Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Don Wilhelm]

Erik,

If you want to experiment with trimming the oscillator for the clock, 
you can try varying the capacitance of C7 and C8 on the KXBC3 option board.


Nominal capacitor values are +/- 5%, so you may be able to find suitable 
capacitors that vary a bit from the nominal 15pF value that will set 
your RTC "right on".  A few pF either side will likely make a 
significant difference.


Again, a bit of experimentation will be in order to get it exactly 
correct.  The actual capacitor value can vary from the nominal value by 
0.75pF and still be in-spec, so only add/subtract a bit at a time.


Monitoring the results over a long time period can be tedious work, but 
if you want it "spot on", it may be worth the effort for you.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/29/2016 6:05 PM, etks...@gmail.com wrote:

I was just wondering if it was a one-off issue, and/or if there was a 
possibility of correcting the issue in any way.



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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[etks...@gmail.com]

Ha ha, a little snarky comment-wise, but it's an annoyance, not a deal 
breaker...  :-)

I was just wondering if it was a one-off issue, and/or if there was a 
possibility of correcting the issue in any way.

I've been doing some experimenting with condo patio antennas (hamstick dipole 
up a painters pole, vertical 16' telescoping, long wire up a Jackite pole) with 
the internal batteries at 5W and I'm more than happy with the KX3 over all!  
I've made as far as Ukraine at 5W from MA/USA...  :-P

  73, Erk W1QED


> On 29 Aug 2016, at 14:30, David Pratt  wrote:
> 
> In a recent message, "etks...@gmail.com"  writes
>> When you are logging to paper and have the radio clock displayed for
>> the specific purpose of having a handy UTC clock it's annoying when
>> it's off.  The KXBC3 is marketed as a battery charger and RTC, and I
>> bought it for both.
> 
> As it turned out not to be as expected, Erik, would you like to sell it?
> 
> 73 de David G4DMP
> 
> -- 
> + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - +
> | David M Pratt, Kippax, Leeds.   |
> | Website: http://www.g4dmp.co.uk |
> + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - +
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[David Pratt]

In a recent message, "etks...@gmail.com"  writes
>When you are logging to paper and have the radio clock displayed for
>the specific purpose of having a handy UTC clock it's annoying when
>it's off.  The KXBC3 is marketed as a battery charger and RTC, and I
>bought it for both.

As it turned out not to be as expected, Erik, would you like to sell it?

73 de David G4DMP

-- 
 + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - +
 | David M Pratt, Kippax, Leeds.   |
 | Website: http://www.g4dmp.co.uk |
 + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - +

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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[etks...@gmail.com]

When you are logging to paper and have the radio clock displayed for the 
specific purpose of having a handy UTC clock it's annoying when it's off.  The 
KXBC3 is marketed as a battery charger and RTC, and I bought it for both.

  Erik  W1QED

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 28, 2016, at 12:46 PM, GRANT YOUNGMAN > wrote:


> 
> Re:  "...the clock seems to lose a couple of minutes per month.”
> 

You know a radio must be pretty good when the complaints start drifting off to 
how accurate (or not) it is as a timepiece ;-)

Grant NQ5T


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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Bill]

Better to have a radio you can update, or that has updates instead of being
stuck with workarounds.  All SDR systems are on the "fly" so to speak.  I'd
rather own an upgradable radio where there are programmers acutally working
on updates.

Bill
K9YEQ

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes
Stewart
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 7:29 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

And my factory-built K3S.  Sometimes I feel like an unpaid beta tester:-)
To Elecraft's credit they almost always* fix it in due time.  (I keep a
spare radio on hand just in case)

* still waiting for that VOX/AntiVOX gain setting by mode.

As I write CY9C's RTTY signal is breaking up on the beginning of each
transmission. I'm guessing a VOX issue.



On 8/28/2016 11:35 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
> ... N7WS has found issues with some products, including his K3, ...
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>

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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

It'd draw power and make the radio bigger.

On 8/28/2016 9:58 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

So you think an onboard GPS is absurd, Don?


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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Wes Stewart]

And my factory-built K3S.  Sometimes I feel like an unpaid beta tester:-)  To 
Elecraft's credit they almost always* fix it in due time.  (I keep a spare radio 
on hand just in case)


* still waiting for that VOX/AntiVOX gain setting by mode.

As I write CY9C's RTTY signal is breaking up on the beginning of each 
transmission. I'm guessing a VOX issue.




On 8/28/2016 11:35 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

... N7WS has found issues with some products, including his K3, ...
73, Jim K9YC




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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 Clock Drift

[Gary Smith]

This may be a redux of what has already been stated but I am a nut 
for stability in my radio and my timekeeping. What I have done is 
purchased a BG7TBL from faymo-trading.service for $150 from Hong Kong 

(fast shipping and the newest version of this GPSDO). He still 
apparently is selling them: http://tinyurl.com/gtpzkvx

I have the KTCXO3-1 TXCO installed in the K3s & I installed the 
K3EXREF in the K3. It locks beautifully to the Satellite data and I 
then set REF CAL to sync with the GPSDO. 

