Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
Hi, jr wrote: 2. Clearer organisation for data and settings saved by apps would be great. Whenever I look for data or settings saved by an app, I need to google to find out which folder that app saves its data and settings to. yes, things used to be easier before the 'Windoze-ification' of Linux started; most app's will create user-specific stuff somewhere below your (user) home, system-wide app settings are commonly found below '/etc/', '/usr/lib/' or '/usr/share'. I find that the various sections of the manual often detail the locations. It used to be that you'd just refer to the FILES section of the man page to find this out. There was a time when Google didn't exist, Unix benefitted from the excellent documentation it shipped with, and this placed pressure on newcomers to maintain that high standard. GOML! `FILES' can still be seen in things like vim(1) and python(1). (If man gives the page to you in less(1) then searching for uppercase will match only uppercase, e.g. type /FILESEnter.) Cheers, Ralph. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
I go away for about 24 hours and come back to what I was hoping in the first place, ie other people's lists :-) @Tim: I like the way you summed up the problem of choice for a new user and I like the idea of recommendations from the distro maintainers. @jr: I think it's great for those who know a lot that a lot users just know the basics so they can pay you when they have a big problem ;-) (it's like taking the car to the garage). @John: entirely agree about better drivers, though it is of course a tricky one due to manufacturers. This one is a bit of a catch 22: the more people use Linux, the more likely manufacturers are to actually provide us with fully functional drivers instead of our devs having to figure it out. Things have improved vastly: I ditched Linux the first time around because there was no stable driver for my new graphic card and it kept freezing, but the same card worked fine a couple of years later when I returned to Linux. However, I am still a bit worried each time I buy new hardware because it always says Windows only or Windows Mac only and so you have to do your Linux-compatibility research first and essentially take a calculated risk. Re: OpenOffice, I'm curious to know what will happen to it now that it's been bought by Oracle. I've heard that it's going to be forked. Anybody knows about that? -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
Re: OpenOffice, I'm curious to know what will happen to it now that it's been bought by Oracle. I've heard that it's going to be forked. Anybody knows about that? See: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09/28/openoffice_independence_from_oracle/ Open sourcers have seized control of the OpenOffice project and product and declared their independence from database giant Oracle. The OpenOffice.org Project has unveiled a major restructuring that separates itself from Oracle and that takes responsibility for OpenOffice away from a single company. Oracle had been OpenOffice's principal contributor - a role it inherited thanks to its acquisition of the well meaning but slow-witted Sun Microsystems earlier this year. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On 04/11/10 08:59, Justin Stringfellow wrote: Re: OpenOffice, I'm curious to know what will happen to it now that it's been bought by Oracle. I've heard that it's going to be forked. Anybody knows about that? See: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09/28/openoffice_independence_from_oracle/ Open sourcers have seized control of the OpenOffice project and product and declared their independence from database giant Oracle. The OpenOffice.org Project has unveiled a major restructuring that separates itself from Oracle and that takes responsibility for OpenOffice away from a single company. Oracle had been OpenOffice's principal contributor - a role it inherited thanks to its acquisition of the well meaning but slow-witted Sun Microsystems earlier this year. I'm cautiously optimistic about this. Sun were not an especially good nurturer of OpenOffice, and I expect Oracle would have been worse. Hopefully this will give OOo a new lease of life. Or it it will die and something better will replace it. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On Wed, Nov 03, 2010 at 11:36:25PM +, jr wrote: On 3 November 2010 10:31, John Carlyle-Clarke j...@wormdrive.net wrote: My list would be: (2) Create something to rival and improve on Remote Desktop on Windows. VNC, remote X11 and No Machine don't quite do it, although all of them are good in some ways. have you tried 'rdesktop(1)' John? the (browser i/f) 'TeamViewer' (http://www.teamviewer.com/) is pretty good too. Hi jr- I use rdesktop to connect to Windows machines a lot, but AFAIK there is no Linux server for this protocol. For those that haven't used it, the things that are good about Remote Desktop are:- * It can easily connect to an existing sesssion or create a new one. * You can disconnect a remote desktop session without logging out of the remote. This leaves the remote with a locked console, so you can then walk up to it, authenticate, and continue the session. * It automatically sizes the remote desktop to the client view size. * It brings printers and disks from the client to the client's session on the remote. These appear as networked printers and disks on the remote machine. Not so useful say on a big LAN, where these resources will be networked anyway, but very useful on a small network. * It brings sound from the remote to the client. * It is more network efficient than X11 or VNC and is quite usable over slow links. When I've used No Machine and it works, it's pretty close to this. Again, the remaining bits could be filled in by existing technology. It's more a matter of packaging it all up in a convenient way. The problems with NX are that it's commercial software, and the free versions are pretty broken. I'm curious to see where Neatx goes: http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2009/07/releasing-neatx-open-source-nx-servier.html Hopefully this could improve the experience here. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
