Re: What about 480 VAC in Europe? RE: 2 Phases in North America
Hello Andrew, et al; World Electricity Supplies which has been referenced in this thread is available from the Int'l Product Safety Bookshop which can be found on the Safety Link at: www.safetylink.com/bookshop.html Regards, Art Michael -- On Fri, 18 Jan 2002, Andrew Carson wrote: Peter The star distribution with the center point neutral runs from the distribution grid substation to the facility. So the utility company provides the consumer with the four wires, which they then distribute as required. In a residential area, the three phases are split every third house, providing each residence with a single phase and a neutral. The logic here is that if one phase fails, the whole street is not plunged into darkness. A very good handbook I recommend is World Electricity Supplies published by BSi Standards. Covers all the worlds distribution voltages up to 22kV grid level. Plus shows you what phase configuration is used by the generator to distribute the power. Peter Tarver wrote: Andrew - Please clarify something for me. Is the utility distribution star configured (WYE connected), rather than DELTA? Or are you speaking only wrt typical distribution within a building? (In the US, distribution is generally used to reference utility power distribution, for instance, distribution transformer, as opposed to facility transformer.) I ask because DELTA is used by utilities in the US and Canada to simplify connections save the unnecessary cost of running a Neutral (star reference point conductor) between distribution transformers (or so it was 'splained to me, Lucy). Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com From: Andrew Carson Terry Then nominal EU phase to phase voltage is 400VAC with a +6/-10% Tolerance. Distribution is Three Phase Star, Earthed Neutral. Snip Andrew Carson - Senior Compliance Engineer, Xyratex, UK Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014 -- Andrew Carson - Senior Compliance Engineer, Xyratex, UK Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: What about 480 VAC in Europe? RE: 2 Phases in North America
John is correct, the official UK voltage is 230/400VAC. Just what comes out the wall socket is not necessarily the same. Those strange tolerance limits of of 230 +6%/-10% were carefully chosen so the European suppliers could meet the harmonized level without having to make many chances. Crabb, John wrote: Just to clarify the position in the UK, although it was stated belowthat the nominal voltage is 415V, I am almost certain that the DECLAREDVOLTAGE is 400V. I base this on the fact that domestic consumerswere advised that the declared voltage changed from 240V to 230V, and 230 X 1.732 = 400V, and my 1996 BSI World Electricity Suppliesshows the UK voltage (and the Italy voltage) to be 400/230V.In practice, the voltage didn't change - we went from 240 +/- 6%= 225.6 - 254.4, to 230 -6%/+10% = 216.2 - 253, and the old voltagefits within the window of the new voltage, if you accept that 253 and254.4 are near enough the same.Regards,John Crabb, Development Excellence (Product Safety) , NCR Financial Solutions Group Ltd., Discovery Centre, 3 Fulton Road, Dundee, Scotland, DD2 4SW E-Mail :john.cr...@scotland.ncr.com Tel: +44 (0)1382-592289 (direct ). Fax +44 (0)1382-622243. VoicePlus 6-341-2289. -Original Message- From: Paolo Gemma [mailto:paolo.ge...@icn.siemens.it] Sent: 17 January 2002 17:56 To: acar...@uk.xyratex.com Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: What about 480 VAC in Europe? RE: 2 Phases in North America Also Italy have a nominal phase to phase of 380VAC. Ciao Paolo At 11:20 1/17/02 +, Andrew Carson wrote: Terry Then nominal EU phase to phase voltage is 400VAC with a +6/-10% Tolerance. Distribution is Three Phase Star, Earthed Neutral. Some countries are still a little behind in the voltage harmonization e.g.. Belgium is a nominal 380VAC. Other have not changed as they fall within the tolerance limits already, e.g. the UK is a nominal 415VAC Generally with switch mode supplies, provided your incoming wiring feed is changed to take into account the Star and not Delta, configuration. They can accommodate the voltage difference. Terry Meck wrote: High all: I have been away form the forum, very busy, and a quick review notes you have been discussing Power distribution in USA. What about Europe? We have an application needing 480 VAC here in USA. How compatible will 480 VAC be in Europe? Someone told me 390 VAC is more real in Europe. !?! How do you see this 480 VAC being impacted by the EN 61000-3-3 harmonic standard? Thanks for any input in advance! Best regards, Terry J. Meck Senior Compliance/Test Engineer tjm...@accusort.com -- Andrew Carson - Senior Compliance Engineer, Xyratex, UK Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014
Re: What about 480 VAC in Europe? RE: 2 Phases in North America
Peter The star distribution with the center point neutral runs from the distribution grid substation to the facility. So the utility company provides the consumer with the four wires, which they then distribute as required. In a residential area, the three phases are split every third house, providing each residence with a single phase and a neutral. The logic here is that if one phase fails, the whole street is not plunged into darkness. A very good handbook I recommend is World Electricity Supplies published by BSi Standards. Covers all the worlds distribution voltages up to 22kV grid level. Plus shows you what phase configuration is used by the generator to distribute the power. Peter Tarver wrote: Andrew - Please clarify something for me. Is the utility distribution star configured (WYE connected), rather than DELTA? Or are you speaking only wrt typical distribution within a building? (In the US, distribution is generally used to reference utility power distribution, for instance, distribution transformer, as opposed to facility transformer.) I ask because DELTA is used by utilities in the US and Canada to simplify connections save the unnecessary cost of running a Neutral (star reference point conductor) between distribution transformers (or so it was 'splained to me, Lucy). Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com From: Andrew Carson Terry Then nominal EU phase to phase voltage is 400VAC with a +6/-10% Tolerance. Distribution is Three Phase Star, Earthed Neutral. Snip Andrew Carson - Senior Compliance Engineer, Xyratex, UK Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014 -- Andrew Carson - Senior Compliance Engineer, Xyratex, UK Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: What about 480 VAC in Europe? RE: 2 Phases in North America
Just to clarify the position in the UK, although it was stated below that the nominal voltage is 415V, I am almost certain that the DECLARED VOLTAGE is 400V. I base this on the fact that domestic consumers were advised that the declared voltage changed from 240V to 230V, and 230 X 1.732 = 400V, and my 1996 BSI World Electricity Supplies shows the UK voltage (and the Italy voltage) to be 400/230V. In practice, the voltage didn't change - we went from 240 +/- 6% = 225.6 - 254.4, to 230 -6%/+10% = 216.2 - 253, and the old voltage fits within the window of the new voltage, if you accept that 253 and 254.4 are near enough the same. Regards, John Crabb, Development Excellence (Product Safety) , NCR Financial Solutions Group Ltd., Discovery Centre, 3 Fulton Road, Dundee, Scotland, DD2 4SW E-Mail :john.cr...@scotland.ncr.com Tel: +44 (0)1382-592289 (direct ). Fax +44 (0)1382-622243. VoicePlus 6-341-2289. -Original Message- From: Paolo Gemma [mailto:paolo.ge...@icn.siemens.it] Sent: 17 January 2002 17:56 To: acar...@uk.xyratex.com Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: What about 480 VAC in Europe? RE: 2 Phases in North America Also Italy have a nominal phase to phase of 380VAC. Ciao Paolo At 11:20 1/17/02 +, Andrew Carson wrote: Terry Then nominal EU phase to phase voltage is 400VAC with a +6/-10% Tolerance. Distribution is Three Phase Star, Earthed Neutral. Some countries are still a little behind in the voltage harmonization e.g.. Belgium is a nominal 380VAC. Other have not changed as they fall within the tolerance limits already, e.g. the UK is a nominal 415VAC Generally with switch mode supplies, provided your incoming wiring feed is changed to take into account the Star and not Delta, configuration. They can accommodate the voltage difference. Terry Meck wrote: High all: I have been away form the forum, very busy, and a quick review notes you have been discussing Power distribution in USA. What about Europe? We have an application needing 480 VAC here in USA. How compatible will 480 VAC be in Europe? Someone told me 390 VAC is more real in Europe. !?! How do you see this 480 VAC being impacted by the EN 61000-3-3 harmonic standard? Thanks for any input in advance! Best regards, Terry J. Meck Senior Compliance/Test Engineer tjm...@accusort.com
Re: What about 480 VAC in Europe? RE: 2 Phases in North America
Also Italy have a nominal phase to phase of 380VAC. Ciao Paolo At 11:20 1/17/02 +, Andrew Carson wrote: Terry Then nominal EU phase to phase voltage is 400VAC with a +6/-10% Tolerance. Distribution is Three Phase Star, Earthed Neutral. Some countries are still a little behind in the voltage harmonization e.g.. Belgium is a nominal 380VAC. Other have not changed as they fall within the tolerance limits already, e.g. the UK is a nominal 415VAC Generally with switch mode supplies, provided your incoming wiring feed is changed to take into account the Star and not Delta, configuration. They can accommodate the voltage difference. Terry Meck wrote: High all: I have been away form the forum, very busy, and a quick review notes you have been discussing Power distribution in USA. What about Europe? We have an application needing 480 VAC here in USA. How compatible will 480 VAC be in Europe? Someone told me 390 VAC is more real in Europe. !?! How do you see this 480 VAC being impacted by the EN 61000-3-3 harmonic standard? Thanks for any input in advance! Best regards, Terry J. Meck Senior Compliance/Test Engineer tjm...@accusort.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. -- Andrew Carson - Senior Compliance Engineer, Xyratex, UK Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. -- Paolo Gemma Siemens Information and Communication Network spa Microwave Networks MW RD NSA EMC SS Padana sup. KM 158 20060 Cassina de'Pecchi (MI) Italy phone +39 02 9526 6587fax +39 02 9526 6203 mobile +39 348 3690185 e-mail paolo.ge...@icn.siemens.it --
RE: What about 480 VAC in Europe? RE: 2 Phases in North America
Andrew - Please clarify something for me. Is the utility distribution star configured (WYE connected), rather than DELTA? Or are you speaking only wrt typical distribution within a building? (In the US, distribution is generally used to reference utility power distribution, for instance, distribution transformer, as opposed to facility transformer.) I ask because DELTA is used by utilities in the US and Canada to simplify connections save the unnecessary cost of running a Neutral (star reference point conductor) between distribution transformers (or so it was 'splained to me, Lucy). Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com From: Andrew Carson Terry Then nominal EU phase to phase voltage is 400VAC with a +6/-10% Tolerance. Distribution is Three Phase Star, Earthed Neutral. Snip Andrew Carson - Senior Compliance Engineer, Xyratex, UK Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: What about 480 VAC in Europe? RE: 2 Phases in North America
