Re: fan question
Jim, You have answered your own point. It doesn't matter if you raise the bar by one notch or ten, at the end of the day you are still talking about liability REDUCTION when it comes to meeting product safety standards. As you say, shxx happens. Agreed, and this is one reason why reputable manufacturers who test and certify their products occasionally have to recall them. Raising the severity of requirements in standards could well provide a small additional benefit in risk reduction, but if that caused a tenfold increase in the product cost would there be broad acceptance that the standards writers had got the balance right? If shxx were to happen to you, I suspect you would want to have the possibility of going to court to obtain remedy which compensated you for your loss or injury. I doubt that being told that you cannot make a claim because the product complies with some standard or other would seem satisfactory. Hence, in both the USA and Europe, we have what is known as 'strict liability' where the required proof is that product 'x' did 'y' and this resulted in personal injury/loss/damage 'z' and so the producer of product 'x' needs to pay damages. It may well be that compliance with one or more standards will be seen as a mitigating factor, but it is not a route to case dismissal (rather the opposite is likely to be the case, i.e. if you don't meet the applicable standards then this could be seen as an example of malpractice and you would incur punitive damages as a result). Just some more food for thought. Richard Hughes Safety Answers Limited In a message dated 19/09/2003 18:39:27 GMT Standard Time, jim.eich...@xantrex.com writes: I'm not sure I like the idea that what's good enough for a published and adopted standard is not good enough for the courts. It seems to me, if that's the case, that the standards writing bodies had better raise the bar a notch. If safety approvals are to add value beyond mere market access, ie liability reduction, then they need to be considered adequate by the courts. Of course the courts are always going to find someone to blame, regardless of safety standards, fault assessments, warnings and instructions, etc. There is no such thing as oh well, shxx happens in liability court. Jim Eichner, P.Eng. Compliance Engineering Manager
Re: 100 Base-T Hub
Kevin, I can't name a vendor, but I will try to help with some advices. Probably all Ethernet hubs will show susceptibility during EFT, in which some data packets will be lost. The EFT happens to have large spectral amplitudes right in the middle of the 100 Base-T Ethernet signal (theoretically, up to 62.5 MHz, but the sensitivity and spectral content practically goes higher, since the front-ends may be open (bandwidth) much wider that 62.5 MHz. The good ones will not drop link though. Often, SmartBits or similar traffic generators are used for this test. Regardless of whether they are connected directly to DUT or indiractly through a hub, they often cause susceptibility in the test system - be careful if you use them. A better approach is writing your own SW routine for exercising and monitoring traffic, and if possible testing two of the same kind DUTs connected and talking to each other. Then, it doesn't matter which one fails. From my past at Cisco, I remember designing SOHO routers (7xx, 8xx and 16xx family), some of which had 10 Mbit hubs or one-port 10/100 Base-T. At that time, we made sure they worked with 1 kV EFT on I/O and 2 kV EFT on the AC mains (data drop was allowd, but not a link drop). I am not sure if they still adhere to that standard, and if the have 10/100 hubs available now. I would recommend checking some of the well-established manufacturers, who typically have EMC design and test personnel and facilities and spend more effort for quality of the EMC design. Neven Good Members, I'm having some issues getting together a decent test set up for immunity testing when I have a network connection at 100 Base -T. I've had several hubs in the lab but I can't get one to even pass level 1 EFT testing ( for CE EMC testing) . Would any of you be able to recommend a hub (100 Base T) with a decent immunity tolerance. I'd love to get something immune at industrial levels but at this point I would settle for just passing generic levels Thanks Best Regards, Kevin Harris Manager, Approvals and CAD Services Digital Security Controls 3301 Langstaff Road Concord, Ontario CANADA L4K 4L2 Tel: +1 905 760 3000 Ext. 2378 Fax +1 905 760 3020 Email: kevinharr...@dsc.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Load Cells for Radiated Susceptibility Testing