hi John, I use rdesktop to connect to Windows machines a lot, but AFAIK there is no Linux server for this protocol. a quick google on 'linux rdp server' found xrdp: http://xrdp.sourceforge.net/ and the following comments: http://www.whenpenguinsattack.com/2006/04/19/rdp-server-for-linux/ http://www.edugeek.net/forums/nix/2509-rdp-server-linux.html haven't needed a server on Linux so I don't know whether xrdp is any good (for your needs), hth. -- regards, jr. time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On Thursday 04 Nov 2010, Justin Stringfellow wrote: Re: OpenOffice, I'm curious to know what will happen to it now that it's been bought by Oracle. I've heard that it's going to be forked. Anybody knows about that? See: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09/28/openoffice_independence_from_oracle See also http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/02/openoffice_org_letter/ Oracle have really uset the FLOSS community, not just with their dealings with OpenOffice, but also with the way they are alienating the community over Java. I think they will either have to rethink their FLOSS strategy or risk losing market share significantly as all their products that rely on FLOSS end up being forked. When a company makes money from FLOSS, it's a fine line they have to tread between 'monetizing' (horrible Americanism) the code and keeping the community on board. Red Hat, Google, Novell, IBM all walk this line with varying degrees of success. Sun were close to the line with many things, but the consensus seems to be that Oracle has taken a running leap over it. Returning to the original question, Canonical and others have already declared support for LibreOffice. The current plan is that the default Office Suite in Ubuntu will be LibreOffice from now on http://tweetmeme.com/story/2523593742/future-ubuntu-releases-will-be-shipped- with-libreoffice-says-mark-shuttleworth-tech-drive-in I think we are living in interesting times :-) -- Terry Coles 64 bit computing with Kubuntu Linux -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On 02/11/10 08:45, Natalie Hooper wrote: Just wondering if any of you read Linux Format's 24 Things we'd change about Linux (issue 137) and what your thoughts were? It got me thinking about what I'd like to see changed in Linux so I wrote a blog post about it (see link below). http://cogitas.net/blog/2010/11/01/10-things-id-change-in-linux/ I'd like to know your thoughts about this, what you agree/disagree with, what you would add etc. My list would be: (1) Create a way to share files between machines on a LAN really easily that doesn't hang the system if the network goes away. SAMBA is too complex. sshfs can hang a whole machine if a network goes down. (2) Create something to rival and improve on Remote Desktop on Windows. VNC, remote X11 and No Machine don't quite do it, although all of them are good in some ways. (3) Better graphics drivers: fully working Gallium3D for nouveau on NVidia, ATI drivers that actually work, DRI2 and KMS across the board. (4) Better wireless drivers, especially for 802.11n, especially USB. (5) An open source VoIP program that interoperates with Skype. Hey, I can dream can't I? Skype indicated they were going to split their Linux client and release the core stuff (protocols etc) as a binary and open source the GUI and all the other bits. That's a start, I suppose ... if they actually do it. (6) I'd like it if the XDG stuff worked better for systems that lacked Gnome or KDE. I'd also like it if some of the XDG projects were a bit more lively, and accepted bug reports, suggestions and patches. (Portland..) I'd also prefer it if some of the XDG standards were a bit simpler... the .desktop setup for preferred applications, MIME types, program menus and so on is pretty bizarre. Does anyone know how, for example, chromium works out what app should open a downloaded file? Have you ever tried to work it out? Apparently the system for a trash bin for file managers is deeply weird too. (7) A system for applications of all kinds across all desktop environments to share image thumbnails would nice. It wouldn't have to be complex either. (8) I really don't like Open Office much, and I think the FOSS world needs a top notch office suite. My biggest gripe at this precise moment is that there's no way to import XML data into oocalc, but overall the suite lacks polish and seems clunky. I hate MS Office too, so I'm not sure what my ideal suite would look like! Something that didn't suck :) I agree actually that non-WYSIWYG systems like LaTeX or troff are probably better for document generation, that there's usually a simpler way to solve a problem than a spreadsheet, that powerpoint is pure evil, and so on. But most people want an office suite, and to interact with modern business you often need to use one, like it or not. (9) Flash. It's horrible, but you need it sometimes. For some people, most of their PC interaction involves flash (Miniclip, YouTube..). Yes, it's better than it used to be. It still sucks, and full screen video is a total gamble. It eats CPU. Either it needs to die, or Adobe need to release the specs or open the code and let everyone have a go at improving it, or they at least need to make a Linux version that doesn't fail massively. (10) MS Exchange + Outlook is a truly horrible combination, but if I want to use Linux at work - which of course I do - I'd like to be able to smooth out the problems. If the company use MS Exchange + Outlook, I'd like to be able to interact with them better. Alternatively (and preferably), I'd like MS Exchange + Outlook to conform to standards or sod off. The best way for that to happen is for competition from cloud services (like Google Apps) and/or a really good alternative system that is standards compliant and open source yet enterprise ready to force MS to do something. Are Zimbra and others in with a shot? Most alternatives (e.g. Lotus Notes) impress by actually being worse. That's all I can think of for now! I understand the motive of the original post - changes to help with wider adoption of Linux by the masses. Mine, however, are entirely personal. Also, I entirely realize the issues behind bitching about hardware drivers. I am fully appreciative of how vastly things have improved over the years. Also, I think that often installing hardware on Linux is easier than Windows now. There are just a few weak points, and the problem is mainly the manufacturers. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
(1) Create a way to share files between machines on a LAN really easily that doesn't hang the system if the network goes away. SAMBA is too complex. sshfs can hang a whole machine if a network goes down. NFS soft mounts? cheers, --justin -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
-- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
hi Natalie, I never said automated GUIs. CLI options can be presented in a GUI with documentation available when you click the ? button for example. There is no need to dumb anything down, just to be a bit more graphical in the way an app interact with the user (who may choose to use the CLI but it should be a choice, not an obligation). In some instances, a GUI could also say for such and such options, use the CLI. Like it or not, users are getting used to touch screens and such, so having to type in text (or copy and paste text) seems a bit unfriendly to them. GUI is only about presentation and interaction, it's not about anything automated, it's not about content. you are correct, of course, saying that GUIs are not about automation, and I take your point about the current trends (ie touch screen usage and little need to type). there's nothing wrong with making it easy for average user to type a report, email their family, print a picture, record their music, make funny pictures using Photoshop, keep track of their accounts with a spreadsheet etc, all I'm saying is that there's more to keeping a computer running (ie admin) and point'n'click tends to get in the way for many of those tasks (not least because it encourages 'ignorance' (if that isn't too strong a word) which is a hinderance when having to deal with malware/rootkits/etc). (don't get me wrong, that 'ignorance' allows many of us to earn a good living. ;)) Andrew R Paterson (2 November 2010 20:33) thanks for the reminder re history, easy to forget. Sean Gibbins (2 November 2010 18:20) why does Linux need to change beyond the continuous improvement we already see? I'll qualify that further by asking anyone answering it to step back from this release or that particular release and ponder it over, say, the last five years and several distributions. yes, there have been big changes (udev/HAL, FUSE, etc) and, on the whole, they've been worth it IMO. I'd suggest that one area where we would benefit from improvements is better integration with Windoze, particularly the MS Exchange/Outlook combo (as mentioned earlier, though that's obviously not Linux kernel territory). -- regards, jr. time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On 03/11/2010 12:41, jr wrote: I'd suggest that one area where we would benefit from improvements is better integration with Windoze, particularly the MS Exchange/Outlook combo (as mentioned earlier, though that's obviously not Linux kernel territory). I wondered about this for a while and then discovered the lightening plugin for thundebird. Now I have multiple networked calendars (including some google ones) integrated and shared with free/busy time (caldav). This includes task management and now I prefer this setup to Outlook. Si -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On 3 November 2010 12:49, Simon P Smith simon.sm...@askitsdone.co.uk wrote: I wondered about this for a while and then discovered the lightening plugin for thundebird. Now I have multiple networked calendars (including some google ones) integrated and shared with free/busy time (caldav). This includes task management and now I prefer this setup to Outlook. thank you, Si. Thunderbird is quite a nice client, I'll look into this. -- regards, jr. time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On 03/11/2010 12:41, John Carlyle-Clarke wrote: On 03/11/10 11:04, Justin Stringfellow wrote: (1) Create a way to share files between machines on a LAN really easily that doesn't hang the system if the network goes away. SAMBA is too complex. sshfs can hang a whole machine if a network goes down. NFS soft mounts? Yes, CIFS has a similar option. It's part of a solution, but it doesn't exactly solve the whole problem. I'm sitting at my desk right now, using a desktop. There's a laptop next to it which has a file on it that I want to use. I could scp it (but then I end up with two copies), or I could set up samba sharing on or other, or I could set up an NFS server on one and mount it. I'm on a DHCP network without DDNS which doesn't help. Both lack the convenience of just saying I want something from that machine there and using Avahi or DNS to figure out how to get to it, setting up an ad-hoc pairing and trust, and sharing files in a really simple drag drop way (or equally from a shell with full tab-completion and familiar tools (cp, ls, mv) rather than smbclient or ftp. All the required bits are already there, they just need putting together in the right way :) sounds like you need the automounter, then! I dunno if it's the same on linux, but on solaris, the default automount configuration allows you to browse any other nfs server on your network via /net/hostname/nfs_share without prior configuration. cheers, --justin -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On 03/11/10 15:22, Justin Stringfellow wrote: sounds like you need the automounter, then! I dunno if it's the same on linux, but on solaris, the default automount configuration allows you to browse any other nfs server on your network via /net/hostname/nfs_share without prior configuration. Yes, auto.net script (executable map) is part of the autofs rpm in Fedora. $ rpm -qf /etc/auto.net autofs-5.0.5-28.fc13.i686 -- -- Discover Linux - Open Source Solutions to Business and Schools http://discoverlinux.co.uk -- -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On 3 November 2010 10:31, John Carlyle-Clarke j...@wormdrive.net wrote: My list would be: (2) Create something to rival and improve on Remote Desktop on Windows. VNC, remote X11 and No Machine don't quite do it, although all of them are good in some ways. have you tried 'rdesktop(1)' John? the (browser i/f) 'TeamViewer' (http://www.teamviewer.com/) is pretty good too. -- regards, jr. time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
[Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
