[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
Todd Boyle wrote When will this begin to happen? What is the missing enzyme we're lacking ? - convenience aspects? - better security on the users' computers? - hardware signing devices? - better data integration in B2B business processes? - trust in the host? Do we need deposit insurance? Good god, we're already 100% gold backed, what more could they want? For me the magic will happen when: 1) I earn more e-gold. 2) I can spend e-gold for the things I need. -- Life, Love and Laughter, Dale Pond Sympathetic Vibratory Physics Sacred Science - Sacred Life http://www.svpvril.com SVP Discussion Forum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svpvril/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
... But wouldn't it be nice if we get the certainty of gold in commerce, without the cost of unnecessarily large reserves. Unnecessarily large reserves? Please, let's not talk about fractional reserves! Actually, I think your example, (where Joe buys GBC to pay a seller, who subsequently cashes it in for currency within an hour), draws upon a false assumption. When Joe buys the GBC, no new gold is being bailed-in; rather the gold is being bought from an exchange service and is being transferred from their account. Likewise, when the seller sells the GBC, no gold is being bailed-out; rather the gold is being transferred to the account of an exchange service. It is only when gold accounts run low does new gold get bailed-in. SnowDog __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
On 26 Aug 2001, at 12:22, SnowDog wrote: Goldfinger Coin and Bullion is selling GoldMoney GoldGrams for only 2%. They must be bailing in the gold to offer this kind of rate. It is good to see spreads coming down but somehow it doesn't make me feel like jumping up and down, cheering. It's kind of inevitable, isn't it? Prices of commodities always gravitate down to the cost of production and the variable cost of executing GBC trades is way down there below 1%, at volume. GBC may be good money, better money than national currencies. In theory, good money is supposed to chase out bad money. When will this begin to happen? What is the missing enzyme we're lacking ? - convenience aspects? - better security on the users' computers? - hardware signing devices? - better data integration in B2B business processes? - trust in the host? Do we need deposit insurance? Good god, we're already 100% gold backed, what more could they want? Maybe we need an uber-protocol that provides the programmatic equivalent of deposit insurance? Win their trust by requiring approvals of all GBC consortium members to execute any movements of reserves? Can we drop in place, some of these voting protocols discussed in WOTE http://www.vote.caltech.edu/wote01/ to achieve publicly visible separation of duties? We need to reduce the reliance on image, such as retrospective audits by big-5 auditors, naming bigshot law firms as trustees, etc. Surely the collaboration of GBC providers is part of the equation. Recall that VISA consortium of banks happened only after hundreds of banks got exhaustion trying to establish their own, proprietary credit cards. VISA still isn't a credit card itself, it is a consortium, can we get a clue from this? TOdd Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:08:43 -0400 Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: eCurrencyCrawler [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 26 Aug 2001, at 12:22, SnowDog wrote: Goldfinger Coin and Bullion is selling GoldMoney GoldGrams for only 2%. They must be bailing in the gold to offer this kind of rate. And that is the way it should be. If we want digital gold currencies and gold-backed currencies to rival national currencies one of these days, some excessive spreads of 5-13% that are currently in force will have to come down to 2-3%. EXACTLY! It's simple competition for market share... those that cannot compete will be dropped along the side leaving only those that can afford to chop the rate. e-gold will have no choice to make it easy to bail in. Otherwise, GoldMoney and e-bullion might well win this game over the long term. You're right, this is a possibility. ...my 2 cents. RJ eCurrencyCrawler http://www.americonn.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
At 12:44 AM 8/28/2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (One point .. note that all growth in any DGC comes from bailed in bars. Even if the buy-back trade is 10,000,000 billion per day, the DGC in question has stopped growing unless bars are being bailed in ... at 2-4% for e-gold, or 0% for GM. LOGICALLY, when growth rates are very high, even if there were any large merchants, it all has to come from bailing-in.) Hmmm what about velocity? You could imagine GBC serving its vital role only as a lubricant at the point of exchange then being returned immediately to some settlement lubrication agent. e.g. Joe buys something on ebay. Joe gets some GBC at very low transaction cost somehow, uses it to pay the other guy, and the seller cashes it in, within a few seconds. Somebody please refute the argument. At least, velocity enters the picture someplace, I do agree, total reserves is a factor as well. But wouldn't it be nice if we get the certainty of gold in commerce, without the cost of unnecessarily large reserves. Todd --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
On 29 Aug 2001, at 8:52, Todd Boyle wrote: Hmmm what about velocity? Of course, velocity is a sign of health. But the real measure of the success of the DGC and GBC will be the size of the money stock and reserves. That is what shows how confident users are in using, holding and saving the gold currencies. e-gold current average balance on only 17g per funded account shows that they do not understand gold and do not trust the currency enough to let their balance grow. The fact that they are cashing it for national currencies shows where their trust is. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
