Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Guy, K2AV wrote: If one wants to dig up the research... http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/human-hearing-amplitude-sensitivity-part-1 Speaking now in terms of dB SPL, the minimum discernable changes by the human ear/brain mechanism I've seen in the research that I've reviewed ranged from about 0.5 dB to 3 dB, depending on a number of factors. Table 1 (see the referenced link above or below) In Table 1 we see a collection of studies spanning 60 years. It should be kept in mind that in each case the results were obtained under laboratory-ideal conditions. Even so, we see a range of values from .25 dB to 3 dB. The resultant range is owing to varying methodologies used by the researchers and, of course, the response of the human hearing apparatus to the applied acoustic signals. SNIP From the third column of Table 1, we see the minimum detectable value, for the most part, hovers around 1 dB, +/- a fraction of a dB, and that attainable only with ideal (or at least as ideal as technology allowed for at the time the study was done) laboratory test conditions and test subjects. I tend to use .75 dB to 1 dB when considering minimums. http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/human-hearing-amplitude-sensitivity-part-1 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4170175.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Bill, W4ZV wrote: Guy, K2AV wrote: If one wants to dig up the research... http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/human-hearing-amplitude-sensitivity-part-1 Speaking now in terms of dB SPL, the minimum discernable changes by the human ear/brain mechanism I've seen in the research that I've reviewed ranged from about 0.5 dB to 3 dB, depending on a number of factors. Table 1 (see the referenced link above or below) ...SNIP... That someone can, with certain individuals and certain conditions detect less than 3 dB, I would not dispute, any more than I would dispute a Beethoven or John Williams. This is taken into account in the same article you referenced above. ***EMPHASIS ADDED***: begin reference quote - For example, Reisz in his 1928 study used two tones, close in frequency that beat slowly. The beating caused amplitude fluctuations and the minimum audible fluctuation was ~ 1dB. Toole and Olive, on the other hand, in their 1988 study used pink noise for their acoustic signal source and determined that a 5 kHz resonance, with Q = 1 was just detectible at .25 dB. They found pink noise to be the most revealing signal. ***THEY DID EMPLOY OTHER TYPES OF ACOUSTIC SIGNALS IN THEIR STUDY*** and discovered that ***WHEN USING THE LEAST REVEALING*** of these that ***JUST DETECTIBLE THRESHOLD INCREASED BY A FACTOR OF 5***. From the third column of Table 1, we see the ***MINIMUM** detectable value, for the most part, hovers around 1 dB, +/- a fraction of a dB, and and that attainable ***ONLY*** with ideal (or at least as ideal as technology allowed for at the time the study was done) ***[IDEAL] LABORATORY TEST CONDITIONS AND [IDEAL] TEST SUBJECTS.*** I tend to use .75 dB to 1 dB when considering minimums. end reference quote When using the least revealing of these acoustic signals Reisz detectible threshold increased by a factor of 5. 5 dB or 5 times the voltage? Either way that's a huge handicap for not having ideal conditions. Show me something less ideal than QRN based noise varying 20 db on 80 or 160, a pile up half composed of hams that used ctrl-arrow/F4 and a spot to drop on exactly the same frequency as the DX. And then remember it's THEIR ears we're talking about, not ours. We are not talking about ideal laboratory test conditions, or ideal most talented test subjects or about the best possible result. Reisz' work was available to Bell Labs when the 3 dB maintenance standard was decided upon. The lab the phone company was going to have to spend money on (lots of it) was the real world. The Bell System decided that if it got to be 3 dB they would hire employees, buy test equipment, pay salaries and lay away for retirements to fix it. If it's 3 dB or leads to three dB it has to be fixed. In my experience in the phone company, they WOULD fix the 0.2 in a bad (wrapped but not soldered) connection, the 0.4 in a coil gone bad, the 0.9 in a soft tube, but they would find it looking for 3 dB or maintaining components to a 3 dB overall performance. Overall connections less than 3 dB off were in the ain't broke don't fix it, let maintenance snug it up whenever it happens category. Maintenance was the least expensive way to stay inside 3 dB. And they had gain controls to suck up a fair amount of routine variation. This is no different than picking appropriate feedlines for antennas, soldering coax shields in PL259 connectors (be surprised how many don't), etc, etc. We COULD see 0.1 dB in our ATT themocouples and line meters but we wouldn't patch a circuit out of service and ticket it for 1 dB. Wasn't that where we started this discussion, at what dB do we spend money on it? At the time, with Reisz' work in hand, the phone company that the rest of the world envied, that had the labs that gave us the transistor, picked 3 dB. And still, no one talks about the 27 dB between the ears. What was it they called a lid with an amp? A loud lid? How smart is it to ctrl-arrow/F4 and call DX on exactly the same frequency as ten other stations that did the same thing. What's that worth? Minus ten dB? Minus twenty? I've heard a QRO east coast multi, with 4 over 4 on forty at 100' and 200' braying zero beat to the F4 mob and getting beat six or seven times, including by one guy I know was running a wire antenna. There is some ancient wisdom still around that hasn't lost its lustre. YMMV and everyone entitled to spend their money however they want, but I'm saying it takes a smart op (one of those ideals that Reisz was talking about) to make 1.5 dB pay for itself 73 all, and may you always work the DX. Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
In technical school after being a HAM for over 9 years I learned that it took 10Db change in level to perceive a doubling of audible signal level,,, 3 db hard to detect. I worked on modems during the Vietnam at a site for 1 year after tech school and all our old equipment was lab quality. I did this all day long for 6 days a week for a year. I know and heard what I write. Bill K9YEQ K2-#35 (2 more), KX1-#35, K3, TS2000, IC7000, etc. From: r...@cobi.biz To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:16:54 -0800 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m Quite right Bill, in an audio laboratory or perhaps in a very quiet telephone circuit. But radio communications is different according to what I learned in school, lo' these many years past. Over half a century ago most radio communications engineers began using 3 dB (2:1 power ratio) as the minimum change in a signal level that would normally be just discernable to the listener, considering typical band noise and QSB. That was based in actual on-the-air observations by a great many operators over time. When considering changing my power level, I never consider it worthwhile to change less than 3 dB and more typically 6 to 10 dB as the minimum worth bothering with (e.g. shifting from a K2/10 at 10-15 watts CW to a K2/100 was a just worthwhile shift). When I was much younger and more innocent I used to scramble for each little watt, exulting in running 30 watts instead of 20 watts from a 6L6, for example, or tweaking my 6146 rig to run 90 instead of 75 watts and feeling sure that made a big difference. It sure seemed to produce more results from calls. But, looking back over logs over time, it was clearly an illusion.. That's when I acquired the sign that still hangs over my desk to remind me that Believing is Seeing. So I don't argue with people who want to make what is a quantifiable silly choice. Instead I say, If you want to do it and you believe it's worth it, do it. I'm no different. After all, we humans make most of our choices based on emotion and then we use rational logic to justify the choice. Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories research (with huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars on the line) determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change discernment for most people? I'm not sure who said 3 dB was the minimum detectable by a listener but I believe it's incorrect. 1 dB roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. (see below) The decibel originates from methods used to quantify reductions in audio levels in telephone circuits. These losses were originally measured in units of Miles of Standard Cable (MSC), where 1 MSC corresponded to the loss of power over a 1 mile (approximately 1.6 km) length of standard telephone cable at a frequency of 5000 radians per second (795.8 Hz) and roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. Standard telephone cable was defined as a cable having uniformly distributed resistances of 88 ohms per loop mile and uniformly distributed shunt capacitance of .054 microfarad per mile (approximately 19 gauge). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel#History 73, Bill __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
