Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
No * Kleinschmidt?* *Steve WM6P* *Fighting Communists since 1968. * __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
Dec 15, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR >>> wrote: >>> >>> Since I'm the one who started this discussion, let me summarize >>> what I think I've learned. The most effective argument, for me, is >>> the synergy among techs and relatively low marginal cost of adding >>> them in Watsonville, versus working with even established, >>> independent technicians elsewhere. That said, does anyone think >>> it's acceptable to have even a 4-week hold between arrival of the >>> item there and its entering the repair process? Elecraft equipment >>> isn't cheap, and I believe that the current situation needs to be >>> addressed, either in Watsonville or otherwise. >>> >>> 73, Pete N4ZR >>> >>>> On 12/15/2023 3:09 PM, Bob McGraw wrote: >>>> I can totally agree with Joe, W4TV. At one time I was repairing >>>> radios for various companies. I was doing warranty and >>>> non-warranty repairs. The companies decided it was cost >>>> ineffective to maintain independent repair services. Hence, I no >>>> longer repair radios, and no longer have test equipment to do so. >>>> There were other reasons as well, but I agree with Joe, W4TV, the >>>> expert knowledge base is in Watsonville. >>>> >>>> 73 >>>> >>>> Bob, K4TAX >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 12/15/2023 11:57 AM,elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote: >>>>> Message: 5 >>>>> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 13:03:23 -0500 >>>>> From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" >>>>> To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net >>>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma >>>>> Message-ID: >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> They clearly aren't interested in setting up a third party repair >>>>>> center. >>>>> Given the cost of setting up and running a second "factory >>>>> warranty/repair center" it just doesn't make sense. Notice >>>>> that none of the other radio manufacturers offer duplicate >>>>> facilities on the east/west coast ... even those that did so >>>>> at one time have pulled back. >>>>> >>>>> The cost of facilities, duplicate test equipment, duplicate >>>>> spare/repair parts, etc. simply can not be amortized economically >>>>> across one or two technicians. It's far more efficient to simply >>>>> add another technician or two (*IF* one can find a qualified tech) >>>>> "at the mothership". >>>>> >>>>> 73, >>>>> >>>>> ... Joe, W4TV >>>> __ >>>> Elecraft mailing list >>>> Home:http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>>> Help:http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >>>> Post:mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >>>> >>>> This list hosted by:http://www.qsl.net >>>> Please help support this email list:http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >>>> Message delivered topete.n...@gmail.com >>> __ >>> Elecraft mailing list >>> Home:http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>> Help:http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >>> Post:mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >>> >>> This list hosted by:http://www.qsl.net >>> Please help support this email list:http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >>> Message delivered tokj7...@gmail.com > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to w3fpr...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to th...@att.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
Early in my career at SW Bell (then management with AT&T Info Systems) I was a Teletype tech. We worked on Model 28, 33, 35, 40, 3274 bisync terminals, printers, tape punch, readers and tape printers. Classes on each model were five days a week, eight hours a day for three weeks. It took me at least a year to become proficient on most models. After two years I could pull a mainshaft on a Model 28/35 to replace clutch parts and have it back in service in 20 minutes. At that point as a TTY tech I was called on and traveled to assist others in a difficult repairs. My standard to become up to speed (maybe 90%) is about six months for the many jobs I had at AT&T. Sidebar: The model 33s were the 'economy' models. Adjustments were made by bending various parts, arms, levers, etc. From a technician point of view they were junk. John WB5THT On 12/16/2023 7:51 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote: Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Send it to Watsonville for the best service. Let me give you a story of my personal experience. When I started with K2 repairs, I had Gary Surrency to bounce any difficult situations off of.? Gary was kind enough to lead me 'by the hand' through the initial process.? I was on the east coast area working remotely with both Gary (Arizona) and Watsonville. After about 6 months, Gary asked me why I only asked about difficult questions, and I told him that the easy ones I had already solved. Go on to my 'retirement' from repairs.? Dave Van Wallaghen W8FGU took over.? Dave already had experience with the legacy gear that I was working on. Still, it took about 6 months before Dave was fully on-board, and after almost 2 years, he still asks about some of the 'really strange stuff' that he encounters, and I may or may not be able to offer any additional information.. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