Terry Then nominal EU phase to phase voltage is 400VAC with a +6/-10% Tolerance. Distribution is Three Phase Star, Earthed Neutral. Some countries are still a little behind in the voltage harmonization e.g.. Belgium is a nominal 380VAC. Other have not changed as they fall within the tolerance limits already, e.g. the UK is a nominal 415VAC Generally with switch mode supplies, provided your incoming wiring feed is changed to take into account the Star and not Delta, configuration. They can accommodate the voltage difference. Terry Meck wrote: High all: I have been away form the forum, very busy, and a quick review notes you have been discussing Power distribution in USA. What about Europe? We have an application needing 480 VAC here in USA. How compatible will 480 VAC be in Europe? Someone told me 390 VAC is more real in Europe. !?! How do you see this 480 VAC being impacted by the EN 61000-3-3 harmonic standard? Thanks for any input in advance! Best regards, Terry J. Meck Senior Compliance/Test Engineer tjm...@accusort.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. -- Andrew Carson - Senior Compliance Engineer, Xyratex, UK Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
What about 480 VAC in Europe? RE: 2 Phases in North America
High all: I have been away form the forum, very busy, and a quick review notes you have been discussing Power distribution in USA. What about Europe? We have an application needing 480 VAC here in USA. How compatible will 480 VAC be in Europe? Someone told me 390 VAC is more real in Europe. !?! How do you see this 480 VAC being impacted by the EN 61000-3-3 harmonic standard? Thanks for any input in advance! Best regards, Terry J. Meck Senior Compliance/Test Engineer tjm...@accusort.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Harmonics, WAS: 2 Phases in North America
I read in !emc-pstc that Hans Mellberg emcconsult...@yahoo.com wrote (in 20011218072701.24359.qm...@web13003.mail.yahoo.com) about 'Harmonics, WAS: 2 Phases in North America', on Mon, 17 Dec 2001: A harmonic frequency does NOT imply a multiplier of, but one that sympathetically resonates with the fundamental. Harmonics are integer multiples; it is overtones that are defined in terms of resonances. In many mechanical systems, overtones are not exact harmonic frequencies. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Harmonics, WAS: 2 Phases in North America
If one uses the analogies from tuning forks, then it should be obvious. The first harmonic or the fundamental, is the the first sympathetic resonance of the adjacent tuning fork which happens to be the fundamental. And, it so happens that by definitions the first harmonic IS the fundamental. It is not usually referred to as by the order of; It simply is the first, second, third etc harmonic of the fundamental. A harmonic frequency does NOT imply a multiplier of, but one that sympathetically resonates with the fundamental. = Best Regards Hans Mellberg Regulatory Compliance EMC Design Services Consultant By the Pacific Coast next to Silicon Valley, Santa Cruz, CA, USA 408-507-9694 __ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 2 Phases in North America
As you are well aware, the physics behind acoustics and electromagnetics are very similar. The term overtone definitely has an acoustic pedigree, whereas the term harmonic has been adopted by electrical engineering. But the 1st overtone explicitly contains the info that we are talking about a component at a higher frequency than the fundamental. The term harmonic simply means that the various components are related to each other by ratios of whole numbers, including the number one. The fundamental is the first harmonic. The second harmonic is the first overtone. This seems eminently sensible, intuitively appealing, and as I said previously, these are accepted definitions going back decades in my experience, but likely hundreds of years. Should not be a topic involving lengthy debate. -- From: bogdan matoga bogda...@pacbell.net To: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com Cc: Cortland Richmond 72146@compuserve.com, ieee pstc list emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: 2 Phases in North America Date: Mon, Dec 17, 2001, 1:44 PM Ken: I think that you did not miss too much - my Physics 101 however was over 50 years ago and harmonics were only mentioned in acoustics! Now, who wins? Greetings, Bogdan. Ken Javor wrote: I haven't been following this train but my recollection of definitions from Physics 101 more than a quarter century ago is that the fundamental is the first harmonic. The first overtone is the second harmonic. These are/were accepted definitions. -- From: Cortland Richmond 72146@compuserve.com To: bogdan matoga bogda...@pacbell.net, ieee pstc list emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: 2 Phases in North America Date: Mon, Dec 17, 2001, 12:04 AM If we're smart (are we?) we'll say fundamental, and let whoever wants to argue what 2nd means have the arena all to themselves! I would say there are harmonics of the second order, third order, and so on, to which we refer, in short, as the second and third harmonics (and so on). Don't forget, though, where the terms came from; what IS harmonic motion, hmm? Cortland --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 2 Phases in North America
John Shinn wrote: If we refer back to the series, and refer to the n-th term, we would all be on the same page (and harmonic). And in harmony! Cortland (disclaimer: my views, not Alcatel's!) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 2 Phases in North America
