RE: Metrics cost at 1991
Sorry about the HTML but this is an abstract from the book The Practical Guide to the Low Voltage Directive ISBN 0 7506 3745 5 Metrics come in all sizes - what does your management want to hear? How much we spend - how could have been save with better project management and design control - how much compliance cost? How much RD spend - How much compliance costs? (I believe that DELL commit 30% of RD to compliance) I wonder why? I wonder if their competitors would advertise the fact that We commit MUCH less than that - so buy our products. Does sell to me!!! But I have been called cynical by more that two people. LOOK at history for the TRUE cost of getting it wrong. These - hopefully explain the TRUE cost of 'keeping it right' and not just consider the cost of adding a few extra scraps of metal or fuses. Titanic ( faulty material) Challenger (Faulty gasket) Meteosat (the one with the dead French PSU that should have driven the down-link Tx) Herald of Free Enterprise (faulty 'safety' switch and operator error - drunk and asleep) GoodYear Tyres (jury still out) The problem with compliance is that the TANGIBLE COST is always evident - it is only when there is non-compliance that the intangible benefits become self evident. Please not the following abstract and the graphs. PLEASE remember that the cost indicated here are from 1991 data. However - if we are looking at OVERALL costs think also of a few of the high profile examples. COPYRIGHT Butterworth-Heinemann andGregg Kervill The Limitations of the guidance notes In addition to a detailed step by step guide to electrical safety, this book contains an Easy Guide. This provides simple, easy to follow steps that will result in a compliant product, at the same time reducing design effort, and simplifying safety compliance testing. The strength of these guidance notes is that they reduce development time and design changes, because by following the guidance it will remove many opportunities for designing a non-compliant product. The penalty for using only the Easy Guide may be that the unit cost is higher than a similar product designed following the Detailed Guidance notes. The Easy Guide is therefore particularly suited to the design of one-off equipment and low volume products Conversely, the Detailed Guidance Notes will be required for high volume, low margin products. They describe all aspects of the standard in depth allowing the designer to take advantage of low cost design options to minimise the unit cost of the final product. The penalty for using this approach is that greater knowledge of the standard and its interpretation is required and the cost of safety compliance verification can be significantly higher. Reducing costs and time to market It is surprising how few people appreciate that most of the whole life costs of a product are fixed early on during the initial design phase. The adjacent diagrams show the relative costs that can be set in stone even before the design reaches the manufacturing department. It is important for us all to be aware of the large amounts of money involved within our company and where it is committed. With this knowledge, it is a simple process to identify the departments and individuals where any company investment in training or resources have the most beneficial response. Remember that these ratios will depend upon the type of product, the volumes and manufacturing processes. But let us also consider the cost of a simple mistake - it has often been said that failing to plan in planning to fail and so in this book we shall acknowledge that we all are fallible - that we will make mistakes and accept that when they occur they form a significant source of additional costs and delay. This is an important consideration because if we know that there will be errors - then we know that to look for them is a good and positive thing to do. The cost of not getting it right has not been stated more clearly than during the October 1991 EuroPACE Quality Forum. Mr. Hiroshi Hamada, the President of Ricoh, gave the cost of fixing a single defect as: · $35 during the design phase · $177 before procurement · $368 before production · $17,000 before shipment · $690,000 on customer site From this it is simple example it is obvious that the earlier an error can be identified the more money a company will save. Figure ??? It also follows that - since time and money are related - that if defects are corrected early then it will take less time for a product to reach production - hence the time to market will be reduced. Spend VERSUS Committed Cost Personally, I believe that the most powerful way to identify where resources (time, money and material) are wasted is to consider the Spend during each phase in a project and to compare these to the Whole-Life costs that are committed during that phase. Figure??? The following figure
Re: Safety Critical etc - the future