ff who are willing to move to a small agricultural >> community in north central California to work on skilled electronics repair. >> It just won’t happen. There IS no way to “address the situation”. This is >> the global reality in a post COVID world and it behooves us to be patient >> since it can’t be changed. >> >> And FYI, uplifting an entire company and moving elsewhere is simply >> impractical. And it still won’t address the labor shortage. >> >> 73, Adrian >> K7RJS >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote: >>> >>> Since I'm the one who started this discussion, let me summarize what I >>> think I've learned. The most effective argument, for me, is the synergy >>> among techs and relatively low marginal cost of adding them in Watsonville, >>> versus working with even established, independent technicians elsewhere. >>> That said, does anyone think it's acceptable to have even a 4-week hold >>> between arrival of the item there and its entering the repair process? >>> Elecraft equipment isn't cheap, and I believe that the current situation >>> needs to be addressed, either in Watsonville or otherwise. >>> >>> 73, Pete N4ZR >>> >>>> On 12/15/2023 3:09 PM, Bob McGraw wrote: >>>> I can totally agree with Joe, W4TV. At one time I was repairing radios >>>> for various companies. I was doing warranty and non-warranty repairs. >>>> The companies decided it was cost ineffective to maintain independent >>>> repair services. Hence, I no longer repair radios, and no longer have >>>> test equipment to do so. There were other reasons as well, but I agree >>>> with Joe, W4TV, the expert knowledge base is in Watsonville. >>>> >>>> 73 >>>> >>>> Bob, K4TAX >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 12/15/2023 11:57 AM,elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote: >>>>> Message: 5 >>>>> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 13:03:23 -0500 >>>>> From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" >>>>> To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net >>>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma >>>>> Message-ID: >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> They clearly aren't interested in setting up a third party repair >>>>>> center. >>>>> Given the cost of setting up and running a second "factory >>>>> warranty/repair center" it just doesn't make sense. Notice >>>>> that none of the other radio manufacturers offer duplicate >>>>> facilities on the east/west coast ... even those that did so >>>>> at one time have pulled back. >>>>> >>>>> The cost of facilities, duplicate test equipment, duplicate >>>>> spare/repair parts, etc. simply can not be amortized economically >>>>> across one or two technicians. It's far more efficient to simply >>>>> add another technician or two (*IF* one can find a qualified tech) >>>>> "at the mothership". >>>>> >>>>> 73, >>>>> >>>>> ... Joe, W4TV >>>> __ >>>> Elecraft mailing list >>>> Home:http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>>> Help:http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >>>> Post:mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >>>> >>>> This list hosted by:http://www.qsl.net >>>> Please help support this email list:http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >>>> Message delivered topete.n...@gmail.com >>> __ >>> Elecraft mailing list >>> Home:http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>> Help:http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >>> Post:mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >>> >>> This list hosted by:http://www.qsl.net >>> Please help support this email list:http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >>> Message delivered tokj7...@gmail.com > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to w3fpr...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to gerrylear...@icloud.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
ther in Watsonville or otherwise. 73, Pete N4ZR On 12/15/2023 3:09 PM, Bob McGraw wrote: I can totally agree with Joe, W4TV. At one time I was repairing radios for various companies. I was doing warranty and non-warranty repairs. The companies decided it was cost ineffective to maintain independent repair services. Hence, I no longer repair radios, and no longer have test equipment to do so. There were other reasons as well, but I agree with Joe, W4TV, the expert knowledge base is in Watsonville. 73 Bob, K4TAX On 12/15/2023 11:57 AM,elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote: Message: 5 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 13:03:23 -0500 From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed They clearly aren't interested in setting up a third party repair center. Given the cost of setting up and running a second "factory warranty/repair center" it just doesn't make sense. Notice that none of the other radio manufacturers offer duplicate facilities on the east/west coast ... even those that did so at one time have pulled back. The cost of facilities, duplicate test equipment, duplicate spare/repair parts, etc. simply can not be amortized economically across one or two technicians. It's far more efficient to simply add another technician or two (*IF* one can find a qualified tech) "at the mothership". 