This whole issue boils down to semantics and how we count and use numbers. The first issue is what is a harmonic. A harmonic is a multiple of the fundamental. This can be seen when we look at the Fourier series: V(t) = a(0) + a(1)sin(wt) + a(2)sin(wt) + a(3)sin(wt) + ... where a(n) is the magnitude of the n-th term in the series and w is angular frequency (radians/sec) Then the 0-th term would represent any DC component present, the 1-th (or 1-st) would represent the fundamental, and the 2-th (or 2-nd) would represent 2 times the fundamental, or the second harmonic, etc. If we refer back to the series, and refer to the n-th term, we would all be on the same page (and harmonic). John Shinn, P.E. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of lfresea...@aol.com Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:52 AM To: mhopk...@thermokeytek.com; bogda...@pacbell.net; cortland.richm...@alcatel.com Cc: r...@canoga.com; john...@itesafety.com; bar...@melbpc.org.au; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: 2 Phases in North America Mike, I don't go with you on this one... 0 implies nothing ( prehaps 0 ac ) ... therefore the 0th harmonic is dc??? if a squarewave is made up of odd harmonics, we would have to rethink that, correct? Derek. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 2 Phases in North America
Ken: I think that you did not miss too much - my Physics 101 however was over 50 years ago and harmonics were only mentioned in acoustics! Now, who wins? Greetings, Bogdan. Ken Javor wrote: I haven't been following this train but my recollection of definitions from Physics 101 more than a quarter century ago is that the fundamental is the first harmonic. The first overtone is the second harmonic. These are/were accepted definitions. -- From: Cortland Richmond 72146@compuserve.com To: bogdan matoga bogda...@pacbell.net, ieee pstc list emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: 2 Phases in North America Date: Mon, Dec 17, 2001, 12:04 AM If we're smart (are we?) we'll say fundamental, and let whoever wants to argue what 2nd means have the arena all to themselves! I would say there are harmonics of the second order, third order, and so on, to which we refer, in short, as the second and third harmonics (and so on). Don't forget, though, where the terms came from; what IS harmonic motion, hmm? Cortland --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 2 Phases in North America
Gentlemen: I certainly did not intend to start philosophical contortions! Season's greetings and a harmonic(*) New Year! Bogdan. (*) Now what will this start lfresea...@aol.com wrote: Mike, I don't go with you on this one... 0 implies nothing ( prehaps 0 ac ) ... therefore the 0th harmonic is dc??? if a squarewave is made up of odd harmonics, we would have to rethink that, correct? Derek. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 2 Phases in North America
I read in !emc-pstc that lfresea...@aol.com wrote (in 169.5d0f58e.294f6 e...@aol.com) about '2 Phases in North America', on Mon, 17 Dec 2001: 0 implies nothing ( prehaps 0 ac ) ... therefore the 0th harmonic is dc??? That fits with Fourier analysis. if a squarewave is made up of odd harmonics, we would have to rethink that, correct? Indeed. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 2 Phases in North America
I can see that this subject hasn't fazed ANYONE. Cortland (speaking, as usual, for myself - and not my employer) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 2 Phases in North America
Electric utilities genreate and distribute 3 phase power. At the load, then, some power conversion strategy is employed to derive 2 phase power. For instance, by adding a secondary winging on a 3 phase transformer on phases A and B with 47% of the winding on phase A and 53% on phase B, the resultant is a voltage lagging phase A by 90 degrees. The turns ratio between primary and secondary is adjusted to get the desired secondary voltage on the new phase. This is essentially what capacitor start single phase motors do -- temporarily derive a phase approximately 90 degreees from the single phase, so that there is some rotational torque for starting. Once running, this is no longer necessary and the start winding drops out. On a 2 phase motor, the second phase remains in the circuit. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: Hans Mellberg[SMTP:emcconsult...@yahoo.com] Reply To: Hans Mellberg Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 11:00 AM To: Cortland Richmond; bogda...@pacbell.net Cc: Robert Johnson; 'Barry Esmore'; 'EMC-PSTC Forum' Subject: Re: 2 Phases in North America ok folks. This topic needs to be clarified. With respect to each other, by definition, two conductors have a potential difference at 180 degrees. Period. The 90 degree stuff may pertain to current but not to voltage. You would need a four-phase transformer to get 90 degree phasing and simply it does not exist. Voltage, is usually measured: wrt ground, wrt other reference conductor such as neutral or wrt to another voltage (hot) conductor. In some cases, the voltage difference between ground and two other conductors may be 120/240 degrees such as in a three phase system. So, no matter how you measure voltage it will either be at 120, 180 or 240 degrees wrt to some other conductor. In the US there have been many systems of low voltage (staying below 480V)distribution yielding the following voltages: 480/240/120 480/208/120 from three three phase 480/230/115 single split phase 230/115 single split phase motor control voltage 220/110 single split phase older home voltages 208/120 from three phase 480/277 (for fluorescent lighting) 117 (where did this come from? seen in many older HP instruments) Open Delta (3, 4 or 5 wire, when one is grounded into neutral its called a stinger) Split phase (three or four wire) Y (four and five wire) Hope this stirrs the pot = Best Regards Hans Mellberg Regulatory Compliance EMC Design Services Consultant By the Pacific Coast next to Silicon Valley, Santa Cruz, CA, USA 408-507-9694 __ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 2 Phases in North America