In technical school after being a HAM for over 9 years I learned that it took 10Db change in level to perceive a doubling of audible signal level,,, 3 db hard to detect. I worked on modems during the Vietnam at a site for 1 year after tech school and all our old equipment was lab quality. I did this all day long for 6 days a week for a year. I know and heard what I write. Bill K9YEQ K2-#35 (2 more), KX1-#35, K3, TS2000, IC7000, etc. From: r...@cobi.biz To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:16:54 -0800 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m Quite right Bill, in an audio laboratory or perhaps in a very quiet telephone circuit. But radio communications is different according to what I learned in school, lo' these many years past. Over half a century ago most radio communications engineers began using 3 dB (2:1 power ratio) as the minimum change in a signal level that would normally be just discernable to the listener, considering typical band noise and QSB. That was based in actual on-the-air observations by a great many operators over time. When considering changing my power level, I never consider it worthwhile to change less than 3 dB and more typically 6 to 10 dB as the minimum worth bothering with (e.g. shifting from a K2/10 at 10-15 watts CW to a K2/100 was a just worthwhile shift). When I was much younger and more innocent I used to scramble for each little watt, exulting in running 30 watts instead of 20 watts from a 6L6, for example, or tweaking my 6146 rig to run 90 instead of 75 watts and feeling sure that made a big difference. It sure seemed to produce more results from calls. But, looking back over logs over time, it was clearly an illusion.. That's when I acquired the sign that still hangs over my desk to remind me that Believing is Seeing. So I don't argue with people who want to make what is a quantifiable silly choice. Instead I say, If you want to do it and you believe it's worth it, do it. I'm no different. After all, we humans make most of our choices based on emotion and then we use rational logic to justify the choice. Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories research (with huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars on the line) determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change discernment for most people? I'm not sure who said 3 dB was the minimum detectable by a listener but I believe it's incorrect. 1 dB roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. (see below) The decibel originates from methods used to quantify reductions in audio levels in telephone circuits. These losses were originally measured in units of Miles of Standard Cable (MSC), where 1 MSC corresponded to the loss of power over a 1 mile (approximately 1.6 km) length of standard telephone cable at a frequency of 5000 radians per second (795.8 Hz) and roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. Standard telephone cable was defined as a cable having uniformly distributed resistances of 88 ohms per loop mile and uniformly distributed shunt capacitance of .054 microfarad per mile (approximately 19 gauge). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel#History 73, Bill __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Bill, I do not dispute anything you say, but, I would like to offer the following: Recently I was having a QSO with a mobile station using a mono-band antenna on a motor home, he was able to switch between a Kenwood TS-480SAT (100w) and a TS-480HX (200w) radios. Both radios used the same antenna and repeated switches between them revealed the following: TS-480SAT @100w gave me S-3 on my K3 with no pre-amp TS-480HX @200w gave me S-4+ with no pre-amp Audio wise (ssb) I was able to hear the 480SAT but copy was not 100 percent. The 480HX was easier to copy and was 100 percent readable. I know this is less than Lab quality material, but it demonstrated to me that 200w is likely to be better a significant number of times more than using 100w The frequency we were on was 7.103 LSB where us motorhomers hang out in VK Land. I would opt for a 200w PA in a heartbeat and judging by the sales of the 480's in VK there is definitely a market for a 200w PA. 73's Gary VK4FD Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra -Original Message- From: Bill Johnson k9...@live.com Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:07:24 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m In technical school after being a HAM for over 9 years I learned that it took 10Db change in level to perceive a doubling of audible signal level,,, 3 db hard to detect. I worked on modems during the Vietnam at a site for 1 year after tech school and all our old equipment was lab quality. I did this all day long for 6 days a week for a year. I know and heard what I write. Bill K9YEQ K2-#35 (2 more), KX1-#35, K3, TS2000, IC7000, etc. From: r...@cobi.biz To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:16:54 -0800 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m Quite right Bill, in an audio laboratory or perhaps in a very quiet telephone circuit. But radio communications is different according to what I learned in school, lo' these many years past. Over half a century ago most radio communications engineers began using 3 dB (2:1 power ratio) as the minimum change in a signal level that would normally be just discernable to the listener, considering typical band noise and QSB. That was based in actual on-the-air observations by a great many operators over time. When considering changing my power level, I never consider it worthwhile to change less than 3 dB and more typically 6 to 10 dB as the minimum worth bothering with (e.g. shifting from a K2/10 at 10-15 watts CW to a K2/100 was a just worthwhile shift). When I was much younger and more innocent I used to scramble for each little watt, exulting in running 30 watts instead of 20 watts from a 6L6, for example, or tweaking my 6146 rig to run 90 instead of 75 watts and feeling sure that made a big difference. It sure seemed to produce more results from calls. But, looking back over logs over time, it was clearly an illusion.. That's when I acquired the sign that still hangs over my desk to remind me that Believing is Seeing. So I don't argue with people who want to make what is a quantifiable silly choice. Instead I say, If you want to do it and you believe it's worth it, do it. I'm no different. After all, we humans make most of our choices based on emotion and then we use rational logic to justify the choice. Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories research (with huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars on the line) determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change discernment for most people? I'm not sure who said 3 dB was the minimum detectable by a listener but I believe it's incorrect. 1 dB roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. (see below) The decibel originates from methods used to quantify reductions in audio levels in telephone circuits. These losses were originally measured in units of Miles of Standard Cable (MSC), where 1 MSC corresponded to the loss of power over a 1 mile (approximately 1.6 km) length of standard telephone cable at a frequency of 5000 radians per second (795.8 Hz) and roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. Standard telephone cable was defined as a cable having uniformly distributed resistances of 88 ohms per loop mile and uniformly distributed shunt capacitance of .054 microfarad per mile (approximately 19 gauge). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel#History 73, Bill __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
In 1963's telephone school for newly employed wet-behind-the-ears ATT testboardmen, we were taught 3 db as the discernible change, and the reason why circuits that toned out more than a half db off had to be patched out of service and adjusted spot on. The only way to get from anywhere to anywhere with a long distance circuit was to switch shorter circuits together end to end, six times a half db was 3 db. You could plainly hear DC - Chicago - LA combos getting long and we'd make lists to pull out on midnight tours. Spent three years doing that. Until we got transistorized line bays later on that were more stable than the vaccum tube design, it was work a lot of overtime. Their maintenance schedule, the tens of thousands of of testboardmen they hired was based on the Bell Laboratories research on the matter. For that reason I may have an attachment to it, as ultimately it paid for my first house and car and put my kids through college, and is now paying retirement. If they'd said 2 dB maybe I never get hired. If one wants to dig up the research, it's found in the Bell System Technical Journal (BSTJ). This would be the stuff that everyone else refers to: 'C. F. Sacia and G. W. Beck, The Power of Fundamental Speech Sounds, Bell Syst. Tech. J., vol. 5, pp. 395-403 (1926)' 'Harvey Fletcher and W.A. Munson, Loudness, Its Definition, Measurement, and Calculation, Bell Syst Tech J., vol 12, issue 4 pp 377 ff.