required power cord markings
Hello Group, I have a detachable AC power cord proposed for shipment to Europe. It has VDE markings which I take to be a German safety approval, but no CE mark. Must it have the CE mark for shipment to Europe? The ITE equipment that it ships with is CE marked. Thanks in advance George Stults WatchGuard Technologies Inc.
question regarding unlicensed transmitters
Hello Group, I have a general question along the following lines. Given an 802.11b wireless product, designed for operation on Channel 1-14, and with the capability to be configured by the user software interface for whatever country or region the user is in: If the user chooses to configure the product to operate on channels that are not allocated for a given country; who is in trouble, the manufacturer, or the user, or both? And does the responsibility vary by country? Thanks in advance George Stults WatchGuard Technologies Inc.
RE: OK, what's going on?
I suppose that vibration may be good to a point, but I offer the following. I bought a pair of PC's (These were Dell Dimension 500 and they did pass Class B) out of the box. I found however that after many repeated trips to the lab in my car, they no longer did. The I/O connectors did degrade somewhat, but the noise leakage was traced to the case. It appeared that the problem was fretting due to vibrating metal to metal contacts along various seams in concert with some kind of coating on the surfaces. Where metal fingers met metal surface, a kind of black marking had developed and I found it couldn't be cleaned with alcohol etc. Light sandpapering didn't help much either, although I suppose a dremel tool might have worked. Copper tape along the affected seams did work, but of course then, I had modified it George Stults WatchGuard Technologies Inc. From: Cortland Richmond [mailto:72146@compuserve.com] Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 11:10 AM To: lfresea...@aol.com; ieee pstc list Subject: Re: OK, what's going on? Derek wrote: the EUT should have been exposed to simulated shipping and installation by a user... FWIW, in the 1980's I worked in an audit lab where we tested samples of shipped equipment for FCC, vibration, heat, humidity, temperature, TEMPEST... it was not uncommon for equipment to do BETTER in EMC tests after it had been subjected to vibration testing. With oils, oxides and so on having been abraded, metal parts made better contact with each other. Cortland This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Shieled ethernet cables in Germany
Hello Group, I heard recently that shielded Ethernet cables have become something of a customer-expectation-based defacto standard in Germany for installation of network type ITE equipment (routers, switches, firewalls, etc.) Can anyone confirm or comment on that. Is it like that anywhere else? Thanks George Stults WatchGuard Technologies Inc. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Video Cameras for EMC Test Monitoring
Might I suggest putting a pin hole (minature) video camera in a metal box. I’ve seen it done successfully at an EMC lab and used for observation during immunity. -George Stults From: Sandi McEnery [mailto:smcen...@ustech-lab.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 10:35 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Video Cameras for EMC Test Monitoring We are in the process of purchasing video cameras for monitoring EMC Immunity testing up to 10V/M. Pricing for cameras designed to withstand 20V/M is way high do any of you successfully use cameras that are not as sturdy? Or ... does anyone know where we might purchase a used system?? Sandi McEnery US Technologies 770-740-0717(ph) 770-740-1508 (fax) smcen...@ustech-lab.com
RE: rayleigh criterion and farfield
Thanks to one and all. A summary of what I've understood by this and other replies is: The formula for the Rayleigh criterion is based on solving a right triangle for the distance to the center of the antenna element as described below by Dr Turnbull and neglecting a small lambda term in the result, thus the formula dist 2*(Ant dimension)^2/lambda is a slight over estimate for a given wavelength. Ken Javor's derivation gave Lamda/16 as an accepted path length difference at the far field... That is, the difference in distance between the line (from the center of the antenna) to a point and a line from that same point (hypotenuse) to the edge of the antenna element. The phenomena I was curious about, what happens when you hold the antenna dimension constant and vary the frequency does work the way I thought it did. It just seemed odd because it goes against my intuition that shorter wavelengths should have a shorter focal length for a given aperture or antenna. But the right triangle geometry says otherwise. One last thought, there is another far field distance criterion based on wave impedance (Maxwell's) dist Lambda /(2*PI ) For a given antenna size and wave length Maxwell's criterion could give a longer or shorter required distance, so it looks like one should check both and choose the greater. Best, George Stults -Original Message- From: Luke Turnbull [mailto:luke.turnb...@trw.com] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 1:53 AM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org'; George Stults Subject: Re: rayleigh criterion and farfield The derivation of this formula involves considering a position in front of the antenna, on the line in the direction of radiation. The distance from this point to the edge of the antenna will be slightly more than the distance to the centre. If this distance is a significant fraction of a wavelength, the the far field pattern is not realised because of phase error / cancellation. Hence at higher frequencies (shorter wavelengths), the same position in front of the antenna will have phase errors where there were no problems at lower frequencies. Hope this helps, Dr Luke Turnbull Principal EMC Engineer TRW Conekt Statford Road Solihull B90 4GW Tel: +44 (0)121.627.3966 Fax:+44 (0)121.627.4353 email: luke.turnb...@trw.com web: www.trw.com/conekt/ George Stults george.stu...@watchguard.com 11/21/02 05:59pm Hello Group, A book I've been reading gives the Rayleigh criterion for farfield conditions based on antenna (or EUT max dimension) size as dist for farfield conditions2*(max antenna dimension)^2/lambda When I look at this, it says that the required distance for far field conditions increases as the square of the dimensions of the antenna, which seems intuitive. What I found strange is that if you hold the antenna dimension constant, (ie for a given fixed antenna dimension) it predicts that the distance for farfield conditions will increase linearly with the frequency. That does not seem intuitive. Does anyone have a thought about how this works? Regards, George Stults WatchGuard Technologies Inc --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: rayleigh criterion and farfield
As I understand it, your analogy agrees nicely with the prediction that as the dimensions increase, the far field distance increases. I think my question is a little different. By the same analogy and considering a fixed dimension lense versus the length at which various frequencies could be focused; it seems like the formula predicts that higher frequencies of light would focus further out. Does that happen? -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:12 PM To: George Stults; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: Re: rayleigh criterion and farfield The fact that an aperture antenna's (horn/dish) gain increases with increasing frequency DOES seem intuitively obvious to me. Consider an optical analogy. Lenses. If you are familiar with 35 mm photography, you will recognize that a short lens like a 28 mm will focus from a couple inches from the lens to infinity. Whereas a long lens like 200 mm won't focus closer than about 6 feet. Minimum focusing distance is the same as far field. The higher the gain, the further out from the antenna you have to be before achieving rated gain. -- From: George Stults george.stu...@watchguard.com To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: rayleigh criterion and farfield Date: Thu, Nov 21, 2002, 11:59 AM Hello Group, A book I've been reading gives the Rayleigh criterion for farfield conditions based on antenna (or EUT max dimension) size as dist for farfield conditions2*(max antenna dimension)^2/lambda When I look at this, it says that the required distance for far field conditions increases as the square of the dimensions of the antenna, which seems intuitive. What I found strange is that if you hold the antenna dimension constant, (ie for a given fixed antenna dimension) it predicts that the distance for farfield conditions will increase linearly with the frequency. That does not seem intuitive. Does anyone have a thought about how this works? Regards, George Stults WatchGuard Technologies Inc --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
