Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread Kris Mraz
I would recommend that the DXAC simply apply DXCC rule 12, 
specifically 12c:

12. Conduct: Exemplary conduct is expected of all amateur radio 
operators participating in the DXCC program. Evidence of intentionally
disruptive operating practices or inappropriate ethical conduct in any 
aspect of DXCC participation may lead to disqualification from all
participation in the program by action of the ARRL Awards Committee. 

Actions that may lead to disqualification include, but are not 
limited to: 

c) Participation in activities that create an unfavorable impression 
of amateur radio with government authorities. Such activities include
malicious attempts to cause disruption or disaccreditation of an 
operation. 

I believe anyone on a DXpedition who operates on unauthorized 
frequencies in the host country would "create an unfavorable impression 
of amateur radio with government authorities" and therefore the 
operators of the DXpedition should be disqualified from the DXCC 
program.

Secondly, there doesn't seem to be any enforcement actions against
freebanders worldwide (that I've heard of, anyway). Lets keep our
house in order and hope that governments can discern the difference
between hams and freebanders when the situation arises.

Kris N5KM


Ron Notarius WN3VAW wrote:
> 
> Hmmm, this is an interesting concept.  But I don't buy it.  The implication
> being that if something is not overtly declared illegal, then it is legal,
> suffers from a logical fallacy... namely that it has to be "declared" legal
> or illegal to be so.
> 
> Be so as it may... as far as DXCC is concerned, I think that any DX
> operation that also operates in an illegal or illicit fashion (by the rules
> of that particular administration), in addition to their legitimate Amateur
> operation, risks putting Amateur Radio in a bad light by being clumped into
> the same group with the illegals; and that is not limited to just Freeband
> operation, incidently.  Therefore, should such an operation occur, I can
> understand where the DXCC desk may have a concern about legitimacy of the
> entire operation.  However, I'm not really sure that the DXCC desk may WANT
> to have to rule on that.  That can become a political hot potato in and of
> itself... heck, they get flamed enough almost every day over the 7O1A and
> 7O1YGF and similar situations,  I'm sure they don't want to add more of that
> on top.
> 
> The 40 meter situation does not apply, incidently.  The nature of the 40
> meter allocation is the cause of the split phone operations cited, and since
> each Amateur is transmitting (OK, supposed to be transmitting) within their
> allocated frequencies, no violation should take place.
>
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Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread Ron Notarius WN3VAW
Hmmm, this is an interesting concept.  But I don't buy it.  The implication
being that if something is not overtly declared illegal, then it is legal,
suffers from a logical fallacy... namely that it has to be "declared" legal
or illegal to be so.

Be so as it may... as far as DXCC is concerned, I think that any DX
operation that also operates in an illegal or illicit fashion (by the rules
of that particular administration), in addition to their legitimate Amateur
operation, risks putting Amateur Radio in a bad light by being clumped into
the same group with the illegals; and that is not limited to just Freeband
operation, incidently.  Therefore, should such an operation occur, I can
understand where the DXCC desk may have a concern about legitimacy of the
entire operation.  However, I'm not really sure that the DXCC desk may WANT
to have to rule on that.  That can become a political hot potato in and of
itself... heck, they get flamed enough almost every day over the 7O1A and
7O1YGF and similar situations,  I'm sure they don't want to add more of that
on top.

The 40 meter situation does not apply, incidently.  The nature of the 40
meter allocation is the cause of the split phone operations cited, and since
each Amateur is transmitting (OK, supposed to be transmitting) within their
allocated frequencies, no violation should take place.

Now, I don't know if the Chesterfield group actually operated Freeband.  I
do know that the "Sugar Delta" people promoted the alleged Sable operation,
but once the word got out, the promotion collapsed, and I understand that
the Sable group denied any plans to operate illegally.  So I don't know if
we'll ever really know what happened there.