Goto http://www.vishay.com/load-cells/ Vishay has pretty much bought everyone that makes load cells. Tedea Huntleigh is the most well known. As far as using them in a harsh environment, the signals are differential with shielded cables. I know they work quite well up to 10 or 20V/m, but I don't have experience with them above that. I'd be interested to hear more. From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Donnelly, Thomas Sent: Monday, 22 September, 2003 12:56 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: Load Cells for Radiated Susceptibility Testing Group, I have an application where I need to load an actuator, and monitor the load, during EMI testing. I have to meet DO-160D, and MIL-STD-461E, which will include 200 V/m Radiated Susceptibility. Has anyone had experience using load cells in this environment? Any suggestions on vendors? Thanks, Tom Donnelly Smiths Aerospace Actuation Systems tdonnelly@act-sys This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: GFI Question Follow-up
John, In my case, there does not seem to be any connection. While we have had high humidity and temperatures outside, there has not been anything much over 85 degrees and/or 80% inside. The last episode of trips was around 68 degrees and 60%. Scott John Woodgate wrote: I read in !emc-pstc that Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ptcnh.net sdoug...@ptcnh.net wrote (in mailto:3f6f2d9e.5070...@ptcnh.net 3f6f2d9e.5070...@ptcnh.net) about 'GFI Question Follow-up' on Mon, 22 Sep 2003: When I went to experiment, the shredder had not been tripping the GFI. I gave up and about a week later it tripped 3 times in a row. Is there any connection between tripping and dampness or extreme temperature? These intermittent faults that occur in groups are often due to environmental effects.
100 Base-T Hub
Good Members, I'm having some issues getting together a decent test set up for immunity testing when I have a network connection at 100 Base -T. I've had several hubs in the lab but I can't get one to even pass level 1 EFT testing ( for CE EMC testing) . Would any of you be able to recommend a hub (100 Base T) with a decent immunity tolerance. I'd love to get something immune at industrial levels but at this point I would settle for just passing generic levels Thanks Best Regards, Kevin Harris Manager, Approvals and CAD Services Digital Security Controls 3301 Langstaff Road Concord, Ontario CANADA L4K 4L2 Tel: +1 905 760 3000 Ext. 2378 Fax +1 905 760 3020 Email: kevinharr...@dsc.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Load Cells for Radiated Susceptibility Testing
In a message dated 9/22/2003 1:10:21 PM Central Daylight Time, tdonne...@act-sys.com writes: Group, I have an application where I need to load an actuator, and monitor the load, during EMI testing. I have to meet DO-160D, and MIL-STD-461E, which will include 200 V/m Radiated Susceptibility. Has anyone had experience using load cells in this environment? Any suggestions on vendors? Thanks, Tom Donnelly Smiths Aerospace Actuation Systems tdonnelly@act-sys Hi Tim, I do this all the time, Ironically, for Smiths also. I have three ways I do this, one is using spring fixtures, one using Gravity, and the third is using Hydraulic loading. Since some of this may be commercially sensitive, why don't we discus off line... Cheers, Derek. Derek N. Walton Owner, L F Research EMI Design and Test Facility Poplar Grove, IL 61065
Re: GFI Question Follow-up
I read in !emc-pstc that Scott Douglas sdoug...@ptcnh.net wrote (in 3f6f2d9e.5070...@ptcnh.net) about 'GFI Question Follow-up' on Mon, 22 Sep 2003: When I went to experiment, the shredder had not been tripping the GFI. I gave up and about a week later it tripped 3 times in a row. Is there any connection between tripping and dampness or extreme temperature? These intermittent faults that occur in groups are often due to environmental effects. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Arcing Sparking
-Original Message- From: Ralph McDiarmid [ mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@xantrex.com] Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 11:12 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Arcing Sparking I suggest that an arc is something continuous and producing light or illumination. A spark is something abrupt and short lived. Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc. I think that the main difference between an electrical arc and an electrical spark is the sense of time. An Arc is a Spark that decided to park. Ed Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Technician Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty
Re: Arcing Sparking
I read in !emc-pstc that Peter L. Tarver peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com
wrote (in nebbkemlgllmjofmopleoehhelaa.peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com)
about 'Arcing Sparking' on Mon, 22 Sep 2003:
I have always related arcing to having end-points: having at least two
electrodes and involving electrical conduction.