Just wondering if any of you read Linux Format's 24 Things we'd change about Linux (issue 137) and what your thoughts were? It got me thinking about what I'd like to see changed in Linux so I wrote a blog post about it (see link below). http://cogitas.net/blog/2010/11/01/10-things-id-change-in-linux/ I'd like to know your thoughts about this, what you agree/disagree with, what you would add etc. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On 02/11/10 08:45, Natalie Hooper wrote: I'd like to know your thoughts about this, what you agree/disagree with, what you would add etc. Hi Natalie, See comment number two! Sean -- music, film, comics, books, rants and drivel: www.funkygibbins.me.uk -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On 2 November 2010 08:45, Natalie Hooper nataliehoo...@virginmedia.com wrote: I'd like to know your thoughts about this, what you agree/disagree with, what you would add etc. 1. Why are apps packaged differently for different distros? Rpm, deb etc I’d like to see an open standard for this. there is an existing 'standard', sort of -- tarballs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_(file_format)#Software_distribution http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/01/msg01796.html http://abock.org/2010/07/22/tarballs-why 2. Clearer organisation for data and settings saved by apps would be great. Whenever I look for data or settings saved by an app, I need to google to find out which folder that app saves its data and settings to. yes, things used to be easier before the 'Windoze-ification' of Linux started; most app's will create user-specific stuff somewhere below your (user) home, system-wide app settings are commonly found below '/etc/', '/usr/lib/' or '/usr/share'. I find that the various sections of the manual often detail the locations. 4. I’m confused as to what is the difference between “preferences” and “administration” in Ubuntu. How about a central control panel? I don't use *buntu but I understand 'preferences' to mean app and user-specific stuff while 'administration' is all about your system. wouldn't a central control panel simply make things more ambiguous? 5. Why am I seeing several versions of Linux at boot-up? This is messy. what do you mean? can you copy'n'paste an example? 6. Users shouldn’t have to use the command line, only developers/tinkerers should. Make everything available via the GUI, including the documentation. that's what Windoze and Apple offer already, time to 'upgrade'?? ;) and, you know, most administrative tasks get done much more quickly by typing a command rather than pointing and clicking. (besides, no one stopping you from encapsulating your tasks in a script and supplying a clickable front-end) 7. Obviously, nothing is perfect and apps do crash on Linux sometimes. However, I’ve never seen an error message as to why. When there is a fatal crash, an alert dialog wouldn’t go amiss. Yes, I’m sure I can go and look for info in some log but are you expecting a user to do this? that's what logs are for!! too many users click their little dialogs shut before the brain kicks in and it is usually left to the admin/support person to find out what the hell happened. have you ever needed to support users? 8. Distro updates tend to crash my computer. Every time, I spend a couple of weeks getting my Ubuntu back up to speed. I'm sure others here will be able to advise you on 'best practice'. that would include backups before updates and a system layout which minimises problems (like a separate /home partition), etc. 10. I don’t see the point of two different heavy GUI desktops (KDE and Gnome). I see the point of desktops lighter on resources for niche uses but not two mainstream GUI desktops. Unite and you will be able to offer an even stronger mainstream GUI desktop. again, it seems what you really want/need is Windoze or a Mac. ;-) personally, I think there's a good reason that Linux users can choose from dozens of window managers (after all, you wouldn't be happy if there was only one type of lager on sale, or one type of car). my $0.02. -- regards, jr. time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
Thanks for your comments both on here and on the blog. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about stuff that stops ME from using Linux but I'm talking about stuff that makes it confusing for new users/turn off new users. If you truly believe that open source software is the only ethical way to develop software, and I believe it is, then why develop a system that will turn off most users? It seems like a waste of resources to me to work on a super-system and fail at making it user-friendly. Are we developing for a little private club or for the whole of humanity? -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On 02/11/10 13:43, jr wrote: On 2 November 2010 12:40, John Cooper l...@discoverlinux.co.uk wrote: packages (DEB is NOT the defacto standard as someone posted). where did you read that?? Debian packages are standard Unix ar archives that include two gzipped, bzipped or lzmaed tar archives: one that holds the control information and another that contains the data. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deb_(file_format) agree, not at all like a (source) tarball. Is it fair to say that DEB is a standard, not THE standard? Sean -- music, film, comics, books, rants and drivel: www.funkygibbins.me.uk -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
@Sean - I've been using Linux since 2005, though I didn't use it at all in 2008/early 2009. As stated before, these things don't stop ME from using Linux/Ubuntu/whatever app I use, but from my experience, they stop new users from using Linux/Ubuntu. I'm not sure where you understand that I wanted to impose my views on how to make it user-friendly - the reason I posted this is to get a whole range of views, not to push my views. Also, it was inspired by an existing article - in fact, about half of the things on my list are in the original article too. As a community, Linux is both exciting and horribly frustrating - technical people don't always make for good communicators, devs quite often get offended if somebody suggests a different solution to a problem, many geeks are prone to patronising those they think of as ignorant, and in my opinion, Linux is suffering from this. For me, Linux users should also teach other computer users about the benefits of open source development and how a PC doesn't need Windows to run, but quite often, the feedback is if you don't know how to do this in Linux, then you understand nothing about it and you should go back to Windows. Not helpful at all in the context of the open source vs closed source dev public debate. Yes, Linux complexity is great and I don't suggest to dumb it down. Most of the changes I would like to see are to do with presentation, not how Linux works deep down. Some changes also require devs/foundations to work together. None of this should be imposed by an outside force, it has got to come from the parties involved obviously. As stated before, I don't have a problem with using