Funny thing, my January QST arrived today, and over in "How's DX?" is a long
article from W3UR about the Freeband situation (though I believe he talks
about the "Alpha Tango" group, which is different from the "SD" group).  How
prescient he was to write that article for publication two months before it
became a hot topic!  In any event, it was noted in the article that one of
major DXpeditions allegedly kicked one of the amateurs off the operation
(sent him back to the boat, is what I think they said) for operating
illegally outside of the Amateur bands.

73, ron wn3vaw

"New Jersey - the most American of all states.  It has everything from
wilderness to the Mafia.  All the great things and all the worst, for
example, Route 22."
Jean Shepherd K2ORS (SK), Newark Sunday News, 11 January 1970

- Original Message -
From: "James Shryne, N6DHZ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "DX Chat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For


At the risk of being boiled in oil for the following let me preface this by
saying I don't support the "Freeband" operations/concept etc. etc.

Everyone keeps saying these operations/operators are illegal. If the
licensing authority of the host country does not deem it illegal then it
would seem to be that the operation is legal. I belive this was the case in
Chesterfield and maybe even Sable Isl. I realize for US Amateurs that these
kinds of operations would be illegal, but in other countries it may not be
considered illegal.

Several of the earlier posts, a week or two ago suggested that these
combined operations be denied DXCC acceptance. I can't see this being done
if the host country does not consider the operations illegal. This would be
the same as the DXCC Desk not accepting split 40m contacts since it is
illegal for US amateurs to operate phone at below 7.150Mhz. Are the South
American stations working below 7.100Mhz Illegal because they would be if
they were located in the US?

I guess the countries that allow these type of operations may be in
violation of some international agreement in which case it should be taken
up with the international governing body to apply some sanction to the
specific country allowing these operations.

I realize this does not address the myriad of other problems that these
types of operations can cause. Such as landing on an island without proper
permission as was suggested was done by one group or violating a wildlife
sanctuary etc. All of which can make it that much harder for licensed
operations to get proper permissions.

Ok I feel better now, I have my flame resistant suit on and my finger
hovering over the send button.



73 & Good DX
James Shryne, N6DHZ
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread John Warren
James N6DHZ wrote:


Everyone keeps saying these operations/operators are illegal. If the 
licensing authority of the host country does not deem it illegal 
then it would seem to be that the operation is legal. I belive this 
was the case in Chesterfield...
Several of the earlier posts, a week or two ago suggested that these 
combined operations be denied DXCC acceptance. I can't see this 
being done if the host country does not consider the operations 
illegal.

But most of the stations they worked WERE illegal James, because the 
situation which is alleged to exist in New Caledonia certainly does 
not exist in most other countries. And don't kid yourself - They knew 
that!

This would be the same as the DXCC Desk not accepting split 40m 
contacts since it is illegal for US amateurs to operate phone at 
below 7.150Mhz. Are the South American stations working below 
7.100Mhz Illegal because they would be if they were located in the 
US?

Not so. This is not an accurate analogy. In the case of 40M split, 
BOTH stations are operating 100% legally. That's rarely if ever true 
in freebanding.

What I can't understand is why any licensed amateur would WANT to 
operate freeband?  Perhaps some of the Chesterfield or Sable Island 
crew can explain?

73, John, NT5C.
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Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread John and Mari Minke
Not really, and you answered this yourself. 22.72 amps! Of course, you would
be using the same type of circuit as for your electric clothes dryer. If
you use a double-oven you might even be using a 50 amp circuit. No need for
three-phase.