Arc \Arc\ ([aum]rk), v. i. [imp. p. p. {Arcked} ([aum]rkt); p. pr.
vb. n. {Arcking}.] (Elec.) To form a voltaic arc, as an electrical
current in a broken or disconnected circuit.
Sparking, I have always related to high temperature ejecta which may or
may not be related to electrical conduction.
Spark \Spark\, v. i. (Elec.) To produce, or give off, sparks, as a
dynamo at the commutator when revolving under the collecting brushes.
Spark \Spark\, n. [OE. sparke, AS. spearca; akin to D. spark, sperk; cf.
Icel. spraka to crackle, Lith. sprag[e]ti, Gr. ? a bursting with a
noise, Skr. sph?rj to crackle, to thunder. Cf. {Speak}.] 1. A small
particle of fire or ignited substance which is emitted by a body in
combustion.
Yes. An arc that persists is a 'sustained arc'. It needs a control
mechanism to sustain it.
When the spark speaks, the arc harks.(;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!
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RE: Arcing Sparking
My understanding is that a spark is the result of an electric discharge through ionized air. An arc actually contains vaporized metal from the contacts and has phenomena like flash and blast that are not associated with sparks. Best regards, Brian Epstein Sr Regulatory Compliance Engineer Veeco Instruments 112 Robin Hill Rd Santa Barbara CA 93117 805-967-2700 x2315 brian.epst...@veeco.com mailto:brian.epst...@veeco.com From: Speakman, Jim [mailto:jim.speak...@uk.thalesgroup.com] Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:32 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Arcing Sparking Fellow Listers At a recent equipment design review, a discussion on arcing and sparking indicated a lack of definitive knowledge of the difference between an 'arc' and a 'spark'. Is an 'arc', basically just a long 'spark'. If so, at what point (precisely) does a 'spark' become an 'arc'? Have I got it all wrong? Are they 'something else'. Can anyone enlighten my darkness? __ Jim Speakman (Design Safety Representative (Southern Sites) Thales Defence Ltd Thales Sensors Manor Royal Crawley West Sussex RH10 9PZ * Tel:+44(0)1293 644911 * Mob:+44(0)7968 529439 * Fax : +44(0)1293 644194 *e-mail jim.speak...@uk.thalesgroup.com __ This e-mail contains confidential information for the addressee only. If a transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify us on +44(0)1293 644911 and delete it and all copies from your system. You should not use, disclose, distribute or copy this communication if received in error. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Arcing Sparking
Essentially, an arc is sustainable and a spark is not. A spark is the onset of an arc. Whether it becomes sustainable or not, has to do with the supply of charges and electric field potential. An arc, once formed, becomes very low in resistance and impedance akin to a metal conductor. The forming process of an arc includes a transition phase where in the formative phase, the dendrite type corona discharges begin to colapse into a single channel due to the collective magnetic fields. This self-induced magnetic field is large enough to contain it from expanding radially. Hans Mellberg Engineering Manager BACL 230 Commercial Street Sunnyvale CA 94085 USA 408-732-9162 x38 408-732-9164 fax - Original Message - From: Speakman, Jim jim.speak...@uk.thalesgroup.