Failed on the first try. Let's try again. Peter -Original Message- From: Peter Tarver [mailto:peter.tar...@sanmina.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 8:57 AM To: 'EMC-PSTC Forum' Cc: 'Barry Esmore' Subject: RE: 2 Phases in North America This is a recurring topic. While referred to generally as single-phase, two phases, as Bob Johnson indicated, are present in most homes. This is also called split-phase. I make to representation about the products this company sells, but there is a depiction of this power arrangement at http://www.itvss.com/pdf/spliti.pdf on the first page of the Adobe Acrobat document (though only one winding of the three-phase, delta connected transformer is shown). Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina Homologation Services peter.tar...@sanmina.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 2 Phases in North America
I haven't been following this train but my recollection of definitions from Physics 101 more than a quarter century ago is that the fundamental is the first harmonic. The first overtone is the second harmonic. These are/were accepted definitions. -- From: Cortland Richmond 72146@compuserve.com To: bogdan matoga bogda...@pacbell.net, ieee pstc list emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: 2 Phases in North America Date: Mon, Dec 17, 2001, 12:04 AM If we're smart (are we?) we'll say fundamental, and let whoever wants to argue what 2nd means have the arena all to themselves! I would say there are harmonics of the second order, third order, and so on, to which we refer, in short, as the second and third harmonics (and so on). Don't forget, though, where the terms came from; what IS harmonic motion, hmm? Cortland --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 2 Phases in North America
Mike, I don't go with you on this one... 0 implies nothing ( prehaps 0 ac ) ... therefore the 0th harmonic is dc??? if a squarewave is made up of odd harmonics, we would have to rethink that, correct? Derek. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 2 Phases in North America
This could be interesting::; if 50/60 is the 0th, then 100/120 would be the 1st ?? Makes sense to me!! No harmonics of the fundamental frequency would be the 0th; and 1st harmonic would be at twice the fundamental frequency. (I know this is not the convention, but it seems logical: first harmonic is fundamental plus the fundamental (once); second is the fundamental plus the fundamental x 2, etc. ). I like it! Mike Hopkins Thermo KeyTek -Original Message- From: bogdan matoga [mailto:bogda...@pacbell.net] Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 8:03 PM To: Cortland Richmond Cc: Jayasinghe, Ryan; Robert Johnson; 'Barry Esmore'; 'EMC-PSTC Forum' Subject: Re: 2 Phases in North America Cortland: I always thought that 50 Hz or respectively 60 Hz was the 0-th harmonic! Was I mistaken? (I would not be surprised!) (: -) !! Bogdan. Cortland Richmond wrote: This is rather similar to asking what the first harmonic of the power line frequency is. (grin!) Cortland Jayasinghe, Ryan wrote: 180° out of phase? --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 2 Phases in North America
Bill - you absolutely correct in describing the North American system as single-phase, 3 wire. After all, that is how it is described in Annex V, Figure V.4 of IEC60950:1999 - and there is NO WAY that IEC TC74 could be wrong, is there ? (especially since the US committee must have voted yes, to include this change, the purpose of which was to educate those of us who weren't too clear on the subject). Fortunately I am on holiday (vacation) from tonight until January 3, so to all our readers, best wishes for the Christmas season, and a happy and prosperous 2002. John Crabb, Development Excellence (Product Safety) , NCR Financial Solutions Group Ltd., Kingsway West, Dundee, Scotland. DD2 3XX E-Mail :john.cr...@scotland.ncr.com Tel: +44 (0)1382-592289 (direct ). Fax +44 (0)1382-622243. VoicePlus 6-341-2289. -Original Message- From: Bill Lawrence [mailto:wlawr...@capecod.net] Sent: 14 December 2001 22:33 To: 'Wagner, John P (John)'; 'Robert Johnson'; 'Cortland Richmond' Cc: 'Barry Esmore'; 'EMC-PSTC Forum' Subject: RE: 2 Phases in North America Two Phase / 5 Wire (4 hots and a neutral) was a common power distribution in US cities in the early part of this century. Many early motors are 2-phase motors. I learned about this when helping with connection of these motors to run on a 3 phase power system via a special Scott-T transformer connection. The correct designation for the 120/240 power system described is Single Phase / 3 Wire. Bill Lawrence
Re: 2 Phases in North America
If we're smart (are we?) we'll say fundamental, and let whoever wants to argue what 2nd means have the arena all to themselves! I would say there are harmonics of the second order, third order, and so on, to which we refer, in short, as the second and third harmonics (and so on). Don't forget, though, where the terms came from; what IS harmonic motion, hmm? Cortland --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 2 Phases in North America
Cortland: I always thought that 50 Hz or respectively 60 Hz was the 0-th harmonic! Was I mistaken? (I would not be surprised!) (: -) !! Bogdan. Cortland Richmond wrote: This is rather similar to asking what the first harmonic of the power line frequency is. (grin!) Cortland Jayasinghe, Ryan wrote: 180° out of phase? --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 2 Phases in North America
