Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[David Woolley]

Ethanol and Isopropyl Alcohol are almost as polar as water.  That's why 
they mix so well with water.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvent

According to its Wikipedia entry, ethanol doesn't even mix well with 
heavy oils.  Isopropanol is better.

--
David Woolley
Owner K2 06123

On 09/09/15 01:51, Fred Townsend wrote:


Water is not a problem. You want the water to pick up the water because
alcohol is a non-polar solvent meaning it does not pick up the ionic
contamination. The water picks up the ions and alcohol picks up the water.
Conclusion rubbing alcohol containing water works just fine although the




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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[Ian White]

>Don:
>Acetone should NEVER be used in electronic assembles. Acetone 
>causes both long and short term effects on various components 
>including the PCB. It effects epoxy, lacquers, paints, and plastics, 
>particularly polystyrenes
[...]
>73, Fred, AE6QL

Chemicals intended for use around electronic components, including PC
boards, have been formulated according to an industry-wide "Non
Aggression Agreement". This aims to ensure that chemicals such as flux
cleaners and contact cleaners will not damage the plastics that are used
in the majority of components. In return, component manufacturers try to
avoid using plastics that would be damaged by solvents in common use. 

Undiluted acetone is not part of that agreement because it's simply too
aggressive, as Fred describes. 

Although electronics-grade solvents are more expensive than bulk
commodity solvents like acetone, for peace of mind they are worth the
extra cost.


73 from Ian GM3SEK


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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[David Woolley]

PCBs (FR-4) are glass reinforced epoxy, not polyester (I think the old, 
brown ones (SRBP) are paper reinforced urea-formaldehyde).  Also the 
resin component is cross-linked, whereas the article is talking about 
thinning the uncured (un-crosslinked) resin. (Glass reinforced polyester 
is used in car body repairs because it is cheaper than epoxy.)


I'm not saying that acetone is a good thing to use on electronics, only 
that the rationale in relation to PCBs is flawed.


Incidentally, methanol, an alcohol, softens, but doesn't dissolve, cured 
epoxy.


--
David Woolley
Owner/builder K2 06123

On 08/09/15 00:02, Fred Townsend wrote:


From Wikipedia:

Acetone is a good solvent for many plastics and some synthetic fibers. It is
used for thinning polyester resin, cleaning tools used with it, and
dissolving two-part epoxies and superglue before they harden. It is used as
one of the volatile components of some paints and varnishes.

Polyester resin, also called gel coat, in case you don't know, is the stuff
PC boards are made of. Leave acetone in the paint department where it
belongs. I suggest alcohol, any kind as long as it pure, be used for
de-fluxing PC boards.


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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[ae4pb]

When you purchase alcohol to use as cleanup it's best to get the highest
concentration you can get, else, there is a risk of it leaving a residue and
the evaporation rate is much slower. Most drug stores sell 91% or higher if
you ask/look for it. 60% is more common. Higher % is better for cleaning and
evaporates more cleanly.
Jer


-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ian
White
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 4:09 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

>Don:
>Acetone should NEVER be used in electronic assembles. Acetone causes 
>both long and short term effects on various components including the 
>PCB. It effects epoxy, lacquers, paints, and plastics, particularly 
>polystyrenes
[...]
>73, Fred, AE6QL

Chemicals intended for use around electronic components, including PC
boards, have been formulated according to an industry-wide "Non Aggression
Agreement". This aims to ensure that chemicals such as flux cleaners and
contact cleaners will not damage the plastics that are used in the majority
of components. In return, component manufacturers try to avoid using
plastics that would be damaged by solvents in common use. 

Undiluted acetone is not part of that agreement because it's simply too
aggressive, as Fred describes. 

Although electronics-grade solvents are more expensive than bulk commodity
solvents like acetone, for peace of mind they are worth the extra cost.


73 from Ian GM3SEK


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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[Mike Morrow]

> Food grade EverClear is 100% alcohol...

Not quite.  Pure ethanol is a *practical* impossibility.

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everclear_(alcohol)

It comes in 75.5 percent (151 proof) and 95 percent ethanol (190 proof) 
varieties.  Sale of the 95 percent is banned in some states.

The 91 percent drug store denatured alcohol would be as good a choice for all 
practical purposes...except consumption.