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:32 AM Subject: Arcing Sparking Fellow Listers At a recent equipment design review, a discussion on arcing and sparking indicated a lack of definitive knowledge of the difference between an 'arc' and a 'spark'. Is an 'arc', basically just a long 'spark'. If so, at what point (precisely) does a 'spark' become an 'arc'? Have I got it all wrong? Are they 'something else'. Can anyone enlighten my darkness? __ Jim Speakman (Design Safety Representative (Southern Sites) Thales Defence Ltd Thales Sensors Manor Royal Crawley West Sussex RH10 9PZ * Tel: +44(0)1293 644911 * Mob: +44(0)7968 529439 * Fax : +44(0)1293 644194 *e-mail jim.speak...@uk.thalesgroup.com __ This e-mail contains confidential information for the addressee only. If a transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify us on +44(0)1293 644911 and delete it and all copies from your system. You should not use, disclose, distribute or copy this communication if received in error. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Arcing Sparking
I suggest that an arc is something continuous and producing light or illumination. A spark is something abrupt and short lived. Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc. From: Speakman, Jim [mailto:jim.speak...@uk.thalesgroup.com] Sent: September 22, 2003 8:32 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Arcing Sparking Fellow Listers At a recent equipment design review, a discussion on arcing and sparking indicated a lack of definitive knowledge of the difference between an 'arc' and a 'spark'. Is an 'arc', basically just a long 'spark'. If so, at what point (precisely) does a 'spark' become an 'arc'? Have I got it all wrong? Are they 'something else'. Can anyone enlighten my darkness? __ Jim Speakman (Design Safety Representative (Southern Sites) Thales Defence Ltd Thales Sensors Manor Royal Crawley West Sussex RH10 9PZ * Tel:+44(0)1293 644911 * Mob:+44(0)7968 529439 * Fax : +44(0)1293 644194 *e-mail jim.speak...@uk.thalesgroup.com __ This e-mail contains confidential information for the addressee only. If a transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify us on +44(0)1293 644911 and delete it and all copies from your system. You +should not use, disclose, distribute or copy this communication if received in error. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Arcing Sparking
I have always related arcing to having end-points: having at
least two electrodes and involving electrical conduction.
Arc \Arc\ ([aum]rk), v. i. [imp. p. p. {Arcked}
([aum]rkt); p. pr. vb. n. {Arcking}.] (Elec.) To form a
voltaic arc, as an electrical current in a broken or
disconnected circuit.
Sparking, I have always related to high temperature ejecta
which may or may not be related to electrical conduction.
Spark \Spark\, v. i. (Elec.) To produce, or give off,
sparks, as a dynamo at the commutator when revolving under
the collecting brushes.
Spark \Spark\, n. [OE. sparke, AS. spearca; akin to D.
spark, sperk; cf. Icel. spraka to crackle, Lith.
sprag[e]ti, Gr. ? a bursting with a noise, Skr. sph?rj to
crackle, to thunder. Cf. {Speak}.] 1. A small particle of
fire or ignited substance which is emitted by a body in
combustion.
Regards,
Peter L. Tarver, PE
Product Safety Manager
Homologation Services
Sanmina-SCI Corp.
San Jose, CA
peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com
From: Fred Townsend
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 9:09 AM
I have never seen a really definitive statement
about arcs and sparks however I
tend to think of sparks as transient ( as in
spark plugs) and arcs as sustained
(as in arc lamps). Does that make sense?
Fred Townsend
Speakman, Jim wrote:
At a recent equipment design review, a
discussion on arcing and sparking
indicated a lack of definitive knowledge of the
difference between an 'arc'
and a 'spark'.