ok folks. This topic needs to be clarified. With respect to each other, by definition, two conductors have a potential difference at 180 degrees. Period. The 90 degree stuff may pertain to current but not to voltage. You would need a four-phase transformer to get 90 degree phasing and simply it does not exist. Voltage, is usually measured: wrt ground, wrt other reference conductor such as neutral or wrt to another voltage (hot) conductor. In some cases, the voltage difference between ground and two other conductors may be 120/240 degrees such as in a three phase system. So, no matter how you measure voltage it will either be at 120, 180 or 240 degrees wrt to some other conductor. In the US there have been many systems of low voltage (staying below 480V)distribution yielding the following voltages: 480/240/120 480/208/120 from three three phase 480/230/115 single split phase 230/115 single split phase motor control voltage 220/110 single split phase older home voltages 208/120 from three phase 480/277 (for fluorescent lighting) 117 (where did this come from? seen in many older HP instruments) Open Delta (3, 4 or 5 wire, when one is grounded into neutral its called a stinger) Split phase (three or four wire) Y (four and five wire) Hope this stirrs the pot = Best Regards Hans Mellberg Regulatory Compliance EMC Design Services Consultant By the Pacific Coast next to Silicon Valley, Santa Cruz, CA, USA 408-507-9694 __ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 2 Phases in North America
Hi all, Even though I am an electrical engineer, I'm terribly confused by this post. I have always believed (and on a few occasions measured) the standard US home system feed. There is no choice of 240 volts. The 220 volt feed used by larger devices is two 118 VAC phases 120 degrees apart. The math seems to work. WRT Cortland's post, I guess I don't see ground (or close to it neutral) as having a phase. If that is believable, then a single phase system is not so hard to believe. Just a few thoughts, Brent DeWitt -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of bogdan matoga Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 3:12 PM To: Cortland Richmond Cc: Robert Johnson; 'Barry Esmore'; 'EMC-PSTC Forum' Subject: Re: 2 Phases in North America Dear Esquire: May I suggest that you partake in a course called Basic Electricity 001? Bogdan. Cortland Richmond wrote: By the definition below, *single phase* AC would require one wire with no return. I want to see THAT one work before I pay for it! Cortland Richmond (the above being my own opinion, not a statement of my employer's) Robert Johnson wrote: This has just reopened the old two phase controversy again. Ed has done a good job of describing the systems in detail, but be careful with the terms. Ask an electrical engineer about a 120/240 volt home service and he will call it a two phase system. Two phases 180 degrees out of phase is technically correct. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson: pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Heald davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 2 Phases in North America
This is rather similar to asking what the first harmonic of the power line frequency is. (grin!) Cortland Jayasinghe, Ryan wrote: 180° out of phase? --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 2 Phases in North America
I read in !emc-pstc that Price, Ed ed.pr...@cubic.com wrote (in b78135310217d511907c0090273f5190d0b...@curly.ds.cubic.com) about '2 Phases in North America', on Thu, 13 Dec 2001: At this point, you still have a single-phase system. The voltage is 240 Vrms, from one hot line to the other. The voltage from each hot line to neutral (and ground) is 120 Vrms. Well, you can also look at it as a two-phase system with 180 degrees between phases. But since the load is very rarely balanced, so the neutral is normally a current-carrying conductor, it doesn't really meet the criteria of a poly-phase system. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 2 Phases in North America
Should have put a (grin) symbol in that. I've always understood two phase to mean a distribution system using three wires, one common, with two conductors whose phase differed by 90 degrees. These were used, I believe, mainly for motors. I think this is what the original question was asking for. Cheers! Cortland bogdan matoga wrote: Dear Esquire: May I suggest that you partake in a course called Basic Electricity 001? Bogdan. Cortland Richmond wrote: By the definition below, *single phase* AC would require one wire with no return. I want to see THAT one work before I pay for it! Cortland Richmond (the above being my own opinion, not a statement of my employer's) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 2 Phases in North America
RE: 2 Phases in North AmericaTwo Phase / 5 Wire (4 hots and a neutral) was a common power distribution in US cities in the early part of this century. Many early motors are 2-phase motors. I learned about this when helping with connection of these motors to run on a 3 phase power system via a special Scott-T transformer connection. The correct designation for the 120/240 power system described is Single Phase / 3 Wire. Bill Lawrence -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Wagner, John P (John) Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 3:14 PM To: Robert Johnson; Cortland Richmond Cc: Barry Esmore; EMC-PSTC Forum Subject: RE: 2 Phases in North America Actually, 2 phase systems have a phase rotation of 90 degrees, not 180. Two phase systems have been used for control motors and the like, but are fairly rare these days. 180 degree rotation between phases is a center tapped single phase system. The proper terminology is, I believe, split phase. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: Cortland Richmond[SMTP:cortland.richm...