Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet?
Actually, anyone considering remote operation Remoterig, QSK is totally out, not ever going to work. 73, Fred K6DGW Sparks NV Washoe County DM09dn On 12/22/2016 7:34 PM, Bob Nielsen wrote: I doubt that you would be satisfied with the delays (QSK is definitely out!) 73, Bob N7XY __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet?
I doubt that you would be satisfied with the delays (QSK is definitely out!) 73, Bob N7XY On 12/22/16 1:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote: Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up over a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others I'm interested to if this a possible solution to a AT DSL internet line (better or worse?) Thanks for any input. 73 Bill W4RM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to n...@n7xy.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet?
The Clarke Belt is too far away, and the speed of light is inconveniently slow. On 12/22/2016 1:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote: Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up over a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet?
Thanks Mitch I think we can close this thread as I cant find any light at the end of the rainbow. 73 Bill W4RM From: Mitch Wolfson, DJØQN / K7DX [mailto:dj...@gmx.net] Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 6:26 PM To: Bill OMara <w...@aol.com>; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet? Bill, There are no good news stories on using RemoteRig over satellite. A couple of people have been on the RemoteRig Forum where things like this are discussed at http://www.remoterig.com/forum/index.php and had tried in vain to get it to work. As Joe wrote, the latency is too high to make it work. To put it more in numbers, the speed of light is (only) 300,000 km/s and the geosynchronous satellites are in orbit at 40,000 km. Therefore, for the double round trip that is necessary for the packets, you have a trip of 160,000 km. This gives you a latency of 533 ms. Then you need to add on the normal ground latency that comes on top of this in the 200 ms range, giving you a delay of about three-quarters of one second! Things get difficult for SSB once you hit about 200 ms, so this just will not work due to physics. 73, Mitch DJ0QN / K7DX Mitch Wolfson DJØQN / K7DX 10285 Boca Cir, Naples, FL 34109 Skype: mitchwo USA: Home:+1-239-221-9600 - Mobile:+1-424-288-9171 Germany: Home:+49 89 32152700 - Mobile:+49 172 8374436 On 22.12.2016 17:56, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote: Jim and others, I agree with everything that everyone has said. That's why I was asking about a good news story? Has anyone tried it? Any real first hand reports? The specs don't always tell the truth, but most of the time they do! 73 Bill W4RM -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim Brown Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 5:43 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net <mailto:elecraft@mailman.qth.net> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet? On Thu,12/22/2016 1:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote: Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up over a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others There are at least two issues. The most obvious is latency -- how much "turn around" time are you able to tolerate? You've got to make the round trip up and back to the bird, and that's in addition to digital encoding latency. The second issue is bandwidth. I've heard that satellite systems aren't exactly speedy. :) 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w...@aol.com <mailto:w...@aol.com> __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to dj...@arrl.net <mailto:dj...@arrl.net> __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet?
Bill, There are *no *good news stories on using RemoteRig over satellite. A couple of people have been on the RemoteRig Forum where things like this are discussed at http://www.remoterig.com/forum/index.php and had tried in vain to get it to work. As Joe wrote, the latency is too high to make it work. To put it more in numbers, the speed of light is (only) 300,000 km/s and the geosynchronous satellites are in orbit at 40,000 km. Therefore, for the double round trip that is necessary for the packets, you have a trip of 160,000 km. This gives you a latency of 533 ms. Then you need to add on the normal ground latency that comes on top of this in the 200 ms range, giving you a delay of about three-quarters of one second! Things get difficult for SSB once you hit about 200 ms, so this just will not work due to physics. 73, Mitch DJ0QN / K7DX Mitch Wolfson DJØQN / K7DX 10285 Boca Cir, Naples, FL 34109 Skype: mitchwo USA: Home:+1-239-221-9600 - Mobile:+1-424-288-9171 Germany: Home:+49 89 32152700 - Mobile:+49 172 8374436 On 22.12.2016 17:56, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote: Jim and others, I agree with everything that everyone has said. That's why I was asking about a good news story? Has anyone tried it? Any real first hand reports? The specs don't always tell the truth, but most of the time they do! 73 Bill W4RM -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim Brown Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 5:43 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet? On Thu,12/22/2016 1:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote: Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up over a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others There are at least two issues. The most obvious is latency -- how much "turn around" time are you able to tolerate? You've got to make the round trip up and back to the bird, and that's in addition to digital encoding latency. The second issue is bandwidth. I've heard that satellite systems aren't exactly speedy. :) 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w...@aol.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to dj...@arrl.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet?
Jim and others, I agree with everything that everyone has said. That's why I was asking about a good news story? Has anyone tried it? Any real first hand reports? The specs don't always tell the truth, but most of the time they do! 73 Bill W4RM -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim Brown Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 5:43 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet? On Thu,12/22/2016 1:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote: > Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up > over a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others There are at least two issues. The most obvious is latency -- how much "turn around" time are you able to tolerate? You've got to make the round trip up and back to the bird, and that's in addition to digital encoding latency. The second issue is bandwidth. I've heard that satellite systems aren't exactly speedy. :) 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w...@aol.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet?
On Thu,12/22/2016 1:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote: Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up over a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others There are at least two issues. The most obvious is latency -- how much "turn around" time are you able to tolerate? You've got to make the round trip up and back to the bird, and that's in addition to digital encoding latency. The second issue is bandwidth. I've heard that satellite systems aren't exactly speedy. :) 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet?
The latency (delay) through the satellite will probably be a killer. IIRC, ping times through a satellite link are > 500 ms (120 ms up, 120 ms down *times two* plus any time in the network on each end). The question becomes can you handle ~1/2 second delay in control response and deal with audio that is delayed by ~1/4 second each way? 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 12/22/2016 4:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote: Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up over a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others I'm interested to if this a possible solution to a AT DSL internet line (better or worse?) Thanks for any input. 73 Bill W4RM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet?
I can come close. I currently operate W7RN remotely using our AT Uverse Internet. It's 45 Mbps from the street to the router, and the computer and Remoterig box run in the 18-20 Mbps down and half that up. Ping time to the station is in the 40-45 ms range. It works fine [well ... nearly all the time, sometimes the I'net loses packets but that's rare]. W7RN uses Teamviewer to access the PC that runs all the station automation. Teamviewer exhibits some increased latency, annoying but certainly usable, but that's not the remote radio connection. I have never operated a radio remotely over a satellite link. I have used such links [HughesNet] for computer-computer work. For file transfer, web downloads, and even interaction with web sites [Amazon, PayPal, etc], it is acceptable. For remote control of a distant computer, it is nearly, if not completely, unusable. The space delay is only about 27 ms or so, but there the net latency was in the 2-4 sec range so there must be additional delays involved. These experiences suggest, to me at least, that the latency of satellite links would make remote operation of a radio very difficult if not impossible. FWIW: We live in a suburban neighborhood with lots of wifi on the scanner. I put our Uverse wifi on the most occupied channel once [6] just to see the effect. The speed seen by the Remoterig box dropped to about 1.5 Mbps. Everything continued to work just fine. I've been told that it will work with 500 - 600 Kbps. 73, Fred K6DGW Sparks NV Washoe County DM09dn On 12/22/2016 1:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote: Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up over a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others I'm interested to if this a possible solution to a AT DSL internet line (better or worse?) Thanks for any input. 73 Bill W4RM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