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Load Cells for Radiated Susceptibility Testing
Group, I have an application where I need to load an actuator, and monitor the load, during EMI testing. I have to meet DO-160D, and MIL-STD-461E, which will include 200 V/m Radiated Susceptibility. Has anyone had experience using load cells in this environment? Any suggestions on vendors? Thanks, Tom Donnelly Smiths Aerospace Actuation Systems tdonnelly@act-sys This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Arcing Sparking
This is totally my interpretation, not meant to be be authoritative. To me a spark is an incandescent piece of matter, which can be incandescent for any number of reasons, including but hardly limited to electrical - I have a curtain in front of my fireplace to keep sparks from flying out and igniting the rug. But an arc is struck between two points of different electrical potential, when the gradient is sufficient to strip electrons off atoms between the two points and sufficient current flows to cause incandescence. From: Speakman, Jim jim.speak...@uk.thalesgroup.com Reply-To: Speakman, Jim jim.speak...@uk.thalesgroup.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:32:09 +0100 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Arcing Sparking Fellow Listers At a recent equipment design review, a discussion on arcing and sparking indicated a lack of definitive knowledge of the difference between an 'arc' and a 'spark'. Is an 'arc', basically just a long 'spark'. If so, at what point (precisely) does a 'spark' become an 'arc'? Have I got it all wrong? Are they 'something else'. Can anyone enlighten my darkness? __ Jim Speakman (Design Safety Representative (Southern Sites) Thales Defence Ltd Thales Sensors Manor Royal Crawley West Sussex RH10 9PZ * Tel:+44(0)1293 644911 * Mob:+44(0)7968 529439 * Fax :+44(0)1293 644194 *e-mailjim.speak...@uk.thalesgroup.com __ This e-mail contains confidential information for the addressee only. If a transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify us on +44(0)1293 644911 and delete it and all copies from your system. You should not use, disclose, distribute or copy this communication if received in error. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
An Arc or A Spark?
Fellow Listees, According to Merriam-Webster Online: An arc is a sustained luminous discharge of electricity across a gap in a circuit or between electrodes whereas A spark is a luminous disruptive electrical discharge of very short duration between two conductors separated by a gas (as air) Scott Douglas Email: sdoug...@ptcnh.net This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
GFI Question Follow-up
Hello Group, A follow-up to my question why does my paper shredder trip the GFI outlet. I received 7 responses to my original note. For that I thank you all. The consensus seemed to indicate the shredder is noisy and probably on the hairy edge of fault current. And, that adding some line cord length or re-arranging (re-routing) the cord may help. When I went to experiment, the shredder had not been tripping the GFI. I gave up and about a week later it tripped 3 times in a row. Since then I have added an 8 foot long extension cord between the shredder and the far outlet. The shredder still sits in its original location directly in front of the GFI outlet. Now that I look at it, this is a dumb test. So just now I moved the extension cord from the far outlet and connected it directly to the GFI outlet. All the extra cord is tucked between the shredder and the walls (in a corner). Now I'll have to wait a week or two to see if it trips again. Once again, thank you all for your comments. Scott Douglas Email: sdoug...@ptcnh.net This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Arcing Sparking
I have never seen a really definitive statement about arcs and sparks however I tend to think of sparks as transient ( as in spark plugs) and arcs as sustained (as in arc lamps). Does that make sense? Fred Townsend Speakman, Jim wrote: Fellow Listers At a recent equipment design review, a discussion on arcing and sparking indicated a lack of definitive knowledge of the difference between an 'arc' and a 'spark'. Is an 'arc', basically just a long 'spark'. If so, at what point (precisely) does a 'spark' become an 'arc'? Have I got it all wrong? Are they 'something else'. Can anyone enlighten my darkness? __ Jim Speakman (Design Safety Representative (Southern Sites) Thales Defence Ltd Thales Sensors Manor Royal Crawley West Sussex RH10 9PZ * Tel:+44(0)1293 644911 * Mob:+44(0)7968 529439 * Fax : +44(0)1293 644194 *e-mail jim.speak...@uk.thalesgroup.com __ This e-mail contains confidential information for the addressee only. If a transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify us on +44(0)1293 644911 and delete it and all copies from your system. You should not use, disclose, distribute or copy this communication if received in error. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: More profound than a joke