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home:http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post:mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by:http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list:http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered topete.n...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home:http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post:mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by:http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list:http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered tokj7...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w3fpr...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
Sorry, Adrian - I hear you but I am not willing to accept that location trumps everything. Sure it costs money to train new techs, and I'm sure it's hard to recruit them, but what is the alternative? Continue to be without a very expensive and essential piece of equipment for weeks/months? 73, Pete N4ZR On 12/15/2023 3:41 PM, KJ7SOY wrote: Pete: I can understand your frustrations. However I think your sentiment that “the current situation needs to be addressed, either in Watsonville or otherwise” doesn’t recognize current global business realities. As background, I lived in Monterey, just down the road from Watsonville, for three years (2013-2016) and I know the area well. Watsonville has a population of about 50,000 and the primary industry (about 80% of the business in the area) is agriculture. People won’t move to small/medium sized agricultural communities because there isn’t a lot there for them, so importing skilled staff isn’t feasible. Domestically there aren’t skilled persons around who could be hired to work on the radios because again it’s primarily an agricultural community. The company itself isn’t large, I understand, and they’re going as fast as they can all the time. With the current global labor shortage it’s close to impossible to hire people in ANY industry, and electronics fabrication and repair is no exception. So basically what you’re saying is the company should buck the global trend and import or train staff who are willing to move to a small agricultural community in north central California to work on skilled electronics repair. It just won’t happen. There IS no way to “address the situation”. This is the global reality in a post COVID world and it behooves us to be patient since it can’t be changed. And FYI, uplifting an entire company and moving elsewhere is simply impractical. And it still won’t address the labor shortage. 73, Adrian K7RJS On Dec 15, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote: Since I'm the one who started this discussion, let me summarize what I think I've learned. The most effective argument, for me, is the synergy among techs and relatively low marginal cost of adding them in Watsonville, versus working with even established, independent technicians elsewhere. That said, does anyone think it's acceptable to have even a 4-week hold between arrival of the item there and its entering the repair process? Elecraft equipment isn't cheap, and I believe that the current situation needs to be addressed, either in Watsonville or otherwise. 73, Pete N4ZR On 12/15/2023 3:09 PM, Bob McGraw wrote: I can totally agree with Joe, W4TV. At one time I was repairing radios for various companies. I was doing warranty and non-warranty repairs. The companies decided it was cost ineffective to maintain independent repair services. Hence, I no longer repair radios, and no longer have test equipment to do so. There were other reasons as well, but I agree with Joe, W4TV, the expert knowledge base is in Watsonville. 73 Bob, K4TAX On 12/15/2023 11:57 AM,elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote: Message: 5 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 13:03:23 -0500 From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed They clearly aren't interested in setting up a third party repair center. Given the cost of setting up and running a second "factory warranty/repair center" it just doesn't make sense. Notice that none of the other radio manufacturers offer duplicate facilities on the east/west coast ... even those that did so at one time have pulled back. The cost of facilities, duplicate test equipment, duplicate spare/repair parts, etc. simply can not be amortized economically across one or two technicians. It's far more efficient to simply add another technician or two (*IF* one can find a qualified tech) "at the mothership". 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home:http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post:mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by:http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list:http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered topete.n...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home:http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post:mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by:http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list:http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered tokj7...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mail
