[PSES] harmonics flicker
I am trying to find the driving requirement for ITE to be tested to 61000-3-2 and 61000-3-3 (harmonics flicker). For test measurement equipment 61326 clearly states the requirement, but I cannot find the equivalent statement in 55022/4 nor can I find it in the EMC directive. Anybody help? Best Regards, Dave Coleman --- This email and any attached files contains company confidential information which may be legally privileged. it is intended only for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed and solely for the purposes set forth therein. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this email in error please notify the sender by return, delete it from your system and destroy any local copies. It is strictly forbidden to use the information in this email including any attachment or part thereof including copying, disclosing, distributing, amending or using for any other purpose. In addition the sender excludes all liabilities (whether tortious or common law) for damage or breach arising or related to this email including but not limited to viruses and libel. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker
Dear Dave EN 61000-3-2 and -3-3 are both listed on page 13 of the 30/9/12 edition of the EMCD standards. See http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2011:288:0001:0019:EN:PDF Best regards Ian Unwin From: Dave Coleman david.cole...@selexelsag.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 21/12/2011 08:59 Subject: [PSES] harmonics flicker I am trying to find the driving requirement for ITE to be tested to 61000-3-2 and 61000-3-3 (harmonics flicker). For test measurement equipment 61326 clearly states the requirement, but I cannot find the equivalent statement in 55022/4 nor can I find it in the EMC directive. Anybody help? Best Regards, Dave Coleman --- This email and any attached files contains company confidential information which may be legally privileged. it is intended only for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed and solely for the purposes set forth therein. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this email in error please notify the sender by return, delete it from your system and destroy any local copies. It is strictly forbidden to use the information in this email including any attachment or part thereof including copying, disclosing, distributing, amending or using for any other purpose. In addition the sender excludes all liabilities (whether tortious or common law) for damage or breach arising or related to this email including but not limited to viruses and libel. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com _ Servomex incoming mail advice _ Servomex may, as part of its normal activities, monitor, edit or censor the content of any information and software, transmitted through, or stored on, its facilities. Servomex reserves the right to monitor communications, as required, to protect the legitimate interests of Servomex and its business partners. _ Servomex company information and outgoing e-mail advice. Servomex Group Limited, Jarvis Brook, Crowborough, East Sussex, TN6 3FB, England. e-mail: i...@servomex.com Company Registered in England: No.2170458 VAT No.: GB 522 6077 63 EXPORT CONTROL INFORMATION: Resale, onward shipment or diversion of Servomex products to embargoed destinations including but not limited to Iran, Syria, Sudan and North Korea is strictly prohibited. This email has been scanned for all viruses by MessageLabs and contains information from Servomex which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us immediately. Servomex may, as part of its normal activities, monitor, edit or censor the content of any information and software, transmitted through, or stored on, its facilities. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker
In message of3a5c1ae1.acc2a817-on8025796d.0030b95e-8025796d.00313...@selexelsag.com , dated Wed, 21 Dec 2011, david.cole...@selexelsag.com writes: I am trying to find the driving requirement for ITE to be tested to 61000-3-2 and 61000-3-3 (harmonics flicker). These standards are 'product family standards', and do not need to be called up by product standards. The 'product family' is 'anything connected to the public low-voltage electricity supply'. The EMC Directive does not call up any standards. Complying with standards is one way of complying with the Directive. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker
That's my point - I'm aware of the requirement to be compliant with these standards, but I'm giving direction to others less knowledgeable and I need to refer to them to the text that states the requirement unambiguously. If these words are not in the product standards or in the directive, where are they? Best Regards, Dave Coleman “Usually I try to take it one day at a time, but lately several have attacked me at once...” Please consider the environment before printing this email From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 21/12/2011 09:41 Subject: Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker In message of3a5c1ae1.acc2a817-on8025796d.0030b95e-8025796d.00313...@selexelsag.com , dated Wed, 21 Dec 2011, david.cole...@selexelsag.com writes: I am trying to find the driving requirement for ITE to be tested to 61000-3-2 and 61000-3-3 (harmonics flicker). These standards are 'product family standards', and do not need to be called up by product standards. The 'product family' is 'anything connected to the public low-voltage electricity supply'. The EMC Directive does not call up any standards. Complying with standards is one way of complying with the Directive. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com --- This email and any attached files contains company confidential information which may be legally privileged. it is intended only for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed and solely for the purposes set forth therein. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this email in error please notify the sender by return, delete it from your system and destroy any local copies. It is strictly forbidden to use the information in this email including any attachment or part thereof including copying, disclosing, distributing, amending or using for any other purpose. In addition the sender excludes all liabilities (whether tortious or common law) for damage or breach arising or related to this email including but not limited to viruses and libel. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker
Dave You are not required to be compliant with standards – you are required to be compliant with the protection requirements of the EMC Directive. Ways of demonstrating compliance are discussed in “The Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC (8th February 2010)”, available from http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/electrical/documents/emc/guidance/index_en.htm Section 3.2 covers the use of Harmonised Standards to obtain a presumption of conformity, including: Generally the three main aspects to be covered are: – high frequency emission (related to radio protection); – low frequency emission on the mains supply (harmonics, voltage fluctuations); – Immunity to permanent and transient EMC phenomena. In reality most companies choose to test products to Harmonised Standards, using test equipment made by companies who sit on standards committees alongside test labs who perform the testing – but it’s not compulsory ☺ Regards Charlie -Original Message- From: Dave Coleman [mailto:david.cole...@selexelsag.com] Sent: 21 December 2011 10:50 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker That's my point - I'm aware of the requirement to be compliant with these standards, but I'm giving direction to others less knowledgeable and I need to refer to them to the text that states the requirement unambiguously. If these words are not in the product standards or in the directive, where are they? Best Regards, Dave Coleman “Usually I try to take it one day at a time, but lately several have attacked me at once...” Please consider the environment before printing this email From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 21/12/2011 09:41 Subject: Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker In message of3a5c1ae1.acc2a817-on8025796d.0030b95e-8025796d.00313...@selexelsag.com , dated Wed, 21 Dec 2011, david.cole...@selexelsag.com writes: I am trying to find the driving requirement for ITE to be tested to 61000-3-2 and 61000-3-3 (harmonics flicker). These standards are 'product family standards', and do not need to be called up by product standards. The 'product family' is 'anything connected to the public low-voltage electricity supply'. The EMC Directive does not call up any standards. Complying with standards is one way of complying with the Directive. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com --- This email and any attached files contains company confidential information which may be legally privileged. it is intended only for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed and solely for the purposes set forth therein. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this email in error please notify the sender by return, delete it from your system and destroy any local copies. It is strictly forbidden to use the information in this email including any attachment or part thereof including copying, disclosing, distributing, amending or using for any other purpose. In addition the sender excludes all liabilities (whether tortious or common law) for damage or breach arising or related to this email including but not limited to viruses and libel. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions:
Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker
Charlie, Yours and John Woodgate's responses tell me what I already know - but don't answer the fundamental question, of why there is not a legally enforceable document (and the EMC Directive Guide is not), that tells the uninitiated what standards their equipment needs to comply with, if they are using the harmonised stds route? Can they reasonably be expected to read the scope of every harmonised std? Why did the writers of 61326 feel it necessary to include reference to 610003-3-2 3-3, but the writers of 55022 did not? Best Regards, Dave Coleman From: Charlie Blackham char...@sulisconsultants.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 21/12/2011 11:42 Subject: Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker Dave You are not required to be compliant with standards – you are required to be compliant with the protection requirements of the EMC Directive. Ways of demonstrating compliance are discussed in “The Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC (8th February 2010)”, available from http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/electrical/documents/emc/guidance/index_en.htm Section 3.2 covers the use of Harmonised Standards to obtain a presumption of conformity, including: Generally the three main aspects to be covered are: – high frequency emission (related to radio protection); – low frequency emission on the mains supply (harmonics, voltage fluctuations); – Immunity to permanent and transient EMC phenomena. In reality most companies choose to test products to Harmonised Standards, using test equipment made by companies who sit on standards committees alongside test labs who perform the testing – but it’s not compulsory J Regards Charlie -Original Message- From: Dave Coleman [mailto:david.cole...