Mike / KK5F
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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[David Christ]

One other thing to consider that can make a difference in some cases.  There 
are three types of alcohol commonly available.  Methanol often used as shellac 
thinner, ethanol, booze if you wish, which EverClear is, and isopropyl which is 
often found in rubbing alcohol sold in drugstores.  They vary in toxicity and 
can react differently with some materials.  You chemists out there can 
enlightens further.

David K0LUM


On Sep 8, 2015, at 8:38 AM, Marc Veeneman  wrote:

> Food grade EverClear is 100% alcohol but government classified in the U.S. as 
> a taxable beverage.  Buy it at a liquor store.
> -- 
> Marc  W8SDG
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 8, 2015, at 9:14 AM,  
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> When you purchase alcohol to use as cleanup it's best to get the highest
>> concentration you can get, else, there is a risk of it leaving a residue and
>> the evaporation rate is much slower. Most drug stores sell 91% or higher if
>> you ask/look for it. 60% is more common. Higher % is better for cleaning and
>> evaporates more cleanly.
>> Jer
>> 
> __

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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[Hisashi T Fujinaka]

You can get denatured alcohol from the hardware store, but I think that
can contain methanol which I wouldn't suggest using because of toxicity
and because it melts more things than ethanol. Methanol will go through
your skin so you need ventilation and the correct gloves.

Rubbing alcohol from the drugstore can contain some oils that you don't
want.

If you can get Everclear in your state and you can afford the tax on it,
I'd say buy that.

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015, Mike Morrow wrote:




Food grade EverClear is 100% alcohol...


Not quite.  Pure ethanol is a *practical* impossibility.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everclear_(alcohol)

It comes in 75.5 percent (151 proof) and 95 percent ethanol (190 proof) 
varieties.  Sale of the 95 percent is banned in some states.

The 91 percent drug store denatured alcohol would be as good a choice for all 
practical purposes...except consumption.

Mike / KK5F
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--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com
BSEE + BSChem + BAEnglish + MSCS + $2.50 = coffee
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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[Fred Townsend]

Gentlemen: 
Water is not a problem. You want the water to pick up the water because
alcohol is a non-polar solvent meaning it does not pick up the ionic
contamination. The water picks up the ions and alcohol picks up the water.
Conclusion rubbing alcohol containing water works just fine although the
50/50 cheap stuff now sold is not as good as the 70/30 or 91/09. Best way to
clean is to blot and or air squeegee the liquid off. Don't let it evaporate.
That leaves the sold residues behind. When finished cleaning if you still
have worries about water then bake out your board at 90 to 95 degrees C. 30
minutes is all that is needed.

73,
Fred, AE6QL

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
ae...@carolinaheli.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2015 6:15 AM
To: 'Ian White'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

When you purchase alcohol to use as cleanup it's best to get the highest
concentration you can get, else, there is a risk of it leaving a residue and
the evaporation rate is much slower. Most drug stores sell 91% or higher if
you ask/look for it. 60% is more common. Higher % is better for cleaning and
evaporates more cleanly.
Jer


-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ian
White
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 4:09 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

>Don:
>Acetone should NEVER be used in electronic assembles. Acetone causes 
>both long and short term effects on various components including the 
>PCB. It effects epoxy, lacquers, paints, and plastics, particularly 
>polystyrenes
[...]
>73, Fred, AE6QL

Chemicals intended for use around electronic components, including PC
boards, have been formulated according to an industry-wide "Non Aggression
Agreement". This aims to ensure that chemicals such as flux cleaners and
contact cleaners will not damage the plastics that are used in the majority
of components. In return, component manufacturers try to avoid using
plastics that would be damaged by solvents in common use. 

Undiluted acetone is not part of that agreement because it's simply too
aggressive, as Fred describes. 

Although electronics-grade solvents are more expensive than bulk commodity
solvents like acetone, for peace of mind they are worth the extra cost.