John N6JM

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
>  Running 5KW from the average residential place might be hard to do.
> Normally to run this type of power you need three-phase primary power and
> this is usually not available in residential areas --- in fact it is often
> hard to obtain in light-industrial areas.
> 
>   Figure it out for yourself, even running a primary power of 220 voltrs,
> for just the final alone you would need 5000/220 or 22.72 amps, not counting
> the rest of the rig and accessories.
> 
>   Tom Orr,   W6HT

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[DX-CHAT] high power hams

2002-12-17 Thread JAMES ABERCROMBIE
I saw many posts saying it is impossible to run 5 kw on 240 single phase service. An electric range in the kitchen pulls more power than that. I am going out on a limb and name two hams who have admitted they used to run Henry 8 K amps. One drove it with a GLA 1000 dentron and the other drove it with an Ameritron ALS-600. One was AE4N of 3915 and 3898 fame and the other was K4OKA. The latter had the Henry 8 K in his shack when he was visited by Riley during an inspection. I believe this was mentioned in one ARRL article. I heard AE4N brag on 3915 about selling the 8K to a CB'ER. I have never approved of this practice. My amp only runs 1200 or 1300 Watts and I seldom run it.As a matter of fact the AM broadcast station where I work used to run a transmitter that used a 4CX3000A as a linear amp. The input power on 125 percent modulation peaks exceeded 12000 watts input with 5000 watts p.e.p.output on modulation peaks running class AB1. That transmitter ran on 240 v 3 phase.


Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread James Shryne, N6DHZ
At the risk of being boiled in oil for the following let me preface this by 
saying I don't support the "Freeband" operations/concept etc. etc.

Everyone keeps saying these operations/operators are illegal. If the 
licensing authority of the host country does not deem it illegal then it 
would seem to be that the operation is legal. I belive this was the case in 
Chesterfield and maybe even Sable Isl. I realize for US Amateurs that these 
kinds of operations would be illegal, but in other countries it may not be 
considered illegal.

Several of the earlier posts, a week or two ago suggested that these 
combined operations be denied DXCC acceptance. I can't see this being done 
if the host country does not consider the operations illegal. This would be 
the same as the DXCC Desk not accepting split 40m contacts since it is 
illegal for US amateurs to operate phone at below 7.150Mhz. Are the South 
American stations working below 7.100Mhz Illegal because they would be if 
they were located in the US?

I guess the countries that allow these type of operations may be in 
violation of some international agreement in which case it should be taken 
up with the international governing body to apply some sanction to the 
specific country allowing these operations.

I realize this does not address the myriad of other problems that these 
types of operations can cause. Such as landing on an island without proper 
permission as was suggested was done by one group or violating a wildlife 
sanctuary etc. All of which can make it that much harder for licensed 
operations to get proper permissions.

Ok I feel better now, I have my flame resistant suit on and my finger 
hovering over the send button.



73 & Good DX
James Shryne, N6DHZ	
[EMAIL PROTECTED]	/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.qsl.net/n6dhz
http://www.sasquatchnet.org

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Re: [DX-CHAT] high power hams

2002-12-17 Thread Kelly Jones
Big AL and "NUKEM"!  :-)  Haven't heard those calls in a while.  I also
know another ham that has an 8K sitting "in a closet", or at least he did
the last time I asked about it, but he still had never plugged it in.
Those things weigh a TON!

Don't think the BIG amps aren't out there.  I saw with my own eyes a CBer
key down 35,000 watts.  Yes, that's no missing decimal point.  And this
was in a mobile!  Under the hood of his Suburban he had 6 alternators
which were configured to provide 3 phase.  I believe "box" contained a
3CX5.  He was using a Bird wattmeter with a 50k slug for his
"demonstration".

Some may find this link interesting:
http://www.radiotech.org/messageview.cfm?catid=14&threadid=4426

I couldn't find a picture of the Suburban I saw, but his name is mentioned
in that link.  It was a sight to see.

On a side note, when he keyed down, standing next to 35k gives you a
really "freaky" feeling.  Very uncomfortable to say the least.