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
Flex isn’t cheap either but the wait for non-warranty repair tells Elecrafters waiting; hold my beer. A month minimum, often longer. 73, Rick NK7I > On Dec 15, 2023, at 12:25 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote: > > That said, does anyone think it's acceptable to have even a 4-week hold > between arrival of the item there and its entering the repair process? > Elecraft equipment isn't cheap, and I believe that the current situation > needs to be addressed, either in Watsonville or otherwise. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
On 12/15/2023 12:41 PM, KJ7SOY wrote: and the primary industry (about 80% of the business in the area) is agriculture. People won’t move to small/medium sized agricultural communities because there isn’t a lot there for them, so importing skilled staff isn’t feasible. That's a pretty limited description of the Monterey Bay area, which Watsonville roughly centers. Since 2006, I've lived about 20 miles north in the Santa Cruz Mountains. There's a LOT of technical talent around here. Watsonville is 40-50 miles from Silicon Valley, and people from this area commute to, or work remotely for companies based there. The real issues are 1) cost of living -- it ain't cheap to live here, and 2) there's a lot of competition for talent. It's a great place to live, it's also popular with tourists. When I raised the manpower issue with Wayne in direct email several years ago, his response was something like, "have you tried hiring technical talent recently?" > With the current global labor shortage it’s close to impossible to > hire people in ANY industry, and electronics fabrication and repair is > no exception. Yep! 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
Pete: I can understand your frustrations. However I think your sentiment that “the current situation needs to be addressed, either in Watsonville or otherwise” doesn’t recognize current global business realities. As background, I lived in Monterey, just down the road from Watsonville, for three years (2013-2016) and I know the area well. Watsonville has a population of about 50,000 and the primary industry (about 80% of the business in the area) is agriculture. People won’t move to small/medium sized agricultural communities because there isn’t a lot there for them, so importing skilled staff isn’t feasible. Domestically there aren’t skilled persons around who could be hired to work on the radios because again it’s primarily an agricultural community. The company itself isn’t large, I understand, and they’re going as fast as they can all the time. With the current global labor shortage it’s close to impossible to hire people in ANY industry, and electronics fabrication and repair is no exception. So basically what you’re saying is the company should buck the global trend and import or train staff who are willing to move to a small agricultural community in north central California to work on skilled electronics repair. It just won’t happen. There IS no way to “address the situation”. This is the global reality in a post COVID world and it behooves us to be patient since it can’t be changed. And FYI, uplifting an entire company and moving elsewhere is simply impractical. And it still won’t address the labor shortage. 73, Adrian K7RJS > On Dec 15, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote: > > Since I'm the one who started this discussion, let me summarize what I think > I've learned. The most effective argument, for me, is the synergy among > techs and relatively low marginal cost of adding them in Watsonville, versus > working with even established, independent technicians elsewhere. That said, > does anyone think it's acceptable to have even a 4-week hold between arrival > of the item there and its entering the repair process? Elecraft equipment > isn't cheap, and I believe that the current situation needs to be addressed, > either in Watsonville or otherwise. > > 73, Pete N4ZR > >> On 12/15/2023 3:09 PM, Bob McGraw wrote: >> I can totally agree with Joe, W4TV. At one time I was repairing radios for >> various companies. I was doing warranty and non-warranty repairs. The >> companies decided it was cost ineffective to maintain independent repair >> services. Hence, I no longer repair radios, and no longer have test >> equipment to do so. There were other reasons as well, but I agree with Joe, >> W4TV, the expert knowledge base is in Watsonville. >> >> 73 >> >> Bob, K4TAX >> >> >>> On 12/15/2023 11:57 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote: >>> Message: 5 >>> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 13:03:23 -0500 >>> From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" >>> To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net >>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma >>> Message-ID: >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed >>> >>> >>>> They clearly aren't interested in setting up a third party repair >>>> center. >>> Given the cost of setting up and running a second "factory >>> warranty/repair center" it just doesn't make sense. Notice >>> that none of the other radio manufacturers offer duplicate >>> facilities on the east/west coast ... even those that did so >>> at one time have pulled back. >>> >>> The cost of facilities, duplicate test equipment, duplicate >>> spare/repair parts, etc. simply can not be amortized economically >>> across one or two technicians. It's far more efficient to simply >>> add another technician or two (*IF* one can find a qualified tech) >>> "at the mothership". >>> >>> 73, >>> >>> ... Joe, W4TV >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to pete.n...