I read in !emc-pstc that Doug McKean dmck...@corp.auspex.com wrote (in 001901c163c7$9e47ec80$3e3e3...@corp.auspex.com) about 'Safety Critical etc - the future', on Fri, 2 Nov 2001: John, Extremely valid question since we are it seems in the process of moving toward the world-wide concept of 'one test, one approval'. I would be very surprised if this very question has not been addresssed. If you are referring to my post, I plan to report that there is discussion here on the subject, and recount some of the points made. What we need is a very-widely accepted standard definition. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Vendor night
Hi All, I have attached a flyer for the Northeast Product Safety Society, 7th annual Vendors night, that will be held on the 15th of November this year. Looking forward to all of the New England local people to show up as well as any of our friends that might be in the area. Scott Barrows Vice President NPSS npssflyr.doc Description: MS-Word document
Re: Safety Critical etc - the future
Hi All, With the remarks about this topic needing to be discussed in IEC and industry committees as well as between professionals, I think it may be time to inject that there are local Product Safety Societies (or the IEEE versions) that were formed for this particular reason. Perhaps the Engineers that sit on these TAG and TC committees should join up and take an ACTIVE role in these groups. With their participation in local safety societies, the entire industry will be represented and can be considered to have a voice in the development of standards and the considerations therein. I am not so sure that the NRTL's and Notified bodies should have the only voice in this process. Scott Barrows NPSS geor...@lexmark.com wrote: John, Allow me to comment further on this issue. I seem to remember a saying that goes The proof of the pudding is in the eating. By the same token, I have always expressed within my area of influence that the truest test of our internal ITE safety policies, practices and processes is field history. We all know that standards, like many other sets of knowledge, evolve from errors over time. Another saying that makes this point is Success comes from experience. Experience comes from failure. Overall, I believe the ITE industry has a superb safety record, given the exponential growth of this industry from corporate uses to homes, dorm rooms, etc. Hundreds of people are killed or injured every day in the use of various products, e.g. vehicles, farm equipment, firearms (hunting accidents), aircraft, etc. The majority of these are due to operator error and/or poor judgement. The more complex products are the ones more likely to develop a defect that could lead to deaths, e.g. aircraft. In the eight plus years I have been in product safety, I am not aware of a reported serious injury or death from the intended use or misuse of an ITE product. This does not mean there have been none, but it does mean that ITE is not a significant cause of injury or death. This is a result of fairly sound standards, common sense, experience, and due diligence in maintaining the original certified design of each product. We probably all know of improvements we would make in this process if we got to be king for a day. Most of us handle these as internal requirements beyond the imposed external requirements. The way we define and account for the use of safety critical parts is one small aspect of a much more complex series of processes leading to protecting ITE users from harm. George Alspaugh These are personal opinions only. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Safety Critical etc - the future
John, Extremely valid question since we are it seems in the process of moving toward the world-wide concept of 'one test, one approval'. I would be very surprised if this very question has not been addresssed. Regards, Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: classification for part 18
Stuart, The scope of Part 18 is for a device that uses locally generated RF energy to perform some sort of work. See the definition of ISM in 47 CFR 18.107(c). If your product meets this definition then you must test to Part 18 to market in the US. If also thinking about the Canadian market, Canada's definition of ISM is similar to Europe's, not the US's (Note the subtle difference between and and or). See Industry Canada ICES-001. Others have mentioned the importance of other applicable standards such as 47 CFR 68 and UL 2601-1 (includes references to EMC), which your product probably falls under the scope of. Michael Peters -Original Message- From: Stuart Lopata [mailto:stu...@timcoengr.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:39 AM To: emc Subject: classification for part 18 Does a medical device that connects to a blood pressure unit and sends info over the phone lines need to be tested under part 18. I think not, however, it is a medical device. Please comment. Sincerely, Stuart Lopata --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Safety Critical etc - the future