(October 1933)' Abstract: [Empirical formula for calculating loudness of any steady sound from analysis of intensity and frequency of its components developed; based on fundamental properties of hearing mechanism in such way that scale of loudness values results; in order to determine form of function representing this loudness scale, measurements were made of loudness levels] 73, Guy. On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Bill Johnson k9...@live.com wrote: In technical school after being a HAM for over 9 years I learned that it took 10Db change in level to perceive a doubling of audible signal level,,, 3 db hard to detect. I worked on modems during the Vietnam at a site for 1 year after tech school and all our old equipment was lab quality. I did this all day long for 6 days a week for a year. I know and heard what I write. Bill K9YEQ K2-#35 (2 more), KX1-#35, K3, TS2000, IC7000, etc. From: r...@cobi.biz To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:16:54 -0800 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m Quite right Bill, in an audio laboratory or perhaps in a very quiet telephone circuit. But radio communications is different according to what I learned in school, lo' these many years past. Over half a century ago most radio communications engineers began using 3 dB (2:1 power ratio) as the minimum change in a signal level that would normally be just discernable to the listener, considering typical band noise and QSB. That was based in actual on-the-air observations by a great many operators over time. When considering changing my power level, I never consider it worthwhile to change less than 3 dB and more typically 6 to 10 dB as the minimum worth bothering with (e.g. shifting from a K2/10 at 10-15 watts CW to a K2/100 was a just worthwhile shift). When I was much younger and more innocent I used to scramble for each little watt, exulting in running 30 watts instead of 20 watts from a 6L6, for example, or tweaking my 6146 rig to run 90 instead of 75 watts and feeling sure that made a big difference. It sure seemed to produce more results from calls. But, looking back over logs over time, it was clearly an illusion.. That's when I acquired the sign that still hangs over my desk to remind me that Believing is Seeing. So I don't argue with people who want to make what is a quantifiable silly choice. Instead I say, If you want to do it and you believe it's worth it, do it. I'm no different. After all, we humans make most of our choices based on emotion and then we use rational logic to justify the choice. Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories research (with huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars on the line) determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change discernment for most people? I'm not sure who said 3 dB was the minimum detectable by a listener but I believe it's incorrect. 1 dB roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. (see below) The decibel originates from methods used to quantify reductions in audio levels in telephone circuits. These losses were originally measured in units of Miles of Standard Cable (MSC), where 1 MSC corresponded to the loss of power over a 1 mile (approximately 1.6 km) length of standard telephone cable at a frequency of 5000 radians per second (795.8 Hz) and roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. Standard telephone cable
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Well I ain't neverGrin Me too, me too, me too Gary Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra -Original Message- From: Dan d...@wildblue.net Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 13:20:53 To: Bob Maserbmas...@q.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m I found it interesting. Dan- W4TQ ... Is it really necessary to continue this thread? My inbox is seeing entirely too much drivel like this thread and others on this reflector. Bob W6TR - Original Message - From: Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com To: 'Ignacy' n...@arrl.net; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m 2SC2782 is rated at 80W min each at 175 MHz so getting 150W from two on 1.8 MHz should be peanuts; the main reason why they are restricted to 110W in K3 is linearity (across bands) + component ratings. At higher power, the efficiency can be higher and thus K3 may actually run cooler! __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Gary... not competition, new multiplier and all time new DXCC ;o) Looks like, at least, two inexpensive options to try... 73, Julius Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3/100 #1875 --- On Fri, 12/11/09, rfenab...@gmail.com rfenab...@gmail.com wrote: From: rfenab...@gmail.com rfenab...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m To: Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.com Cc: Elecraft Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 7:29 PM Me too, me too, me too... More competition... Dang..(:-)) Gary VK4FD Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra -Original Message- From: Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:14:05 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m Dang! Competition ;o) Craig D. Smith wrote: I want one too ... Craig AC0DS Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3 #1875 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4152136.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
I found it interesting. Dan- W4TQ ... Is it really necessary to continue this thread? My inbox is seeing entirely too much drivel like this thread and others on this reflector. Bob W6TR - Original Message - From: Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com To: 'Ignacy' n...@arrl.net; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m 2SC2782 is rated at 80W min each at 175 MHz so getting 150W from two on 1.8 MHz should be peanuts; the main reason why they are restricted to 110W in K3 is linearity (across bands) + component ratings. At higher power, the efficiency can be higher and thus K3 may actually run cooler! __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? A kit or HB would be fine... 73, Julius n2wn - Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3#1875 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4151943.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Julius, Do you want to amplify 10 watts to 150 watts, or 100 watts to 150 watts? The former is nearly 12dB- about 2 S-units - while the latter is less than 2dB - about 1/3 of an S-unit, a difference which would be very difficult to discern on the air. -- 73 -- Brian -- K1LI On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.comwrote: Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? A kit or HB would be fine... 73, Julius n2wn - Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3#1875 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4151943.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Hi Brian 100 to 150... Sometimes that's all you need to go from n2? to n2wn ;o) It may not be realistic, but might be fun to play with if not too expensive. All the 160 contests allow LP to 150 watts... 73, Julius Brian Machesney wrote: Julius, Do you want to amplify 10 watts to 150 watts, or 100 watts to 150 watts? The former is nearly 12dB- about 2 S-units - while the latter is less than 2dB - about 1/3 of an S-unit, a difference which would be very difficult to discern on the air. -- 73 -- Brian -- K1LI On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.comwrote: Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? A kit or HB would be fine... 73, Julius n2wn - Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3#1875 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4151943.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3#1875 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4152054.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
I want one too ... Craig AC0DS Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Dang! Competition ;o) Craig D. Smith wrote: I want one too ... Craig AC0DS Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3#1875 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4152136.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? Why can't you just hook up 120 volts AC as your power source instead of that puny little 12 volts DC thing. Not only would you get 10 times the voltage which according to Ohm's Law gives you 100 times the power (thus, legal limit plus) but you also are using 60 Hz AC. Thus, you already have a kick start on that RF frequency. Why start out at DC when you can do so much better with AC. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
In all seriousness I don't think I would juice the K3 to get 150 watts out. Some did that with the K2 but I am a little reluctant to do that with a $2K+ rig. Of course your mileage may varybut find a cheap amp. Like an AL80A. You can get them for around 700 dollars on Ebay. I did that ran the amp at 150 watts in the NAQP contests But, then they changed the rule to 100 watts. Or find an old HW101...jack the voltage up on the plates and screensdrive it hard and you might make the 6146s produce 150 watts for a contest. There is a gentleman somewhere on the net that has done that. Of course...your definition of cheap may be different that mine. Lee K0WA In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is Common Sense divine? Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my mind. - J. Wolf --- On Fri, 12/11/09, Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.com Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 9:44 AM Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? A kit or HB would be fine... 73, Julius n2wn - Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3 #1875 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4151943.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