@gmail.com > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to kj7...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
On 12/15/2023 3:09 PM, Bob McGraw wrote: There were other reasons as well, but I agree with Joe, W4TV, the expert knowledge base is in Watsonville. My cost/benefit analysis did not even consider the knowledge base that exists in Watsonville. Time to repair (TTR) would likely be 15 to 20% longer in a remote/independent facility. The remote facility would not be likely to have access to any repair history (or saved manufacturing configuration files) for the device being repaired that exist in Watsonville nor would technicians in the remote facility have the benefit of the experience (institutional memory) of the more experienced technicians. Again, manufacturers are regularly finding it more cost effective to add repair technicians at a central location (*IF* they can find qualified technicians) than to establish remote maintenance facilities - that has been true for 20 years or more at this point. Unfortunately, Elecraft are in a difficult situation ... they are in a very high cost environment with significant competition for skilled technicians. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 12/15/2023 3:09 PM, Bob McGraw wrote: I can totally agree with Joe, W4TV. At one time I was repairing radios for various companies. I was doing warranty and non-warranty repairs. The companies decided it was cost ineffective to maintain independent repair services. Hence, I no longer repair radios, and no longer have test equipment to do so. There were other reasons as well, but I agree with Joe, W4TV, the expert knowledge base is in Watsonville. 73 Bob, K4TAX On 12/15/2023 11:57 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote: Message: 5 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 13:03:23 -0500 From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed They clearly aren't interested in setting up a third party repair center. Given the cost of setting up and running a second "factory warranty/repair center" it just doesn't make sense. Notice that none of the other radio manufacturers offer duplicate facilities on the east/west coast ... even those that did so at one time have pulled back. The cost of facilities, duplicate test equipment, duplicate spare/repair parts, etc. simply can not be amortized economically across one or two technicians. It's far more efficient to simply add another technician or two (*IF* one can find a qualified tech) "at the mothership". 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
Since I'm the one who started this discussion, let me summarize what I think I've learned. The most effective argument, for me, is the synergy among techs and relatively low marginal cost of adding them in Watsonville, versus working with even established, independent technicians elsewhere. That said, does anyone think it's acceptable to have even a 4-week hold between arrival of the item there and its entering the repair process? Elecraft equipment isn't cheap, and I believe that the current situation needs to be addressed, either in Watsonville or otherwise. 73, Pete N4ZR On 12/15/2023 3:09 PM, Bob McGraw wrote: I can totally agree with Joe, W4TV. At one time I was repairing radios for various companies. I was doing warranty and non-warranty repairs. The companies decided it was cost ineffective to maintain independent repair services. Hence, I no longer repair radios, and no longer have test equipment to do so. There were other reasons as well, but I agree with Joe, W4TV, the expert knowledge base is in Watsonville. 73 Bob, K4TAX On 12/15/2023 11:57 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote: Message: 5 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 13:03:23 -0500 From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed They clearly aren't interested in setting up a third party repair center. Given the cost of setting up and running a second "factory warranty/repair center" it just doesn't make sense. Notice that none of the other radio manufacturers offer duplicate facilities on the east/west coast ... even those that did so at one time have pulled back. The cost of facilities, duplicate test equipment, duplicate spare/repair parts, etc. simply can not be amortized economically across one or two technicians. It's far more efficient to simply add another technician or two (*IF* one can find a qualified tech) "at the mothership". 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to pete.n...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] User's Dilemma