73 from Ian GM3SEK


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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[Marc Veeneman]

Food grade EverClear is 100% alcohol but government classified in the U.S. as a 
taxable beverage.  Buy it at a liquor store.
-- 
Marc  W8SDG




> On Sep 8, 2015, at 9:14 AM,   
> wrote:
> 
> When you purchase alcohol to use as cleanup it's best to get the highest
> concentration you can get, else, there is a risk of it leaving a residue and
> the evaporation rate is much slower. Most drug stores sell 91% or higher if
> you ask/look for it. 60% is more common. Higher % is better for cleaning and
> evaporates more cleanly.
> Jer
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[Fred Townsend]

Don:
Acetone should NEVER be used in electronic assembles. Acetone causes both
long and short term effects on various components including the PCB. It
effects epoxy, lacquers, paints, and plastics, particularly polystyrenes
where its effects are almost instantaneous.  Pour some in a polystyrene cup
and watch it immediately cloud up.

>From Wikipedia:
Acetone is a good solvent for many plastics and some synthetic fibers. It is
used for thinning polyester resin, cleaning tools used with it, and
dissolving two-part epoxies and superglue before they harden. It is used as
one of the volatile components of some paints and varnishes. 

Polyester resin, also called gel coat, in case you don't know, is the stuff
PC boards are made of. Leave acetone in the paint department where it
belongs. I suggest alcohol, any kind as long as it pure, be used for
de-fluxing PC boards.  

73, Fred, AE6QL
-Original Message- 
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Don
Wilhelm
Sent: Monday, September 7, 2015 2:43 PM
To: Nick Lelyak
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

Nick,

Yes, but it fails when it cools again - something is not making good
contact, and it may be residue from the cleaner.  I can't be certain of
that, but I would get that cleaner residue off and try again.

I would suggest that you remove the cleaner residue from the contacts with
acetone - apply it with a brush or cotton swab and immediately wipe the area
with a clean cloth of paper towel.  Do only a few pins at a time, and do not
let the acetone dry on the contacts or board.
You may want to mate and unmate the front panel and RF board several times,
cleaning between each to hopefully clean some of the 'goop' out of the
female header.

If you do not have gold pins on the connector to the front panel, consider
asking Elecraft for the gold replacement pins.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/7/2015 5:27 PM, Nick Lelyak wrote:
> Thanks Don, Guy
> appreciate yours quick response.
> I found out that problem disappears when front panel warms up to 37 C 
> and more.
> Looks like problem somewhere in FP. To clean main connector I used 
> Electronic Contact Cleaner. It may works not so good as Deoxit which 
> is not widely available in Canada. In any case to move on have to buy 
> Deoxit first.
> Thanks again
>
> 73, Nick VE3FJ
>

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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[Wes (N7WS)]

Disband the terrorist EPA (A terrific idea regardless) and we could go back to 
Freon vapor degreasers.


On 9/7/2015 5:05 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Fred,

Gary and I both have been using acetone for a long time.
If the board is flooded, the results can be catastrophic since residue flows 
under components and makes a mess.
But carefully applied with a swab or small brush to a small area and mopped up 
with a paper towel it will do the job very well. The contact time *must* be 
short, and that is why one must work in small areas.


Yes, alcohol can do a good job of cleaning flux too, but needs to have the 
same precautions - it can make just as much of a mess or more because alcohol 
attracts water vapor and causes it to condense on the surface being worked.  
Dip an opaque object in alcohol and remove it with a paper towel - note that 
the object will be wet with moisture.


Besides, the job for the particular problem stated was not flux removal, but 
removal of some unknown compound from connector pins. Alcohol is likely to be 
ineffective.


73,
Don W3FPR



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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[Don Wilhelm]

Fred,

Gary and I both have been using acetone for a long time.
If the board is flooded, the results can be catastrophic since residue 
flows under components and makes a mess.
But carefully applied with a swab or small brush to a small area and 
mopped up with a paper towel it will do the job very well.  The contact 
time *must* be short, and that is why one must work in small areas.


Yes, alcohol can do a good job of cleaning flux too, but needs to have 
the same precautions - it can make just as much of a mess or more 
because alcohol attracts water vapor and causes it to condense on the 
surface being worked.  Dip an opaque object in alcohol and remove it 
with a paper towel - note that the object will be wet with moisture.


Besides, the job for the particular problem stated was not flux removal, 
but removal of some unknown compound from connector pins. Alcohol is 
likely to be ineffective.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/7/2015 7:02 PM, Fred Townsend wrote:

Don:
Acetone should NEVER be used in electronic assembles. Acetone causes both
long and short term effects on various components including the PCB. It
effects epoxy, lacquers, paints, and plastics, particularly polystyrenes
where its effects are almost instantaneous.  Pour some in a polystyrene cup
and watch it immediately cloud up.