I found two softwares to sync the computer with the satellites: NMEA 
time and BIG BEN. I chose NMEA as it has a smaller footprint but 
either are out of sight once you set it. Both use the info from the 
GPSDO and they sync to the computer and keep it accurate to an 
incredibly precise number. NMEA lives in the hidden icons folder and 
I have it set to start with the computer so it is syncing constantly 
and updating the computer clock every minute.

With the computer dead on, you just use the K3 Utility at the bottom 
of the Configuration tab and sync your accurate computer time to the 
K3/K3s.

Now my K3 is about as stable as possible and that is a beautiful 
thing.

73,

Gary
KA1J


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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift & On-Board GPS

[Wes Stewart]

I wish I would have bought something from them instead of the Leo Bodnar unit.  
It seems to be fine but the support is lacking.


On 8/28/2016 11:16 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

Jackson Labs makes REALLY nice stuff...  And THAT is not expensive in
the grand scheme of things...  LOTS of GPSDOs et al time/freq standards
costing many multiples of that price...  :)

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MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 8/28/2016 12:17 PM, Peter Pauly wrote:


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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Don Wilhelm]

Dave,

Yes, the RTC is an "add-on convenience" item for the rig.  It is a nice 
thing to have for logging when operating portable (set it before the 
outing).


As far as digital modes go, the Elecraft gear offers only PSK and FSK 
internally and as far as I know, those are not time critical and logging 
the contact as much as a minute off is not going to cause a big problem.
For those operating JT modes (which are time critical), a computer or 
other 'smart' device is required and the timing is controlled by that 
device and not by the K3(S), KX3 or KX2, so the RTC in the transceiver 
does not control the transmission/receive timing.


Certainly, I have a $39 Timex watch on my wrist, and it has not been set 
for the last many months.  It does not sync to WWVB or anything else, it 
just runs, and matches my atomic clock time if I ignore the seconds.  I 
consider that an accurate timepiece.


If Elecraft were to automate trimming the accuracy of the RTC, I suspect 
it would add to the cost of the option that includes the RTC.  With the 
RTC in the K2's KAF2 and KDSP2 options, the builder is given 
instructions on how to change the capacitor value to give more long term 
accuracy to the clock, but I don't know of any builders who have done 
that.  It takes a long time to determine how much clock drift occurs and 
it takes a bit of experimenting with the capacitor value to get it 
'right on'.  In other words, it is a lengthy process.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/28/2016 3:53 PM, w7aqk wrote:
Now Don, don't get testy!  Hi.  Actually, I think the critics may have 
a good point--especially the ones using digital. For me, it is no big 
deal, but the clock gets so far off so quickly I have stopped even 
looking at it. However, the digital users do need some precision in 
order to get their transmissions timed correctly for an exchange.


I don't know why the clock doesn't work so well, but there probably is 
a good explanation for it.  Still, in this day and age when a few 
bucks can get you a clock that only loses/gains a second or two a 
month, it's hard to understand why this clock performs so poorly.  I 
don't have a KX2 clock, but I do have one in my KX3.  At this moment 
it is 5 minutes fast, and I last set it to WWV about a month ago.  The 
specs for the KX2 clock say the deviation can be minimized to about 2 
seconds per day, so apparently it is a lot better!


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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Mark via Elecraft]

Re:  "$10 wristwatches are accurate to a few seconds per month."

Yep!  That is exactly what the original poster was concerned with.  You said it 
even better than he did.  The original poster's KXBC3 clock isn't as accurate 
as a $10 wristwatch.  Mine isn't either, last time I checked it.  
The poster simply asked what other people were experiencing, so I provided my 
experience.  I am not complaining. I dont really use the clock.  There are too 
many other things that need the display.  

Mark
KE6BB
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift & On-Board GPS

[Phil Wheeler]

HTs, of course. But I meant HF rigs. Sounds like there may be a few. 

Phil -- Sent from my iPhone 5S

> On Aug 28, 2016, at 13:10, Bill Gerth  wrote:
> 
> Hi Phil,
> 
> My Kenwood TMD710GA mobile ham transceiver has an onboard GPS receiver, 
> synchronized realtime clock, AND a packet TNC.  Makes a dandy self-contained 
> APRS system.  Granted, it is only for VHF/UHF on the ham bands (no HF).  It 
> also makes it really easy to set the KXBC3 clock in my KX3 just before 
> hitting the trail for a SOTA summit, even if I'm out of range on my cell 
> phone.
> 
> 73,
> BILL
> W4RK
> KX3 S/N 112
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 28, 2016, at 12:06 PM, Phil Wheeler  wrote:
>> 
>> As a matter of curiosity because I've not looked into it: Are there any ham 
>> transceivers with on-board GPS receivers?
>> 
>> Phil W7OX
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift & On-Board GPS

[Bill Gerth]

Hi Phil,

My Kenwood TMD710GA mobile ham transceiver has an onboard GPS receiver, 
synchronized realtime clock, AND a packet TNC.  Makes a dandy self-contained 
APRS system.  Granted, it is only for VHF/UHF on the ham bands (no HF).  It 
also makes it really easy to set the KXBC3 clock in my KX3 just before hitting 
the trail for a SOTA summit, even if I'm out of range on my cell phone.