John, Allow me to comment further on this issue. I seem to remember a saying that goes The proof of the pudding is in the eating. By the same token, I have always expressed within my area of influence that the truest test of our internal ITE safety policies, practices and processes is field history. We all know that standards, like many other sets of knowledge, evolve from errors over time. Another saying that makes this point is Success comes from experience. Experience comes from failure. Overall, I believe the ITE industry has a superb safety record, given the exponential growth of this industry from corporate uses to homes, dorm rooms, etc. Hundreds of people are killed or injured every day in the use of various products, e.g. vehicles, farm equipment, firearms (hunting accidents), aircraft, etc. The majority of these are due to operator error and/or poor judgement. The more complex products are the ones more likely to develop a defect that could lead to deaths, e.g. aircraft. In the eight plus years I have been in product safety, I am not aware of a reported serious injury or death from the intended use or misuse of an ITE product. This does not mean there have been none, but it does mean that ITE is not a significant cause of injury or death. This is a result of fairly sound standards, common sense, experience, and due diligence in maintaining the original certified design of each product. We probably all know of improvements we would make in this process if we got to be king for a day. Most of us handle these as internal requirements beyond the imposed external requirements. The way we define and account for the use of safety critical parts is one small aspect of a much more complex series of processes leading to protecting ITE users from harm. George Alspaugh These are personal opinions only. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: general product classification
Stuart, Go to the following link: http://www.cenelec.org/ click on Publications then click on: Information on the Links Between Products, Directives and Standards in the Electrotechnical Field For Europe, this sounds like the tool you want. It isn't free. But if this is your business, it would be a worthwhile investment. Unless things have changed in the past few months, ETSI standards can be downloaded for free from their website. Michael Peters -Original Message- From: Stuart Lopata [mailto:stu...@timcoengr.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 4:00 PM To: emc Subject: general product classification If I have product xyz (generic) how do I go about finding the relevant standards that it must comply with for EN-BS/IEC/ETSI (European)? Of course, simply by looking at the list of standards titles I can get somewhat of an idea if they are relevant. However, I cannot view their scope without buying the standard first. Any ideas? Sincerely, Stuart Lopata Rookie Compliance Engineer --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: EMC test table construction plans
We use a styrofoam table here at our lab, it is a round plug of styrofoam 80cm tall and 1m across. This has worked the best for us, and it has the least reflections at any frequency we can reliably test at. I would guess that some form of hard material on top of this type of table would support 200lBs. Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Pommerenke, David [mailto:davi...@ece.umr.edu] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 3:16 PM To: 'POWELL, DOUG'; EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: RE: EMC test table construction plans Doug, For emissions and immunity you should not use any wood in the table. It will significantly (+/-2 dB up to 1 GHz for emissions , more above, +/-10 dB for immunity up to 1 GHz) change the test result. My experience has shown that Styrofoam is basicly the best material. There are a couple of published papers on this issue. As surface material the following worked out fine: - Foamed PVC (rather stiff, low dielectric constant due to the foamed nature), maybe 4 mm thick. - PE sheet, maybe 2 mm thick. David Pommerenke -Original Message- From: POWELL, DOUG [mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:38 AM To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: EMC test table construction plans Hello all, I plan to construct my own insulated EMC test table for a 5 meter chamber. Seems simple enough to do and I could easily come up with something. I thought I might first ask for input from those of you in the discussion group who have experience or maybe even construction plans. Here are some features I want: 1) I will be testing products that weight up to 200 Lbs (91 kg). 2) I want to minimize metalic fastners. 3) I would like to make it a pivoting table (not motorized). 4) Height is 80 cm. 5) The surface should be replacable if it gets badly worn or scarred. I'm thinking of using hardboard. 6) Suggestions on length width? -doug --- Douglas E. Powell, Compliance Engineer Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. Mail stop: 203024 1626 Sharp Point Drive Ft. Collins, CO 80525 970.407.6410 (phone) 970-407.5410 (fax) mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com --- _ This message, including any attachments, may contain information that is confidential and proprietary information of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. The dissemination, distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its attachments is strictly prohibited without the express written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported
RE: EMC test table construction plans
In our OATS dome, we use a pair of large antistatic plastic Rubbermaid wheeled carts with a sheet of plywood laid across the tops. A tabletop host pc is set on that. How's that effecting the measurements? groaner Should these effects be part of the 'uncertainty'? Kyle Ehler KCØIQE mailto:kyle.eh...@lsil.com Assistant Design Engineer LSI Logic Storage Systems Div. 3718 N. Rock Road U.S.A. Wichita, Kansas 67226 Ph. 316 636 8657 Fax 316 636 8321 -Original Message- From: umbdenst...@sensormatic.com [mailto:umbdenst...@sensormatic.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 4:12 PM To: doug.pow...@aei.com; emc-p...@ieee.org; davi...@ece.umr.edu Subject: RE: EMC test table construction plans David, On a similar note I had heard that an EUT shelter might demonstrate a 6 dB variation between wet and dry conditions, or dirty vs. clean (pressure cleaned) condition. Did the papers comment on wood properties? Perhaps identifying soft wood vs. hard wood, minerals absorbed during growth, wet vs. dry, or other conditioning situations? I have only seen a handful of labs, but they all had wooden tables (defacto standard for the times -- past?). I wonder if the standards were written around the convention of wooden tables? You've raised an interesting issue. Best regards, Don Umbdenstock Sensormatic -- From: Pommerenke, David[SMTP:davi...@ece.umr.edu] Reply To: Pommerenke, David Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 4:15 PM To: 'POWELL, DOUG'; EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: RE: EMC test table construction plans Doug, For emissions and immunity you should not use any wood in the table. It will significantly (+/-2 dB up to 1 GHz for emissions , more above, +/-10 dB for immunity up to 1 GHz) change the test result. My experience has shown that Styrofoam is basicly the best material. There are a couple of published papers on this issue. As surface material the following worked out fine: - Foamed PVC (rather stiff, low dielectric constant due to the foamed nature), maybe 4 mm thick. - PE sheet, maybe 2 mm thick. David Pommerenke -Original Message- From: POWELL, DOUG [mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:38 AM To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: EMC test table construction plans Hello all, I plan to construct my own insulated EMC test table for a 5 meter chamber. Seems simple enough to do and I could easily come up with something. I thought I might first ask for input from those of you in the discussion group who have experience or maybe even construction plans. Here are some features I want: 1) I will be testing products that weight up to 200 Lbs (91 kg). 2) I want to minimize metalic fastners. 3) I would like to make it a pivoting table (not motorized). 4) Height is 80 cm. 5) The surface should be replacable if it gets badly worn or scarred. I'm thinking of using hardboard. 6) Suggestions on length width? -doug --- Douglas E. Powell, Compliance Engineer Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. Mail stop: 203024 1626 Sharp Point Drive Ft. Collins, CO 80525 970.407.6410 (phone) 970-407.5410 (fax) mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com ---
RE: EMC test table construction plans
From: Douglas Beckwith@MITEL on 11/02/2001 08:21 AM Sorry guys, finger trouble here with a mouse, didn't mean to send a reply. Regards Doug Beckwith --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: EMC test table construction plans
David, or anyone else, would you please site any papers that cover the error issue with emissions or immunity testing below 1 GHz? Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics -Original Message- From: Pommerenke, David [mailto:davi...@ece.umr.edu] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 4:16 PM To: 'POWELL, DOUG'; EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: RE: EMC test table construction plans Doug, For emissions and immunity you should not use any wood in the table. It will significantly (+/-2 dB up to 1 GHz for emissions , more above, +/-10 dB for immunity up to 1 GHz) change the test result. My experience has shown that Styrofoam is basicly the best material. There are a couple of published papers on this issue. As surface material the following worked out fine: - Foamed PVC (rather stiff, low dielectric constant due to the foamed nature), maybe 4 mm thick. - PE sheet, maybe 2 mm thick. David Pommerenke -Original Message- From: POWELL, DOUG [mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:38 AM To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: EMC test table construction plans Hello all, I plan to construct my own insulated EMC test table for a 5 meter chamber. Seems simple enough to do and I could easily come up with something. I thought I might first ask for input from those of you in the discussion group who have experience or maybe even construction plans. Here are some features I want: 1) I will be testing products that weight up to 200 Lbs (91 kg). 2) I want to minimize metalic fastners. 3) I would like to make it a pivoting table (not motorized). 