requirement for surge and EFT
Hello Group, I am talking with an offshore manufacturer who is suggesting that their CE marked ITE gear does not have to pass Surge and EFT since it runs off 12Vdc, normally provided by an AC/DC power supply, which is supplied in the same package. They suggest that the AC/DC power supply, but not the ITE, has to pass Surge, etc. I'm sure that the whole system has to pass, but I don't know chapter and verse to quote. I suppose the scope should be spelled out in EN55024 but I don't have a copy of it, yet. Thanks in advance. George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Water + Electricity
How about monitoring moisture in soil, where the resistance between two probes changes as function of the amount of moisture (water) present, due to the minerals/elecrolytes that get disolved by the water when present. This would be useful for figuring out when to water indoor plants, or perhaps automatically maintaining a specific level of moisture.Given a battery circuit and probes in the soil, you might be able to demonstrate a current change with just an milliammeter. There ar lot of possible varitations on this one. -George Stults -Original Message- From: Joe P Martin [mailto:marti...@appliedbiosystems.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 3:58 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Water + Electricity Greetings, A friend of mine is teaching elementary school students on the dangers of mixing water with electricity. However, he also wants to show examples of situations where water and electricity mix, yet does not cause a problem. Does anyone have any examples? Also, does anyone have a great elementary school explanation as to what elements or conditions are needed to be present before water and electricity become dangerous? All responses are appreciated. Joe Martin Applied Biosystems marti...@appliedbiosystems.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Adding wireless to ITE
Hi Folks, If one starts out with an ITE product, and then adds a PCMCIA slot and populates it with a Wireless Network Card (802.11 or Bluetooth) what kind of additional US/CAN and European standards/requirements then apply to the ITE product. Does RTTE apply? Thanks in advance George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Setting up an SMT Lab
Hello group, I am currently considering the possibility of setting up a Supervised Manufacturer Testing (SMT) Lab at my company. This is an entirely new area for me. I would appreciate any comments online or offline as to what experience folks have had with this type of program, positive or negative recommendations or comments, whats good about it, what to watch out for, etc. The type equipment to be evaluated is limited to ITE. Thanks in advance, George Stults Compliance Engineer WatchGuard Technologies Inc. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
requirements for ITE power cords
Hello Group, Recently my purchasing department asked me to recommend standards for power cords. These are detachable power cords for ITE equipment, both 3-wire and 2-wire. Typically the cords are marked with one or more of CSA, UL, (Dentori T). The ones we get are typically rated from 6 to 10 times the required current for a given product. My question is, are there required or recommended power cord design margins for current, voltage, power, temperature range, insulation, etc. spelled out in IEC/EN 60950 or UL1950 or MIL-HDBK 217 or elsewhere? Thanks in advance George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
off topic foreign customs
Being as this is an international forum, hopefully someone knows the answer to an international question that I'd like to ask about social customs in Pakistan. Please respond only to george.stu...@watchguard.com since this is not about EMC or Safety. Best, George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
Here are a couple of links that show the cases in question. One of the stores I found them at is a national chain with 43 stores from California to Ohio. They appear to be widespread and therefore, its reasonable to expect that a lot of them will get built. http://www.storefinity.com/go/silverpcscom/ http://www.ocsystem.com/skyhaw43almi.html It will be interesting to see if in fact they do cause problems. I suspect that Analog cell phone service might well be affected whereas devices using any type of spread spectrum such as digital cell phones and digital mobile phones will probably not be susceptible since the noise should be mostly narrowband clocks. I appreciate the responses I recieved concerning my question. Its been most educational. Best Regards, George Stults -Original Message- From: Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 10:44 AM To: michael.sundst...@nokia.com; jklin...@celectronics.com; George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? With the Home-Built issue, I was keying on the instructions to build available on the internet part, obviously if the systems are offered or marketed for sale whole, or in kit form, then as far as the FCC rules are concerned, it's not considered homebuilt. This has been an issue for as long as I can recall, PC systems, built and sold through mom-and-pop stores, usually slide when it comes to the FCC rules. It's just too difficult for the FCC to pursue each and every issue. I can't speak for the FCC, but my understanding is that the FCC is complaint driven, so if this becomes a problem, someone possibly will complain, and the FCC will get involved, depending on the severity of the problem. Now, if this becomes a major craze and everyone is buying these systems, then the exposure to any problems that exist is far greater, and the probability of the FCC putting a stop to it is far greater. The short-and-simple of it is that it is not legal to sell these systems unless the FCC rules have been applied. The more complex question would then be, What can, and or should, be done about it? And to make this response even longer and more complex, let me ask one more question; How many people build or modify their own systems at home or in the office, and how many problems are actually caused by these systems? Jeff -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of michael.sundst...@nokia.com Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; george.stu...@watchguard.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit just as if it was tested, even though it was not. I suppose that a small (extremely small) chance exists that the final system could pass if tested. The loophole here may be the Home-Built devices clause, Title 47 part 15.23. Where the device is not marketed or constructed from a kit. This allows for five or less devices built for personal use without the need for compliance testing (FCC only). Jeff Klinger Director EMC Engineering Compatible Electronics, Inc. Ph: 714-579-0500 Fx: 714-528-8984 http://www.celectronics.com NARTE Certified ATL-0180-E -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of George Stults Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:11 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Hi Folks, I just walked into three local computer stores (west coast, USA) and found that desktop computers have become art forms. There are computer cases for sale with large plexiglass windows about (10in x12in), some with a fan in the middle of the plexiglass panel, and inside the case, there is a 12 inch long neon lamp, powered from the ATX power supply just like any installable drive. Through the window, one can see the motherboard, CPU heatsink, etc, all illuminated by the Neon light. Its the latest in computer fashion, I suppose. I asked a few questions at the stores and found at there are least 2 manufacturers, and that one can obtain
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