73,
BILL
W4RK
KX3 S/N 112




On Aug 28, 2016, at 12:06 PM, Phil Wheeler  wrote:

> As a matter of curiosity because I've not looked into it: Are there any ham 
> transceivers with on-board GPS receivers?
> 
> Phil W7OX
> 
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Bill Frantz]

I certainly agree with Jim about liking light weight radios. I 
take my K3 out 2 or 3 times a year, and being able to easily 
carry it is very welcome. My KX3 is a perfect airplane rig.


But the real advantage of the radios, and the K3 in particular, 
is their modular construction. When the K3S came out it was 
possible to gain most of the advantages of K3S by upgrading a 
K3. Keeping up with advances in the art is not only cheaper, 
it's fun installing updates.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 8/28/16 at 11:35 AM, j...@audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) wrote:

No product is perfect, but perfection usually comes with 
increased cost. N7WS has found issues with some products, 
including his K3, and I've found issues as well. When I was a 
kid growing up in WV in the '50s, I didn't know anyone who 
could afford Collins gear, but I saw a lot of Heathkit, 
Hallicrafters, Hammerlund, Globe, and Viking. One of the great 
thing about Elecraft is that the gear is as good as it is at 
far lower cost than competitive products that cost a lot more. 
And I really love their design concept that a bigger heavier 
radio is not a better radio. I am SO happy to have those huge 
FT1000MPs gone from my operating desk. :)

---
Bill Frantz| I don't have high-speed  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | internet. I have DSL.| 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |  | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[w7aqk]

Now Don, don't get testy!  Hi.  Actually, I think the critics may have a 
good point--especially the ones using digital.  For me, it is no big deal, 
but the clock gets so far off so quickly I have stopped even looking at it. 
However, the digital users do need some precision in order to get their 
transmissions timed correctly for an exchange.


I don't know why the clock doesn't work so well, but there probably is a 
good explanation for it.  Still, in this day and age when a few bucks can 
get you a clock that only loses/gains a second or two a month, it's hard to 
understand why this clock performs so poorly.  I don't have a KX2 clock, but 
I do have one in my KX3.  At this moment it is 5 minutes fast, and I last 
set it to WWV about a month ago.  The specs for the KX2 clock say the 
deviation can be minimized to about 2 seconds per day, so apparently it is a 
lot better!  I have a wrist watch that barely loses or gains 1 second a 
month--it's solar powered and no GPS involved either!  In any event, it is a 
bit of a misnomer to call the rig accessory a "real time clock"!  Hi. 
However, the clock feature is really an "extra", and not the main reason for 
buying the accessory in the first place--at least I don't think anyone is 
doing that.  So, it's hard to be too critical of the cost, since that 
applies mainly to the other features provided by the accessory.


It would be nice to better understand the problem, though, so maybe someone 
from Elecraft can explain it.  Then we can all get back to our regularly 
scheduled program, which is already in progress!


Dave W7AQK


--
From: Don Wilhelm <donw...@embarqmail.com>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift
Message-ID: <4e2db433-d787-e8d4-a93f-520629edb...@embarqmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

I would like an icebox in my KX3 to keep my sandwiches cool while portable.
Oh, and how about an automatic coffee maker for use during contest
periods. :-) 


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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 Clock Drift

[Kevin]

Won't ever be a big deal. For JT65 and JT9 it's the computer clock that 
matters.  My rigs RTC could be off by an hour and it won't effect the 
timing of a JT65/JT9 QSO.It would matter if Elecraft decided to add 
those modes to the radio for direct keying by the on board keyer (God I 
hope not).



On 8/28/2016 1:23 PM, Clay Autery wrote:

Yes and no...  the utility will sync time with whatever computer/laptop
that is running the utility...  The accuracy of the computer is
independent of the utility.

This is what I am currently doing...  I have an NTP client running that
is keeping my laptop to within a few milliseconds
Periodically, I shut down Win4K3 Suite and crank up the K3 Utility, and
sync the time...

It's a bit fidgety...  don't always get a good sync...  So the radio is
never more accurate than the computer, and seldom matches the computer
on sync to less than 1/10th of a second or so best case...  luck of the
draw/random as to how close the sync ends up...

RIght now, not a big deal...  but on some of the digital modes, I am
given to understand that having the time sync pretty close is key to
function...


