...@davidmcgonigal.com.au > > > > > > > > - > You are subscribed to the Dimona Owners Group mailing list. > To unsubscribe, send email to: dog-unsubscr...@lists.riverland.net.au >
Re: [DOG mailing list] In Flight Emergency Actions Part 2 Fire!
Hi Dave,Just thinking about the Dimona's behaviour in a severe groundloop. Agree that immediately after touchdown wouldn't be the best time to initiate the groundloop, but I think I'd be comfortable commencing one soon after. The H36 is built like the proverbial Sydney Harbour Bridge. My understanding is that it rarely (if ever) goes up on its nose or over on its back in mishandled landing accidents. The airworthiness guys might like to comment on this. When you think about the loads in a groundloop these are towards the outer wing and downwards. Slamming the outer wing down isn't what I'm proposing but once getting it down and then holding down firmly while applying full opposite rudder. The undercarriage bow would probably hold up throughout albeit with damage and partial removal as the rod ends distorted/failed. During a grounloop its surprising just how slow the action seems as you dissipate energy even though it isn't that slow. If the pilot assesses that they still have a couple of minutes before being consumed by fire then hold off maybe but I would rather suffer a fracture or cuts than burn or be overcome by toxic fumes. We flew a fellow the other day who was in management with Peregrine when you worked for them and knew you. He has a British accent and was responsible for most of the continents excluding Antarctica. Will see if I can look up his name but that description probably sound familiar. Best Regards Laurie On Friday, 15 February 2019, 10:42:00 am AEDT, David McGonigal wrote: Laurie, On first thought the ground loop is tempting. But I’d probably want to take out “extreme” - the last thing you’d want would be for the aircraft to dig in and tip forward (propelling you into the most likely fire source) or, worse, flip, leaving you trapped underneath a burning aircraft. Best wishes, David David McGonigal 101/1-3 Banksia Rd Bellevue Hill NSW 2023, Australia Mobile: 0416 151 239 Skype: davidmcgonigal www.davidmcgonigal.com.au david...@davidmcgonigal.com.au - You are subscribed to the Dimona Owners Group mailing list. To unsubscribe, send email to: dog-unsubscr...@lists.riverland.net.au
Re: [DOG mailing list] In Flight Emergency Actions Part 2 Fire!
Laurie, On first thought the ground loop is tempting. But I’d probably want to take out “extreme” - the last thing you’d want would be for the aircraft to dig in and tip forward (propelling you into the most likely fire source) or, worse, flip, leaving you trapped underneath a burning aircraft. Best wishes, David David McGonigal 101/1-3 Banksia Rd Bellevue Hill NSW 2023, Australia Mobile: 0416 151 239 Skype: davidmcgonigal www.davidmcgonigal.com.au david...@davidmcgonigal.com.au - You are subscribed to the Dimona Owners Group mailing list. To unsubscribe, send email to: dog-unsubscr...@lists.riverland.net.au
Re: [DOG mailing list] In Flight Emergency Actions Part 2 Fire!