Okay then, I think I see the point. Supposing for the moment that an FCC DoC does exist for the modified case, and that it self declares Class A, and they have test results to back it up, Then, the 'legal' problem would lie with the assertion that its being sold at retail outlets for home use. Except of course the manufacturer would say that its not being sold for that purpose, and the retail outlet doesn't know the difference. Ignorance is bli$$. George Stults -Original Message- From: Wagner, John P (John) [mailto:johnwag...@avaya.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 10:52 AM To: michael.sundst...@nokia.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; George Stults Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Importance: High The current FCC rules are pretty clear. For systems assembled from components, the system considered compliant if assembled from compliant components; namely, enclosures, motherboards, power supplies. The peripheral rules also apply. So, if this case or enclosure has been tested and shown to be compliant when used as a component for a system, then all is ok. To be legal, the case should have an FCC DoC. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Westminster, CO 80234-2726 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: George Stults[SMTP:george.stu...@watchguard.com] Reply To: George Stults Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 9:56 AM To: 'michael.sundst...@nokia.com'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject:Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? The cases are being sold as components, although I am sure that any of the stores I visited would sell me an assembled system with the modified plastic-window-style-cases. There is no understanding of emission requirements at the level of the retail outlet. Surely this situation has come up before, where there were easily assembled systems from commercially available components sold for the purpose, that would nevertheless be non-compliant with a high degree of probability. How was it handled in the past? What reasoning can be applied to justify the proposition that the plastic-window-style-cases cannot be legally sold? George Stults -Original Message- From: michael.sundst...@nokia.com [ mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com ] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [ mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com ] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit just as if it was tested, even though it was not. I suppose that a small (extremely small) chance exists that the final system could pass if tested. The loophole here may be the Home-Built devices clause, Title 47 part 15.23. Where the device is not marketed or constructed from a kit. This allows for five or less devices built for personal use without the need for compliance testing (FCC only). Jeff Klinger Director EMC Engineering Compatible Electronics, Inc. Ph: 714-579-0500 Fx: 714-528-8984 http://www.celectronics.com http://www.celectronics.com NARTE Certified ATL-0180-E -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [ mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org ]On Behalf Of George Stults Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:11 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Hi Folks, I just walked into three local computer stores (west coast, USA) and found that desktop computers have become art forms. There are computer cases for sale with large plexiglass windows about (10in x12in), some with a fan in the middle of the plexiglass panel, and inside the case, there is a 12 inch long neon lamp, powered from the ATX power supply just like any installable drive. Through the window, one can see the motherboard, CPU heatsink, etc, all illuminated by the Neon light. Its the latest
Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
The cases are being sold as components, although I am sure that any of the stores I visited would sell me an assembled system with the modified plastic-window-style-cases. There is no understanding of emission requirements at the level of the retail outlet. Surely this situation has come up before, where there were easily assembled systems from commercially available components sold for the purpose, that would nevertheless be non-compliant with a high degree of probability. How was it handled in the past? What reasoning can be applied to justify the proposition that the plastic-window-style-cases cannot be legally sold? George Stults -Original Message- From: michael.sundst...@nokia.com [mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit just as if it was tested, even though it was not. I suppose that a small (extremely small) chance exists that the final system could pass if tested. The loophole here may be the Home-Built devices clause, Title 47 part 15.23. Where the device is not marketed or constructed from a kit. This allows for five or less devices built for personal use without the need for compliance testing (FCC only). Jeff Klinger Director EMC Engineering Compatible Electronics, Inc. Ph: 714-579-0500 Fx: 714-528-8984 http://www.celectronics.com NARTE Certified ATL-0180-E -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of George Stults Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:11 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Hi Folks, I just walked into three local computer stores (west coast, USA) and found that desktop computers have become art forms. There are computer cases for sale with large plexiglass windows about (10in x12in), some with a fan in the middle of the plexiglass panel, and inside the case, there is a 12 inch long neon lamp, powered from the ATX power supply just like any installable drive. Through the window, one can see the motherboard, CPU heatsink, etc, all illuminated by the Neon light. Its the latest in computer fashion, I suppose. I asked a few questions at the stores and found at there are least 2 manufacturers, and that one can obtain kits on the internet to do the same modification at home. After looking at the computer cases, I would expect them to radiate about the same as an open chassis though possibly more directional. My question would be, is there any loophole through which this is legal, or is this the blatant violation that it looks like. I've heard that there is a requirement for computer motherboards to fall within some radiated level with an open chassis. Is that correct and could that be the rational here? George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri
Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
Hi Folks, I just walked into three local computer stores (west coast, USA) and found that desktop computers have become art forms. There are computer cases for sale with large plexiglass windows about (10in x12in), some with a fan in the middle of the plexiglass panel, and inside the case, there is a 12 inch long neon lamp, powered from the ATX power supply just like any installable drive. Through the window, one can see the motherboard, CPU heatsink, etc, all illuminated by the Neon light. Its the latest in computer fashion, I suppose. I asked a few questions at the stores and found at there are least 2 manufacturers, and that one can obtain kits on the internet to do the same modification at home. After looking at the computer cases, I would expect them to radiate about the same as an open chassis though possibly more directional. My question would be, is there any loophole through which this is legal, or is this the blatant violation that it looks like. I've heard that there is a requirement for computer motherboards to fall within some radiated level with an open chassis. Is that correct and could that be the rational here? George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: 1kW per square meter.......free
Just a related thought here. I read last year in Science news weekly, that the world wide availble power from offshore wave action is about 72 terawatts. Its efficiently harvested in about 300 feet of water, before the waves dissapate on sandbars etc. The platform technology is based (ironically perhaps) on oil drilling rigs. The cost per kwhr is supposedly competitive with wind power (6 to 7 cents/kwhr if memory serves.) With that kind of steady supply of energy, one could convert water to hydrogen and oxygen, use the hydrogen to power cars and forget about oil, more or less. There are a few details of course. Regards George Stults -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 11:52 AM To: Scott Lacey; Ted Rook Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: 1kW per square meter...free More accurately, it is not energy efficiency but energy storage volumetric efficiency, or the ability to store large amounts of energy densely that is important in a vehicle. An electric motor is much more efficient than an internal combustion engine, but that is more than offset by the poor energy density (and mass) of batteries compared to gasoline or other chemical fuels. -- From: Scott Lacey sco...@world.std.com To: Ted Rook t...@crestaudio.com Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: 1kW per square meter...free Date: Sat, Jun 8, 2002, 12:15 PM Ted, While most alternative energy schemes sound very promising, energy efficiency problems make most of them impractical for real world use. Small solar charging systems are great for maintaining a charge on a seldom used battery in a spare automobile, or similar application, but the ratio of charge time to usage has to be large. The problems with a solar powered automobile would be: 1) Lots of expensive (and unsightly) solar panels plus the numerous serial and parallel connections needed to make a usable system. Even then, the car would have to be parked in the sunlight many more hours than it was driven. 