Hmmm what about velocity? You could imagine GBC serving its vital role only as a lubricant at the point of exchange then being returned immediately to some settlement lubrication agent. e.g. Joe buys something on ebay. Joe gets some GBC at very low transaction cost somehow, uses it to pay the other guy, and the seller cashes it in, within a few seconds. This assumes GBC's would be used solely or mostly to convert between other currencies. Yes, the GBC's are 'lubricant' now, but only because not enough merchants accept them. In the future, that same seller will not want or need to convert back to another currency. For now, gold is greasing the tracks of fiat commerce, however the long term goal is to directly replace a major fraction of that money flow. The measure of this replacement is the growth of gold in storage. I think it is more significant than the velocity, especially at this early stage in the gold economy. Dave Brooks Editor / Bricks of Gold Website eZine --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
I'd say that the average is more than 5% for retail. For sure, with users willing to pay 7%-15% to obtain e-gold, fees may stay high for a longtime. The high fees are used to offset the high fraud costs associated with the conversion of soft currency to hard currency. Large amounts (10's of kg) of e-gold can be obtained without ever bothering with bailing in metal bars. Merchants receive e-gold without paying more than a 1% fee Which merchants ? Any merchant who accepts e-gold. They receive e-gold without paying any exchange fees by accepting e-gold in payment for service or product. They only have to pay the (at most) 1% transaction fee. This is much less then the 2.5-4+% that credit cards charge. They should then have no issues with a MM exchanging national currency evenly for e-gold. The MM then has e-gold for zero cost (minus cost of national currency payment method). *Currently* there aren't that many large merchants (JP, I don't mean the EREs you keep moaning about). However, this will change with time. e-gold is still coming out of it's formative stages. e-gold's growth show absolutely no signs of even slowing down. However, some people are irritatingly impatient with the measly ~30%/month growth and are clamoring for the flash-in-the-pan growth demonstrated by the payment systems that have come and gone in recent past. Viking Coder Worth Two Cents? http://www.two-cents-worth.com/?VikingCoder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
Large amounts (10's of kg) of e-gold can be obtained without ever bothering with bailing in metal bars. Merchants receive e-gold without paying more than a 1% fee Which merchants ? Any merchant who accepts e-gold. ... *Currently* there aren't that many large merchants aren't any, I suppose. However, this will change with time. I guess so. In the meantime, GoldMoney has tremendously LESS activity than e-gold, but GoldMoney is available (in bar sizes) for spot, today, whereas e-gold is only available at 2-4 percent (in bar sizes) today. It is whacky to try to argue that this is not a HUGE advantage for GoldMoney. GoldMoney 1, e-gold 0, on the bailing-in-bars front. It's a no brainer. I'm the biggest fan of e-gold, but GoldMoney have spanked e-gold on this particular issue... I have no idea if it will prove to be a critical advantage for GoldMoney. ~30%/month growth (One point .. note that all growth in any DGC comes from bailed in bars. Even if the buy-back trade is 10,000,000 billion per day, the DGC in question has stopped growing unless bars are being bailed in ... at 2-4% for e-gold, or 0% for GM. LOGICALLY, when growth rates are very high, even if there were any large merchants, it all has to come from bailing-in.) --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
On 28 Aug 2001, at 2:29, Viking Coder wrote: The high fees are used to offset the high fraud costs associated with the conversion of soft currency to hard currency. In the case of the very few MM who take credit cards, I agree. But you will finds rates of 7-13% on things like cashiers's checks and bank wires on a regulat basis. A nonsense IMO. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
Craig, I wholesale e-gold for less than that .. on a semi-regular basis .. to my circle of MM clients. However you think 2% for GoldMoney is impressive? On orders of GoldMoney over US$75,000, Coconutgold offers ONE-HALF A PERCENT (that's a big SIC ... 0.5%) on GoldMoney purchases! How's that pal ??! JP May Coconutgold (BTW I had to uselessly 'reply to all recipients,' Craig, as I'm on an unfamiliar computer, so sorry for the useless cc.) --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
The point I was emphasizing was that it appears that someone is bailing in bars, into the GoldMoney system, other than FideliTrade, which seems to have given up. FideliTrade is no longer listed as a cambio on GoldMoney's site. Doesn't it seem a little odd that GoldMoney's only original exchange provider has stopped providing that service after only 6 months? On the matter of exchange fees... The main reasons for an avg. 5% fee have very little, if anything, to do with the inabillity to bail in bars? (right?) Large amounts (10's of kg) of e-gold can be obtained without ever bothering with bailing in metal bars. Merchants receive e-gold without paying more than a 1% fee (while paying much larger fees to receive national currency with credit cards). They then, usually, must exchange said e-gold for their national currency. It is therefore possible for exchange providers to inexpensively obtain large amounts of e-gold without bailing in bars. Viking Coder Worth Two Cents? http://www.two-cents-worth.com/?VikingCoder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