4) Height is 80 cm. 5) The surface should be replacable if it gets badly worn or scarred. I'm thinking of using hardboard. 6) Suggestions on length width? -doug --- Douglas E. Powell, Compliance Engineer Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. Mail stop: 203024 1626 Sharp Point Drive Ft. Collins, CO 80525 970.407.6410 (phone) 970-407.5410 (fax) mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com --- _ This message, including any attachments, may contain information that is confidential and proprietary information of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. The dissemination, distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its attachments is strictly prohibited without the express written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: EMC test table construction plans
John, You are arguing Should the test conditions not reflect the actual environment in use of the product, rather than employ these unusual materials? The problem is that we do not know the actual conditions. So we need to define the test conditions. If everyone use be using the SAME wooden table, it would be fine. But that is not the case and there are large variations between different wooden tables, surface materials etc. So if one uses a wooden table, its influence must be taken into the uncertainty calculation. This adds a few more dBs, much more above 1 GHz. In radiated immunity it is even worse, as there is no maximization done. David Pommerenke -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:34 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: EMC test table construction plans I read in !emc-pstc that Pommerenke, David davi...@ece.umr.edu wrote (in 9da8d24b915bd1118911006094516eaf0ba31...@umr-mail02.cc.umr.edu) about 'EMC test table construction plans', on Thu, 1 Nov 2001: For emissions and immunity you should not use any wood in the table. It will significantly (+/-2 dB up to 1 GHz for emissions , more above, +/-10 dB for immunity up to 1 GHz) change the test result. My experience has shown that Styrofoam is basicly the best material. You mean that it gives the worst-case results? There are a couple of published papers on this issue. As surface material the following worked out fine: - Foamed PVC (rather stiff, low dielectric constant due to the foamed nature), maybe 4 mm thick. - PE sheet, maybe 2 mm thick. Should the test conditions not reflect the actual environment in use of the product, rather than employ these unusual materials? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Low Frequency Conducted Immunity....
Thank you to all who have responded to my LFC immunity issue. Your help is much appreciated. Regards, Scott Mee EMC Engineer Johnson Controls Inc. PH: 616.394.2565 EMAIL: scott@jci.com +++ Hello Group, I am working with and electronic device which contains and audio output. During a low frequency conducted immunity test, a tone can be heard at the output of the audio section with a frequency equal to that of the test frequency. The test starts at the lower end of the audio spectrum [~400Hz] and progresses over time up to the top end of the audio spectrum [~30kHz]. I would like to be able to filter the conducted noise from getting into my electronic device. This is an automotive application, so if I am unsuccessful alternator noise may also be heard in my audio signal during normal operation in the vehicle. I have tried a few things to reduce the amount of noise such as: 1. LC filter with a cutoff at 1kHz 2. Series inductance [large amounts ~ 3mH] 3. Various common mode choke types, each with different core materials [ie. iron core, ferrite core, etc] #1 helped some, but is not effective enough, #2 was very successful, but the size of the choke would be enormous and not practical in this application, #3 was not effective Can anyone suggest an improvement upon the three methods above, or suggest something different? I would like to implement something on the board itself if possible, but modification to the harness may be possible if necessary. Thank you in advance for any help! Regards, Scott Mee EMC Engineer Johnson Controls Inc. PH: 616.394.2565 EMAIL: scott@jci.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: EMC test table construction plans
Doug, You might want to look at a paper that was presented at the Montreal IEEE EMC Symposium by HP on measurements that they made on a table when starting to test above 1 GHz. As you know, the FCC (ANSI C63.4) and CISPR 22 requirements simply call out that the table should be non-conducting. That's about all that is said. Measurements made by HP in Vancouver, WA show that this might just be an inadequate specification for the table due to reflections from the table/air boundary. Their table was wood with no metal fasteners of any kind, with a plastic sheet on the top. It meets the non-conducting requirement, but demonstrated that this minimal standard is inadequate to ensure accurate and repeatable results. I am certain that the results of their tests will cause some interesting discussions in various standards bodies over the next few years. That said, a wood or fiberglass table should meet your needs quite