2) An expensive buck/boost charge controller to compensate for the enormous voltage variations due to weather. 3) A trunk full of heavy, expensive batteries, with their need to be eventually replaced. 4) And finally, how would the batteries be charged if it rained for four or five days straight? The hybrid gas/electric vehicles seem to be the only practical electric vehicles made so far. And even these seem to be expensive enough that sales have to be subsidized. I know people who have tried to use solar dc electrical systems at remote camps. You have to strictly ration electrical usage even if you only use the place on weekends after it has charged all week. Most people eventually revert to using combinations of propane, gasoline, and kerosene for light and cooking. A gallon of Coleman fuel will last a week running a stove and some lights. As to the energy efficiency of gasoline, years ago I watched a demonstration where a homemade mortar lobbed a sand-filled beer can hundreds of yards using a SPOONFUL of gasoline! It graphically proved the point about why it is so hard to replace the internal combution engine. Scott Lacey On 7 Jun 2002 at 13:52, Ted Rook wrote: sorry, off topic, mostly for US residents: just imagine everyone's car being coated with 'solar cell generator' material with a storage device in the trunk.. and how about air-conditioners that run on the Stirling cycle from a solar energy collector... lousy for the oil lobby but fantastic for the human race --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher
coherent noise
Hello Group, I'm considering the following problem having to do with effect of coherent (or synchronized) noise versus non-coherent (or asynchronous) noise on a device with several I/O cables. The EUT would be described as follows: A computer with 4 Ethernet ports. For this example I'll PING the lines as a method of putting traffic on them. [AFIK the standard calls for pseudorandom traffic whereas PING is fairly periodic, but this is easier to describe for now]. Anyway, I can provide the PING traffic in one of two ways. [NOTE - PING refers to a program that repetitively sends an address query out the Ethernet port and reports whether it got a reply] Method one is to connect all 4 Ethernet Ports to a single HUB and plug in a second computer to same HUB to send a PING to the EUT. That way the same signal is traveling down 4 lines at the same time, more or less in phase [depending the details of the HUB construction]. The second method is to use one computer per port (4 external computers) to each run the PING program separately. In this case the PING traffic is asynchronous because each source is separate. I know from experience that the second method is quieter from the standpoint of radiated emissions using quasi peak detection. I assume that the main reason is that quasi-peak averages them down since they're not in phase. And vice versa. All the above is to describe a typical example of the problem. What I'm looking for is a method to quantify or predict the gain or loss in terms of quasi peak detection for an EUT with synchronized versus asynchronous signals over multiple I/O cables. Any thoughts appreciated - thanks in advance George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Safety Certs - custom lamps
Hello Group, I am forwarding this question for a colleague who resides in Washington state, USA. Basically he would like to create, on a commercial basis, custom lighting (lamp fixtures), both portable (carry and plug in) , and permanent (built into a house). However, building inspectors etc want to see a safety mark for these creations. (UL or CSA or NRTL etc.) He is looking for advice about how a small business can economically and efficiently achieve safety certification for one-of-a-kind custom lighting fixtures. Thanks in advance George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Voltage Spikes on Power Lines etc
Hi Folks, I am trying right now to convince some folks that power line voltage spike problems can be and usually are severe enough to degrade or kill ITE products that don't have adequate over-voltage protection. I found a link using Google that describes the problems [ http://www.kalglo.com/powrline.htm ] but I'm looking for additional links to specifics or summaries if any one knows of such. Thanks in advance. George S. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: BSMI Test Data Expiration
The situation has changed considerably. See the email attachment from dh...@approvalspecialists.com mailto:dh...@approvalspecialists.comon March 7. -Original Message- From: Pittman, Bud [mailto:bpitt...@lsil.com] Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 12:54 PM To: 'Collins, Jeffrey'; 'emc-p...@ieee.org' Subject: RE: BSMI Test Data Expiration Hello: As far as BSMI data, the time period varies. Last year my lab was audited by the BSMI because I submitted data over six months old. When the auditor from Taiwan was here he said that they would not accept data over 1 year old and six month old data would be questionable. In my case since the audit went well they thought that they would accept 6 - 12 month data without further question. I cannot provide chapter and verse on this since it seems to be up to the auditor. The two auditors that were here were very cooperative and gave us some good tips on how the BSMI likes to see their data. Another issue that came up was the use of BSMI approved support systems. The BSMI wants you to use peripherals or host systems that have BSMI approval, unless they are hard to obtain(Again variable). In the case of Class B equipment, they said that PC equipment is easy to obtain so all EUT and support systems should have the BSMI approval. For Class A equipment they would be more understanding. At first the BSMI wanted us to ship systems to their designated laboratory in Taiwan and provide engineering assistance, plus an interpreter, for the testing. We were able to convince them to audit our lab, saving much cost and giving them the confidence that our data would be valid. Bud Pittman Compliance Engineer LSI Logic Storage Systems, Inc. - Wichita KS bud.pitt...@lsil.com Tel 316-636-8718 Fax 316-636-8321 -Original Message- From: Collins, Jeffrey [ mailto:jcoll...@ciena.com mailto:jcoll...@ciena.com ] Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 12:11 PM To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org' Subject: RE: BSMI Test Data Expiration Hello Group, I am researching an issue with the BSMI standards regarding Information Technology equipment. Does anyone know how long the test data is valid before you can't submit it to BSMI for certification? Be advised our test data was taken with the appropriate limits, documentation and at a BSMI approved test lab but was submitted to BSMI at a later date.( When we got a customer in Taiwan ) I've so far received responses from 6 months to forever. (As long as the product did not change) I here that some companies are retesting their products every six months for BSMI submittal. Can you provide me with your insight on this subject matter with the appropriate chapter and verse addressing this issue. The original BSMI documents are in Chinese so I've had to depend on translated versions thus far. Thanks in advance, Jeffrey Collins Sr. HW Engineering Manager EMC/ NEBS/ Safety/ Reliability CIENA Core Switching Division 10480 Ridgeview Court, Cupertino, CA. 95014 (408) 366-4806, Fax (408) 366-4866 jcoll...@ciena.com http://www.ciena.com http://www.ciena.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
ventilation holes
Hi Folks, I have a safety question for the group. I have a small (about 8 x 10 x 2 inch) piece of ITE equipment, SELV, enclosed in a plastic case, powered by an external 12 volt brick from AC mains. The problem is, the device tends to run a little hotter than desired. One proposed solution is to cut some vent holes in the top. These would be roughly (1/2) inch long by (1/6) inch wide, spaced (1/4) inch apart, running across the top near the front of the device. I haven't seen many (any?) devices with vent holes in the top, so I'm wondering if there is a basic reason why not, such as the cover must shed water, etc. My questions are, what considerations arise and what sections of EN 60950 apply to this, either to allow it or to exclude it. Thanks in advance George S. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Clean class B test bed