Kelly - KE9KD
http://www.dx-central.com




On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, JAMES ABERCROMBIE wrote:

> I saw many posts saying it is impossible to run 5 kw on 240 single phase service. An 
>electric range in the kitchen pulls more power than that. I am going out on a limb 
>and name two hams who have admitted they used to run Henry 8 K amps. One drove it 
>with a GLA 1000 dentron and the other drove it with an Ameritron ALS-600. One was 
>AE4N of 3915 and 3898 fame and the other was K4OKA. The latter had the Henry 8 K in 
>his shack when he was visited by Riley during an inspection. I believe this was 
>mentioned in one ARRL article. I heard AE4N brag on 3915 about selling the 8K to a 
>CB'ER. I have never approved of this practice. My amp only runs 1200 or 1300 Watts 
>and I seldom run it.
> As a matter of fact the AM broadcast station where I work used to run a transmitter 
>that used a 4CX3000A as a linear amp. The input power on 125 percent modulation peaks 
>exceeded 12000 watts input with 5000 watts p.e.p.output on modulation peaks running 
>class AB1. That transmitter ran on 240 v 3 phase.
>

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[DX-CHAT] Losing Sleep (was: Be Careful What You Wish For)

2002-12-17 Thread Zack Widup
On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, Ron Notarius WN3VAW wrote:

> 
> In any event, the discussion has kinda veered off the original point,
> which was to simply let you know that the bootleggers aren't too happy
> with us licensed-types being involved (directly or indirectly) in
> interfering in some of their (illegal) operations.  I wouldn't lose TOO
> much sleep over it... I have a hunch we've already given it more
> attention than it's worth.  Still, it is something negative sitting out
> there on the web, and if we don't keep an eye on it once in a while, it
> could come back to haunt us.
> 
> 73, ron wn3vaw
> 

I reserve the loss of sleep for DXpeditions to places I haven't worked
yet.  :-)

Most of the places I need are going to be on grayline propagation, which
means I'll have to be on the air at sunrise/sunset.  If I get the desire
to work all of the Pacific on 80 or 160 meters, I'll lose some sleep to do
so.

I remember well when 3Y0PI was active, I lost a LOT of sleep.  But I also
worked ZY0SP, St. Peter and Paul's Rocks, for another new one as an added
bonus for staying up late so many nights.

For a while I had this weird knack of waking up in the middle of the
night, going to the shack, turning on the rig on 80 CW and hearing a
station in a country I hadn't worked on that band calling CQ.  I'd work
him before he got spotted on packet and go back to bed. Seems like I
haven't been able to do that since I got DXCC on 80 meters. 

73, Zack W9SZ

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Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread Ron Notarius WN3VAW



 
Incidently, there was someone at Hamvention last Spring who was handing out 
flyers to everyone in the HARA ice rink grandstand (and probably elsewhere too) 
advertising an HF amplifier... I don't want to name the company, but the call of 
the owner starts with the letter "I"... theoretically capable of 7.0 kW output 
for 400 W of drive, 3.5 kW out for 150 W of drive.  However, the amp also 
requires either 220 V single phase or 380 / 420 V 3 phase.  (And yes, I'm 
sure of those numbers, I have the flyer right here in front of me!)  And 
granted, in all fairness, it is not just being marketed to amateurs, and the 
flyer also mentions that the Ham Version is limited to 1.5 kW out, 100% duty 
cycle.  
 
But the point is, the amps are available, and if someone has the will and 
the means, they could sure put together a bad mutha of a station.  And if 
they do so, I hope they enjoy that private and personal chat with Riley!
73, ron wn3vaw
 
"New Jersey - the most American of all states.  It has everything from 
wilderness to the Mafia.  All the great things and all the worst, for 
example, Route 22."Jean Shepherd K2ORS (SK), Newark Sunday News, 11 January 
1970

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ray 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 4:18 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What 
  You Wish For
  
  


  
Well put, Tom.
To run 5KW Output you would need 8KW input...well beyond the
normal single phase service to the average ham shack.
I think our friend in Iowa was merely making a shot gun 
approach
statement without any facts to back it up.
K6VX
 
snip>
  Running 5KW from the average 
residential place might be hard to do.  Normally to run this type 
of power you need three-phase primary power and this is usually not 
available in residential areas --- in fact it is often hard to obtain in 
light-industrial areas.  Figure it 
out for yourself, even running a primary power of 220 voltrs, for just 
the final alone you would need 5000/220 or 22.72 amps, not counting the 
rest of the rig and accessories.  
Tom Orr,   W6HT
 

  

  
  





Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread Ron Notarius WN3VAW



Well... there have been a few documented cases of individuals 
who have been running extremely high power (ie 5 kW).  While I do not 
recall all the details, I do remember hearing a speech from a very prominent FCC 
attorney indicating that they had indeed busted someone running that much power, 
and his shack included 3 Phase commercial power and custom built 
amplifiers.  However, this is the exception by far, not the 
norm.
 