nicely. I've seen a number of construction techniques over the years that have all had minimal metal content (our tables have two swivel casters under the legs at one end and metal axels for the wheels at the other end as their total metal content). These range from all wood, to PCV pipe frame with a wood top to fiberglass construction. All are sturdy enough to hold 200 pounds and all are non-conductive. I'm not sure what to suggest for your swivel mount, but I have seen turntables built with a single metal pivot in the middle with a race of pool balls used for ball bearings further out on the table. Quick, simple and elegant. Non-conductive, except for the pivot in the middle. Good luck and have fun. Based on HP's paper, I suspect that a lot of us will be building new tables of a yet to be determined material in the next few years. Should make for some interesting conversations. Ghery Pettit Intel -Original Message- From: POWELL, DOUG [mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 9:38 AM To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: EMC test table construction plans Hello all, I plan to construct my own insulated EMC test table for a 5 meter chamber. Seems simple enough to do and I could easily come up with something. I thought I might first ask for input from those of you in the discussion group who have experience or maybe even construction plans. Here are some features I want: 1) I will be testing products that weight up to 200 Lbs (91 kg). 2) I want to minimize metalic fastners. 3) I would like to make it a pivoting table (not motorized). 4) Height is 80 cm. 5) The surface should be replacable if it gets badly worn or scarred. I'm thinking of using hardboard. 6) Suggestions on length width? -doug --- Douglas E. Powell, Compliance Engineer Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. Mail stop: 203024 1626 Sharp Point Drive Ft. Collins, CO 80525 970.407.6410 (phone) 970-407.5410 (fax) mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com --- _ This message, including any attachments, may contain information that is confidential and proprietary information of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. The dissemination, distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its attachments is strictly prohibited without the express written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product
Re: EMC test table construction plans
John, Your point is well taken with regard to testing a unit while closely matching the testing environment to the environment it will be used in. However, we don't sell a lot of equipment to people who have 40 meters of ground plane, either. It is my understanding a reasonable false environment is an attempt to control the testing environment and obtain repeatable results. Controlling the table material so it does not appreciably affect the outcome of the test seems to be consistent with that goal. - Robert - Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com 408 286 3985 fx 408 297 9121 AJM International Electronics Consultants 619 North First St, San Jose, CA 95112 -Original Message- From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:30 AM Subject: Re: EMC test table construction plans I read in !emc-pstc that Pommerenke, David davi...@ece.umr.edu wrote (in 9da8d24b915bd1118911006094516eaf0ba31...@umr-mail02.cc.umr.edu) about 'EMC test table construction plans', on Thu, 1 Nov 2001: For emissions and immunity you should not use any wood in the table. It will significantly (+/-2 dB up to 1 GHz for emissions , more above, +/-10 dB for immunity up to 1 GHz) change the test result. My experience has shown that Styrofoam is basicly the best material. You mean that it gives the worst-case results? There are a couple of published papers on this issue. As surface material the following worked out fine: - Foamed PVC (rather stiff, low dielectric constant due to the foamed nature), maybe 4 mm thick. - PE sheet, maybe 2 mm thick. Should the test conditions not reflect the actual environment in use of the product, rather than employ these unusual materials? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Safety Critical etc - the future
I read in !emc-pstc that Allen, John john.al...@uk.thalesgroup.com wrote (in 999c839e7e27d41185ec00d0b7473692024cd...@norway.int.rdel.co.u k) about 'Safety Critical etc - the future', on Fri, 2 Nov 2001: I know that some of the forum participants operate in these areas, and thus ask them how we should proceed from here? I will raise the question at a meeting of what will be IEC TC108/WG2 in London later this month. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Safety Critical etc - the future