73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 8/28/2016 12:43 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:

Doesn’t the K3 Utility have a one-click process for setting the K3’s on-board 
clock time to UTC Internet time?  It doesn’t make the clock any more accurate, 
but it does offer a way of resetting without getting into the configuration 
menu.  As I recall it’s in the KX3 Utility as well.

Ted, KN1CBR

--
 
 Message: 9

 Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 08:34:22 -0600
 From: Ken G Kopp <kengk...@gmail.com>
 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift
 Message-ID:
<cad4cdtmz9qgej0jpudrwo7kjoa8ik-tep-pq4oq3fb3fjeu...@mail.gmail.com>
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
 
 Virtually everyone has cellphone at hand and it will provide the most

 accurate time commonly available.
 
 73!
 
 K0PP
 
  



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--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


---
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift & On-Board GPS

[Alan. G4GNX]

I believe that the IC7100 has the facility, but it's an option.

73,

Alan. G4GNX

-Original Message- 
From: Phil Wheeler 
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 6:06 PM 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift & On-Board GPS 

As a matter of curiosity because I've not looked 
into it: Are there any ham transceivers with 
on-board GPS receivers?


Phil W7OX
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Jim Brown]

On Sun,8/28/2016 11:12 AM, Joe Stone (KF5WBO) wrote:

I would say a customer has every right to see the schematic.


I think so too, but Elecraft is one of the few mfrs that provides 
schematics for most, if not all, of their products.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Don Wilhelm]

I have a Seiko watch that is extremely accurate twice a day! You just 
have to know when to look at it.

One day I will put a new battery in it.:-)

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/28/2016 2:25 PM, Kevin wrote:

Well that's it darn it!

I won't be happy with my radio till there's and actual cesium clock 
built in or available as an add on option. That'll make my JT65/JT9 
signals hyper accurate...Oh wait...that's the computer clock. I 
*demand* while Elecraft is fixing my radio's clock they also offer a 
fix for my computer clock. Oh wait...I'm already running Dimension 4 
that adjusts my computer to NIST time every 15 minutes. There's the 
answer. I *demand* Elecraft make available as an option a motherboard, 
processor, and sufficient memory to run Windows 10 and D4 on my radio. 
Of course the video from said radio will need to be displayed directly 
on a P3.




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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Jim Brown]

You are both correct -- I live about 20 miles from Eric, 3 miles from 
K6XX, and know Wayne from many conversations both on and off the 
reflector, including several in the bar at ham events. These guys are 
VERY clear-eyed observers of the scene, and I've never seen "worship" of 
their product line. No question -- Elecraft products are as good as they 
are because Eric and Wayne read this reflector every day, because they 
carefully study the needs/desires of their customers, and because they 
incorporate many customer suggestions and design advice into their 
products.


And, as a long time member of this reflector (about 12 years) have seen 
WAY too much "fan worship." But if you think it's bad here, spend a week 
reading the Ten Tec reflector, where the company and product they still 
worship no longer exists. :)


No product is perfect, but perfection usually comes with increased cost. 
N7WS has found issues with some products, including his K3, and I've 
found issues as well. When I was a kid growing up in WV in the '50s, I 
didn't know anyone who could afford Collins gear, but I saw a lot of 
Heathkit, Hallicrafters, Hammerlund, Globe, and Viking. One of the great 
thing about Elecraft is that the gear is as good as it is at far lower 
cost than competitive products that cost a lot more. And I really love 
their design concept that a bigger heavier radio is not a better radio. 
I am SO happy to have those huge FT1000MPs gone from my operating desk. :)


73, Jim K9YC



On Sun,8/28/2016 8:21 AM, Ray Sills wrote:

OTOH, many criticisms have resulted in improvements in the products.  Wayne and 
Eric are quite capable of tolerating criticism, so owners are more than welcome 
to point out any deficiency or problem.  That’s why people like Elecraft 
products: having the ear of the company.

73 de Ray
K2ULR
KX3 #211



On Aug 28, 2016, at 11:06 AM, Wes Stewart  wrote:

QSL

On 8/28/2016 7:55 AM, Mike Morrow wrote:

Elecraft fans often have a great tendency to dismiss without substantive basis 
any non-worshipful criticism...at least as far as I've observed in 16 years as 
an owner and list member. :-)
Mike / KK5F


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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

There is an argument that if a clock is included it should at perform as well 
as we expect from other timepieces.

Of course the next step beyond a highly-accurate clock that does not require 
resetting is to have the K3S able to use that time, read frequencies and signal 
levels, modes, etc., and automatically log each contact through a built-in 
internet wi-fi or cel phone connection to the on-line logging site of our 
choice, either in real time or the next time the rig is in range.  

I just glance at my phone for the accurate time in UTC. 