Linux, I have overcome whatever issues I have with it but this list was written with the mainstream user in mind. The list is based on my own experience, watching those around me trying to use Ubuntu on my desktops and netbook. Sometimes, when a new user points something out, you just have to admit the way Linux presents itself isn't the best way (for example, the names of apps in Ubuntu software centre, which in itself is a great idea by the way). Other times, you can explain why it works like this but when a user says I don't really need to know all that and you know that the distro you are using is meant to be user-friendly (it's not like I'm using Gentoo!), then again you have to admit that even though there is a reason why something is done a certain way, it might be useful to show fewer options, and allow for a way to show more options (for example, the bootloader). -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On 02/11/10 08:45, Natalie Hooper wrote: Just wondering if any of you read Linux Format's 24 Things we'd change about Linux (issue 137) and what your thoughts were? It got me thinking about what I'd like to see changed in Linux so I wrote a blog post about it (see link below). http://cogitas.net/blog/2010/11/01/10-things-id-change-in-linux/ I'd like to know your thoughts about this, what you agree/disagree with, what you would add etc. (Copy of comment posted to blog.) I'm suprised no-one mentioned the XDG specifications around item #2. http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html This specifies that there should be three base locations for apps to use - one for user data, one for user configuration, and one for temporary data like caches and thumbnails. Currently they default to ~/.local/share , ~/.config and ~/.cache respectively although they can be pointed elsewhere. The trouble is that not all apps adhere to this yet. Those that don't tend to stick with the ~/.$appname convention. That has the advantage of simplicity. The nice thing about the XDG spec is that it gives you a clear separation between application data, config and cache which is useful for backing up, upgrading, syncing between machines, etc. This is a good micro example of the larger issue here in that it's an example of what is good and bad about Linux and FOSS. The Free Desktop Group doesn't mandate anything. They host some projects themselves, but otherwise they produce recommendations and suggested standards. Often these are driven by one or more distros, and so they get taken up, but often they don't. Some of their output is very good, some is pretty bad, and a lot of it lacks good documentation. Sometimes the designed by committee effect is in evidence. However, mostly, the rough edges get smoothed out, the bad stuff gets ignored or deprecated, the OK stuff works and serves a purpose and is eventually replaced. Take a wide enough view and the end result is largely good and improving with time, despite the many hiccups. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
Natalie, think cars. do you believe that having made driving easier, ie more user friendly (with synchro-mesh'd clutches and automated everything), drivers have become more competent, ie safer drivers? computing is very similar, IMO. yes, 'pure' users (ie someone employed to use one or two applications as part of their job) should not need to know anything outside their job-spec; but most users are both the user AND the administrator for their system, and de-skilling them even further is not going to help anyone. we need better education, better s/ware documentation, and better adherence ot standards (see John Carlyle-Clarke 1427h) by all means, but glitzy, automated GUIs which hide all of the nitty-gritty (..only developers/tinkerers should. Make everything available via the GUI..) are, in the long run, counter-productive. -- regards, jr. time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
@jr - I don't drive myself so your analogy is kind of lost on me ;-) I do get your point however but I would also add that most users do not want to be better computer administrators, they use a computer to actually get something done (type a report, email their family, print a picture, record their music, make funny pictures using Photoshop, keep track of their accounts with a spreadsheet etc). There is no need for everybody to be a car mechanics but of course, a driver should understand the basics of how a car works so they can identify faults when they occur and take the right action (put petrol in car, get the oil level checked, get tyres checked, bring car to garage etc). So a basic understanding of a computer is useful to make sure you can keep it running most of the time (when you can't, you call in your geeky friend ;-) ) but there is no need for all users to know everything about their computers. As we are with the analogy and I enjoy analogies anyway, do you know how your house is built? Can you fix everything in there? Probably not, but I bet you're glad that you can keep it running - you know where to switch off the electrics if you need to, where the stopcock is, how to keep it warm in winter, and so on. You also know who can help you with specific issues (tradesmen are the geeks in the house analogy). Now, imagine this: Person A: well, there is this better kind of house but you can't have it unless you know how to fix everything in it. Person B: OK, I'd like to learn because it looks like a really cool house so where do I start? Person A: well, you take this big power tool and drill a hole. Person B: I'm not very confident with power tools. I know how to use a hand drill though, could you show me where to drill the hole please? Person A: No, you must use a power tool. You can't possible drill a hole with a hand drill, that wouldn't work. Person B: But I'd be more confident starting that way. Person A: No, you must use a power tool for everything straight away. This might be a cheeky analogy but this is how the Linux community sometimes feels... ;-) I never said automated GUIs. CLI options can be presented in a GUI with documentation available when you click the ? button for example. There is no need to dumb anything down, just to be a bit more graphical in the way an app interact with the user (who may choose to use the CLI but it should be a choice, not an obligation). In some instances, a GUI could also say for such and such options, use the CLI. Like it or not, users are getting used to touch screens and such, so having to type in text (or copy and paste text) seems a bit unfriendly to them. GUI is only about presentation and interaction, it's not about anything automated, it's not about content. I'm thinking about Windows config utility, it's a simple GUI that does its job clearly - many Windows users have managed to administer their system using it (to find out which services freeze their systems at boot for example) and I'm not sure they would have managed to do the same with a CLI, they might have just thought Windows doesn't work anymore/I need to reformat my drive and reinstall Windows. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On 02/11/10 14:14, Natalie Hooper wrote: @Sean - I've been using Linux since 2005, though I didn't use it at all in 2008/early 2009. As stated before, these things don't stop ME from using Linux/Ubuntu/whatever app I use, but from my experience, they stop new users from using Linux/Ubuntu. Well, over the time I have been using Linux I have seen a steady increase in the number of people using it, and not just techy types, so the perceived complexity of Linux is not a barrier to everyone. My point is that we are moving in the right direction, albeit too slow for some. I'm not sure where you understand that I wanted to impose my views on how to make it user-friendly - the reason I posted this is to get a whole range of views, not to push my views. Also, it was inspired by an existing article - in fact, about half of the things on my list are in the original article too. It's a feeling I get, and one that I am struggling to articulate as I reply. Perhaps if we take one statement: Users shouldn’t have to use the command line, only developers/tinkerers should. Make everything available via the GUI, including the documentation. As I have already mentioned, for the most part users don't have to interact with the command line, if they have chosen their distribution well. That being the case, why does this need to change? Here's another: I don’t see the point of two different heavy GUI desktops (KDE and Gnome). I see the point of desktops lighter on resources for niche uses but not two mainstream GUI desktops. Unite and you will be able to offer an even stronger mainstream GUI desktop. Okay, so you don't see the point but others do. Pick your preferred desktop and stick with it. Your argument could be said to apply equally to the lighter choices too, and as such is inconsistent. The fact is we have many choices and you get to pick the one you like. There are even distros that make it easy for you: Ubuntu Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, etc. If you see this as a barrier to people using Linux then the inference is that there should be markedly less choice, which is not a good thing, in my opinion. I'd also go back to my point that some of the issues you point out are not Linux issues, but software and distribution issues. As a community, Linux is both exciting and horribly frustrating - technical people don't always make for good communicators, devs quite often get offended if somebody suggests a different solution to a problem, many geeks are prone to patronising those they think of as ignorant, and in my opinion, Linux is suffering from this. For me, Linux users should also teach other computer users about the benefits of open source development and how a PC doesn't need Windows to run, but quite often, the feedback is if you don't know how to do this in Linux, then you understand nothing about it and you should go back to Windows. Not helpful at all in the context of the open source vs closed source dev public debate. Well, I was not especially technical when I arrived at Linux (and many would say that's still the case!), but I quickly realised that to interface with technical people who are giving up their time and expertise to assist me I had to learn how to phrase my questions in such a way as to help them help me, and also to grow a thicker skin. Breaking this down further, I think it is fair to say that with any suitably technical subject matter you have to be prepared to meet the expert half-way, or alternatively be prepared to acquire the knowledge yourself, or pay for someone to do it the way you like it done. Yes, Linux complexity is great and I don't suggest to dumb it down. Most of the changes I would like to see are to do with presentation, not how Linux works deep down. Some changes also require devs/foundations to work together. None of this should be imposed by an outside force, it has got to come from the parties involved obviously. As I said before, I think we are seeing progress in that regard. However, there will always be individuals who want to stamp their name on something and do it their way, and as such slow progress and the odd hiccup is something we as a community have to tolerate along the way. As stated before, I don't have a problem with using Linux, I have overcome whatever issues I have with it but this list was written with the mainstream user in mind. The list is based on my own experience, watching those around me trying to use Ubuntu on my desktops and netbook. Sometimes, when a new user points something out, you just have to admit the way Linux presents itself isn't the best way (for example, the names of apps in Ubuntu software centre, which in itself is a great idea by the way). Other times, you can explain why it works like this but when a user says I don't really need to know all that and you know that the distro you are using is meant to be user-friendly (it's not like I'm using Gentoo!), then again you have to admit that even
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