I am reminded of the recent sale item from Elecraft. The 2010 ARRL Handbook is to have a 250 Watt HF amp design in it. One ought to be able to drop the K3 output appropriately to drive it to 150 Watts. 73, Dick - KA5KKT __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories research (with huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars on the line) determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change discernment for most people? It's amazing how these slim changes hold on with hams and spend their money, when tons of research demonstrates the difference is not perceived. We FEEL GOOD running 150 instead of 100, running 1500 instead of 1200. Never hear it on the other end. The REAL TX dB is between our ears, when to transmit, where to transmit and what to transmit. They who have the full 27 db allocation there can work the pileups QRP. 73, Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Communications Concepts can help. www.communication-concepts.com/ Frank - W4NHJ Julius Fazekas n2wn wrote: Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? A kit or HB would be fine... 73, Julius n2wn -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4153253.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories research (with huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars on the line) determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change discernment for most people? It's amazing how these slim changes hold on with hams and spend their money, when tons of research demonstrates the difference is not perceived. We FEEL GOOD running 150 instead of 100, running 1500 instead of 1200. Never hear it on the other end. We hear this over and over, but it is very misleading. It's true that if you have a good readable signal, a difference of a db or two is not noticeable. But when the signal is right at the noise level or QSBing in and out of it, even one db makes a difference. As N2WN said, it can be the difference between ? and N2? -- or even between the guy CQing again and ?. -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
A good article on the value of a DB is an old timer in QST I think it was, Station design for DX I guarantee you that if you improve your station by 1Db or more you will tell the difference, have done it and it works. A whole new layer of DX opens up for every DB you can find. I see comments all the time that lossy feedlines or matching or this and that only costs a couple DB and you cant hear that. Amen I dont hear you in the pile ups. There is an audiophile site somewhere on the web that lets you adjust volume in DB steps, you may be quite surprised at what your ear can detect in DB changes. If a Db or two makes no difference than buying a K3 that has better specs by a DB or so should also make no difference. I encourage others to not worry about loss of a few DB, makes for more DX for those who do. Merv KH7C Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories research (with huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars on the line) determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change discernment for most people? It's amazing how these slim changes hold on with hams and spend their money, when tons of research demonstrates the difference is not perceived. We FEEL GOOD running 150 instead of 100, running 1500 instead of 1200. Never hear it on the other end. We hear this over and over, but it is very misleading. It's true that if you have a good readable signal, a difference of a db or two is not noticeable. But when the signal is right at the noise level or QSBing in and out of it, even one db makes a difference. As N2WN said, it can be the difference between ? and N2? -- or even between the guy CQing again and ?. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m - the competitive edge
This may be true and probably is...but as one other fellow said1 DB is the difference between hear or not. Now...in contesting...that is pointsor even a multipler which could be many more points per contest. So, I appreciate the comment here...is is the competitive edge that is driving this thread. Lee K0WA --- On Fri, 12/11/09, Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.net wrote: From: Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m To: elecraft Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 1:11 PM From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories research (with huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars on the line) determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change discernment for most people? It's amazing how these slim changes hold on with hams and spend their money, when tons of research demonstrates the difference is not perceived. We FEEL GOOD running 150 instead of 100, running 1500 instead of 1200. Never hear it on the other end. The REAL TX dB is between our ears, when to transmit, where to transmit and what to transmit. They who have the full 27 db allocation there can work the pileups QRP. 73, Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
On 160, you could try a class-E amplifier; you're probably not going to use anything but CW. --- On Fri, 12/11/09, Edward Dickinson, III softb...@windstream.net wrote: From: Edward Dickinson, III softb...@windstream.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 9:55 AM I am reminded of the recent sale item from Elecraft. The 2010 ARRL Handbook is to have a 250 Watt HF amp design in it. One ought to be able to drop the K3 output appropriately to drive it to 150 Watts. 73, Dick - KA5KKT __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m - Tubes
Tubes! We don't need no stinkin' Tubes! I always thougt the Elecraft Reflector was almost like a homebrew reflector. I for one, am getting back into tube technology ... refurbishing older equipment. It is is quite fun and delightful. Also, I can slop solder and smell smoke. The Drake 2B is sweet So, with that said...how about 4 X 807s Let see...100ma each ... that would be 400 ma at 600 volts...240 watts input65% efficient156 watts. Close enoough. Lee - K0WA :) Hi Lee, Yes, kinda reluctant to juice the radio, no need to fry the PA. I was thinking well under $700 hihi. Thought I had seen some 200W kits offered a while back but couldn't find them again. They may not go as low as 160 either. Trying to stay away from tubes since I got rid of most of my related junk. We'll see, if nothing sounds viable without a headache, I'll stick with what I have... Happy Holidays and see ya on the bands! 73, Julius Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3/100 #1875 --- On Fri, 12/11/09, Lee Buller k...@swbell.net wrote: From: Lee Buller k...@swbell.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m To: Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.com Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 12:52 PM In all seriousness I don't think I would juice the K3 to get 150 watts out. Some did that with the K2 but I am a little reluctant to do that with a $2K+ rig. Of course your mileage may varybut find a cheap amp. Like an AL80A. You can get them for around 700 dollars on Ebay. I did that ran the amp at 150 watts in the NAQP contests But, then they changed the rule to 100 watts. Or find an old HW101...jack the voltage up on the plates and screensdrive it hard and you might make the 6146s produce 150 watts for a contest. There is a gentleman somewhere on the net that has done that. Of course...your definition of cheap may be different that mine. Lee K0WA In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is Common Sense divine? Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my mind. - J. Wolf --- On Fri, 12/11/09, Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.com Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 9:44 AM Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? A kit or HB would be fine... 73, Julius n2wn - Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3 #1875 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4151943.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Thanks Frank! 73 Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3/100 #1875 --- On Fri, 12/11/09, w4nhj [via Elecraft] ml-node+4153253-1352068...@n2.nabble.com wrote: From: w4nhj [via Elecraft] ml-node+4153253-1352068...@n2.nabble.com Subject: Re: 150 watt boots for 160m To: Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.com Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 2:30 PM Communications Concepts can help. www.communication-concepts.com/ Frank - W4NHJ Julius Fazekas n2wn wrote: Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? A kit or HB would be fine... 73, Julius n2wn View message @ http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4153253.html To unsubscribe from 150 watt boots for 160m, click here. - Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3#1875 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4153559.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