73, Ron AC7AC

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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Mark via Elecraft]

Re:  "You know a radio must be pretty good when the complaints start drifting 
off to how accurate (or not) it is as a timepiece ;-)"

That is why I have never complained about it, and I only offered my experience 
with it as a data point.  I do, however, need to run controlled tests and spend 
some time with the schematics to better understand if voltage is a factor, or 
if something else is causing the differences in time swing.

In any case, I have been extremely pleased with my KX3 for over 3 years and I 
haven't spent much time investigating this yet, so it obviously isn't high on 
my priority list.  I usually use my cell phone for time so the KX3 display 
remains free for other things ( VFO B, batt, current, PA temp, etc.).

Mark
KE6BB
 Original message From: GRANT YOUNGMAN <ghyoung...@gmail.com> 
Date: 8/28/16  9:46 AM  (GMT-08:00) To: Elecraft Reflector Reflector 
<elecraft@mailman.qth.net> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift 

> 
> Re:  "...the clock seems to lose a couple of minutes per month.”
> 

You know a radio must be pretty good when the complaints start drifting off to 
how accurate (or not) it is as a timepiece ;-)

Grant NQ5T


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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Kevin]

Well that's it darn it!

I won't be happy with my radio till there's and actual cesium clock 
built in or available as an add on option. That'll make my JT65/JT9 
signals hyper accurate...Oh wait...that's the computer clock. I *demand* 
while Elecraft is fixing my radio's clock they also offer a fix for my 
computer clock. Oh wait...I'm already running Dimension 4 that adjusts 
my computer to NIST time every 15 minutes. There's the answer. I 
*demand* Elecraft make available as an option a motherboard, processor, 
and sufficient memory to run Windows 10 and D4 on my radio. Of course 
the video from said radio will need to be displayed directly on a P3.


Never mind. I can change the time on the radio manually every couple of 
months.


The above was sarcasm for those who just don't get it.


On 8/28/2016 11:46 AM, GRANT YOUNGMAN wrote:

Re:  "...the clock seems to lose a couple of minutes per month.”


You know a radio must be pretty good when the complaints start drifting off to 
how accurate (or not) it is as a timepiece ;-)

Grant NQ5T


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--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441



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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Clay Autery]

Never mind...  ;-)

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MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 8/28/2016 12:46 PM, Rose wrote:
>
> No need ... my eyes can view a cellphone as easily as on a radio's
> display ... maybe easier / quicker if I have to call it up into the 
> display.  (Mine has about a half inch high display.)
>
> That's assuming that the name of the game is simply knowing what time
> it is, as opposed to "playing" with a radio's features..
>
> 73
>
> K0PP
>

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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 Clock Drift

[Clay Autery]

Yes and no...  the utility will sync time with whatever computer/laptop
that is running the utility...  The accuracy of the computer is
independent of the utility.

This is what I am currently doing...  I have an NTP client running that
is keeping my laptop to within a few milliseconds
Periodically, I shut down Win4K3 Suite and crank up the K3 Utility, and
sync the time...

It's a bit fidgety...  don't always get a good sync...  So the radio is
never more accurate than the computer, and seldom matches the computer
on sync to less than 1/10th of a second or so best case...  luck of the
draw/random as to how close the sync ends up...

RIght now, not a big deal...  but on some of the digital modes, I am
given to understand that having the time sync pretty close is key to
function...


73,

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MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 8/28/2016 12:43 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
> Doesn’t the K3 Utility have a one-click process for setting the K3’s on-board 
> clock time to UTC Internet time?  It doesn’t make the clock any more 
> accurate, but it does offer a way of resetting without getting into the 
> configuration menu.  As I recall it’s in the KX3 Utility as well.
>
> Ted, KN1CBR
>
> --
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 08:34:22 -0600
> From: Ken G Kopp <kengk...@gmail.com>
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift
> Message-ID:
>   <cad4cdtmz9qgej0jpudrwo7kjoa8ik-tep-pq4oq3fb3fjeu...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Virtually everyone has cellphone at hand and it will provide the most
> accurate time commonly available.
> 
> 73!
> 
> K0PP
> 
>  
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Alan. G4GNX]

I can't see what all the fuss is about. I like my time to be very accurate - 
1 second in 10million years, so I wear a cheap radio controlled watch, which 
is accurate once a day, but isn't even inaccurate by one second until the 
next update. FWIW my friends expensive Rolex tracks with it very well too. 
:-)


I don't expect a radio of any sort to show that accuracy and I must admit to 
hardly ever checking the K3's time. It would only be important to me if I 
had to set alarms by it.


73,

Alan. G4GNX

-Original Message- 
From: Rose

Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 6:46 PM
To: Clay Autery ; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

No need ... my eyes can view a cellphone as easily as on a radio's display
... maybe easier / quicker if I have to call it up into the  display.
(Mine has about a half inch high display.)

That's assuming that the name of the game is simply knowing what time it
is, as opposed to "playing" with a radio's features..