You present interesting issues. Many thanks Kurt On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 11:28 PM Laurie Hoffman via dog < dog@lists.riverland.net.au> wrote: > Good question Kurt and one we would have all thought about at some time. > > Would depend on a number of variables. Given the width of the Dimona > canopy the probability of wiping out the tailplane on jettising would have > to be high let alone balance issues Andrew mentioned. > > Windspeed in the cockpit wouldn't help either. I remember the blast in the > cockpit when flying the Blanik without the canopy all those years ago > (sorry Andrew!). > > So I think I'd only do so if I was suffocating and/or burning, not while > still able. > > Nigel, Andrew or anyone else aware of any other in flight jettison events? > > I was going to suggest throwing the canopy as soon as you can free your > hands to do so on the landing roll but on second thoughts you would then be > more greatly exposed to the effects of the fire while still moving. > > Would a severe ground loop on touch down assist directing heat and smoke > away from the cockpit and drastically shorten the landing roll? > > Laurie > > > > Sent from Yahoo7 Mail on Android > <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers_wl=ym_sub1=Internal_sub2=Global_YGrowth_sub3=EmailSignature> > > On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 at 10:20 am, Andrew Simpson via dog > wrote: > > Hi Kurt, > > > > I performed the investigation on the latest fire in Australia, it’s a > double edged sword the jettisoning of the canopy can have the effect of > fanning the existing fire and making the situation worse. In the Ximango > event the partial deployment of the canopy allowed the flames to lick up > the fuselage side and affect the cockpit (Side slipping played an important > part in the pilot walking away in this event). > > > > The canopy jettison has the potential to affect the cg and potential > damage to structure if not a clean departure from the aircraft. > > > > I know of a few TMG pilots that have been involved in the 3 fire events in > Australia that are seriously considering using parachutes and jumping in > the case of a fire event. > > > > On a side note the GFA is working on an AD to apply Firefree 88 to the > cowls and engine bay on motor gliders with repeat inspections at each form > 2. Background is to provide more time for the pilot to get the aircraft on > the ground. > > > > Regards > > Andrew > > > > *From:* dog@lists.riverland.net.au [mailto:dog@lists.riverland.net.au] *On > Behalf Of *Kurt Redinbaugh > *Sent:* Wednesday, 13 February 2019 9:36 AM > *To:* dog@lists.riverland.net.au; Laurie Hoffman > *Subject:* Re: [DOG mailing list] In Flight Emergency Actions Part 2 Fire! > > > > Any thought of the benefit or not of blowing the canopy while in flight to > mqke egress easier once on the ground? > > > > Kurt Redinbaugh > > H-36 S/N 3660 > > > > On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 1:55 PM Laurie Hoffman via dog < > dog@lists.riverland.net.au> wrote: > > In flight fire presents one of the worst scenarios for any pilot, > especially for one flying a resin soaked, plastic, fuel and oil carrying > airframe. > > > > The H36 AFM distinguishes between in flight engine and electrical fires. > > > __ > > Hoffmann > 3 > > H 36 > DIMONA > Emergency Procedures > > 3.10 *Engine fire during flight*: > > Throttle - full power > > Fuel Valve -OFF > > Cabin Heat -Push , > > Cabin air - Pull > > Ignition - OFF when engine Stops > > Slipping the aircraft can keep smoke and flames from the cockpit > > Execute normal landing from a glide > > > > 3. 11*Electrical Fire during flight*: > > Main Switch - OFF > > Circuit breakers - PULL OFF > > > > The engine will continue to run. Land as soon as practical or at the next > airfield > > > __ > > > > With the loss of a well known and highly experienced glider pilot in his > MG due in flight fire last year, this topic is fresh in the minds of most > Aussie glider pilots. > > > > Nigel made the point that often a pilot may be unable to distinguish > between these types of fires during flight. Depending on the location and > nature of the smoke source within the cockpit that ma
RE: [DOG mailing list] In Flight Emergency Actions Part 2 Fire!
Good question Kurt and one we would have all thought about at some time.
Would depend on a number of variables. Given the width of the Dimona canopy the
probability of wiping out the tailplane on jettising would have to be high let
alone balance issues Andrew mentioned.
Windspeed in the cockpit wouldn't help either. I remember the blast in the
cockpit when flying the Blanik without the canopy all those years ago (sorry
Andrew!).
So I think I'd only do so if I was suffocating and/or burning, not while still
able.
Nigel, Andrew or anyone else aware of any other in flight jettison events?
I was going to suggest throwing the canopy as soon as you can free your hands
to do so on the landing roll but on second thoughts you would then be more
greatly exposed to the effects of the fire while still moving.
Would a severe ground loop on touch down assist directing heat and smoke away
from the cockpit and drastically shorten the landing roll?
Laurie
Sent from Yahoo7 Mail on Android
On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 at 10:20 am, Andrew Simpson via
dog wrote: #yiv1411164022 #yiv1411164022 --
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Hi Kurt,
I performed the investigation on the latest fire in Australia, it’s a double
edged sword the jettisoning of the canopy can have the effect of fanning the
existing fire and making the situation worse. In the Ximango event the partial
deployment of the canopy allowed the flames to lick up the fuselage side and
affect the cockpit (Side slipping played an important part in the pilot walking
away in this event).
The canopy jettison has the potential to affect the cg and potential damage to
structure if not a clean departure from the aircraft.