@selexelsag.com] Sent: 21 December 2011 10:50 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker That's my point - I'm aware of the requirement to be compliant with these standards, but I'm giving direction to others less knowledgeable and I need to refer to them to the text that states the requirement unambiguously. If these words are not in the product standards or in the directive, where are they? Best Regards, Dave Coleman “Usually I try to take it one day at a time, but lately several have attacked me at once...” Please consider the environment before printing this email From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 21/12/2011 09:41 Subject: Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker In message of3a5c1ae1.acc2a817-on8025796d.0030b95e-8025796d.00313...@selexelsag.com , dated Wed, 21 Dec 2011, david.cole...@selexelsag.com writes: I am trying to find the driving requirement for ITE to be tested to 61000-3-2 and 61000-3-3 (harmonics flicker). These standards are 'product family standards', and do not need to be called up by product standards. The 'product family' is 'anything connected to the public low-voltage electricity supply'. The EMC Directive does not call up any standards. Complying with standards is one way of complying with the Directive. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com --- This email and any attached files contains company confidential information which may be legally privileged. it is intended only for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed and solely for the purposes set forth therein. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this email in error please notify the sender by return, delete it from your system and destroy any local copies. It is strictly forbidden to use the information in this email including any attachment or part thereof including copying, disclosing, distributing, amending or using for any other purpose. In addition the sender excludes all liabilities (whether tortious or common law) for damage or breach arising or
Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker
In message of7e5afce7.40bb91cf-on8025796d.0040e621-8025796d.0041c...@selexelsag.com , dated Wed, 21 Dec 2011, david.cole...@selexelsag.com writes: Why did the writers of 61326 feel it necessary to include reference to 610003-3-2 3-3, but the writers of 55022 did not? The writers of IEC/EN 61326 should not have included the reference, unless as a note or in an informative annex. it is not correct to claim to use one standard to enforce another, because that is not in the Scope of any standard. The writers of CISPR 22/EN 55022 wrote correctly (in this instance). -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] [***] RE: [PSES] harmonics flicker
In message 3f0347ac6ed9504191f91f07629fbb0c554...@thhsle14mbx2.hslive.net, dated Wed, 21 Dec 2011, Charlie Blackham char...@sulisconsultants.com writes: In reality most companies choose to test products to Harmonised Standards, using test equipment made by companies who sit on standards committees alongside test labs who perform the testing – but it’s not compulsory That's not fair; all standards bodies have a duty to ensure a balance of representation on committees. There IS a problem of complacency, mostly affecting equipment manufacturers, who don't send experts to the committees and then complain that they don't like the resulting standards. But the situation now is much better than it used to be - at least the more wide-awake manufacturers realise they can't afford to be out of the loop. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker
Dave, Your main point is true, but consider this : 1) There are many thousands of products on the world market that are sold within the EU. Each can be slightly different or vastly different from each other. 2) Even sight differences in application and use could force you to look at other standards. 3) Even if the EU produced legally enforced guidelines for all the combinations above, finding the guideline in the first place would still be a huge job. And what do you do if nothing fits 2) Also using harmonised standards is just one route Regards Ian White Compliance and Reliability -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of david.cole...@selexelsag.com Sent: 21 December 2011 11:58 To: Charlie Blackham Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker Charlie, Yours and John Woodgate's responses tell me what I already know - but don't answer the fundamental question, of why there is not a legally enforceable document (and the EMC Directive Guide is not), that tells the uninitiated what standards their equipment needs to comply with, if they are using the harmonised stds route? Can they reasonably be expected to read the scope of every harmonised std? Why did the writers of 61326 feel it necessary to include reference to 610003-3-2 3-3, but the writers of 55022 did not? Best Regards, Dave Coleman From: Charlie Blackham char...@sulisconsultants.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 21/12/2011 11:42 Subject: Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker Dave You are not required to be compliant with standards – you are required to be compliant with the protection requirements of the EMC Directive. Ways of demonstrating compliance are discussed in “The Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC (8th February 2010)”, available from http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/electrical/documents/emc/guidance/index_en.htm Section 3.2 covers the use of Harmonised Standards to obtain a presumption of conformity, including: Generally the three main aspects to be covered are: – high frequency emission (related to radio protection); – low frequency emission on the mains supply (harmonics, voltage fluctuations); – Immunity to permanent and transient EMC phenomena. In reality most companies choose to test products to Harmonised Standards, using test equipment made by companies who sit on standards committees alongside test labs who perform the testing – but it’s not compulsory J Regards Charlie -Original Message- From: Dave Coleman [mailto:david.cole...