On the matter of exchange fees... The main reasons for an avg. 5% fee have very little, if anything, to do with the inabillity to bail in bars? (right?) I disagree! I think they would be about 2% less, if they start taking JP up on his offer, or bailing in bars. Large amounts (10's of kg) of e-gold can be obtained without ever bothering with bailing in metal bars. Merchants receive e-gold without paying more than a 1% fee (while paying much larger fees to receive national currency with credit cards). They then, usually, must exchange said e-gold for their national currency. It is therefore possible for exchange providers to inexpensively obtain large amounts of e-gold without bailing in bars. This works for some Exchange Services which have worked out deals with popular merchants, (who shall remain nameless). However, (and someone still in the trade could correct me quite easily), most merchants sell their e-gold to Omnipay, leaving the Exchange Services to buy their e-gold from Omnipay at 2%, right? Also, all new e-gold must now come from Omnipay, otherwise the e-gold system wouldn't grow. This means that there is a demand for e-gold in excess of the outexchanges, when e-gold is growing. SnowDog --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
On 26 Aug 2001, at 22:14, Viking Coder wrote: FideliTrade is no longer listed as a cambio on GoldMoney's site. Doesn't it seem a little odd that GoldMoney's only original exchange provider has stopped providing that service after only 6 months? Nothing odd there. They just were not ready to wait more than 6 months for the product to get into high gear. GoldMoney has yet to start major marketing as they are still tuning their system, and this was probably not to Fidelitrade liking. On the matter of exchange fees... The main reasons for an avg. 5% fee have very little, if anything, to do with the inabillity to bail in bars? (right?) I'd say that the average is more than 5% for retail. For sure, with users willing to pay 7%-15% to obtain e-gold, fees may stay high for a longtime. But there should be no doubt that the ability to bail bars will help bring down the rates.. Large amounts (10's of kg) of e-gold can be obtained without ever bothering with bailing in metal bars. Merchants receive e-gold without paying more than a 1% fee Which merchants ? It is therefore possible for exchange providers to inexpensively obtain large amounts of e-gold without bailing in bars. I would like some names. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Viking Coder wrote: The point I was emphasizing was that it appears that someone is bailing in bars, into the GoldMoney system, other than FideliTrade, which seems to have given up. FideliTrade is no longer listed as a cambio on GoldMoney's site. Doesn't it seem a little odd that GoldMoney's only original exchange provider has stopped providing that service after only 6 months? On the matter of exchange fees... The main reasons for an avg. 5% fee have very little, if anything, to do with the inabillity to bail in bars? (right?) I'm afraid this is wrong, Viking! I am the only e-gold wholesaler other than Omnipay, so I would think I know this scene. In fact what you are talking about is our stock in trade every single day. Every single day, numerous times, an MM write s me saying gee, can I get any gold under 2-3% from you today JP? If only I could pay less than 2-3% wholesale I could charge less at retail This is an obviosity: the price civillians pay at retail is either (a) what omnipay charges wholesale (2 to 4%, depending on which MM it is) plus what the retailer charges or (b) what I charge wholesale (!) plus the retailer's percentage. If the wholesale part, me or omnipay, decreases by say 2.4%, the retail price will go down by that percentage. Fact! Large amounts (10's of kg) of e-gold can be obtained without ever bothering with bailing in metal bars. Not sure how that is relevant.. Merchants .. You must be talking about Bananagold, which I own, or TheGoldCasino -- and Coconutgold has the exclusive contract to buy gold from TGC! (Am I an insider or what? :) ) receive e-gold without paying more than a 1% fee (while paying much larger fees to receive national currency with credit cards). They then, usually, must exchange said e-gold for their national currency. Yup, thats what bananagold and indirecly TGC do, both through Coconut! It is therefore possible for exchange providers to inexpensively obtain large amounts of e-gold without bailing in bars. This is absolutely correct, but competelty wrong in practice, because it only amounts to a trivial amount of gold. It's not complicated -- all you're saying is sometimes MMs get gold directly from people selling gold to the MMs It amounts to nothing, though. ie, MMs are always buying gold at wholesale from Omnipay (and a trivial amount from me) Anyway, GoldMOney is now available, right now, do it, at virtually-nothing over SPOT (send me an email) whereas e-gold is only available at 2-3% over spot. If you can be bothered organizing it with GoldMoney and a bullion dealer etc, GoldMOney is availabel right now at EXACTLTY spot, although, GM would probably suggest you just deal with me and pay a few hundred buck fee, and avoid the hassle. Yes, as you say Viking, occasionally MMs get some gold directly fropm people selling it, but it amounts to no volume, sadly. JP! Viking Coder Worth Two Cents? http://www.two-cents-worth.com/?VikingCoder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GoldMoney Bailment
Omnipay at 2%, right? Also, all new e-gold must now come from Omnipay, otherwise the e-gold system wouldn't grow. This means that there is a demand for e-gold in excess of the outexchanges, when e-gold is growing. SnowDog Precisly righ, Craig! Question: (i) who can buy e-gold at spot Answer: Omnipay. Question: (ii) who can buy GoldMoney at spot: Answer: Anyone, with a very modest amount of hassle, or, absolutely anyone, with absolutely no hassle, if you're willing to pay Coconut a very modest fee of a couple hundred bucks. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