In any event, the discussion has kinda veered off the original 
point, which was to simply let you know that the bootleggers aren't too happy 
with us licensed-types being involved (directly or indirectly) in interfering in 
some of their (illegal) operations.  I wouldn't lose TOO much sleep over 
it... I have a hunch we've already given it more attention than it's 
worth.  Still, it is something negative sitting out there on the web, and 
if we don't keep an eye on it once in a while, it could come back to haunt 
us.
73, ron 
wn3vaw
 
"New Jersey - the most American of all states.  It has 
everything from wilderness to the Mafia.  All the great things and all the 
worst, for example, Route 22."Jean Shepherd K2ORS (SK), Newark Sunday News, 
11 January 1970

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 3:44 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What 
  You Wish For
   Running 5KW from the average 
  residential place might be hard to do.  Normally to run this type of 
  power you need three-phase primary power and this is usually not available in 
  residential areas --- in fact it is often hard to obtain in light-industrial 
  areas.  Figure it out for yourself, even 
  running a primary power of 220 voltrs, for just the final alone you would need 
  5000/220 or 22.72 amps, not counting the rest of the rig and 
  accessories.  Tom Orr,   
  W6HTIn a message dated 12/17/2002 9:22:28 AM Pacific Standard 
  Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  They know what they're doing is illegal and they don't care that 
it'sillegal and they don't care how you feel about it. Just like the 
many 75meter ops who run 5,000 
watts.


Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread ray








  Well put, Tom.
  To run 5KW Output you would need 8KW input...well beyond the
  normal single phase service to the average ham shack.
  I think our friend in Iowa was merely making a shot gun 
approach
  statement without any facts to back it up.
  K6VX
   
  snip>
    Running 5KW from the average 
  residential place might be hard to do.  Normally to run this type of 
  power you need three-phase primary power and this is usually not available 
  in residential areas --- in fact it is often hard to obtain in 
  light-industrial areas.  Figure it 
  out for yourself, even running a primary power of 220 voltrs, for just the 
  final alone you would need 5000/220 or 22.72 amps, not counting the rest 
  of the rig and accessories.  Tom 
  Orr,   W6HT
   





	
	
	
	
	
	
	








Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread Htorr
 Running 5KW from the average residential place might be hard to do.  Normally to run this type of power you need three-phase primary power and this is usually not available in residential areas --- in fact it is often hard to obtain in light-industrial areas.

  Figure it out for yourself, even running a primary power of 220 voltrs, for just the final alone you would need 5000/220 or 22.72 amps, not counting the rest of the rig and accessories.

  Tom Orr,   W6HT



In a message dated 12/17/2002 9:22:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

They know what they're doing is illegal and they don't care that it's
illegal and they don't care how you feel about it. Just like the many 75
meter ops who run 5,000 watts.





Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread JV
Hi Ron
Ever heard of Gator Stakes?  Same as Free Band, hi hi.
JV




"many . . . who run 5,000 watts."

Really? I must be living in a jaded area. I live in the greater Lansing
Michigan area and I have been to many shacks and several contest stations
and have not seen such power present.

Ron ND5S



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[DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread ray








  Anything over 5W to the ex CBers sounds like 5KW...
  Wonder how many vanity calls he will try B4 he finds the one he 
  likes.
   