@selexelsag.com] Sent: 21 December 2011 10:50 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker That's my point - I'm aware of the requirement to be compliant with these standards, but I'm giving direction to others less knowledgeable and I need to refer to them to the text that states the requirement unambiguously. If these words are not in the product standards or in the directive, where are they? Best Regards, Dave Coleman “Usually I try to take it one day at a time, but lately several have attacked me at once...” Please consider the environment before printing this email From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 21/12/2011 09:41 Subject: Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker In message of3a5c1ae1.acc2a817-on8025796d.0030b95e-8025796d.00313...@selexelsag.com , dated Wed, 21 Dec 2011, david.cole...@selexelsag.com writes: I am trying to find the driving requirement for ITE to be tested to 61000-3-2 and 61000-3-3 (harmonics flicker). These standards are 'product family standards', and do not need to be called up by product standards. The 'product family' is 'anything connected to the public low-voltage electricity supply'. The EMC Directive does not call up any standards. Complying with standards is one way of complying with the Directive. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions,
Re: [PSES] Lab Needed for 17025 Accredited Calibration for Davis Weather Station
Hi Derek! Thanks for the input / feedback - will look into the alternate way of demonstrating compliance to the traceability requirements. Here is the excerpt from TIA 603 D 1.4.5 Standard Atmospheric Conditions The standard atmospheric condition is a temperature of 25 °C at an atmospheric pressure of 1013 hPa (1013 mbar). Measurements, however, may be carried out at any combination of temperature, pressure, and relative humidity within the following limits: Temperature: 20 °C to 35 °C Relative Humidity: 45% to 75% Atmospheric Pressure: 860 hPa to 1060 hPa (860 mbar to 1060 mbar) We are accredited to this standard by A2LA. Think the main problem with the weather station seems to be the rain gage and a few of the other measurement capabilities of the device. Think can live with limited cal to accredited parameters and find a good lab out there. BTW - I get the lazy way but my experience has been that defining what it is that you need and developing procurement requirements that are followed by the accredited calibration labs can be somewhat of a challenge! Can't just say you want accredited cal. I have learned a lot about metrology in the process! Good to hear from you and I hope that you and yours have a great Holiday Season! Best regards, Mac Elliott [] General Public -Original Message- From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 6:39 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Lab Needed for 17025 Accredited Calibration for Davis Weather Station Hi Mac, NVLAP requires that you follow Annex B of NIST HB-150. An accredited calibration is not the only way, just the lazy way. Are you sure you need to record these parameters? If your standard has no limits, then quite possibly you could argue out of recording them. I'm not a fan of doing things just cos' Cheers, Derek. On 12/19/2011 12:39 PM, Pettit, Ghery wrote: Agreed that the instrument needs to be calibrated, but the degree of accuracy doesn't need to be NWS grade (IMHO). What you are demonstrating is that the environmental conditions are within the range specified for the test. And if you have enough control you shouldn't be pushing the edges, so it become less critical. Just don't try ESD out in the open on a hot, humid day in the south. Nor try it in the foothills above Denver at any time. The atmospheric pressure will be too low. Remember, the barometer must be calibrated to read absolute pressure, not pressure corrected to sea level like the weather guessers will give you. Ghery S. Pettit -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian Oconnell Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 10:00 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Lab Needed for 17025 Accredited Calibration for Davis Weather Station Transcat will cal stuff that does these parameters and does 17025. RH, temp, and atm pressure xdcrs are common stuff. What is wrong with these cal-lab people? Possible to remove transducers/sensors and send to cal lab to do tables? Most Davis systems are not NWS-grade, and the rated accuracies could allow a company verification process where altitude and temp correction is applied to local METAR data, temp sensor is verified with your recently calibrated instrument used in Type Tests, and the RH sensor can be verified using the chemical kits or calc using dry/wet bulb readings. Do not have a weather station at place of employment, but have several similar sensors connected to data logger to monitor lab conditions during all tests, and have never had any problem submitting this data to auditors. Brian -Original Message- On 12/19/11, Elliott Mac-FME001fme...@motorolasolutions.com wrote: All Our cal guys are telling me that they are having a hard time finding a lab that can do 17025 accredited calibrations for our Davis Weather Monitor that we use on our OATS to measure temp / humidity / and barometric pressure during our testing. Any suggestions? Best regards, Mac Elliott - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail toemc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglasemcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwellmcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher:j.bac...@ieee.org David
Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker
There are not that much standards applicable to each and every product, unless you never read the list. If you do not know which standard is applicable, one also can opt for the generic standards set. The phenomena based approach is imho the way if you cannot afford the use of a consultant. So in order of best results: 1. Ask a consultant 2. search for an applicable standard for harmonics and flicker (4 exist 16 and 16 amp) 3. search the scope of harmonized standards for the best fit for emissions 4. search the scope of harmonized standards for best fit for immunity 5. Be aware that sometime 34 are 2 different standards, and sometimes 34 are in one standard 6. Verify you actually selected the applicable version (LOOK at the DATE in the list , newest is not always best). 7. Verify you found and read all valid amendments ad corrigenda 8. Search Google for a DoC for a similar product and copy; you will probably end up with an obsolete list 9. Now you are really confused: go back to 1. Yours truly Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen, BSc Consultancy and test house g.grem...@cetest.nl www.cetest.nl Kiotoweg 363 3047 BG Rotterdam T 31(0)104152426 F 31(0)104154953 Before printing, think about the environment. -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens Ian White (UK) Verzonden: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 1:27 PM Aan: david.cole...@selexelsag.com; Charlie Blackham CC: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Onderwerp: RE: [PSES] harmonics flicker Dave, Your main point is true, but consider this : 1) There are many thousands of products on the world market that are sold within the EU. Each can be slightly different or vastly different from each other. 2) Even sight differences in application and use could force you to look at other standards. 3) Even if the EU produced legally enforced guidelines for all the combinations above, finding the guideline in the first place would still be a huge job. And what do you do if nothing fits 2) Also using harmonised standards is just one route Regards Ian White Compliance and Reliability -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of david.cole...@selexelsag.com Sent: 21 December 2011 11:58 To: Charlie Blackham Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker Charlie, Yours and John Woodgate's responses tell me what I already know - but don't answer the fundamental question, of why there is not a legally enforceable document (and the EMC Directive Guide is not), that tells the uninitiated what standards their equipment needs to comply with, if they are using the harmonised stds route? Can they reasonably be expected to read the scope of every harmonised std? Why did the writers of 61326 feel it necessary to include reference to 610003-3-2 3-3, but the writers of 55022 did not? Best Regards, Dave Coleman From: Charlie Blackham char...@sulisconsultants.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 21/12/2011 11:42 Subject: Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker Dave You are not required to be compliant with standards – you are required to be compliant with the protection requirements of the EMC Directive. Ways of demonstrating compliance are discussed in “The Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC (8th February 2010)”, available from http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/electrical/documents/emc/guidance/index_en.htm Section 3.2 covers the use of Harmonised Standards to obtain a presumption of conformity, including: Generally the three main aspects to be covered are: – high frequency emission (related to radio protection); – low frequency emission on the mains supply (harmonics, voltage fluctuations); – Immunity to permanent and transient EMC phenomena. In reality most companies choose to test products to Harmonised Standards, using test equipment made by companies who sit on standards committees alongside test labs who perform the testing – but it’s not compulsory J Regards Charlie -Original Message- From: Dave Coleman [mailto:david.cole...@selexelsag.com] Sent: 21 December 2011 10:50 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker That's my point - I'm aware of the requirement to be compliant with these standards, but I'm giving direction to others less knowledgeable and I need to refer to them to the text that states the requirement unambiguously. If these words are not in the product standards or in the directive, where are they? Best Regards, Dave Coleman “Usually I try to take it one day at a time, but lately several have attacked me at once...” Please consider the environment before printing this email From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 21/12/2011 09:41 Subject: Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker In message of3a5c1ae1.acc2a817-on8025796d.0030b95e-8025796d.00313...@selexelsag.com , dated Wed, 21 Dec 2011,
Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker
In message FCA549BE3ECF9D4CB8CB8576837EA48914036B@ZEUS.cetest.local, dated Wed, 21 Dec 2011, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl writes: So in order of best results: 1. Ask a consultant What about: 0 Ask on this mailing list ? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] harmonics flicker
Isn't the requirement in the scope? EN 61000-3-2 applies to all electrical and electronic equipment that has an input current of up to 16A per phase, suitable for connection to the low-voltage AC public mains distribution network. It is my understanding that it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to test to all applicable standards pertaining to the product (or have back up as to why the test does not apply). Best Regards Charles Grasso Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications (w) 303-706-5467 (c) 303-204-2974 (t) 3032042...@vtext.com (e) charles.gra...@echostar.com (e2) chasgra...@gmail.com -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of david.cole...@selexelsag.com Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 1:57 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: harmonics flicker I am trying to find the driving requirement for ITE to be tested to 61000-3-2 and 61000-3-3 (harmonics flicker). For test measurement equipment 61326 clearly states the requirement, but I cannot find the equivalent statement in 55022/4 nor can I find it in the EMC directive. Anybody help? Best Regards, Dave Coleman --- This email and any attached files contains company confidential information which may be legally privileged. it is intended only for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed and solely for the purposes set forth therein. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this email in error please notify the sender by return, delete it from your system and destroy any local copies. It is strictly forbidden to use the information in this email including any attachment or part thereof including copying, disclosing, distributing, amending or using for any other purpose. In addition the sender excludes all liabilities (whether tortious or common law) for damage or breach arising or related to this email including but not limited to viruses and libel. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Semi-Anechoic Chamber Question - Correction Factor