Hi Tony, I was in the same position last year. Dell Dimension 500 MHz was recommended to me. I bought mine refurbished and ended up with a faster motherboard. I ordered two of them which was a good thing because the shield was bad on one of the keyboards. For a monitor I used a NEC MultiSync LCD 1530v. Same problem, I ordered two of them and a shield or something similar was broken on one of them, but the other worked fine for Class B. Good Luck, George Stults WatchGuard Technologies Inc. -Original Message- From: Tony [mailto:raym...@bellsouth.net] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 11:19 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Clean class B test bed Hello, I am looking to find a clean Class B test bed (PC) for radiated emission testing. If anyone knows of such a thing please post the manufacturer, model number, any other information I would need to acquire one for use here. Thanks for the help. Tony Rayman
RE: Car EMC, was bulk current injection testing
Depending on the type of Cell phone I don't think you'd need to jam it. For analog, just acquire the frequency in use and transmit the tone/signal for 'END' to hang it up. The cell site will disconnect the call. (Please Note: This is my theory - not a reported experiment.) For digital you'd have to figure out what (CDMA/TDMA/GSM) channel is in use, a little harder, and with digital, the encryption scheme might also get in the way. I don't really know. But, at least its fun to think about while your following the car slowly down the road -George S. -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 1:32 PM To: Chris Maxwell; Cortland Richmond Cc: scott@jci.com; michael.sundst...@nokia.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Re: Car EMC, was bulk current injection testing A lot of humor is based on a deliberate misinterpretation of a common phrase or common wisdom. Take my wife, PLEASE, Or the cute stress relief advice I got the other day. To relieve a headache, fetch a bottle of aspirin and follow the directions: Take two aspirin and keep away from children. In this case the apparent contradiction is not one at all. The automobile requirements enforced on emissions protect radio receivers in other automobiles and fixed radio receivers operating near roads, the immunity requirements protect your car from malfunctioning when Mr. Richmond's rolling radio station is in the vicinity. Emission limits protect broadcast radio reception, while immunity limits protect non-antenna equipment from high powered transmissions. Not wishing to start another long thread, but I know I am not alone in fantasizing about building a cell-phone jammer and operating it with glee when I follow some slow driver weaving down the road ahead of me with a phone cemented to his/her ear. on 1/10/02 4:03 PM, Chris Maxwell at chris.maxw...@nettest.com wrote: That's interesting!! (See Cortland's message below) We as manufacturers have CENELEC and the FCC breathing down our neck over a few dBuV/m. We have the IEEE EMC and Functional Safety paper, all 50 some pages of it, worried about the possibly catastrophic effects of a Palm Pilot next to a crock pot. Meanwhile...Cortland (KA5S which stands for Kills your Auto for 5 Seconds) here is running around town with 100Watts of electronic ignition stopping transmitter wired to his car. I mean, I like the job security of being a compliance guy and all... but why do we bother? (Just meant as humor; I hope no offense is taken. However, if you think about it, all humor (including this email) needs to have a grain of truth to be funny. Chris Maxwell | Design Engineer - Optical Division email chris.maxw...@nettest.com | dir +1 315 266 5128 | fax +1 315 797 8024 NetTest | 6 Rhoads Drive, Utica, NY 13502 | USA web www.nettest.com | tel +1 315 797 4449 | -Original Message- From: Cortland Richmond [SMTP:cortland.richm...@alcatel.com] Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 1:30 PM To: Ken Javor Cc: scott@jci.com; michael.sundst...@nokia.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: ISO 11452-4 Bulk Current Injection Test Requirements A worst case -- real world -- is probably just behind a radio equipped car, mounting a capacitively top-loaded antenna at its rear edge, and about 600 watts of RF. With rather less power, 100 watts, I've occasionally seen adjacent cars' engines stop when I transmit. It would be interesting to see if RF at these levels got into electric cars' motor controllers. Cortland - KA5S (What I write here is mine alone. My employer does not Concur, agree or else endorse These words, their mood, or thought.) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:
RE: EMC-related safety issues
As I recall, a tank of gasohol and a long trip down the freeway beforehand was another method. Of course it didn't work as well if you then got in a long waiting line for the test. -George S. -Original Message- From: Doug McKean [mailto:dmck...@auspex.com] Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 2:37 PM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject:Re: EMC-related safety issues RE: EMC-related safety issuesKyle Ehler wrote: Another point of trivia is that a fresh oil change and new air filter prior to having your vehicle smog tested will improve the emissions results. At one time there was available OTC a fuel additive that one could deploy to further skew the results in your favor. I knew a guy who drilled a small hole in the side of his carborator, attatched a hose setup that you would use for an acquirium the other end of which was put into a water bottle. While the car was in idle, he'd adjust a valve on the hose to a slow drip of water into the carborator. This setup was on an old truck of his and he always got terrifically low emissions readings. - Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: -2dB margin
After talking with some other folks, I've found that one can concoct a 2 dB margin from CISPR 22 [the section I mentioned below] as follows: Using the formula for statistically assessed compliance Xavg + K*StdDev Limit, assume that the StdDev is 1.0 and that you are initially testing one device as permitted. Then take the value of [K =2.04] for [n=3] and you have a 2.04 dB margin requirement for the initial device. The standard also requires that if you just test one device, that you do subsequent tests from time to time. So in effect, by going with a 2dB margin the first time, you're betting that the statistics will still be in your favor by the time you've tested 3 samples. Does anyone disagree that it could be done this way? An additional question would be, how is from time to time defined. Is it spelled out anywhere? George S. -Original Message- From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 8:39 AM To: George Stults; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject:RE: -2dB margin Just got back from Christmas vacation, but I'll wade in now... There is nothing in CISPR 22 that refers to a 2 dB margin for compliance when a single sample is tested. The only document I ever recall seeing that requirement in is VDE 0871/6.78, paragraph 4.1.3.1. This document was published in 1978 and is long obsolete. I suspect that many people got used to the 2 dB margin requirement from dealing with the VDE in years past and it is now part of the folklore of EMC testing. Ghery S. Pettit Intel -Original Message- From: George Stults [mailto:george.stu...@watchguard.com] Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 11:43 AM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: -2dB margin Hello Group, I've been looking into the 80/80 rule for CISPR 22 compliance for mass produced equipment. I have found a description of the statistics in CISPR 22 :1997 Section 7.1 and 7.2. Its been my understanding that for testing at OATS, if the product has 2dB or less margin, then these statistical methods are required. Is that correct? And, where does the reference to '2dB margin' come from? Thanks in advance George S. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: EMI guard bands