  //snipThey know what they're doing is 
  illegal and they don't care that it'sillegal and they don't care how 
  you feel about it. Just like the many 75meter ops who run 5,000 
  watts.//snip"many . . . who run 5,000 
  watts."Really? I must be living in a jaded area. I live in the 
  greater LansingMichigan area and I have been to many shacks and 
  several contest stationsand have not seen such power 
  present.Ron ND5SSubscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, 
  problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chatTo 
  post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED]This is the 
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Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread ronsue
//snip

They know what they're doing is illegal and they don't care that it's
illegal and they don't care how you feel about it. Just like the many 75
meter ops who run 5,000 watts.

//snip

"many . . . who run 5,000 watts."

Really?  I must be living in a jaded area.  I live in the greater Lansing
Michigan area and I have been to many shacks and several contest stations
and have not seen such power present.

Ron ND5S


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Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread Scott Manthe
No, my long winded post said that we should clean up our own back yards
before we worry about someone else's.

73,
Scott, W9AL

>
> Your long-winded post appears to say that you think the freebanders are
> justified, since some hams also break the rules. An interesting concept.
> If you follow it in your daily life, I am glad we are not neighbors.
>
> This philosophy has been used many times to justify breaking the law. It
> is at best irresponsible, and at worst, sociopathic.
>
> Get it straight, the "freebanders" are OUTLAWS! They should be arrested,
> charged, and most importantly, put off the air!
>
> ---



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Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH) Watson

I'm really struggling with this discussion and the amount of
verbiage involved.  Illegal means against the law; period. 
It's a lot like pregnant.  Either you are, or you aren't. If you are
operating illegally on or off the ham bands, your butt belongs in
jail.

"age and treachery will overcome
youth and skill"

Outgoing Mail Scanned by Norton Antivirus
2002


Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread Zack Widup
On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, Scott Manthe wrote:

> >
> > These people seem to be completely oblivious or ignorant of the fact that
> > what they are doing is illegal.
> 
> They know what they're doing is illegal and they don't care that it's
> illegal and they don't care how you feel about it. Just like the many 75
> meter ops who run 5,000 watts.
> 

I don't operate 75 meters and I rarely listen there. I've heard people
tell me that some hams are running 5,000 watts there but I've never been
to their stations to verify it.  97% of my operating is on CW and the
other 3% these days has been on the new digital modes. I will work SSB for
the Sweepstakes contest so the Society of Midwest Contesters will have a
few more points in their cumulative score.  (GO SMC!) 

> >
> > Yes, you can extend friendship to a criminal in the hopes of getting the
> > person to mend his ways, but what about when he doesn't?  I have always
> > been legally licensed and have never knowingly done anything illegal with
> > my radio equipment.  I expect no less of others.
> 
> It's nice that you're so diligent and concientious, Zack. Unfortunately,
> many of your fellow amateurs don't hold the rules in nearly as high regard
> as you. Take a listen to any band during a major (especially phone) contest
> weekend. Do you actually think the guys operating against the band edges and
> outside the bandplans don't know what they're doing? How about the guys who
> run 10 times as much power as they need to, in direct opposition to part 97?
> Anytime you run more power than you have to, you're operating illegally. Are
> you sure you've never run afoul of the law? And how about the "Hi-Fi" SSB
> guys, who in their minds, don't "technically" break any rules, but certainly
> assail good amateur practice by using twice as much spectrum as they need
> to?

You're making me feel like I'm the only one who DOES follow the rules.
No, I've never intentionally broken a law, not even the "minimum power
required" rule.  I don't own an amp.  I have three rigs that run 100 watts
barefoot.  And I throttle down if the other guy is loud here and gives me 
a big report. I don't mind getting 559 signal reports.

And I know many hams who also follow the laws to the best of their
ability.  My guess is that the majority of them do.  As a guess based on
personal experience, the number who break the laws are no more than 20%.
That's a minority.  It's still not OK in my book, but I'll bet it's less
than you think.