@alcatel.com] Reply To: Cortland Richmond Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 10:38 AM To: Robert Johnson Cc: 'Barry Esmore'; 'EMC-PSTC Forum' Subject:Re: 2 Phases in North America By the definition below, *single phase* AC would require one wire with no return. I want to see THAT one work before I pay for it! Cortland Richmond (the above being my own opinion, not a statement of my employer's) Robert Johnson wrote: This has just reopened the old two phase controversy again. Ed has done a good job of describing the systems in detail, but be careful with the terms. Ask an electrical engineer about a 120/240 volt home service and he will call it a two phase system. Two phases 180 degrees out of phase is technically correct. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson: pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Heald davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. attachment: winmail.dat
Re: 2 Phases in North America
Dear Esquire: May I suggest that you partake in a course called Basic Electricity 001? Bogdan. Cortland Richmond wrote: By the definition below, *single phase* AC would require one wire with no return. I want to see THAT one work before I pay for it! Cortland Richmond (the above being my own opinion, not a statement of my employer's) Robert Johnson wrote: This has just reopened the old two phase controversy again. Ed has done a good job of describing the systems in detail, but be careful with the terms. Ask an electrical engineer about a 120/240 volt home service and he will call it a two phase system. Two phases 180 degrees out of phase is technically correct. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson: pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Heald davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 2 Phases in North America
Actually, 2 phase systems have a phase rotation of 90 degrees, not 180. Two phase systems have been used for control motors and the like, but are fairly rare these days. 180 degree rotation between phases is a center tapped single phase system. The proper terminology is, I believe, split phase. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: Cortland Richmond[SMTP:cortland.richm...@alcatel.com] Reply To: Cortland Richmond Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 10:38 AM To: Robert Johnson Cc: 'Barry Esmore'; 'EMC-PSTC Forum' Subject: Re: 2 Phases in North America By the definition below, *single phase* AC would require one wire with no return. I want to see THAT one work before I pay for it! Cortland Richmond (the above being my own opinion, not a statement of my employer's) Robert Johnson wrote: This has just reopened the old two phase controversy again. Ed has done a good job of describing the systems in detail, but be careful with the terms. Ask an electrical engineer about a 120/240 volt home service and he will call it a two phase system. Two phases 180 degrees out of phase is technically correct. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson: pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Heald davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 2 Phases in North America
By the definition below, *single phase* AC would require one wire with no return. I want to see THAT one work before I pay for it! Cortland Richmond (the above being my own opinion, not a statement of my employer's) Robert Johnson wrote: This has just reopened the old two phase controversy again. Ed has done a good job of describing the systems in detail, but be careful with the terms. Ask an electrical engineer about a 120/240 volt home service and he will call it a two phase system. Two phases 180 degrees out of phase is technically correct. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 2 Phases in North America
This has just reopened the old two phase controversy again. Ed has done a good job of describing the systems in detail, but be careful with the terms. Ask an electrical engineer about a 120/240 volt home service and he will call it a two phase system. Two phases 180 degrees out of phase is technically correct. Ask an electrician and he will tell you the only way to get two phases is to start with three phases and leave one out (and will also tell you the engineer is nuts). He is talking about two phases 120 degrees apart. The electrician will use two phases to either save copper or transformers, and allow for future expansion. There is a pretty important distinction, since you can regenerate the third phase (although inefficiently) using transformers on the 120 degree case, but not with the 180 degree case. The three phase rotation is of course crucial for rotating machinery. For single phase or the 180 degree case, you need to generate starting torque using capacitors to delay a phase. As a result, you should just avoid the use of the term two phase. Talk about a 120/240 volt center tapped service, or two phases of a 120/208 volt three phase service. In answer to your original question, I would say essentially 100% of homes, and most of the businesses or buildings serving up to about 10 employees will have the 120/240 volt center tapped service (distributing 120 v single phase 3 wire to most prewired locations). Most businesses larger than that will receive a 120/208 volt three phase service (or a higher voltage three phase service), again distributing 120 v single phase 3 wire to most locations (using privately owned step down transformers if needed). Approximately 40% of homes (the older ones) and a few older business buildings will have 120 v single phase 2 wire (no ground) instead of 3 wire wiring in the building. There are of course some small businesses (e.g. a photoprocessing lab or small machine shop) which require