73

K0PP 


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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift & On-Board GPS

[Clay Autery]

Jackson Labs makes REALLY nice stuff...  And THAT is not expensive in
the grand scheme of things...  LOTS of GPSDOs et al time/freq standards
costing many multiples of that price...  :)

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MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 8/28/2016 12:17 PM, Peter Pauly wrote:
> Flexradio offers a GPSDO option for their receivers. It's made by Jackson
> Labs (and it isn't cheap):
>
> http://cart.flexradio.com/FLEX-65006700-GPSDO-Upgrade_p_899.html
>
> It's internal to the radio.
>
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Phil Wheeler  wrote:
>
>> As a matter of curiosity because I've not looked into it: Are there any
>> ham transceivers with on-board GPS receivers?
>>
>> Phil W7OX
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Joe Stone (KF5WBO)]

Mike,

> The manufacturer specs for all the Elecraft RTC chips promise much better.

What Elecraft RTC chips are you referring to?  The KXBC3 keeps time using a
PIC microcontroller.

> ... a customer does indeed have every right to expect a competent RTC
> implementation when he purchases the option.  No???

I would say a customer has every right to see the schematic.  He/she can
then judge for him/herself whether the RTC implementation is competent,

http://www.elecraft.com/manual/KX3SchematicDiagramDec2012.pdf

Speaking of which  ... when can we expect to see the KX2 schematics?

73's

Joe
KF5WBO




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View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/KXBC3-clock-drift-tp7621866p7621901.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[David Anderson via Elecraft]

Funnily enough the IC-7300 guys were complaining about the same thing ;-)

73 from David GM4JJJ

> On 28 Aug 2016, at 17:46, GRANT YOUNGMAN  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> Re:  "...the clock seems to lose a couple of minutes per month.”
> 
> You know a radio must be pretty good when the complaints start drifting off 
> to how accurate (or not) it is as a timepiece ;-)
> 
> Grant NQ5T
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Rose]

No need ... my eyes can view a cellphone as easily as on a radio's display
... maybe easier / quicker if I have to call it up into the  display.
(Mine has about a half inch high display.)

That's assuming that the name of the game is simply knowing what time it
is, as opposed to "playing" with a radio's features..

73

K0PP

On Aug 28, 2016 11:03, "Clay Autery"  wrote:

> OK Ken...  How do you propose to get that "uber-accurate" time from the
> cell phone into the radio?
>
> __
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
>
> On 8/28/2016 9:34 AM, Ken G Kopp wrote:
> > Virtually everyone has cellphone at hand and it will provide the most
> > accurate time commonly available.
> >
> > 73!
> >
> > K0PP
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Phil Hystad]

Ditto!

Well, actually, I did once have an accurate (for its day) clock on my receiver, 
my HQ-170AC, back in or about 1964 to 1967.  Being run by a synchronous motor, 
the local power company had the job of keeping my clock accurate (feature of 
AGC controlling ACE and Frequency).

But, today, in my opinion of course, a clock on a radio is a feature that I 
would exchange for a half dozen or more other features better suited to using 
the radio itself.  Yes, there is a clock feature on my K3 and it is very 
thoroughly ignored by me.

73, phil, K7PEH


> On Aug 28, 2016, at 8:21 AM, Phil Wheeler  wrote:
> 
> I think you overreact a bit, Mike. I can criticize Elecraft with the best of 
> them if a product does not do as promised. But nowhere in any spec or promise 
> have I seen highly accurate time-keeping -- but perhaps my reading skills 
> fail me with age.
> 
> In my shack I have a large LaCrosse clock, updated nightly by WWVH or some 
> such: $35 or so on line. On my wrist I often wear a Casio wristwatch with 
> similar capabilities (NOT in that price range).
> 
> I prefer Elecraft to focus on what they do best, not capabilities I can 
> obtain elsewhere at very reasonable cost.
> 
> 73, Phil W7OX
> 
> On 8/28/16 7:55 AM, Mike Morrow wrote:
>> Elecraft fans often have a great tendency to dismiss without substantive 
>> basis any non-worshipful criticism...at least as far as I've observed in 16 
>> years as an owner and list member.  :-)
>> 
>> Mike / KK5F
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift & On-Board GPS

[Peter Pauly]

Flexradio offers a GPSDO option for their receivers. It's made by Jackson
Labs (and it isn't cheap):

http://cart.flexradio.com/FLEX-65006700-GPSDO-Upgrade_p_899.html

It's internal to the radio.