It seems like there are two issues here. The first would be the variability for identical products using the same test setup at the same test lab. I think that's what this thread is about so far. The second issue would be the variability for a given product and test setup at different test labs. For the second situation, I've heard that 6 dB is about all you can count on, when you set up and do the test yourself. 15 dB or so if the lab or someone else does it. So how much does the second issue matter? Only if your test results are challenged I suppose. Two more cents George -Original Message- From: Gary McInturff [mailto:gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:19 AM To: Doug McKean; EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject:RE: EMI guard bands I hold with the 3 db under class B, as well as A. The only effective argument, in my mind, is the uncertainty of measurement issue. Beyond that I find that if I have 3 db everywhere my measurements next time down with that product or with one off the shelf have also been compliant. So if pragmatic repeated measurements is telling me I'm in then I am not going to spend the time and money to make even more sure that I am in. The goal is to not interfere with communications not to be invisible at all costs. If it ain't broke I'm not fixing it. Obviously, others disagree. By the way if a customer requests it, they get what they want, if they want to pay for it, and I have never rejected products with a 3 db band - and they haven't bitten me yet either. My couple cents Gary -Original Message- From: Doug McKean [mailto:dmck...@auspex.com] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 3:15 PM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: Re: EMI guard bands Tania Grant wrote: Amund, My minimum criteria and recommendation has always been at least 6dB. However, how many engineering managers, upon finding a 1.5 dB margin in their favor, rule ship it! nod Although in some markets, there are customers who require -6dB under the Class A limit. Although if I had it my way, I'd make it about -10dB under the limit. - Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Power supply markings
Hello Group, A colleague of mine believes that there is such a thing as a CB mark, because he has seen it on a power supply. I have assured him that there is no such mark, only the CB Scheme with CB Test Reports and CB Test Certificates. This incident would have been a couple of years ago. The type of power supply in question was 100/220v 50/60 HZ either internal or external used to power ITE.The only reason I can come up with for such a 'mark' would be that someone in a marketing department wanted it on there. Has anyone seen a similar situation? Does anyone have a different perspective or thoughts on this? Thanks in advance, George Stults Compliance Engineer WatchGuard Technologies Inc. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
virus targeting list?
Hello Group, This is a little off topic but possibly of interest. I just received an email from a location in Mexico, from someone I don't know at some college, that contained the virus 'sircam.' I thought it might be of interest because EMCPSTC is the only forum I'm monitoring and responding to, so I'm guessing that someone on the list got hit and that it may be that many of you will see it as well. Here is a link that talks about it: http://www.datafellows.com/v-descs/sircam.shtml The message you'll see is like this: From: [user@address] To: [user@address] Subject: [document name without extension] Hi! How are you? 'I send you this file in order to have your advice' or 'I hope you can help me with this file that I send' or 'I hope you like the file that I sendo you' or 'This is the file with the information that you ask for' See you later. Thanks If a system's language is set to Spanish the worm sends messages in Spanish: Hola como estas ? 'Te mando este archivo para que me des tu punto de vista' or 'Espero me puedas ayudar con el archivo que te mando' or 'Espero te guste este archivo que te mando' or 'Este es el archivo con la informaci n que me pediste' Nos vemos pronto, gracias. Needless to say, delete it. Regards, George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: board scanning on the cheap (sort of)
I think your talking about Kirlian photography.Here is something verbatim from a web page that deals with it. http://www.synergy-co.com/kirlian.html#equipment Equipment Used to Produce Kirlian Images Kirlian photographs are created utilizing a metal plate, and a generator or oscillator to produce a high voltage field of variable pulse and frequency. There is no light used in this process. Through the action of high frequency fields, electrons are emitted from the body of an organism and this energy is dissipated into a photographic emulsion, as light would be. Different colors or shadings appear in a brilliant corona surrounding the object, depending upon the type of film used. I think the light source is Cherenkov radiation which I understand to be photons emitted when electrons move to lower energy orbits. Presumably the applied high frequency field energizes the atoms and moves the electrons to higher energy states? That might be an interesting way to find points for ESD testing? Perhaps it shows where the field tends to concentrate. The Kirlian pictures are always seem to have pointy fields. Well, that's at least 2 cents. -George -Original Message- From: geor...@lexmark.com [mailto:geor...@lexmark.com] Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 1:00 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject:board scanning on the cheap (sort of) Well, this discussion has reached the point where I must add something I read about some years ago. It goes something like this: For many years, Russia was known to conduct many experiments involving paranormal activity, probably to determine if there were any military value in such phenomena as psychic communications etc., if in fact they existed. I was surprised to see an article in a National Geographic years ago that told of one such experiment. It involved photography of the aura (presumably electromagnetic fields) that surround the human body. The peaks in this aura, or field were found to be consistent with the primary acupuncture points long before identified by the Chinese. A faith (hand-on) healing was photographed, revealing that the aura of the healer diminished during the process while the aura of the person being healed increased, i.e. a possible transfer of energy. The point of all this is if the Russians truly developed a means to photograph the low power EMF surrounding humans, it would seem that the same technique would also photograph the EMF surrounding PCBs etc. I have no comment on whether any of the above is true science, but I DID read it in the generally respected National Geographic, albeit not a scientific journal. George Alspaugh --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle)
--- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: SONET ESD performance
Hello Martin, Scott, In the for what its worth category, in a previous life I worked with Fibre Channel which also has an official error rate in the 10^-12 range. I don't recall which standard covers Fibre Channel but the error rate is familiar. What was interesting is the rational for the error rate. For Fibre Channel with a 1.0625 GB bit rate, 10^-12 bit errors per bit would amount to one error in approximately 15 minuites. It turns out that such an error rate is unacceptably high for Fibre Channel, and presumably for the OC-48 interface.The published limit was based on what could reasonably be tested as opposed to expected actual performance. A working Fibre Channel interface generally wont have even 1 error in 2 or 3 years of operation, but that's not trivial to measure. You'd need to another factor of 10^-5 for the three year test. Best Regards George Stults [own opinions only] -Original Message- From: Martin Garwood [mailto:mgarw...@approvalspecialists.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 8:01 PM To: Scott Lemon; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Re: SONET ESD performance Scott, The permissible errors relate back to your system specification (IRS) as it relates to BERs. For an OC-48 interface you may be working off a rate of around 10^-12 and it only takes a few weeks to test that !!, so the easiest and short answer is, no bit errors should be observed during the ESD testing for optical (read high speed) interfaces. The statement regarding 1 errored second per discharge is the default should your system spec fail to address bit errors (not likely). My 2c. Best Regards, Martin. - Original Message - From: Scott Lemon sle...@caspiannetworks.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 11:43 AM Subject: SONET ESD performance Hi group, I am looking for guidance with respect to allowable service-affecting responses for a SONET system (e.g. OC-48) when tested to GR-1089 ESD immunity requirements. GR-1089 R2-3 states that service-affecting responses, unless within system operating limits,...shall not occur. Para. 2.3 gives maximum of one errored second per discharge as a limit on bit errors, but no other specific guidance. Anyone out there willing to share their GR-1089 pass/fail criteria for ESD testing on a SONET system with respect to performance during the discharge?? Are there any documents that are recommended as reference? Thanks in advance! Regards, Scott Lemon sle...@caspiannetworks.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: How Safe ???