I can totally agree with Joe, W4TV. At one time I was repairing radios for various companies. I was doing warranty and non-warranty repairs. The companies decided it was cost ineffective to maintain independent repair services. Hence, I no longer repair radios, and no longer have test equipment to do so. There were other reasons as well, but I agree with Joe, W4TV, the expert knowledge base is in Watsonville. 73 Bob, K4TAX On 12/15/2023 11:57 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote: Message: 5 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 13:03:23 -0500 From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed They clearly aren't interested in setting up a third party repair center. Given the cost of setting up and running a second "factory warranty/repair center" it just doesn't make sense. Notice that none of the other radio manufacturers offer duplicate facilities on the east/west coast ... even those that did so at one time have pulled back. The cost of facilities, duplicate test equipment, duplicate spare/repair parts, etc. simply can not be amortized economically across one or two technicians. It's far more efficient to simply add another technician or two (*IF* one can find a qualified tech) "at the mothership". 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
AFAIK, ML&S have never officially repaired Elecraft products. You may be confusing them with Waters & Stanton. W&S were the main UK agents for Elecraft when the K4 was about to be launched, but IMO their projected prices were far too high, especially for the internal tuner. AFAIK W&S lost their only (Elecraft) qualified engineer, ISTR sometime around when they moved premises and merged with other companies. The move may be the reason for the engineer not going with them. They never recovered their facility and although they were still advertising Elecraft products (K4 included) they didn’t appear to have any, only old stock. I can’t remember whether it was Wayne or Eric who announced a short while back that some negotiations were taking place with Moonraker. You’d have to ask them for progress news. The VAT situation in the UK for overseas repairs is an absolute farce, but nobody seems to have the inclination, time or money to take on a government department, knowing that they would most likely not win. I don’t use my internal xverter in my K3S much either and as it’s not easily transferable to the K4, I’ll be selling it as part of the K3S/P3. I wouldn’t be sending my K3S across the pond for a rotary encoder either. Fortunately, I have quite an advantage in that I’ve been a service engineer and programmer in the past for major companies selling various unrelated products and I have an SMD workstation and anti-static facility, so I have no real worries about carrying out my own repairs. I guess the most difficult part is obtaining obscure components. 73, Alan - G4GNX South Coast UK Elecraft K4D / KPA500 / KAT500 / IC-9700 > On 15 Dec 2023, at 15:07, Richard Corfield wrote: > > I thought ML&S serviced Elecraft in the UK. Sad that that's gone. My > experience with my KX3 was to send it to America. This was pre-Brexit, so... > > It was sent to America for repair of a rotary encoder and addition of the > 2m module back in 2019. This was a paperwork nightmare as I had to export > it as goods for repair, and it had to come back with the right paperwork to > connect it to my export in order that I don't pay import duties and taxes > on over £1000 worth of radio! I had to find the original receipt from the > original owner so that Elecraft on returning it could be sure to prove that > tax had been paid on the radio in the UK. The paperwork I filled in is > designed for goods export for sale, and I ended up writing on it in large > letters something like TEMPORARY EXPORT FOR REPAIR. > > It came back I think without the 2m module installed (my emails to UPS are > about it having a significant part missing), though it looks like I may > have paid VAT on that (I can find a VAT bill for £85 which implies an item > cost of £425 which would be the repair, parts, 2m module and shipping > > It was sent to repair in Italy for uniting with the 2m module and > calibration. We were in the EU at the time so this was easy. I imagine the > experience now we are out of the EU would be like the experience I had > sending to America. > > In retrospect I've not used the 2m module that much. I'll have to get out > for more UKAC contests with it, but family is keeping me very busy at the > moment. I think the filter module would be a good purchase for my use of > the radio for CW. > > The rotary encoder failed again, and I repaired it myself this time. It was > easier to risk my repair skills on a >£1000 radio than go through that > shipping/customs polava again. The original repair with Elecraft did allow > for the radio to be thoroughly checked over and any other needed updates to > be made, which was good. > > - Richard > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