I know of a few TMG pilots that have been involved in the 3 fire events in
Australia that are seriously considering using parachutes and jumping in the
case of a fire event.
On a side note the GFA is working on an AD to apply Firefree 88 to the cowls
and engine bay on motor gliders with repeat inspections at each form 2.
Background is to provide more time for the pilot to get the aircraft on the
ground.
Regards
Andrew
From: dog@lists.riverland.net.au [mailto:dog@lists.riverland.net.au]On Behalf
Of Kurt Redinbaugh
Sent: Wednesday, 13 February 2019 9:36 AM
To: dog@lists.riverland.net.au; Laurie Hoffman
Subject: Re: [DOG mailing list] In Flight Emergency Actions Part 2 Fire!
Any thought of the benefit or not of blowing the canopy while in flight to mqke
egress easier once on the ground?
Kurt Redinbaugh
H-36 S/N 3660
On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 1:55 PM Laurie Hoffman via dog
wrote:
In flight fire presents one of the worst scenarios for any pilot, especially
RE: [DOG mailing list] In Flight Emergency Actions Part 2 Fire!
Hi Kurt, I performed the investigation on the latest fire in Australia, it’s a double edged sword the jettisoning of the canopy can have the effect of fanning the existing fire and making the situation worse. In the Ximango event the partial deployment of the canopy allowed the flames to lick up the fuselage side and affect the cockpit (Side slipping played an important part in the pilot walking away in this event). The canopy jettison has the potential to affect the cg and potential damage to structure if not a clean departure from the aircraft. I know of a few TMG pilots that have been involved in the 3 fire events in Australia that are seriously considering using parachutes and jumping in the case of a fire event. On a side note the GFA is working on an AD to apply Firefree 88 to the cowls and engine bay on motor gliders with repeat inspections at each form 2. Background is to provide more time for the pilot to get the aircraft on the ground. Regards Andrew From: dog@lists.riverland.net.au [mailto:dog@lists.riverland.net.au] On Behalf Of Kurt Redinbaugh Sent: Wednesday, 13 February 2019 9:36 AM To: dog@lists.riverland.net.au; Laurie Hoffman Subject: Re: [DOG mailing list] In Flight Emergency Actions Part 2 Fire! Any thought of the benefit or not of blowing the canopy while in flight to mqke egress easier once on the ground? Kurt Redinbaugh H-36 S/N 3660 On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 1:55 PM Laurie Hoffman via dog mailto:dog@lists.riverland.net.au>> wrote: In flight fire presents one of the worst scenarios for any pilot, especially for one flying a resin soaked, plastic, fuel and oil carrying airframe. The H36 AFM distinguishes between in flight engine and electrical fires. __ Hoffmann 3 H 36 DIMONA Emergency Procedures 3.10 Engine fire during flight: Throttle - full power Fuel Valve -OFF Cabin Heat -Push , Cabin air - Pull Ignition - OFF when engine Stops Slipping the aircraft can keep smoke and flames from the cockpit Execute normal landing from a glide 3. 11Electrical Fire during flight: Main Switch - OFF Circuit breakers - PULL OFF The engine will continue to run. Land as soon as practical or at the next airfield __ With the loss of a well known and highly experienced glider pilot in his MG due in flight fire last year, this topic is fresh in the minds of most Aussie glider pilots. Nigel made the point that often a pilot may be unable to distinguish between these types of fires during flight. Depending on the location and nature of the smoke source within the cockpit that may well point to an electrical fire but does it really matter which type of fire you have to contend with? The reality is that if it continues to burn (and it will) one type is no less hotter or catastrophic than the other although an electrical fire may take a little longer but be more toxic! As with the previous section on engine failure during early climb out, the AFM contains some sound advice and Nigel and I would argue, some less sound advice. in my opinion it badly understates the urgency to get the aircraft down onto the ground asap. Recommendations: 1. In the event of ANY fire, carry out ALL of the AFM actions listed for BOTH Engine and Electrical fires. 2. WHILE doing the above, apply the greatest side slip that you can manage and pull full spoilers as soon as your left hand is free from turning off and pulling things. (The side slipping is for the reasons provided in the AFM and also to redirect heat away from the canopy and cockpit) 3. Fly your Dimona through a wide spiraling descent so that you can survey the best landing areas in your immediate vicinity on each turn and plan for a rapid arrival at one. 4. Forget "Execute normal landing from a glide" just get the bloody thing down so that you can egress and move well away upwind, while it burns. My Comments and as usual, appreciate your thoughts and feedback: 1 & 2. I plan to sit in the cockpit before startup on occasions, close my eyes and visualise a fire. No time for finding and reading a checklist with the H36. I'll just rehearse shutting everything off while entering a rapid descent using side slipping and full spoilers. 2. Its well worth staying current in side slipping. Caution required near the ground close to roundout but practiced at height and then applied by joining a high/steeper final occasionally provides a
Re: [DOG mailing list] In Flight Emergency Actions Part 2 Fire!