> 
> >
> > I hope I'm not sounding too harsh, but I didn't grow up in the freebander
> > atmosphere.
> 
> Is amateur radio really all that free of the "freebander atmosphere"? Take a
> listen to 75 meters on the weekend or just about any pile-up. Ask yourself
> how many people you know who run more than (sometimes many times) the legal
> limit. Is it better that we break the law because we have a license, or is
> it worse? Aren't those hams who knowingly break the rules just as bad as the
> freebanders who don't care? I hope I don't sound too harsh, but many of us
> amateurs feel that we're better than those freebanders, mostly because we're
> licensed. But I contend that quite a few as are just as bad or worse than
> they are, because if you work for something, aren't you supposed to respect
> it? And I don't want to hear ANY BS about how amateur radio's been dumbed
> down and how much harder it was for you to get your license way back when
> than it is now. A change in requirements doesn't justify disrespecting the
> people in the hobby or the rules that govern it. No matter when you got your
> ticket.

It's not OK to break the laws, whether you're licensed or not.  Amateurs
who do should be dealt with.  But at least they have licenses issued by
their respective governments and their operations aren't TOTALLY illegal.

If you get stopped by a policeman for speeding and you're a licensed
driver, you get a ticket.  If you get stopped for speeding and you don't
have a driver's license, you get arrested. 

If you're a licensed ham and Riley suspects you've done something illegal,
he will issue a query.  There is a little of the "benefit of the doubt"
available there.  If you're doing freeband operations, I don't think he's
so lenient.

> 
>  Too many of us feel like we only need to follow the rules that we want to.
> This is a kind freebander attitude and it will certainly do much more harm
> to amateur radio than illegal 11 meter operators.
> 
> 73,
> Scott, W9AL
> 

Who are these "too many of us"?  Like I said, of all the hams in this area
that I know, I've only seen one perform any sort of illegal operation (and
I told him about it). And I don't live a sheltered life.  I've been in
many M/S efforts in contests in these here parts. I've probably been in
the shacks of most of the DXers and contesters around here.

You have to PROVE that a licensed ham is doing something illegal in order
to fine or penalize him for it.  Freebanders are illegal by nature.  You
don't h

Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread John E Bastin, K8AJS
At 1:08 AM -0600 12/17/02, Scott Manthe wrote:

And I don't want to hear ANY BS about how amateur radio's been dumbed
down and how much harder it was for you to get your license way back when
than it is now. A change in requirements doesn't justify disrespecting the
people in the hobby or the rules that govern it. No matter when you got your
ticket.

 Too many of us feel like we only need to follow the rules that we want to.
This is a kind freebander attitude and it will certainly do much more harm
to amateur radio than illegal 11 meter operators.


Well said, Scott!

73,
--

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Re: [DX-CHAT] Be Careful What You Wish For

2002-12-17 Thread W2AGN
On 17 Dec 2002 at 1:08, Scott Manthe wrote:

> It's nice that you're so diligent and concientious, Zack. 
Unfortunately,
> many of your fellow amateurs don't hold the rules in nearly as high 
regard
> as you. Take a listen to any band during a major (especially phone) 
contest
> weekend. Do you actually think the guys operating against the band 
edges and
> outside the bandplans don't know what they're doing? How about the guys 
who
> run 10 times as much power as they need to, in direct opposition to 
part 97?
> Anytime you run more power than you have to, you're operating 
illegally. Are
> you sure you've never run afoul of the law? And how about the "Hi-Fi" 
SSB
> guys, who in their minds, don't "technically" break any rules, but 
certainly
> assail good amateur practice by using twice as much spectrum as they 
need
> to?


Your long-winded post appears to say that you think the freebanders are 
justified, since some hams also break the rules. An interesting concept. 
If you follow it in your daily life, I am glad we are not neighbors. 

This philosophy has been used many times to justify breaking the law. It 
is at best irresponsible, and at worst, sociopathic. 

Get it straight, the "freebanders" are OUTLAWS! They should be arrested, 
charged, and most importantly, put off the air!

---
+-++-++-++-++-+   John L. Sielke
|W||2||A||G||N|http://www.w2agn.net [UPDATED]
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