I'd prefer to see the long delayed Elecraft 500 to 1000 watt amplifiers that have been delayed, apparently because of the intense development of the K3 which hopefully is nearing an end. An amplifier with QSK, an internal tuner comparable to the K3 tuner, and integrated with the K3 with Elecraft's quality and attention to detail would cause money to leap straight from my bank account's to Elecraft's bank account. 73, Dunc, W5DC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Vic K2VCO wrote: Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories research (with huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars on the line) determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change discernment for most people? It's amazing how these slim changes hold on with hams and spend their money, when tons of research demonstrates the difference is not perceived. We FEEL GOOD running 150 instead of 100, running 1500 instead of 1200. Never hear it on the other end. We hear this over and over, but it is very misleading. It's true that if you have a good readable signal, a difference of a db or two is not noticeable. But when the signal is right at the noise level or QSBing in and out of it, even one db makes a difference. As N2WN said, it can be the difference between ? and N2? -- or even between the guy CQing again and ?. I agree with Vic. You'll never notice the difference when a signal is -73 dBm or -72 dBm, ~55 dB above the noise floor, but at or below the noise floor, you'll definitely notice it. Case in point from the real world today was JT1CO on 160 this morning. There were many more folks listening than actually hearing. I bet many of those who could not hear would have given anything for another dB or two of S/N (either from better receive antennas or transmit power at the other end). 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4153675.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
-Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Julius Fazekas n2wn Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 11:14 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? A kit or HB would be fine... 73, Julius n2wn The only reason known to ask for such power increase will be to excite a power amplifier using 3-500Z or similar to full legal output. A Henry 3KA with 100 watts drive under the best of circumstances will not deliver more 1200 watts. On the other hand, new amplifiers with ceramic tubes like 3CX1500A7 or Alpha 87 with 3CX800A7 will deliver 1500 watts with only 45-50 watts drive. The Expert 1KA Italian amplifier with solid state finals needs only 20 watts drive for 1000 watts out. In fact, you must be very careful not to overdrive those amplifiers 73 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Let me get this right. You are looking for reassurance that money you haven't spent will be well spent upping 100 to 150 watts. Perhaps there is some part of you that doesn't believe it, or you would have done it already? Maybe you should listen to the skeptic there. Well, if you do go spend it, your banker thanks you, your suppliers thank you, but your operating savvy will dictate your success far more than the extra watts. I can make a much better case for the economy needs it than the far end. The Bell research DID involve accumulated noise and distortion on multiple circuits switched in series to make longer circuits, and how much then-manual maintenance could be needed based on customer's perceptions of circuits. Multi-megabucks of expense per year riding on it when gas was a nickel a gallon. So before you folks go dismissing it The trick at a given ham station is the accumulation of a little here and a little there, and yet. Eliminating loss at a half dozen places, and size of feedline, gain of antenna, etc can ad up to dB's noone argues about. 73, Guy. On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks Frank! 73 Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3/100 #1875 --- On Fri, 12/11/09, w4nhj [via Elecraft] ml-node+4153253-1352068...@n2.nabble.com wrote: From: w4nhj [via Elecraft] ml-node+4153253-1352068...@n2.nabble.com Subject: Re: 150 watt boots for 160m To: Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.com Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 2:30 PM Communications Concepts can help. www.communication-concepts.com/ Frank - W4NHJ Julius Fazekas n2wn wrote: Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? A kit or HB would be fine... 73, Julius n2wn View message @ http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4153253.html To unsubscribe from 150 watt boots for 160m, click here. - Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3 #1875 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4153559.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Those who believe in authority and that God punishes tinkerers, PLEASE SKIP this message. 2SC2782 is rated at 80W min each at 175 MHz so getting 150W from two on 1.8 MHz should be peanuts; the main reason why they are restricted to 110W in K3 is linearity (across bands) + component ratings. At higher power, the efficiency can be higher and thus K3 may actually run cooler! So how to get 150W out of K3? 1. ALC would not let it. It needs to be fooled, e.g., by changing a divider in the SWR unit to indicate 100W when it is 150W. 2. At 150W the output impedance would not be 50 Ohm; it would be 35-40 Ohm with extra impedance added by LPF, which are designed for 50 Ohm. You need a manual tuner that you will tune for max power, not min SWR. If higher SWR causes power fold up, the SWR circuit needs to fooled again. 3. The radio would take more amps, say 30A, and the fuse may go out. If so, change the fuse or reduce the power so that the fuse is not tripping. Is it worth it, I am not sure. In contests, the extra power may make a real difference. Would Wayne and Eric approve? Never officially! Would K3 be ruined? I doubt it. Would I do it if I wanted to win a 160m contest in LP category and had no other alternatives? Perhaps on CW but never on SSB due to high IMD. Corresponding story Many years ago a power supply for IC-735 broke and the spare one was for 5A max. Tuned for min SWR the power was 5 W. Tuning for max power out generated 25W. Later, I tried the same trick with IC-7000. It was 5 W no matter what the tuning because of strong power folding under high SWR. Not sure what K3 would do. But there is a possibility that one can get 10-20W more just by tuning for max power out. Ignacy Julius Fazekas n2wn wrote: Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? A kit or HB would be fine... 73, Julius n2wn -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4153762.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Guy, Two db does indeed make a difference no matter what you or the Bell Labs results say, and that's why the search for an extra db or two continues for anyone interesting in contesting or DXing in noisy conditions. A couple of years ago I generated some audio files to demonstrate exactly that. I recorded some scratchy band noise from 80m and mixed it with computer-generated CW of varying levels. Down at the noise level, even one db was perceptible and two db made a functional improvement. In a CW contest or in a pileup that could make a significant difference, although I'll admit that two db may not make enough difference for SSB (I also never tried it). I promised Pete I would clean up the audio files and send them to him for inclusion in the Contest Wikipedia ... I'm very delinquent on that but will try to do so within the next two or three weeks. Whether ANY increase in signal strength is worth the money required to achieve it is purely a function of the station owner and his objectives. For some folks, spending an extra $1K to $6K to get 12 db from an amplifier is not worth it. Others have obviously spent ten times that amount on towers and antennas to pick up just a few db. 73, Dave AB7E Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Let me get this right. You are looking for reassurance that money you haven't spent will be well spent upping 100 to 150 watts. Perhaps there is some part of you that doesn't believe it, or you would have done it already? Maybe you should listen to the skeptic there. Well, if you do go spend it, your banker thanks you, your suppliers thank you, but your operating savvy will dictate your success far more than the extra watts. I can make a much better case for the economy needs it than the far end. The Bell research DID involve accumulated noise and distortion on multiple circuits switched in series to make longer circuits, and how much then-manual maintenance could be needed based on customer's perceptions of circuits. Multi-megabucks of expense per year riding on it when gas was a nickel a gallon. So before you folks go dismissing it The trick at a given ham station is the accumulation of a little here and a little there, and yet. Eliminating loss at a half dozen places, and size of feedline, gain of antenna, etc can ad up to dB's noone argues about. 73, Guy. On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks Frank! 73 Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html http://groups.google.com/group/tcg1?hl=en Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3/100 #1875 --- On Fri, 12/11/09, w4nhj [via Elecraft] ml-node+4153253-1352068...@n2.nabble.com wrote: From: w4nhj [via Elecraft] ml-node+4153253-1352068...@n2.nabble.com Subject: Re: 150 watt boots for 160m To: Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.com Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 2:30 PM Communications Concepts can help. www.communication-concepts.com/ Frank - W4NHJ Julius Fazekas n2wn wrote: Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? A kit or HB would be fine... 73, Julius n2wn View message @ http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4153253.html To unsubscribe from 150 watt boots for 160m, click here. - Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3#1875 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4153559.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m - the competitive edge