Vic Gibling wrote Was the man matching the assistants humour/sarcasms? OR Was he ignoring the warnings, it's not going to happen to him? OR Was he making a rational risk assessment based on the information provided by the manufacturer? I'm in California. I sometimes hear an anti-smoking radio commercial -- it may air elsewhere, too -- which has a man calling a tobacco help desk. He complains because he was supposed to get lung cancer and he's only getting heart problems. He gets forwarded (of course!) from an officious-sounding woman at the support number to a cheerful sounding and accommodating guy in anther office. SURE he can have lung cancer, too. It is a humorous and -- because of the humor -- effective presentation. Realistically, your shopper would have been (1 joking, (2 ignoring the warnings and (3 making an irrational decision. Cheers, Cortland This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Arcing Sparking
Fellow Listers At a recent equipment design review, a discussion on arcing and sparking indicated a lack of definitive knowledge of the difference between an 'arc' and a 'spark'. Is an 'arc', basically just a long 'spark'. If so, at what point (precisely) does a 'spark' become an 'arc'? Have I got it all wrong? Are they 'something else'. Can anyone enlighten my darkness? __ Jim Speakman (Design Safety Representative (Southern Sites) Thales Defence Ltd Thales Sensors Manor Royal Crawley West Sussex RH10 9PZ * Tel:+44(0)1293 644911 * Mob:+44(0)7968 529439 * Fax : +44(0)1293 644194 *e-mail jim.speak...@uk.thalesgroup.com __ This e-mail contains confidential information for the addressee only. If a transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify us on +44(0)1293 644911 and delete it and all copies from your system. You should not use, disclose, distribute or copy this communication if received in error. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: More profound than a joke
I read in !emc-pstc that Gibling, Vic vic.gibl...@e2vtechnologies.com wrote (in 4f826f960057d4118ec3009027e245380946d...@whl17.eev.uk) about 'More profound than a joke' on Mon, 22 Sep 2003: In the UK cigarette packaging includes a large information message indicating the health risks associated with using the product. The following dialogue would have been funny had it not been true. Could I have a packet of 20 cigarettes please?, the man asked. What would you like? the assistant replied, Those that kill you with lung cancer or those that give chronic heart problems? Mmmm. I take those that can harm the baby in the womb. Was the man matching the assistants humour/sarcasms? Yes. OR Was he ignoring the warnings, it's not going to happen to him? Yes, that as well, since presumably he was going to smoke the cigarettes. OR Was he making a rational risk assessment based on the information provided by the manufacturer? A risk assessment, but not a rational one. Being male, he had zero risk of harming a baby inside him, but he could possibly harm the unborn baby of his Significant Other. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: More profound than a joke
Were it not for the risks associated with passive smoking, I would say the customer made a wise choice if he intents to consume the product himself. He has chosen a brand who's associated risk (as stated on the product) cannot affect *him* personally. :o) IANASP (I am not a safety professional), however... In practice these risks are not mutually exclusive, despite only one warning being displayed per packet. One could claim that all the risks should be detailed on each packet, however the counter argument is that that because the health warnings are distributed randomly between packets, anyone consuming cigarettes in quantities likely to present a significant increase in risk above a non-smoker will be shown all the warnings in due course. Additionally many such warnings are visible from the product displays at point of sale, as well as in product advertising. -- Richard King. Thales Communications UK, -Original Message- From: Gibling, Vic [mailto:vic.gibl...@e2vtechnologies.com] Sent: 22 September 2003 08:07 To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: More profound than a joke In the UK cigarette packaging includes a large information message indicating the health risks associated with using the product. The following dialogue would have been funny had it not been true. Could I have a packet of 20 cigarettes please?, the man asked. What would you like? the assistant replied, Those that kill you with lung cancer or those that give chronic heart problems? Mmmm. I take those that can harm the baby in the womb. Was the man matching the assistants humour/sarcasms? OR Was he ignoring the warnings, it's not going to happen to him? OR Was he making a rational risk assessment based on the information provided by the manufacturer? Vic Gibling e2v technologies Ltd This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
More profound than a joke
In the UK cigarette packaging includes a large information message indicating the health risks associated with using the product. The following dialogue would have been funny had it not been true. Could I have a packet of 20 cigarettes please?, the man asked. What would you like? the assistant replied, Those that kill you with lung cancer or those that give chronic heart problems? Mmmm. I take those that can harm the baby in the womb. Was the man matching the assistants humour/sarcasms? OR Was he ignoring the warnings, it's not going to happen to him? OR Was he making a rational risk assessment based on the information provided by the manufacturer? Vic Gibling e2v technologies Ltd This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