I thought ML&S serviced Elecraft in the UK. Sad that that's gone. My experience with my KX3 was to send it to America. This was pre-Brexit, so... It was sent to America for repair of a rotary encoder and addition of the 2m module back in 2019. This was a paperwork nightmare as I had to export it as goods for repair, and it had to come back with the right paperwork to connect it to my export in order that I don't pay import duties and taxes on over £1000 worth of radio! I had to find the original receipt from the original owner so that Elecraft on returning it could be sure to prove that tax had been paid on the radio in the UK. The paperwork I filled in is designed for goods export for sale, and I ended up writing on it in large letters something like TEMPORARY EXPORT FOR REPAIR. It came back I think without the 2m module installed (my emails to UPS are about it having a significant part missing), though it looks like I may have paid VAT on that (I can find a VAT bill for £85 which implies an item cost of £425 which would be the repair, parts, 2m module and shipping It was sent to repair in Italy for uniting with the 2m module and calibration. We were in the EU at the time so this was easy. I imagine the experience now we are out of the EU would be like the experience I had sending to America. In retrospect I've not used the 2m module that much. I'll have to get out for more UKAC contests with it, but family is keeping me very busy at the moment. I think the filter module would be a good purchase for my use of the radio for CW. The rotary encoder failed again, and I repaired it myself this time. It was easier to risk my repair skills on a >£1000 radio than go through that shipping/customs polava again. The original repair with Elecraft did allow for the radio to be thoroughly checked over and any other needed updates to be made, which was good. - Richard On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 at 07:56, Doug Turnbull wrote: > Dear OMs, > The problem is that radio prices would almost certainly need to go up > to give the dealer a margin after his/her own expenses. > >An independent service facility would be nice but is there adequate > business in this?Not so sure we in EI could easily use a UK service > facility. I prefer to ship to California than Italy. The cost of > shipping to Italy may not be so wildly different than the cost of > California freight. Have a friend who lost a SPE 2K FA in shipping to Rome > and received no compensation. > > It is a problem for sure. I have always dealt directly with the > factory and have been fortunate.A conundrum for sure. Enjoy your > Elecraft. Be careful and pray. > > 73 Doug EI2CN > > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
Dear OMs, The problem is that radio prices would almost certainly need to go up to give the dealer a margin after his/her own expenses. An independent service facility would be nice but is there adequate business in this?Not so sure we in EI could easily use a UK service facility. I prefer to ship to California than Italy. The cost of shipping to Italy may not be so wildly different than the cost of California freight. Have a friend who lost a SPE 2K FA in shipping to Rome and received no compensation. It is a problem for sure. I have always dealt directly with the factory and have been fortunate.A conundrum for sure. Enjoy your Elecraft. Be careful and pray. 73 Doug EI2CN On Thu 14 Dec 2023, 19:14 Dave, wrote: > It’s even more of an issue for those of us outside the USA. Shipping a > relatively large and valuable parcel is hugely expensive, in both carriage > and insurance. > > Elecraft did have a UK dealer, but currently the only repair option is > California or possibly Italy. Not having a service manual makes even a > simple “kitchen table” type repair unlikely, although I’m sure that the > techs at Elecraft would help as much as they can. > > I’m sure sales would increase if there was local sales and support. > > 73 Dave G4AON (K4D, KPA500, KX3, K2 and K1) > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to turnb...@net1.ie __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
On 12/14/2023 10:57 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote: If they were starting from scratch, I'd agree, but there are currently-operating independent technicians out here who could be up and running relatively easily. I supervised a service department many years ago, having previously worked on a service bench, and driving around Chicago doing field service. And as it happens, I visited Elecraft yesterday with my KPA1500 (45 minutes each way with traffic). There is considerable benefit from experience on specific equipment, and to the interchange between techs working on the same products on the basis of "come over and look at what I'm seeing." That happened with my KPA1500. There's also the matter of stocking repair parts. Yes, shipping time is a factor of a few days, at least within North America, but not having enough techs working on a bench is multiple weeks, even more than a month. If I were Elecraft, I'd devote resources to hiring another tech or two. And with either location, there's the matter of training and developing experience on specific equipment. The mentoring to do that is far easier to do with a tech working on the bench next to you. That is happening at Elecraft. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