three phase service and likewise some rather large businesses (like offices) which can get by on single phase service. It depends on history and location. I, for example, have three phase available in my home shop generated by a rotary phase converter, because it is several miles to commercial three phase service (and also a more expensive monthly connection fee). The next question is, if choosing a feed for a product, what should you pick? My simplified North American recommendation would be: Up to 2500 W, stick with single phase 120 v. (Up to 16 amps for standard receptacles, up to 24 amps for dedicated receptacles) Up to 5 KW try for single phase which will work on either 240 or 208 volts. (allowing connection to either 120/240 V center tapped or 120/208 V three phase services). Up to 25 KW aim for 120/208 three phase service, but you may want to offer a 277/480 V option. Above 25 KW you probably need to offer multiple options or make custom arrangements with customers based on available service. 277/480 V is the next common service in use. For rotating machinery, you probably need to consider three phase as soon as you go above 1 or 2 horsepower (1 KW) For home products, consider Class II products to comfortably serve most customers with 2 wire receptacles. Bob Johnson ITE Safety -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Ed Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 8:23 PM To: 'Barry Esmore'; EMC-PSTC Forum Subject: RE: 2 Phases in North America -Original Message- From: Barry Esmore [mailto:bar...@melbpc.org.au] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 2:39 PM To: EMC-PSTC Forum Subject: 2 Phases in North America Hi All, Can someone provide an estimate of the percentage of homes and businesses that have 2 phases in Canada and the USA? Also, what is the most common voltage between phases? Thanks and regards Barry Esmore AUS-TICK 281 Lawrence Rd Mt Waverley Vic 3149 Australia Ph: + 61 3 9886 1345 Fax: + 61 3 9884 7272 Barry: AFIK, just about zero percent of USA homes have two-phase power. Heavy industrial will have a 3-phase delta feed, and light industrial and commercial will have a 3-phase wye feed. However, homes are usually fed by a three-wire system. A transformer changes a single-phase, two-wire distribution feed (about 12 kV) to a center-tapped, 240 Vrms output. One transformer often serves about 10-20 homes. The center-tap is grounded, and the three output wires are routed pole-to-pole. Each individual customer (home) has a three-wire feeder cable (called a drop) connected from a junction on the pole to a power-panel on the house. At the house power-panel, the neutral wire is again grounded. Each 240 Vrms line-to-line is routed through a power meter and then to a bank of circuit breakers. At this point, you still have a single-phase system. The voltage is 240 Vrms, from one hot line to the other. The voltage from each hot line to neutral (and ground) is 120
RE: 2 Phases in North America
-Original Message- From: Barry Esmore [mailto:bar...@melbpc.org.au] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 2:39 PM To: EMC-PSTC Forum Subject: 2 Phases in North America Hi All, Can someone provide an estimate of the percentage of homes and businesses that have 2 phases in Canada and the USA? Also, what is the most common voltage between phases? Thanks and regards Barry Esmore AUS-TICK 281 Lawrence Rd Mt Waverley Vic 3149 Australia Ph: + 61 3 9886 1345 Fax: + 61 3 9884 7272 Barry: AFIK, just about zero percent of USA homes have two-phase power. Heavy industrial will have a 3-phase delta feed, and light industrial and commercial will have a 3-phase wye feed. However, homes are usually fed by a three-wire system. A transformer changes a single-phase, two-wire distribution feed (about 12 kV) to a center-tapped, 240 Vrms output. One transformer often serves about 10-20 homes. The center-tap is grounded, and the three output wires are routed pole-to-pole. Each individual customer (home) has a three-wire feeder cable (called a drop) connected from a junction on the pole to a power-panel on the house. At the house power-panel, the neutral wire is again grounded. Each 240 Vrms line-to-line is routed through a power meter and then to a bank of circuit breakers. At this point, you still have a single-phase system. The voltage is 240 Vrms, from one hot line to the other. The voltage from each hot line to neutral (and ground) is 120 Vrms. Small loads (lights, outlets) are connected from one hot to the neutral (with an attempt by the electrician to balance the expected power draw). Heavy loads (water heater, clothes dryer, air conditioning, heating and cooking) are connected from one hot to the other hot line. The typical three-wire electrical outlet in a USA home has a hot, a neutral, and a safety ground connection. The hot-to-neutral is 120 Vrms, the hot-to-safety ground is also 120 Vrms, and the neutral-to-safety ground is supposed to be zero Vrms (but often is a half-volt or so). Power flows in the hot-to-neutral circuit, and must not be routed into the safety ground. Much older homes may have a two-wire outlet, with a safety ground attached to the outlet box. If you have (typically) an appliance that needs a safety ground, the consumer is expected to make the ground to the box with an adapter and a pig-tail wire to the cover-plate screw! This is usually ignored by the consumer. Regards, Ed Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis
2 Phases in North America
Hi All, Can someone provide an estimate of the percentage of homes and businesses that have 2 phases in Canada and the USA? Also, what is the most common voltage between phases? Thanks and regards Barry Esmore AUS-TICK 281 Lawrence Rd Mt Waverley Vic 3149 Australia Ph: + 61 3 9886 1345 Fax: + 61 3 9884 7272