Hi Lee Thats why FT2000's, Icom 7800s, 7700's and most of the 200 watt radios are selling so well to contesters and Dx'ers, even with a much poorer receiver than the K3. The importance of a 200 watt radio for many who run older style high drive amps is a deal breaker. Who is going to rebuild their old 4-1000 amps just for a new radio when you need more drive? I certainly would not. I would go out and buy a 200 watt radio. I know many DX'ers who are running FT1000D's who want to buy a K3 but wont because it does not have 200 watts of output. If 200 watts was not important I wonder why Yaesu keeps on producing radios with 200 watts of output power if they were not popular? When the new FT5000 is released its going to be one of the best selling radios because it may have a good receiver and it has 200 watts of output power. For this reason alone it will be a huge hit. I hear many many big gun stations now running 200 watts just casual dx,ing because the results are impressive enough not to need the AMP. 200 watts makes you loud enough to the point where you dont need the amp. 200 watts on CW is perfect even on the low bands when you want to work a few stations before going off to work. Very convenient! I run a old worn out Drake L4b which puts out 800 watts. Many many times i have just turned down the drive to produce 200 watts and I have not had one station comment that my signal has dropped. It looks like every new radio now will have 200 watts of output, and why not? High voltage FETs are cheap readily available, there is no excuse anymore for having 12 volt PA transistors in any high performance radio. John --- On Fri, 12/11/09, Lee Buller k...@swbell.net wrote: From: Lee Buller k...@swbell.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m - the competitive edge To: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 12:04 PM This may be true and probably is...but as one other fellow said1 DB is the difference between hear or not. Now...in contesting...that is pointsor even a multipler which could be many more points per contest. So, I appreciate the comment here...is is the competitive edge that is driving this thread. Lee K0WA --- On Fri, 12/11/09, Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.net wrote: From: Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m To: elecraft Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 1:11 PM From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories research (with huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars on the line) determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change discernment for most people? It's amazing how these slim changes hold on with hams and spend their money, when tons of research demonstrates the difference is not perceived. We FEEL GOOD running 150 instead of 100, running 1500 instead of 1200. Never hear it on the other end. The REAL TX dB is between our ears, when to transmit, where to transmit and what to transmit. They who have the full 27 db allocation there can work the pileups QRP. 73, Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories research (with huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars on the line) determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change discernment for most people? I'm not sure who said 3 dB was the minimum detectable by a listener but I believe it's incorrect. 1 dB roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. (see below) The decibel originates from methods used to quantify reductions in audio levels in telephone circuits. These losses were originally measured in units of Miles of Standard Cable (MSC), where 1 MSC corresponded to the loss of power over a 1 mile (approximately 1.6 km) length of standard telephone cable at a frequency of 5000 radians per second (795.8 Hz) and roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. Standard telephone cable was defined as a cable having uniformly distributed resistances of 88 ohms per loop mile and uniformly distributed shunt capacitance of .054 microfarad per mile (approximately 19 gauge). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel#History 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4154008.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Since the K3 (like virtually all current rigs) has fixed-tuned output filters, the match to the finals (and so the efficiency) will degrade as you go beyond the output power (and so impedance) for which they were designed. That means more current demand, more heating and perhaps new final transistors at regular intervals, Hi! Linearity will suffer which causes hard keying - perhaps even clicks - on CW and higher IMD in any mode using SSB: voice, data, etc. Of course, you can redesign the output filters as needed, but the basic limitation of linearity at higher power from a low-voltage (13VDC) transistor is a tough one. Low voltage results in a very low and difficult-to-handle output impedance from the finals at higher output powers. It's the reason 13VDC rigs typically don't exceed at 100 watts. Higher power rigs normally use a higher voltage on the transistors - frequently 50 VDC - and so have a higher output impedance. Of course that adds the weight and complexity of an internal DC-DC converter to supply the higher voltage to the finals. Bottom line, I'd expect 150 watts is 'do-able' but at considerable expense and redesign effort to produce a clean signal, all for an improvement that *may* be just discernable on a very good S-meter in one QSO out of a thousand. Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
2SC2782 is rated at 80W min each at 175 MHz so getting 150W from two on 1.8 MHz should be peanuts; the main reason why they are restricted to 110W in K3 is linearity (across bands) + component ratings. At higher power, the efficiency can be higher and thus K3 may actually run cooler! Don't try it ... with 12W max available from the LPA, the pair of 2SC2782 are already working very near maximum gain at 100 W output when the other losses are considered. The 2SC2782 shows 6.4 dB gain 1t 12.5V ... (12W drive, 80W Out). Derating the gross output by 1 dB for circuit losses in the LPF and T/R switch and 1 dB for linearity purposes, the net output is right at the K3's 110 W maximum output. If you really must have 200/250 W output, build an external amplifier using two MRF-150 instead of the four used in Motorola Engineering Bulletin 103 by Helge Granberg. See: http://www.ab4oj.com/dl/eb104.pdf In addition to the added power output, operating with a 48V power supply provides improved IMD (-33 dB @ 150 W) and gain (20 dB). 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ignacy Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 4:06 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m Those who believe in authority and that God punishes tinkerers, PLEASE SKIP this message. 2SC2782 is rated at 80W min each at 175 MHz so getting 150W from two on 1.8 MHz should be peanuts; the main reason why they are restricted to 110W in K3 is linearity (across bands) + component ratings. At higher power, the efficiency can be higher and thus K3 may actually run cooler! So how to get 150W out of K3? 1. ALC would not let it. It needs to be fooled, e.g., by changing a divider in the SWR unit to indicate 100W when it is 150W. 2. At 150W the output impedance would not be 50 Ohm; it would be 35-40 Ohm with extra impedance added by LPF, which are designed for 50 Ohm. You need a manual tuner that you will tune for max power, not min SWR. If higher SWR causes power fold up, the SWR circuit needs to fooled again. 