It’s even more of an issue for those of us outside the USA. Shipping a relatively large and valuable parcel is hugely expensive, in both carriage and insurance. Elecraft did have a UK dealer, but currently the only repair option is California or possibly Italy. Not having a service manual makes even a simple “kitchen table” type repair unlikely, although I’m sure that the techs at Elecraft would help as much as they can. I’m sure sales would increase if there was local sales and support. 73 Dave G4AON (K4D, KPA500, KX3, K2 and K1) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
If they were starting from scratch, I'd agree, but there are currently-operating independent technicians out here who could be up and running relatively easily. 73, Pete N4ZR On 12/14/2023 1:03 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: They clearly aren't interested in setting up a third party repair center. Given the cost of setting up and running a second "factory warranty/repair center" it just doesn't make sense. Notice that none of the other radio manufacturers offer duplicate facilities on the east/west coast ... even those that did so at one time have pulled back. The cost of facilities, duplicate test equipment, duplicate spare/repair parts, etc. simply can not be amortized economically across one or two technicians. It's far more efficient to simply add another technician or two (*IF* one can find a qualified tech) "at the mothership". 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 12/14/2023 12:38 PM, David Gilbert wrote: People have been requesting that for years, but I've never even seen a response from Elecraft on it. I doubt they will this time either. They clearly aren't interested in setting up a third party repair center. Dave AB7E On 12/14/2023 8:38 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote: I love my K3/KPA-1500, and most all the Elecraft owners I know of around here share this enthusiasm. Since the pandemic, though, the service department seems to be over-stressed, with delays of 5-7 weeks before repairs are begun seeming common. For us on the East coast, you can add another 2 weeks for shipping. I wonder if maybe it's time for Elecraft to lighten the burden in Watsonville by empowering someone else (maybe on the East Coast) to do repairs. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to pete.n...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
They clearly aren't interested in setting up a third party repair center. Given the cost of setting up and running a second "factory warranty/repair center" it just doesn't make sense. Notice that none of the other radio manufacturers offer duplicate facilities on the east/west coast ... even those that did so at one time have pulled back. The cost of facilities, duplicate test equipment, duplicate spare/repair parts, etc. simply can not be amortized economically across one or two technicians. It's far more efficient to simply add another technician or two (*IF* one can find a qualified tech) "at the mothership". 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 12/14/2023 12:38 PM, David Gilbert wrote: People have been requesting that for years, but I've never even seen a response from Elecraft on it. I doubt they will this time either. They clearly aren't interested in setting up a third party repair center. Dave AB7E On 12/14/2023 8:38 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote: I love my K3/KPA-1500, and most all the Elecraft owners I know of around here share this enthusiasm. Since the pandemic, though, the service department seems to be over-stressed, with delays of 5-7 weeks before repairs are begun seeming common. For us on the East coast, you can add another 2 weeks for shipping. I wonder if maybe it's time for Elecraft to lighten the burden in Watsonville by empowering someone else (maybe on the East Coast) to do repairs. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] User's Dilemma
People have been requesting that for years, but I've never even seen a response from Elecraft on it. I doubt they will this time either. They clearly aren't interested in setting up a third party repair center. Dave AB7E On 12/14/2023 8:38 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote: I love my K3/KPA-1500, and most all the Elecraft owners I know of around here share this enthusiasm. Since the pandemic, though, the service department seems to be over-stressed, with delays of 5-7 weeks before repairs are begun seeming common. For us on the East coast, you can add another 2 weeks for shipping. I wonder if maybe it's time for Elecraft to lighten the burden in Watsonville by empowering someone else (maybe on the East Coast) to do repairs. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] User's Dilemma
I love my K3/KPA-1500, and most all the Elecraft owners I know of around here share this enthusiasm. Since the pandemic, though, the service department seems to be over-stressed, with delays of 5-7 weeks before repairs are begun seeming common. For us on the East coast, you can add another 2 weeks for shipping. I wonder if maybe it's time for Elecraft to lighten the burden in Watsonville by empowering someone else (maybe on the East Coast) to do repairs. -- 73, Pete N4ZR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