Any thought of the benefit or not of blowing the canopy while in flight to mqke egress easier once on the ground? Kurt Redinbaugh H-36 S/N 3660 On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 1:55 PM Laurie Hoffman via dog < dog@lists.riverland.net.au> wrote: > In flight fire presents one of the worst scenarios for any pilot, > especially for one flying a resin soaked, plastic, fuel and oil carrying > airframe. > > The H36 AFM distinguishes between in flight engine and electrical fires. > > __ > > Hoffmann > 3 > > H 36 > DIMONA > Emergency Procedures > > 3.10 *Engine fire during flight*: > > Throttle - full power > > Fuel Valve -OFF > > Cabin Heat -Push , > > Cabin air - Pull > > Ignition - OFF when engine Stops > > Slipping the aircraft can keep smoke and flames from the cockpit > > Execute normal landing from a glide > > > > 3. 11*Electrical Fire during flight*: > > Main Switch - OFF > > Circuit breakers - PULL OFF > > > The engine will continue to run. Land as soon as practical or at the next > airfield > > __ > > > With the loss of a well known and highly experienced glider pilot in his > MG due in flight fire last year, this topic is fresh in the minds of most > Aussie glider pilots. > > Nigel made the point that often a pilot may be unable to distinguish > between these types of fires during flight. Depending on the location and > nature of the smoke source within the cockpit that may well point to an > electrical fire but does it really matter which type of fire you have to > contend with? > > The reality is that if it continues to burn (and it will) one type is no > less hotter or catastrophic than the other although an electrical fire may > take a little longer but be more toxic! > > > As with the previous section on engine failure during early climb out, the > AFM contains some sound advice and Nigel and I would argue, some less sound > advice. > in my opinion it badly understates the urgency to get the aircraft down > onto the ground asap. > > > Recommendations: > > 1. In the event of ANY fire, carry out ALL of the AFM actions listed for > BOTH Engine and Electrical fires. > > 2. WHILE doing the above, apply the greatest side slip that you can manage > and pull full spoilers as soon as your left hand is free from turning off > and pulling things. (The side slipping is for the reasons provided in the > AFM and also to redirect heat away from the canopy and cockpit) > > 3. Fly your Dimona through a wide spiraling descent so that you can survey > the best landing areas in your immediate vicinity on each turn and plan for > a rapid arrival at one. > > 4. Forget "*Execute normal landing from a glide*" just get the bloody > thing down so that you can egress and move well away upwind, while it burns. > > > > My Comments and as usual, appreciate your thoughts and feedback: > > 1 & 2. I plan to sit in the cockpit before startup on occasions, close my > eyes and visualise a fire. No time for finding and reading a checklist with > the H36. I'll just rehearse shutting everything off while entering a rapid > descent using side slipping and full spoilers. > > 2. Its well worth staying current in side slipping. Caution required near > the ground close to roundout but practiced at height and then applied by > joining a high/steeper final occasionally provides ample opportunity. > > 3. Landing engine off and actually using your touring motor glider as a > glider now and again builds real confidence in putting your aircraft down > at other than a licenced airport. Aussie pilots flying sailplanes are > required to undergo an annual 'outlanding' check and this is an equally > good idea for MG pilots. > I have a very good Power Point on Outlanding developed by the GFA > Coaching dept if anyone is interested. > > 4. Be mindful of the toxicity of burning/smoldering plastics during > descent and try to lean towards any fresh air inlet for breathing in. > > Any other suggestions? > > Best Regards > Laurie > > *Sydney Australia* > > > > >