Speaking of frivolous litigation, safety and otherwise, it seems that financial gain (particularly on the part of the lawyer) is the motivator as often as stupidity. This link has many such stories. http://www.overlawyered.com/ Regards, George Stults WatchGuard Technologies Inc. -Original Message- From: oover...@lexmark.com [mailto:oover...@lexmark.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 5:26 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:How Safe ??? In light of the recent e-traffic on labels, warnings, and litigation I think that this is a good article. A better rant than I could write (and have written). When you need a break ... ___ By Mark Morford morning...@sfgate.com All contents, except the swearing and the random blasphemy, (tm) (c) 2001 Hearst Communications Inc. MARK'S NOTES ERRATA Where opinion meets benign syntax abuse... *** Twenty-one-year-old college student bangs and rocks and tilts 900-pound Coke machine to dislodge a can of soda. Coke machine finally tips over on top of college student. College student dies. College student's parents sue Coca-Cola, vending-machine manufacturer, and school, claiming there should've been some sort of warning. The gods of Fate and Destiny shake their heads and sigh. This is a true story. Coke begins placing cautionary stickers on vending machines: Warning: Tipping may cause injury or death. This part is also true. Many employees at the vending machine company undoubtedly got a good laugh out of this, wondered what's next, stickers on fine cutlery saying Warning: Inserting butcher knife into body may cause injury or death? Or perhaps on large bridges: Warning: Leaping off may cause death or at least a bad headache. Buses? Warning: Do not step in front of this vehicle or you might die in a manner everyone jokes about and then how would you feel? The list goes on, and it too may cause injury or death. Oh how the jokes were flying, yes indeed, much like they probably were at snide ol' McDonald's HQ a few years back when that old woman spilled hot coffee on herself and sued because the coffee was too hot and it burned her and everyone knows coffee is supposed to be lukewarm and pleasing and mild. She won her case. The jokes stopped. And the cynicism began. And let us pause for a moment to pay our respects to what must be a horrendous level of sadness and loss for the family in question, what can only be a miserable and terrible event in the life of a parent. There is genuine sorrow and rage here and the need to assign blame and of course it can't be laid at the feet of the college student in question because he was clearly the innocent victim of a malicious vending machine attack and we as humans can *not* be held responsible for our frequent lapses of judgement or common sense, can we? Can we? Because after all this kid was just being a typical mindless male and was likely just following the behavior of other students who he'd seen bash the machine to score a free Mountain Dew and besides someone at the school probably knew the machine was kinda tippy and folks at the vending machine company probably knew those old models weren't as completely secure as the newer versions. But hey, it's not like the machines were malevolent capsizing demons just lying in wait for the next hapless student to come along and breathe on them wrong and then, whump. It is not as if this laptop computer right here in front of me is right this minute poised to to electrocute me if I decide to slam the lid repeatedly to get it to unfreeze. See that big bookshelf in the library? Pull on it too hard, it'll probably fall over on you. Should you sue the shelf manufacturer? The book authors? Gravity? What if our college boy had climbed atop the Coke machine and jumped off and broken his neck? Is the manufacturer responsible? The shoe company? The concrete floor? Where do you draw the line? This is the ultimate question. It's an ever-shifting line in the sand of human stupidity, a vague cultural boundary defining how much we expect our products and corporations to protect us from ourselves and how much we're willing to be answerable for our actions, a line dividing how logic-impaired we're willing to admit we sometimes are and how responsible a given corporation should be for dumping shoddy and/or dangerous products on the market without warning. In a perfect world (like, you know, Atlantis), it's a fair distribution of both, an equal balance of good faith: people take full responsibility for their lives and actions and don't blame the government or the media or God or big mean corporations when they themselves are caught in incredibly dumb behavior; and concomitantly, thuggish corporations and the government take full responsibility for their products and services and don't try to duck and shirk and scam and dance around the law and pretend
LCD Monitors etc.
Hello All, I have theorized that a Liquid Crystal Display (LCD) monitors should have less radiated emission than a comparabe CRT (same viewing area) since there is no high voltage tube and high powered oscillators, etc. I am wondering if anyone can confirm or deny this rumor based on actual testing. Also If there are folks in the crowd who sell LCD monitors, I would like to hear from you offline. And to follow up an earlier question that I asked the group about quiet test equipment, I did an experiment as follows: I purchased and tested a Fujitsu LifeBook B-2175 (500 MHz laptop). As a 'Best Case' I tested it stand alone, battery operated, no cables, just running MS Word with an 'HHH' pattern on the screen (I'm guessing that the pattern made no difference on the LCD screen). In that configuration, it was 4.4 dB over class B. I think the test site claims an measurement uncertainty of 4 dB. Anything else I did, connecting cables etc, made it worse. The lap top in question has a magnesium case and gives the appearance of quality construction. Given the 80/20 rule, the production process could be compliant and I wouldn't know any different, but I wonder if there is such a thing as a Class B laptop in the real world? Best Regards George Stults WatchGuard Technologies Inc. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: Typing Shortcuts
And then there is this one: SNAFU Situation Normal, All 'Fouled' Up Regards, George Stults -Original Message- From: paul_j_sm...@notes.teradyne.com [mailto:paul_j_sm...@notes.teradyne.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 1:31 PM To: Massey, Doug C. Cc: 'IEEE Forum' Subject: RE: Typing Shortcuts FUBAR Failed UniBus Address Register [DEC Engineering] F%^ed Up Beyond All Recognition [US military, WWII] FUBARD (past tense of) FUBAR Massey, Doug C. masse...@ems-t.com@majordomo.ieee.org on 06/13/2001 02:14:47 PM Please respond to Massey, Doug C. masse...@ems-t.com Sent by: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org To: 'IEEE Forum' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc: Subject: RE: Typing Shortcuts Here's some - N/A - Not Applicable PCB - Printed Circuit Board PCA - Printed Circuit Assembly ASAP - As Soon As Possible et al - and others e.g. - for example FUBAR - F*@#ed Up Beyond All Repair LMAO - Laughed My A$$ Off e.g, My PM told my FM, et al, that we need the CPU PCA working ASAP, but it failed EMI EMC pre-testing badly, so I told them it was FUBAR and LMAO. By The Way, I know what BTW stands for Doug -Original Message- From: rehel...@mmm.com [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 12:19 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Typing Shortcuts Over time I have come across many typing shortcuts using the English language, such as: OTOH - on the other hand WRT - with regard to BTW - (I am still trying to figure out this one) Can someone please list the more common ones? I sometimes strain my brain trying to figure them out and they are in my own language. It must be terribly confusing to most of our world-wide colleagues. Thanks, Bob Heller 3M Product Safety, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
VCCI - is it voluntary?