>From Wikipedia:
Acetone is a good solvent for many plastics and some synthetic fibers. It is
used for thinning polyester resin, cleaning tools used with it, and
dissolving two-part epoxies and superglue before they harden. It is used as
one of the volatile components of some paints and varnishes.

Polyester resin, also called gel coat, in case you don't know, is the stuff
PC boards are made of. Leave acetone in the paint department where it
belongs. I suggest alcohol, any kind as long as it pure, be used for
de-fluxing PC boards.

73, Fred, AE6QL
-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Don
Wilhelm
Sent: Monday, September 7, 2015 2:43 PM
To: Nick Lelyak
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

Nick,

Yes, but it fails when it cools again - something is not making good
contact, and it may be residue from the cleaner.  I can't be certain of
that, but I would get that cleaner residue off and try again.

I would suggest that you remove the cleaner residue from the contacts with
acetone - apply it with a brush or cotton swab and immediately wipe the area
with a clean cloth of paper towel.  Do only a few pins at a time, and do not
let the acetone dry on the contacts or board.
You may want to mate and unmate the front panel and RF board several times,
cleaning between each to hopefully clean some of the 'goop' out of the
female header.

If you do not have gold pins on the connector to the front panel, consider
asking Elecraft for the gold replacement pins.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/7/2015 5:27 PM, Nick Lelyak wrote:

Thanks Don, Guy
appreciate yours quick response.
I found out that problem disappears when front panel warms up to 37 C
and more.
Looks like problem somewhere in FP. To clean main connector I used
Electronic Contact Cleaner. It may works not so good as Deoxit which
is not widely available in Canada. In any case to move on have to buy
Deoxit first.
Thanks again

73, Nick VE3FJ


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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[Don Wilhelm]

Nick,

Yes, but it fails when it cools again - something is not making good 
contact, and it may be residue from the cleaner.  I can't be certain of 
that, but I would get that cleaner residue off and try again.


I would suggest that you remove the cleaner residue from the contacts 
with acetone - apply it with a brush or cotton swab and immediately wipe 
the area with a clean cloth of paper towel.  Do only a few pins at a 
time, and do not let the acetone dry on the contacts or board.
You may want to mate and unmate the front panel and RF board several 
times, cleaning between each to hopefully clean some of the 'goop' out 
of the female header.


If you do not have gold pins on the connector to the front panel, 
consider asking Elecraft for the gold replacement pins.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/7/2015 5:27 PM, Nick Lelyak wrote:

Thanks Don, Guy
appreciate yours quick response.
I found out that problem disappears when front panel warms up to 37 C
and more.
Looks like problem somewhere in FP. To clean main connector I used
Electronic Contact Cleaner. It may works not so good as Deoxit which
is not widely available in Canada. In any case to move on have to buy 
Deoxit first.

Thanks again

73, Nick VE3FJ



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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[Nick Lelyak]

yes Don,
problem comes on again after radio cools down.
Pins were properly cleaned from residue, but they
are not gold plated and I black spots on some of them had left after
cleaning with contact cleaner. So I decided buy recommended cleaner first

Thanks

Nick

On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 5:43 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> Nick,
>
> Yes, but it fails when it cools again - something is not making good
> contact, and it may be residue from the cleaner.  I can't be certain of
> that, but I would get that cleaner residue off and try again.
>
> I would suggest that you remove the cleaner residue from the contacts with
> acetone - apply it with a brush or cotton swab and immediately wipe the
> area with a clean cloth of paper towel.  Do only a few pins at a time, and
> do not let the acetone dry on the contacts or board.
> You may want to mate and unmate the front panel and RF board several
> times, cleaning between each to hopefully clean some of the 'goop' out of
> the female header.
>
> If you do not have gold pins on the connector to the front panel, consider
> asking Elecraft for the gold replacement pins.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 9/7/2015 5:27 PM, Nick Lelyak wrote:
>
> Thanks Don, Guy
> appreciate yours quick response.
> I found out that problem disappears when front panel warms up to 37 C
> and more.
> Looks like problem somewhere in FP. To clean main connector I used
> Electronic Contact Cleaner. It may works not so good as Deoxit which
> is not widely available in Canada. In any case to move on have to buy
> Deoxit first.
> Thanks again
>
> 73, Nick VE3FJ
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[Nick Lelyak]