Hi Folks We have now had this discussion and it brought out a number of useful and enlightening points, and Lauren's and Rich's summaries of the various inputs are both interesting and thought-provoking. However, I now come back to a point that I made in one of my earlier messages: Where do we go from here? For most people participating in this forum, I suspect that the major contact that they have with any concept of component- criticality is in respect of simple standards (e.g. standards mandated under the LVD/EMC/RTTE or other national equivalents) compliance for a single item of equipment. Their major issue will, I guess, be the attitudes taken by the various product test and certification authorities that they deal with because those organisations directly influence what the product design and manufacturing companies need to reflect in their internal documentation and processes. Therefore, the test and certification authorities need to jointly decide and declare the following: a) The methods and criteria for identification, selection and listing of critical components for both product standards compliance and system safety compliance b) The terms they wish to use for the various aspects of criticality. Personal Comment: I think that safety critical component is fine in the system safety context - and that is how it is already referenced in many risk-assessment standards and guidance documents. However, I am not so sure/happy about Rich's suggestion of safeguard as I think that it is similar to the term safety critical in the system-safety context but will sound rather vague to many non-knowledgable people (and is not very appropriate in the context of product standards compliance). Nevertheless it seems to me that this subject does need to be debated at a very high level (of knowledgable people!)within the IEC (notably the CB Certification organisation, CENELEC and the US/Canadian NRTL organisations with the object of reaching some mutually agreed methodologies. (Once they reach some decisions, most other organisations will follow!) I know that some of the forum participants operate in these areas, and thus ask them how we should proceed from here? This will be a long process - but I think it is essential to kick it off ASAP. Over to you guys! Regards John Allen Thales Defence Communications Division (for the moment!!) Bracknell, UK --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: EMC test table construction plans
I read in !emc-pstc that Pommerenke, David davi...@ece.umr.edu wrote (in 9da8d24b915bd1118911006094516eaf0ba31...@umr-mail02.cc.umr.edu) about 'EMC test table construction plans', on Thu, 1 Nov 2001: For emissions and immunity you should not use any wood in the table. It will significantly (+/-2 dB up to 1 GHz for emissions , more above, +/-10 dB for immunity up to 1 GHz) change the test result. My experience has shown that Styrofoam is basicly the best material. You mean that it gives the worst-case results? There are a couple of published papers on this issue. As surface material the following worked out fine: - Foamed PVC (rather stiff, low dielectric constant due to the foamed nature), maybe 4 mm thick. - PE sheet, maybe 2 mm thick. Should the test conditions not reflect the actual environment in use of the product, rather than employ these unusual materials? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: classification for part 18
Stuart, For the telecoms part, the unit must pass FCC Part 68 and for safety, the relevant requirements of equipment connected to the telecommunication network in the UL60950 Standard for Safety of Information Technology Equipment. The latter is in addition to the safety requirements for the device covered underv the Standard for Medical Equipment, UL2601-1. This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate, distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment in any way. If you received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the message and its attachments to the sender. PETER S. MERGUERIAN Technical Director I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd. 26 Hacharoshet St., POB 211 Or Yehuda 60251, Israel Tel: + 972-(0)3-5339022 Fax: + 972-(0)3-5339019 Mobile: + 972-(0)54-838175 -Original Message- From: Stuart Lopata [mailto:stu...@timcoengr.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 6:39 PM To: emc Subject: classification for part 18 Does a medical device that connects to a blood pressure unit and sends info over the phone lines need to be tested under part 18. I think not, however, it is a medical device. Please comment. Sincerely, Stuart Lopata --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: general product classification
I read in !emc-pstc that Stuart Lopata stu...@timcoengr.com wrote (in nfbbieghilgeclalhjnamejecaaa.stu...@timcoengr.com) about 'general product classification', on Thu, 1 Nov 2001: If I have product xyz (generic) how do I go about finding the relevant standards that it must comply with for EN-BS/IEC/ETSI (European)? Of course, simply by looking at the list of standards titles I can get somewhat of an idea if they are relevant. However, I cannot view their scope without buying the standard first. Any ideas? You ask here, giving as much detail about the product as you can. 'Detail' means: What type of product is it? Is it a high-volume product sold to the general public? What is the current consumption at what voltage? Single or 3-phase power? Where is it to be marketed? Does it use intentional r.f. emission? There is a move to making Scope clauses available on-line, but not yet! -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