I agree with you that Linux has come a long way and that it is a massive achievement. I started using Linux (Debian) in 2004 or 2005 (can't remember exactly), I stopped using it at end of 2007 because it was too unstable to record music on (after recording a full album using Ardour, I gave up). I went back to it because it had matured and because Ubuntu was getting more and more user-friendly. So I have a medium term experience with Linux and this is why I think it is ready for world domination (so to speak). However, this doesn't mean that it's wrong to discuss its weaknesses. As for talking to technical people, I used to work as a highways engineer/designer and was used to talking about technical stuff all the time to non-techies, such as councillors and residents, so I have a certain understanding of what it takes for people with different technical knowledge to communicate about technical things. This is this understanding which is making me see a flaw in the community. The fact I see it as a flaw doesn't mean that I don't understand why it's there, communication is a difficult thing. And yes, some of the issues are distro specific, and apps-specific, so perhaps the title isn't specific enough but if you take Linux as a whole culture, it makes sense to include these as well. I can only talk about the distros I know and also, the point was about new users so there is no point mentioning stuff about Gentoo, which isn't a distro recommended for new users. I think some of you are really misunderstanding my purpose here. My purpose isn't to diss Linux, or to complain about it, but to constructively throw ideas as to how to improve its user-friendliness. Now, if you don't want it to become more user-friendly and want to keep it the best kept secret, then we'll agree to disagree. But otherwise, I was asking for more ideas. Why? Because the Linux Format article got me thinking (clearly, I'm not the only one in the community with this feeling) and also because it's fun to brainstorm/imagine how something we are familiar with could evolve. I was expecting someone would take the leaf and perhaps have a 10 things I'd change about the kernel for example. This is the spirit of my article and this thread. It is clear I haven't expressed it correctly (ironic considering what I said about communication lol) but also, I think there is a bit of over-protectiveness regarding Linux. Constructive criticism won't harm Linux, it will help it being adopted by more users (again, if you don't want that to happen, we can agree to disagree). So for now, I'll stop here as I think I've said what I wanted to say over and over again, and I really don't want this to turn into a heated discussion. The purpose of this was to spur on your imagination, not your argumentative skills lol -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On 02/11/10 17:26, Natalie Hooper wrote: I think some of you are really misunderstanding my purpose here. My purpose isn't to diss Linux, or to complain about it, but to constructively throw ideas as to how to improve its user-friendliness. Now, if you don't want it to become more user-friendly and want to keep it the best kept secret, then we'll agree to disagree. Well, I guess that's where we differ: I don't think there are any secrets... it's all there if you care to look, it's just that you may need to be flexible in the way that you go about looking. Yes, you can ask for it all to be presented to you in a way that you like, but don't be surprised if someone volunteering their time is reluctant to change the way they approach their work just to accommodate that. However, the great thing is that you are at liberty to make that your mission where others are concerned. To summarise, as an outsider I did not find adopting Linux to be an overly unfriendly or exclusive experience, and overcoming those issues where I encountered them has been more of a positive thing for me than otherwise. But otherwise, I was asking for more ideas. Why? Because the Linux Format article got me thinking (clearly, I'm not the only one in the community with this feeling) and also because it's fun to brainstorm/imagine how something we are familiar with could evolve. I was expecting someone would take the leaf and perhaps have a 10 things I'd change about the kernel for example. This is the spirit of my article and this thread. It is clear I haven't expressed it correctly (ironic considering what I said about communication lol) but also, I think there is a bit of over-protectiveness regarding Linux. Constructive criticism won't harm Linux, it will help it being adopted by more users (again, if you don't want that to happen, we can agree to disagree). More users? I am more than happy for more people to adopt Linux as their OS of choice, but I'm not exactly evangelical about it. I certainly don't see a pressing need for Linux to overtake this or that OS in terms of the number of users who adopt it. The way I see it, it's here if you (users) want it, but please don't get upset if they (the developers) don't drop everything to bring it over to you! So for now, I'll stop here as I think I've said what I wanted to say over and over again, and I really don't want this to turn into a heated discussion. The purpose of this was to spur on your imagination, not your argumentative skills lol This discussion is barely above core body temperature, so no need to worry about that Natalie! With regard to arguing points though, I think it is a little naive to chuck out a bunch of constructive criticisms and expect no one to criticise them, constructively. It just happens that I disagree with some of your suggestions (although certainly not all, I might add). Also, I am certainly not defending the status quo, but rather I am saying that I believe the change you are seeking is happening gradually. Leading on from that, one more (hopefully pertinent) question: why does Linux need to change beyond the continuous improvement we already see? I'll qualify that further by asking anyone answering it to step back from this release or that particular release and ponder it over, say, the last five years and several distributions. Sean -- music, film, comics, books, rants and drivel: www.funkygibbins.me.uk -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On Tue, 2010-11-02 at 18:20 +, Sean Gibbins wrote: Leading on from that, one more (hopefully pertinent) question: why does Linux need to change beyond the continuous improvement we already see? I'll qualify that further by asking anyone answering it to step back from this release or that particular release and ponder it over, say, the last five years and several distributions. Sean OK I'll bite Linux has quietly been becoming more 'user' friendly over the past few years, but it's not there yet as a 'normal user desktop'. Let me clarify this - it is for 'me', and I actively promote it amongst my social group and when I was working would slip the odd Linux server in where I could (bearing in mind that for the past x years I worked for windoze software houses) When I say it's not there 'yet' a huge part of this is users not being exposed to Linux. An image issue... I had one guy who whinged constantly about pidgin but shut up when I installed aMSN, the issue? well from what I could tell it was just that it looked different to the MSN Messenger interface he knew These days I can install various distro's on most hardware without having to scratch