On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Phil Wheeler  wrote:

> As a matter of curiosity because I've not looked into it: Are there any
> ham transceivers with on-board GPS receivers?
>
> Phil W7OX
>
> On 8/28/16 9:58 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
>
>> So you think an onboard GPS is absurd, Don?
>>
>> We can dream...  we can dream.  :-)
>>
>> __
>> Clay Autery, KY5G
>> MONTAC Enterprises
>> (318) 518-1389
>>
>> On 8/28/2016 9:19 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>
>>> I would like an icebox in my KX3 to keep my sandwiches cool while
>>> portable.
>>> Oh, and how about an automatic coffee maker for use during contest
>>> periods. :-)
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>> On 8/28/2016 10:01 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
>>>
 Mmmm... not JUST the KX3!  >>> w/PPS INSIDE the K3s>

>>>
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift & On-Board GPS

[Phil Wheeler]

As a matter of curiosity because I've not looked 
into it: Are there any ham transceivers with 
on-board GPS receivers?


Phil W7OX

On 8/28/16 9:58 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

So you think an onboard GPS is absurd, Don?

We can dream...  we can dream.  :-)

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On 8/28/2016 9:19 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

I would like an icebox in my KX3 to keep my sandwiches cool while
portable.
Oh, and how about an automatic coffee maker for use during contest
periods. :-)

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/28/2016 10:01 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

Mmmm... not JUST the KX3!  


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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Clay Autery]

OK Ken...  How do you propose to get that "uber-accurate" time from the
cell phone into the radio?

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On 8/28/2016 9:34 AM, Ken G Kopp wrote:
> Virtually everyone has cellphone at hand and it will provide the most
> accurate time commonly available.
>
> 73!
>
> K0PP
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Clay Autery]

So you think an onboard GPS is absurd, Don?

We can dream...  we can dream.  :-)

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On 8/28/2016 9:19 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> I would like an icebox in my KX3 to keep my sandwiches cool while
> portable.
> Oh, and how about an automatic coffee maker for use during contest
> periods. :-)
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 8/28/2016 10:01 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> Mmmm... not JUST the KX3!  > w/PPS INSIDE the K3s>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[GRANT YOUNGMAN]

> 
> Re:  "...the clock seems to lose a couple of minutes per month.”
> 

You know a radio must be pretty good when the complaints start drifting off to 
how accurate (or not) it is as a timepiece ;-)

Grant NQ5T


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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Mark via Elecraft]

Re:  "...the clock seems to lose a couple of minutes per month."

I didn't buy the KXBC3 for the clock, and I don't expect it to automatically 
sync with WWV or GPS, but mine seems to be sensitive to applied voltage:

If I leave 14v applied to my KX3, it gains a few seconds per day, probably not 
far off what yours loses,  Erik.  If l remove the 14v supply and store the KX3 
in my day pack for a week or more, it will be an hour or more off next time I 
check it.  I can't remember if it gains or loses though.  I need to quantify 
that a bit better.

It works, but certainly isn't up to the level of performance we usually see 
from Elecraft.

Mark
KE6BB
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Phil Wheeler]

I think you overreact a bit, Mike. I can criticize 
Elecraft with the best of them if a product does 
not do as promised. But nowhere in any spec or 
promise have I seen highly accurate time-keeping 
-- but perhaps my reading skills fail me with age.


In my shack I have a large LaCrosse clock, updated 
nightly by WWVH or some such: $35 or so on line. 
On my wrist I often wear a Casio wristwatch with 
similar capabilities (NOT in that price range).


I prefer Elecraft to focus on what they do best, 
not capabilities I can obtain elsewhere at very 
reasonable cost.


73, Phil W7OX

On 8/28/16 7:55 AM, Mike Morrow wrote:

Elecraft fans often have a great tendency to dismiss without substantive basis 
any non-worshipful criticism...at least as far as I've observed in 16 years as 
an owner and list member.  :-)

Mike / KK5F


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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Ray Sills]

OTOH, many criticisms have resulted in improvements in the products.  Wayne and 
Eric are quite capable of tolerating criticism, so owners are more than welcome 
to point out any deficiency or problem.  That’s why people like Elecraft 
products: having the ear of the company.

73 de Ray
K2ULR
KX3 #211


> On Aug 28, 2016, at 11:06 AM, Wes Stewart  wrote:
> 
> QSL
> 
> On 8/28/2016 7:55 AM, Mike Morrow wrote:
>> Elecraft fans often have a great tendency to dismiss without substantive 
>> basis any non-worshipful criticism...at least as far as I've observed in 16 
>> years as an owner and list member. :-)
>> Mike / KK5F
>> __
>> 
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Wes Stewart]

QSL

On 8/28/2016 7:55 AM, Mike Morrow wrote:
Elecraft fans often have a great tendency to dismiss without substantive basis 
any non-worshipful criticism...at least as far as I've observed in 16 years as 
an owner and list member. :-)

Mike / KK5F
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Mike Morrow]

> I would like an icebox in my KX3 to keep my sandwiches cool while portable.
> Oh, and how about an automatic coffee maker for use during contest 
> periods. :-)

I would be suprised that even as a joke the listing above could win any 
arguments for the extraordinary lack of performance of Elecraft RTCs.  A $5 
watch does better by orders of magnitude...even the Dallas Semiconductor RTC in 
30-year-old Kantronics hardware does better.  The manufacturer specs for all 
the Elecraft RTC chips promise much better.  Unlike the items in the quoted 
listing, a customer does indeed have every right to expect a competent RTC 
implementation when he purchases the option.  No???