3. The radio would take more amps, say 30A, and the fuse may go out. If so, change the fuse or reduce the power so that the fuse is not tripping. Is it worth it, I am not sure. In contests, the extra power may make a real difference. Would Wayne and Eric approve? Never officially! Would K3 be ruined? I doubt it. Would I do it if I wanted to win a 160m contest in LP category and had no other alternatives? Perhaps on CW but never on SSB due to high IMD. Corresponding story Many years ago a power supply for IC-735 broke and the spare one was for 5A max. Tuned for min SWR the power was 5 W. Tuning for max power out generated 25W. Later, I tried the same trick with IC-7000. It was 5 W no matter what the tuning because of strong power folding under high SWR. Not sure what K3 would do. But there is a possibility that one can get 10-20W more just by tuning for max power out. Ignacy Julius Fazekas n2wn wrote: Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? A kit or HB would be fine... 73, Julius n2wn -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4153762.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Reinaldo Leandro wrote: The Expert 1KA Italian amplifier with solid state finals needs only 20 watts drive for 1000 watts out. In fact, you must be very careful not to overdrive those amplifiers I can't find any reference to this amp after searching. Can you provide a link? That'd provide 750W from a 15W K2 73, Ross N4RP -- FCC Section 97.313(a) At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications. Here is the link to the company: http://www.radio-ham.eu/Expert1K-FA.htm The amplifier is distributed in NA by Steppir: http://www.steppir.com/ It specify: - High power gain (16 dB) A review was published in the September QST. I have been using the amplifier for the last 12 months to my entire satisfaction, in fact displacing the two other amps with 3CX800A7 tubes. It occupies almost the same space as the K3 and switch two radios for a poor guy SO2R. I made a typo mistake stating 20 watts instead of 29 that is typically my case. On the K3 for tuning purposes I limit the output when pressing tune to 20 watts. 73 Reinaldo, YV5AMH __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Quite right Bill, in an audio laboratory or perhaps in a very quiet telephone circuit. But radio communications is different according to what I learned in school, lo' these many years past. Over half a century ago most radio communications engineers began using 3 dB (2:1 power ratio) as the minimum change in a signal level that would normally be just discernable to the listener, considering typical band noise and QSB. That was based in actual on-the-air observations by a great many operators over time. When considering changing my power level, I never consider it worthwhile to change less than 3 dB and more typically 6 to 10 dB as the minimum worth bothering with (e.g. shifting from a K2/10 at 10-15 watts CW to a K2/100 was a just worthwhile shift). When I was much younger and more innocent I used to scramble for each little watt, exulting in running 30 watts instead of 20 watts from a 6L6, for example, or tweaking my 6146 rig to run 90 instead of 75 watts and feeling sure that made a big difference. It sure seemed to produce more results from calls. But, looking back over logs over time, it was clearly an illusion.. That's when I acquired the sign that still hangs over my desk to remind me that Believing is Seeing. So I don't argue with people who want to make what is a quantifiable silly choice. Instead I say, If you want to do it and you believe it's worth it, do it. I'm no different. After all, we humans make most of our choices based on emotion and then we use rational logic to justify the choice. Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From 100 to 150, for 1.7 dB, when Bell Laboratories research (with huge capital investment and telephone maintenance dollars on the line) determined that 3 dB was the signal strength change discernment for most people? I'm not sure who said 3 dB was the minimum detectable by a listener but I believe it's incorrect. 1 dB roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. (see below) The decibel originates from methods used to quantify reductions in audio levels in telephone circuits. These losses were originally measured in units of Miles of Standard Cable (MSC), where 1 MSC corresponded to the loss of power over a 1 mile (approximately 1.6 km) length of standard telephone cable at a frequency of 5000 radians per second (795.8 Hz) and roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. Standard telephone cable was defined as a cable having uniformly distributed resistances of 88 ohms per loop mile and uniformly distributed shunt capacitance of .054 microfarad per mile (approximately 19 gauge). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel#History 73, Bill __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: Quite right Bill, in an audio laboratory or perhaps in a very quiet telephone circuit. But radio communications is different according to what I learned in school, lo' these many years past. Over half a century ago most radio communications engineers began using 3 dB (2:1 power ratio) as the minimum change in a signal level that would normally be just discernable to the listener, considering typical band noise and QSB. That was based in actual on-the-air observations by a great many operators over time. Ron I cited the reference for the 1 dB definition. Please provide the same for your 3 dB number. 160 meters is a very good audio laboratory IMHO. It quickly separates those who can hear from those who cannot. 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4154204.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
I can't find any reference to this amp after searching. Can you provide a link? That'd provide 750W from a 15W K2 http://www.radio-ham.eu/ 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Reinaldo Leandro Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 5:10 PM To: n...@aiko.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m Reinaldo Leandro wrote: The Expert 1KA Italian amplifier with solid state finals needs only 20 watts drive for 1000 watts out. In fact, you must be very careful not to overdrive those amplifiers I can't find any reference to this amp after searching. Can you provide a link? That'd provide 750W from a 15W K2 73, Ross N4RP -- FCC Section 97.313(a) At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications. Here is the link to the company: http://www.radio-ham.eu/Expert1K-FA.htm The amplifier is distributed in NA by Steppir: http://www.steppir.com/ It specify: - High power gain (16 dB) A review was published in the September QST. I have been using the amplifier for the last 12 months to my entire satisfaction, in fact displacing the two other amps with 3CX800A7 tubes. It occupies almost the same space as the K3 and switch two radios for a poor guy SO2R. I made a typo mistake stating 20 watts instead of 29 that is typically my case. On the K3 for tuning purposes I limit the output when pressing tune to 20 watts. 73 Reinaldo, YV5AMH __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Is it really necessary to continue this thread? My inbox is seeing entirely too much drivel like this thread and others on this reflector. Bob W6TR - Original Message - From: Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com To: 'Ignacy' n...@arrl.net; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m 2SC2782 is rated at 80W min each at 175 MHz so getting 150W from two on 1.8 MHz should be peanuts; the main reason why they are restricted to 110W in K3 is linearity (across bands) + component ratings. At higher power, the efficiency can be higher and thus K3 may actually run cooler! Don't try it ... with 12W max available from the LPA, the pair of 2SC2782 are already working very near maximum gain at 100 W output when the other losses are considered. The 2SC2782 shows 6.4 dB gain 1t 12.5V ... (12W drive, 80W Out). Derating the gross output by 1 dB for circuit losses in the LPF and T/R switch and 1 dB for linearity purposes, the net output is right at the K3's 110 W maximum output. If you really must have 200/250 W output, build an external amplifier using two MRF-150 instead of the four used in Motorola Engineering Bulletin 103 by Helge Granberg. See: http://www.ab4oj.com/dl/eb104.pdf In addition to the added power output, operating with a 48V power supply provides improved IMD (-33 dB @ 150 W) and gain (20 dB). 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ignacy Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 4:06 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m Those who believe in authority and that God punishes tinkerers, PLEASE SKIP this message. 2SC2782 is rated at 80W min each at 175 MHz so getting 150W from two on 1.8 MHz should be peanuts; the main reason why they are restricted to 110W in K3 is linearity (across bands) + component ratings. At higher power, the efficiency can be higher and thus K3 may actually run cooler! So how to get 150W out of K3? 1. ALC would not let it. It needs to be fooled, e.g., by changing a divider in the SWR unit to indicate 100W when it is 150W. 2. At 150W the output impedance would not be 50 Ohm; it would be 35-40 Ohm with extra impedance added by LPF, which are designed for 50 Ohm. You need a manual tuner that you will tune for max power, not min SWR. If higher SWR causes power fold up, the SWR circuit needs to fooled again. 3. The radio would take more amps, say 30A, and the fuse may go out. If so, change the fuse or reduce the power so that the fuse is not tripping. Is it worth it, I am not sure. In contests, the extra power may make a real difference. Would Wayne and Eric approve? Never officially! Would K3 be ruined? I doubt it. Would I do it if I wanted to win a 160m contest in LP category and had no other alternatives? Perhaps on CW but never on SSB due to high IMD. Corresponding story Many years ago a power supply for IC-735 broke and the spare one was for 5A max. Tuned for min SWR the power was 5 W. Tuning for max power out generated 25W. Later, I tried the same trick with IC-7000. It was 5 W no matter what the tuning because of strong power folding under high SWR. Not sure what K3 would do. But there is a possibility that one can get 10-20W more just by tuning for max power out. Ignacy Julius Fazekas n2wn wrote: Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? A kit or HB would be fine... 73, Julius n2wn -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4153762.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