Thanks Don, Guy
appreciate yours quick response.
I found out that problem disappears when front panel warms up to 37 C
and more.
Looks like problem somewhere in FP. To clean main connector I used
Electronic Contact Cleaner. It may works not so good as Deoxit which
is not widely available in Canada. In any case to move on have to buy
Deoxit first.
Thanks again

73, Nick VE3FJ


On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:00 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> Nick,
>
> I don't think it is related to the synthesizer, but go through the other
> things you did (cleaning the Front Panel connector and some other boards) -
> you should unplug those, and depending on how you "cleaned" the connectors,
> wipe them carefully and reassemble.
> Work on each connector one at a time and test again after each one.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> On 9/7/2015 2:41 PM, Nick Lelyak wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> have replaced old synthesizer in my K3 for new KSYN3A and have problem
>> with
>> this modification.
>> Changing frequency by VFO A or VFO B several kHz up or down switches mode
>> to reverse
>> (CW to CWR, USB to LSB), frequency on display jumps 1 mHz lower ( ex.
>> 14015.00 > 13015.00,
>> 1830.00 > 0830.00 etc.) and band pass filters relay click can be heard at
>> the same moment.
>> After switching 1 mHz lower rotating VFO A frequency changes as it should,
>> nothing clicking, mode is not reversing but radio is far away from amateur
>> band.
>> After keeping radio an hour or so on and warming it up problem disappears.
>> K3 has no sub receiver installed. Firmware 5.33
>> Front panel connector and some other on boards around synthesizer were
>> cleaned.
>> When I put original synthesizer back problem didn't disappear and was
>> exactly same as with new unit.
>> I would appreciate any ideas to locate and fix this problem.
>> Thank you in advance
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[Don Wilhelm]

Nick,

I don't think it is related to the synthesizer, but go through the other 
things you did (cleaning the Front Panel connector and some other 
boards) - you should unplug those, and depending on how you "cleaned" 
the connectors, wipe them carefully and reassemble.

Work on each connector one at a time and test again after each one.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/7/2015 2:41 PM, Nick Lelyak wrote:

Hi,
have replaced old synthesizer in my K3 for new KSYN3A and have problem with
this modification.
Changing frequency by VFO A or VFO B several kHz up or down switches mode
to reverse
(CW to CWR, USB to LSB), frequency on display jumps 1 mHz lower ( ex.
14015.00 > 13015.00,
1830.00 > 0830.00 etc.) and band pass filters relay click can be heard at
the same moment.
After switching 1 mHz lower rotating VFO A frequency changes as it should,
nothing clicking, mode is not reversing but radio is far away from amateur
band.
After keeping radio an hour or so on and warming it up problem disappears.
K3 has no sub receiver installed. Firmware 5.33
Front panel connector and some other on boards around synthesizer were
cleaned.
When I put original synthesizer back problem didn't disappear and was
exactly same as with new unit.
I would appreciate any ideas to locate and fix this problem.
Thank you in advance




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[Elecraft] KSYN3A mod problem

[Nick Lelyak]

Hi,
have replaced old synthesizer in my K3 for new KSYN3A and have problem with
this modification.
Changing frequency by VFO A or VFO B several kHz up or down switches mode
to reverse
(CW to CWR, USB to LSB), frequency on display jumps 1 mHz lower ( ex.
14015.00 > 13015.00,
1830.00 > 0830.00 etc.) and band pass filters relay click can be heard at
the same moment.
After switching 1 mHz lower rotating VFO A frequency changes as it should,
nothing clicking, mode is not reversing but radio is far away from amateur
band.
After keeping radio an hour or so on and warming it up problem disappears.
K3 has no sub receiver installed. Firmware 5.33
Front panel connector and some other on boards around synthesizer were
cleaned.
When I put original synthesizer back problem didn't disappear and was
exactly same as with new unit.
I would appreciate any ideas to locate and fix this problem.
Thank you in advance

Nick, VE3FJ
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