Elecraft fans often have a great tendency to dismiss without substantive basis 
any non-worshipful criticism...at least as far as I've observed in 16 years as 
an owner and list member.  :-)

Mike / KK5F
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Ken G Kopp]

Virtually everyone has cellphone at hand and it will provide the most
accurate time commonly available.

73!

K0PP
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Phil Wheeler]

Maybe just buy a $15 wristwatch with a 10 year 
battery made by Casio and set it every week or so 
? :-)


Phil W7OX

On 8/28/16 7:19 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
I would like an icebox in my KX3 to keep my 
sandwiches cool while portable.
Oh, and how about an automatic coffee maker for 
use during contest periods. :-)


73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/28/2016 10:01 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
Mmmm... not JUST the KX3!  thought of an ONBOARD GPSDO

w/PPS INSIDE the K3s>






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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Don Wilhelm]

I would like an icebox in my KX3 to keep my sandwiches cool while portable.
Oh, and how about an automatic coffee maker for use during contest 
periods. :-)


73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/28/2016 10:01 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

Mmmm... not JUST the KX3!  




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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Clay Autery]

Mmmm... not JUST the KX3!  

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On 8/28/2016 8:52 AM, kevino z wrote:
> Wish the KX3 had an actual GPS add on board. It could grab the time, as well 
> as use the PPS for other things.
> -Kevin (KK4YEL) 
>
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number 
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced !
>
>> On Aug 28, 2016, at 09:48, Brian Waterworth  
>> wrote:
>>
>> I have noticed the same thing.  I was portable and wanted to use the KX3
>> clock to set my Raspberry Pi's clock I was using for JT65.  I was shocked
>> at how far afield the KX3 time was.  I fortunately had downloaded a GPS app
>> to my smartphone that gave me the GPS system time and this was enough to
>> get me to within a second of the time that most other JT65 users were using
>> (as sync'ed from time services from the internet).
>>
>> I too would like to have Elecraft look into the clock drift.
>>
>> regards,
>> Brian
>> VE3IBW
>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 9:40 AM, E T  wrote:
>>>
>>> I’ve had my KX3 for a few months, got it with the KXBC3 charger and
>>> clock.  However, the clock seems to lose a couple of minutes per month.
>>> Considering the cost of the option I would expect it to be a little more
>>> reliable... :-P
>>>
>>> Has anyone else seen this?  Is there an adjustment for drift?
>>>
>>>  Thanks and 73,
>>>  Erik Tkal  -  W1QED
>>>
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[kevino z]

Wish the KX3 had an actual GPS add on board. It could grab the time, as well as 
use the PPS for other things.
-Kevin (KK4YEL) 

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of 
electrons were terribly inconvenienced !

> On Aug 28, 2016, at 09:48, Brian Waterworth  
> wrote:
> 
> I have noticed the same thing.  I was portable and wanted to use the KX3
> clock to set my Raspberry Pi's clock I was using for JT65.  I was shocked
> at how far afield the KX3 time was.  I fortunately had downloaded a GPS app
> to my smartphone that gave me the GPS system time and this was enough to
> get me to within a second of the time that most other JT65 users were using
> (as sync'ed from time services from the internet).
> 
> I too would like to have Elecraft look into the clock drift.
> 
> regards,
> Brian
> VE3IBW
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 9:40 AM, E T  wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve had my KX3 for a few months, got it with the KXBC3 charger and
>> clock.  However, the clock seems to lose a couple of minutes per month.
>> Considering the cost of the option I would expect it to be a little more
>> reliable... :-P
>> 
>> Has anyone else seen this?  Is there an adjustment for drift?
>> 
>>  Thanks and 73,
>>  Erik Tkal  -  W1QED
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

[Brian Waterworth]

I have noticed the same thing.  I was portable and wanted to use the KX3
clock to set my Raspberry Pi's clock I was using for JT65.  I was shocked
at how far afield the KX3 time was.  I fortunately had downloaded a GPS app
to my smartphone that gave me the GPS system time and this was enough to
get me to within a second of the time that most other JT65 users were using
(as sync'ed from time services from the internet).

I too would like to have Elecraft look into the clock drift.

regards,
Brian
VE3IBW

On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 9:40 AM, E T  wrote:

> I’ve had my KX3 for a few months, got it with the KXBC3 charger and
> clock.  However, the clock seems to lose a couple of minutes per month.
> Considering the cost of the option I would expect it to be a little more
> reliable... :-P
>
> Has anyone else seen this?  Is there an adjustment for drift?
>
>   Thanks and 73,
>   Erik Tkal  -  W1QED
>
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