At 09:53 AM 12/11/2009 -1000, you wrote: A good article on the value of a DB is an old timer in QST I think it was, Station design for DX I guarantee you that if you improve your station by 1Db or more you will tell the difference, have done it and it works. A whole new layer of DX opens up for every DB you can find. I see comments all the time that lossy feedlines or matching or this and that only costs a couple DB and you cant hear that. Amen I dont hear you in the pile ups. I bet the number of weak signal contacts have increased ... not because of increased power or improved receivers ... but because of the online service of QRZ.com hi hi I wonder how many DB they add. Many stations know my name and qth before I send it! Jim, VE3CI __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m [END of thread]
Let's end this thread. :-) 73, Eric Elecraft Moderator __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
At 03:55 PM 12/11/2009 -0700, you wrote: Is it really necessary to continue this thread? My inbox is seeing entirely too much drivel like this thread and others on this reflector. Bob W6TR Hi I think this is one of the more interesting threads it is certainly on a par with (with due respect) K3 Diversity use with QRN or ethernet to serial converter hi hi Besides I delete 90% of the postings and keep those of particular interest to me for future reference goes fast hi. I believe it goes to the heart of some basic Amateur Radio philosophies ... the philosophies of power, competition, and achievement. Certainly not drivel. Personally I am a rag chewer and radio experimenter... I guess I don't have that competitive gene hi hi I have an academic interest in getting the most out of the least ... so I enjoy the thread as far as technical suggestions on how to eek out additional power ... but no interest in breaking into the pileup that for me is an academic interest ...(I usually don't operate on week-ends as there might be a contest hi hi) although I do receive satisfaction in completing a weak signal contact. I notice that the boots were for 160m and I think I know why. Most operators use some sort of vertical antenna which by definition will have a high level of background noise. the problem with weak signal operation on 160m is this background noise. Even if the signal could be raised 3 db over the noise you will have such a headache you won't last too long hi hi. The answer is to use a separate receive antenna not to raise the received signal strength ... but to increase the ratio of signal to noise. Completing a QSO is a 2 way street. I believe the radio should have provision for a receive only antenna as well as noise reduction circuits. I believe I have improved my 160m weak signal operations more through improving my station receiving capabilities than increasing power. Certainly the efforts bring greater rewards. Just as a sidelight ... I always enjoyed 160m from way back when I used to call in to an early morning net ... shortly after milking time almost all the participants were farmers. Everyone operated AM back then hi hi ... and i used a Heathkit DX-100 AM transmitter and a military BC348 ? receiver. The equipment has changed but the fun remains. Jim, VE3CI __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Hi Brian, Was that in QEX? I seem to recall an article about this in the past couple of years. You are right all I wish to use it for is CW. I know at least a few of the responders understand what I am trying to do and why. LP categories in 160m contests allow power levels to 150 watts. Most of the time 150 watts would buy one nothing, but it is worth having just a touch more umph if the conditions are marginal on the other end. I can't squeeze anything more significant out of my Tx antenna, if I was lucky maybe 1/2 db... maybe. something under $300 in the way of a simple amp IS worth trying and may have been enough to have added 3 multipliers during ARRL160 because those guys couldn't quite pull me out. There's no downside to trying it. Thanks for all the thoughtful answers. Don't think I'll mess with the K3 PA and I don't want to move into the HP category :o) 73, Julius n2wn Brian Moran wrote: On 160, you could try a class-E amplifier; you're probably not going to use anything but CW. --- On Fri, 12/11/09, Edward Dickinson, III softb...@windstream.net wrote: From: Edward Dickinson, III softb...@windstream.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 9:55 AM I am reminded of the recent sale item from Elecraft. The 2010 ARRL Handbook is to have a 250 Watt HF amp design in it. One ought to be able to drop the K3 output appropriately to drive it to 150 Watts. 73, Dick - KA5KKT __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3#1875 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4154474.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Me too, me too, me too... More competition... Dang..(:-)) Gary VK4FD Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra -Original Message- From: Julius Fazekas n2wn phriend...@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:14:05 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m Dang! Competition ;o) Craig D. Smith wrote: I want one too ... Craig AC0DS Wondering if anyone has a suggestion of a solid state amp or pushing the K3 PA to obtain 150 watts out on 160m? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html Tennessee QSO Party http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 Elecraft K3#1875 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4152136.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
Duncan, Yep, I would be instantly poor...again...(:-)) Gary VK4FD --Original Message-- From: Duncan Carter Sender: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net To: Merv Schweigert Cc: Elecraft Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m Sent: Dec 12, 2009 6:34 AM I'd prefer to see the long delayed Elecraft 500 to 1000 watt amplifiers that have been delayed, apparently because of the intense development of the K3 which hopefully is nearing an end. An amplifier with QSK, an internal tuner comparable to the K3 tuner, and integrated with the K3 with Elecraft's quality and attention to detail would cause money to leap straight from my bank account's to Elecraft's bank account. 73, Dunc, W5DC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] 150 watt boots for 160m
On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 13:58:05 -0800 (PST), Bill W4ZV wrote: I'm not sure who said 3 dB was the minimum detectable by a listener but I believe it's incorrect. 1 dB roughly matched the smallest attenuation detectable to an average listener. Yes. I'm a member of the Acoustical Society and work in pro audio, so I've had to learn a LOT about these things. BUT -- that 1 dB that's the smallest change noticable by the average listener for sounds NOT in the presence of noise or other interfering signals. Add some noise that's close in level to the desired signal (or even stronger than the desired signal), and a 1 dB change becomes more obvious. For sounds with NO interfering noise, it takes a change of nearly 10 dB to be perceived as twice (or half) as loud. What really matters in communications circuits is signal to noise ratio. The poorer the signal to noise ratio, a dB or two becomes more important. John said: Many many times i have just turned down the drive to produce 200 watts and I have not had one station comment that my signal has dropped. That's because of a combination of two factors 1) Your signal was likely well above the noise 2) the change in LOUDNESS of your signal was eliminated by the AGC in the other guy's RX. I'm a member of a very competitive contest club. Our guys will do a lot to maximize their signals and their RX. I use RG11 to feed dipoles to save a dB of loss. I use hard line for the long run to my SteppIR to save 2 dB. I work to get antennas up a bit higher to get me over the ridge to the east, boosting my signal another dB or two. I have Beverages to hear a bit better. All of these little improvements combine to let me hear about 6dB better and transmit 2- 3dB louder. I recently put up a tower and beam, giving me about 6dB on the higher bands. Each of these changes has contributed a bit, and over tiem, my QSO rates have improved a lot. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