Professor Leferink published a nice paper that proposed a different correction factor for a SAC to a FAC. I tried to track it down but had no luck. Best Regards Charles Grasso Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications (w) 303-706-5467 (c) 303-204-2974 (t) 3032042...@vtext.commailto:3032042...@vtext.com (e) charles.gra...@echostar.commailto:charles.gra...@echostar.com (e2) chasgra...@gmail.commailto:chasgra...@gmail.com From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Jim Hulbert Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 2:27 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Semi-Anechoic Chamber Question Thank you everyone for the helpful feedback. The consensus is clearly: Save my back and leave the absorber and ferrite tiles in place. Compare radiated emissions measurements in the chamber to those on the OATS (several suggested a comb generator for this purpose). Assign an adjustment factor to the chamber measurements to correlate as closely as possible to the OATS measurements (6dB has been suggested as a reasonable factor, although I need to confirm this through my own measurements). Jim - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Semi-Anechoic Chamber Question - Correction Factor
Go back, way back, to the paper by pate, german, smith, on the NSA. Go through all the details and calculations and surmise that there is the direct path, and the reflected path. The reflected path adds, or not, to the direct path, depending on wavelength (phase at receive antenna) and distance between antennas. A scan up to 4 meters will generally cover the apparent phase shift at the lower frequencies such that a maximum is recorded. This scan will certainly cover the apparent phase shift of higher freq's. The reflected wave verses the direct wave, will have a longer distance and thus a little more loss. In the worst case, it can be neglected. It will also suffer some loss at the reflecting surface, generally assumed to be a perfect boundary since it is unknown but defined as metal. Thus, the received voltage received via a direct path added with a reflected path, assuming no distance or reflection loss, would be 6 dB higher than the direct path alone. This direct path alone is the assumed field measured in a FAC, neglecting any chamber anomalies. Or is it 3 dB higher?? as in power? From: Grasso, Charles charles.gra...@echostar.com To: Jim Hulbert jim.hulb...@pb.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 4:29 PM Subject: RE: Semi-Anechoic Chamber Question - Correction Factor Professor Leferink published a nice paper that proposed a different correction factor for a SAC to a FAC. I tried to track it down but had no luck. Best Regards Charles Grasso Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications (w) 303-706-5467 (c) 303-204-2974 (t) 3032042...@vtext.com (e) charles.gra...@echostar.com (e2) chasgra...@gmail.com From:emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Jim Hulbert Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 2:27 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Semi-Anechoic Chamber Question Thank you everyone for the helpful feedback. The consensus is clearly: Save my back and leave the absorber and ferrite tiles in place. Compare radiated emissions measurements in the chamber to those on the OATS (several suggested a comb generator for this purpose). Assign an adjustment factor to the chamber measurements to correlate as closely as possible to the OATS measurements (6dB has been suggested as a reasonable factor, although I need to confirm this through my own measurements). Jim - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For
Re: [PSES] Semi-Anechoic Chamber Question - Correction Factor
At a basic level, do an NSA for the chamber and compare to the OATS NSA to develop a correction factor for the two. From: Grasso, Charles charles.gra...@echostar.com To: Jim Hulbert jim.hulb...@pb.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 4:29 PM Subject: RE: Semi-Anechoic Chamber Question - Correction Factor Professor Leferink published a nice paper that proposed a different correction factor for a SAC to a FAC. I tried to track it down but had no luck. Best Regards Charles Grasso Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications (w) 303-706-5467 (c) 303-204-2974 (t) 3032042...@vtext.com (e) charles.gra...@echostar.com (e2) chasgra...@gmail.com From:emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Jim Hulbert Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 2:27 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Semi-Anechoic Chamber Question Thank you everyone for the helpful feedback. The consensus is clearly: Save my back and leave the absorber and ferrite tiles in place. Compare radiated emissions measurements in the chamber to those on the OATS (several suggested a comb generator for this purpose). Assign an adjustment factor to the chamber measurements to correlate as closely as possible to the OATS measurements (6dB has been suggested as a reasonable factor, although I need to confirm this through my own measurements). Jim - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