my head over drivers. But for example Meego which is run by the Linux Foundation, Nokia and others and designed for Netbooks and mobile devices does not ship with the drivers for 'my' netbook's WiFi Yeah 'I' could sort that out... But it would have stumped a 'new' user. If say for example in *buntu I want to change the default application for another I need to know where that new application is in the file system It does not intuitively provide the application as an option or for example, when I fire that application up it does not ask an appropriate question 'Do you want to associate this application to X'. Again not an issue for me but it's been a niggle for a user... I am evangelical about Linux, because it's Open Source, It's community based, because I dislike M$'s licensing, because I'm bloody minded and I love convincing people to use Asterisk rather than spending £££'s on a new PBX, and I really enjoyed the state of confusion that one of my 'clients' had when I explained he didn't have to pay for the bit of 'Dark Magic' software that saved him a day a week's work Whoah I just kinda ranted and made limited sense and wandered way off what I planned to say!!!... Oh well Bryn -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On Tuesday 02 November 2010, Natalie Hooper wrote: @Sean - I've been using Linux since 2005, though I didn't use it at all in 2008/early 2009. As stated before, these things don't stop ME from using Linux/Ubuntu/whatever app I use, but from my experience, they stop new users from using Linux/Ubuntu. I'm not sure where you understand that I wanted to impose my views on how to make it user-friendly - the reason I posted this is to get a whole range of views, not to push my views. Also, it was inspired by an existing article - in fact, about half of the things on my list are in the original article too. As a community, Linux is both exciting and horribly frustrating - technical people don't always make for good communicators, devs quite often get offended if somebody suggests a different solution to a problem, many geeks are prone to patronising those they think of as ignorant, and in my opinion, Linux is suffering from this. For me, Linux users should also teach other computer users about the benefits of open source development and how a PC doesn't need Windows to run, but quite often, the feedback is if you don't know how to do this in Linux, then you understand nothing about it and you should go back to Windows. Not helpful at all in the context of the open source vs closed source dev public debate. Yes, Linux complexity is great and I don't suggest to dumb it down. Most of the changes I would like to see are to do with presentation, not how Linux works deep down. Some changes also require devs/foundations to work together. None of this should be imposed by an outside force, it has got to come from the parties involved obviously. As stated before, I don't have a problem with using Linux, I have overcome whatever issues I have with it but this list was written with the mainstream user in mind. The list is based on my own experience, watching those around me trying to use Ubuntu on my desktops and netbook. Sometimes, when a new user points something out, you just have to admit the way Linux presents itself isn't the best way (for example, the names of apps in Ubuntu software centre, which in itself is a great idea by the way). Other times, you can explain why it works like this but when a user says I don't really need to know all that and you know that the distro you are using is meant to be user-friendly (it's not like I'm using Gentoo!), then again you have to admit that even though there is a reason why something is done a certain way, it might be useful to show fewer options, and allow for a way to show more options (for example, the bootloader). -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue There is also one *teeny* little problem along the required route to Linux utopia. Linux is supposed to be an (albeit pretty sophisticated) dialect of UNIX. And although there aren't alas many of the original unices left now - e.g. HP- UX, Solaris, AIX MacOSX, it is a fairly important issue to many who use Linux in the commercial and scientific world that portability between all these variants is maintained - as far as possible - so I'm afraid a few of your complaints refer to the UNIX way and they are rather difficult to fix and still maintain compatibility. i.e. a lot of the things we take for granted on LInux started life developed for commercial unices. rpm for instance (by my understanding) came about because the (then) standard unix packaging system pkgadd/pkgmk had copyright ownership - so redhat came up with something based on it but better. and (not sure about deb) most of the package managers such as synaptic are built on top of rpm. The original idea for KDE came from CDE (which was again copyright) - the list goes on and on - but most of the things we see are ported straight across from the BSD/SVR4 unices when lack of copyright permits (or gnu provided an almost perfect clone). Just my 10c -- Andy Paterson -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On Tue, 02 Nov 2010 20:52:55 +, s...@funkygibbins.me.uk said: And latterly rpms too... Absolutely (sorry, I should have made that clear). My comment was in response to ...package managers such as synaptic are built on top of rpm. -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
Re: [Dorset] 10 Things I'd change in linux
On 02/11/10 17:26, Natalie Hooper wrote: I think some of you are really misunderstanding my purpose here. My purpose isn't to diss Linux, or to complain about it, but to constructively throw ideas as to how to improve its user-friendliness. I didn't think it was. All valid questions but some will go away (like rpm and dpkg, replaced by yum and apt-get etc based GUI front ends), some are major differences which Windows users will have to learn and others will develop to be more like Windows. Android will have a major effect on Linux adoption in 2011, just like it has with mobile phones this year. After years of moaning about Linux not being like Windows, it will switch to Windows is not like Android/Linux/Mac. John. -- -- Discover Linux - Open Source Solutions to Business and Schools http://discoverlinux.co.uk -- -- Next meeting: Crown Hotel, Blandford Forum, Tuesday 2010-11-02 20:00 Meets, Mailing list, IRC, LinkedIn, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ How to Report Bugs Effectively: http://goo.gl/4Xue