Hi All, Just a basic question here about VCCI, hopefully it hasn't been done recently. In the acronym VCCI, (Voluntary Control Council for Interference) the first word is 'Voluntary.' I have assumed that VCCI is a defacto standard in spite of being called 'Voluntary,' but I don't know how to prove it - and of course I could be wrong. Does anyone know of a specific document or clause or line of argument that clearly spells out whether or not VCCI is a requirement to sell ITE products in Japan? Thanks in advance for comments. George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
quiet support equipment
Hello All, I'm testing a Class B computer peripheral and looking for recommendations as to 'quiet' support equipment that I can obtain in the USA. I'm looking for an Intel based computer; laptop or table top, ethernet card (NIC) monitor. 10/100 base-t hub printer So far, I plan to go with a Dell Dimension 4100 pc, with a 3Com ethernet card, and a Sony Multisync monitor, and either a Cisco or 3Com Hub. I don't have any clue about the printer yet. Does anyone have any other recommendations? Thanks in advance for any info or advice. George Stults WatchGuard Technologies Inc. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: GS Requirements (fwd)
So what are the commerical facts in this case? For instance, is anyone aware of ITE equipment that is sold in Germany with only a CE mark, and no GS, TUV, VDE, etc. ? George Stults CTS, Seattle WA Mike you area correct. No state law may exist that is in conflict with the EMC Directive. Let us assume that the German beer industry determines that rays from Kryptonite harms beer production, so a law is passed that bans the element from being imported into Germany. Is this law legal? What if I use the element inside my pc in order to produce super high processor speeds? Is my product protected by a Directive? Sorry, I am out of luck. The law is legal because it is not in conflict with any Directive. -- From: Mike Hopkins[SMTP:mhopk...@keytek.com] Sent: Friday, April 24, 1998 12:05 PM To: WOODS, RICHARD Cc: '@IEEE' Subject:RE: GS Requirements I believe everything you say is correct; however, if you read the first page of the EMC Directive (if you can get throught the Wheras's and Wherefore's) it says the following (paraphrased): Member states have mandatory EMC requirments, these requirements don't necessarily lead to different protection levels, but ...do, by their disparity, hinder trade within the community. EMC must be ... harmonized to guarentee the free movement of electrical and electronic apparatus without lowering existing and justified levels of protection... Recognizing the need for free movement of trade, barriers currently existing to intra-community trade must be recognized where there are safety issues, harmonization must be confined to EMC, ... these requiremts must replace the corresponding national provisions. It goes on to allow national standards be used in the interim until counties all adopt the EMC directive Anyway, it seems clear that any national standard the restricts trade based on additional technical requirements -- beyond CE requirements -- IS in direct conflict with the directive. Well, that was fun, but all I have time for. They rest of you are now free to tear it apart!! Have a ball. Mike Hopkins mhopk...@keytek.com -Original Message- From: WOODS, RICHARD [SMTP:wo...@sensormatic.com] Sent: Friday, April 24, 1998 11:43 AM To: Mike Hopkins Cc: '@IEEE' Subject: RE: GS Requirements How quickly we forget. Recall that the Low Voltage Directive was issue in 1973 and was in effect over 10 years before the EMC Directive became effective. So what was the status of local EMC laws during this 10 year period? Since there was no EMC Directive, each state had their own law. Remember the legal need to have emissions testing to the VDE limits? The existance of the Low Voltage Directive had no bearing on the local EMC laws or any other state laws not in conflict with the Low Voltage Directive. It is nonsense to say that this situation has now changed just because the EMC Directrive is active. The CE mark denotes compliance with all relevant Directives - that is all it denotes. Each state can still have laws that affect the sale and use of equipment as long as the laws are not in conflict with any Directives. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics wo...@sensormatic.com Views expressed by the author do not necessarily represent those of Sensormatic. -- From: Mike Hopkins[SMTP:mhopk...@keytek.com] Reply To: Mike Hopkins Sent: Friday, April 24, 1998 9:16 AM To: WOODS, RICHARD Cc: '@IEEE' Subject:RE: GS Requirements I don't believe Germany or any other EU country can impose additional legal restraints on the importation or use of equipment beyond the CE requirements. If this were allowed, each nation could, and probably would, impose additional restrictive requirements for the importation and use of products in their country -- exactly what the EU is trying to avoid. This said, any CUSTOMER can then decide what criteria a product must meet before purchasing it, but that's a negotiation between the customer and the supplier -- not a legal restraint or condition of trade. -Original Message- From: WOODS, RICHARD [SMTP:wo...@sensormatic.com] Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 4:32 PM To: 'emc-pstc' Subject: RE: GS Requirements Did I miss something along the way? Did Germany delete the Equipment Safety Law of 24 June 1968 and ammended 13th August 1980? Article 3 of the law says, The manufacturer or importer of technical equipment may only display or put into circulation if it is of such a nature, in accordance with the generally recognized rules of technology and the work safety and accident prevention
Re: ITE vs Israel
I recently contacted Alan Clayman with Israel Testing Labratories web page: www.itl.co.il concerning another question and he was most helpful. There can be more involved than just meeting the regulations, once you find out what they are. There may also be other government approvals in order to ship to Israel. Based on my brief experience thus far, it appears that if you meet FCC UL/CSA requirements, you are at least well begun. -- George Stults HW Test Engr. CTS, Seattle WA
Israel
Greetings, Can anyone tell me whether CE or FCC UL/CSA are accepted in Israel for a wireless telecom product? Or perhaps what agency I could contact to find out more? Many Thanks -- George Stults CTS, Seattle WA
asian emi regulations
Hello, I am currently trying to find information about the EMI/EMC regulatory requirements for shipping to various countries in Asia, such as China, Thailand, etc. The type equipment is used with wireless telecom and would have to meet CISPR22B standards in Europe. Does anyone know of a good source for information on regulations for these countries? Thanks George Stults Hardware Test Engineer Celluar Technical Services (206) 733-8185 phone (206) 443-1550 fax
