RE: ISO 9k/2k relevance
Hello Brian, I don't have any helpful answers for you. I used to sell ISO 9000 and the majority of times I heard its benefits praised was by my bosses and the sales information. I do remember a small number of customers saying that, for them to be considered in bids, they had to have ISO 9000. However, I have also work for ISO 9000 companies whose day to day working practices were a mess, but come audit day they would come up smelling of roses. I suspect that ISO 9000 / 2000 will improve this situation, and perhaps through time, if customer companies see marked improvements in their own operations, more of them will start to insist on their suppliers having the same accreditation. From personal experience, the companies I have had dealings with are still in a period of transition from the old ISO 9000, and therefore any benefits of the new system are still to be realised. Best regards, David Sproul -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Brian O'Connell Sent: 08 August 2002 15:36 To: Product Safety Technical Committee Subject: ISO 9k/2k relevance Good People of the PSTC: I've had some conversations with our Component Engineers, Sales and QA people. I could not identify any customer that placed an order based on our ISO 9k and/or 2k certification. Nor could I identify any component specified and/or purchased that was based on whether a supplier has ISO certification. Is the ISO paper mill relevant? Is there empirical evidence that ISO certification results in better stuff? Is ISO certification a requirement for your purchasing policies? Has ISO certification been a determining or contributing factor for selection of your company's products? At this point, I am not being critical of the ISO process; I am attempting to understand its ROI and relevance to product quality. I speak only for myself; nothing said here represents my employer's policies. R/S, Brian --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: ISO 9k/2k relevance
ISO requirement: ISO is NOT law. It is contractual between your company and any one or more of your customers. ROI: If you're company is totally disorganized without procedures and without any sort of feedback system from the field (I doubt you could exist), implenting an ISO system would clean this up. Simply because it's cleaned up with procedures and reports doesn't guarentee your company will be any more successful than a company without it. The ROI with ISO has basically 2 sides to it. 1) ISO is based on what a standard company would do as far as tracking activity on paper. This is supposed to make things repeatable instead of people sitting around trying to figure out, Now just how did we do that? 2) ISO makes it easy for any potential customer who wants to qualify you as a vendor. They can walk in on any day asking for this or that procedure. I'm familiar with ISO 9K. But that's being replace with ISO 2K. ISO 2K has taken away the elements and makes it more difficult with which to comply. There's no subdivisions with ISO 2K as there was with ISO 9K with 9001, 9002, 9003 ... With ISO 2K, if something doesn't apply to your company, you have to justify why it doesn't apply. Regards, Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: ISO 9k/2k relevance
Ron, If you are following the requirements documented in ISO 9k you will be producing product that meets your own and your customers requirements. It specifically requires you to design to statutory and regulatory requirements. It specifically requires you to look for potential sources of non conformances (preventive action), under the corrective action clause specifically requires you to address customer complaints and it requires that management be reviewing these activities to see if they are appropriate for the business. If you are doing those things effectively you can't be making bad product. No ISO does not define a level of goodness, it's a generic standard, that's up to you and the business you are in to define that. The requiremens of ISO will not allow you to make cement life jackets as the naysayers like to tell you. Brian, Your question regarding whether ISO is relevent: If your business is with the RBOCs then TL9000 (the telecom specific version of ISO 9k) is quickly becoming mandatory to do business with them and this version of the standard requires you to push it down to your primary suppliers. If you business is with the auto manufacturers QS9000 (the automotive version) is pretty much mandatory. Having a registered quality system is still a requirement for product approvals in a large number of countries. RFPs from most larger companies will have a check box for ISO on their check lists. It may not be the final decider but certainly could be a tie breaker. I think you will find that any successful world class company will have embraced the basic principles of ISO 9000 a long time ago regardless of whether they feel it is necessary to have a certificate or not. It's tuff to measure if you improved after obtaining ISO because you would have needed to be making relevent measurements before and if you were doing it before then you were likely meeting the spirit of ISO anyway. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Test Lab Services Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/ -Original Message- From: ron_well...@agilent.com [mailto:ron_well...@agilent.com] Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:59 AM To: boconn...@t-yuden.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: ISO 9k/2k relevance Hello Brian, ISO 9K accreditation only verifies that you have a quality system in place. It doesn't matter if you make good product or bad product because ISO 9K doesn't measure that, your Customers do. Regards, +=+ |Ronald R. Wellman|Voice : 408-345-8229 | |Agilent Technologies |FAX : 408-553-2412 | |5301 Stevens Creek Blvd.,|E-Mail: ron_well...@agilent.com| |Mailstop 54L-BB |WWW : http://www.agilent.com | |Santa Clara, California 95052 USA| | +=+ -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:boconn...@t-yuden.com] Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:36 AM To: Product Safety Technical Committee Subject: ISO 9k/2k relevance Good People of the PSTC: I've had some conversations with our Component Engineers, Sales and QA people. I could not identify any customer that placed an order based on our ISO 9k and/or 2k certification. Nor could I identify any component specified and/or purchased that was based on whether a supplier has ISO certification. Is the ISO paper mill relevant? Is there empirical evidence that ISO certification results in better stuff? Is ISO certification a requirement for your purchasing policies? Has ISO certification been a determining or contributing factor for selection of your company's products? At this point, I am not being critical of the ISO process; I am attempting to understand its ROI and relevance to product quality. I speak only for myself; nothing said here represents my employer's policies. R/S, Brian --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc
RE: ISO 9k/2k relevance
I went through the process at my last employer. I thought it was a good idea. 1) There was traceability in all areas, finance, tech support, sales, RD, purchasing, manufacturing, in short - everywhere. If a problem arose, it was traceable and could be remedied. 2) Better stuff? Perhaps. But there definitely was consistency. If you design junk, you'll at least be consistent in building it. 3) If your vendors have it, you could reduce or in some cases elminate, certain in-coming inspection steps/tests. That in itself saves time/money, and reduces problems. 4) In large RFPs that I dealt with, filling out the huge sections requiring large amounts of information to demonstrate quality/quality assurance practices, design control, etc. were waived if we had ISO certification. Saved A LOT of time, and we stood-out against those that didn't have it. It was an edge. There are many more reasons, but those are just a few of what I feel are key areas. John A. Juhasz GE Interlogix Fiber Options Div. Bohemia, NY -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:boconn...@t-yuden.com] Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:36 AM To: Product Safety Technical Committee Subject: ISO 9k/2k relevance Good People of the PSTC: I've had some conversations with our Component Engineers, Sales and QA people. I could not identify any customer that placed an order based on our ISO 9k and/or 2k certification. Nor could I identify any component specified and/or purchased that was based on whether a supplier has ISO certification. Is the ISO paper mill relevant? Is there empirical evidence that ISO certification results in better stuff? Is ISO certification a requirement for your purchasing policies? Has ISO certification been a determining or contributing factor for selection of your company's products? At this point, I am not being critical of the ISO process; I am attempting to understand its ROI and relevance to product quality. I speak only for myself; nothing said here represents my employer's policies. R/S, Brian --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: ISO 9k/2k relevance
Hi Ron Yes I agree (well it also is supposed to verify that you follow your documented QMS). But I am looking for empirical (or even anecdotal) data sets that indicate whether ISO compliance has improved a company's marketing, or has measurably affected the quality of its products (for better or worse). R/S, Brian -Original Message- From: ron_well...@agilent.com [mailto:ron_well...@agilent.com] Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:59 AM To: boconn...@t-yuden.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: ISO 9k/2k relevance Hello Brian, ISO 9K accreditation only verifies that you have a quality system in place. It doesn't matter if you make good product or bad product because ISO 9K doesn't measure that, your Customers do. -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:boconn...@t-yuden.com] Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:36 AM To: Product Safety Technical Committee Subject: ISO 9k/2k relevance Good People of the PSTC: I've had some conversations with our Component Engineers, Sales and QA people. I could not identify any customer that placed an order based on our ISO 9k and/or 2k certification. Nor could I identify any component specified and/or purchased that was based on whether a supplier has ISO certification. Is the ISO paper mill relevant? Is there empirical evidence that ISO certification results in better stuff? Is ISO certification a requirement for your purchasing policies? Has ISO certification been a determining or contributing factor for selection of your company's products? At this point, I am not being critical of the ISO process; I am attempting to understand its ROI and relevance to product quality. I speak only for myself; nothing said here represents my employer's policies. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: ISO 9k/2k relevance
Hello Brian, ISO 9K accreditation only verifies that you have a quality system in place. It doesn't matter if you make good product or bad product because ISO 9K doesn't measure that, your Customers do. Regards, +=+ |Ronald R. Wellman|Voice : 408-345-8229 | |Agilent Technologies |FAX : 408-553-2412 | |5301 Stevens Creek Blvd.,|E-Mail: ron_well...@agilent.com| |Mailstop 54L-BB |WWW : http://www.agilent.com | |Santa Clara, California 95052 USA| | +=+ -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:boconn...@t-yuden.com] Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:36 AM To: Product Safety Technical Committee Subject: ISO 9k/2k relevance Good People of the PSTC: I've had some conversations with our Component Engineers, Sales and QA people. I could not identify any customer that placed an order based on our ISO 9k and/or 2k certification. Nor could I identify any component specified and/or purchased that was based on whether a supplier has ISO certification. Is the ISO paper mill relevant? Is there empirical evidence that ISO certification results in better stuff? Is ISO certification a requirement for your purchasing policies? Has ISO certification been a determining or contributing factor for selection of your company's products? At this point, I am not being critical of the ISO process; I am attempting to understand its ROI and relevance to product quality. I speak only for myself; nothing said here represents my employer's policies. R/S, Brian --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
ISO 9k/2k relevance
Good People of the PSTC: I've had some conversations with our Component Engineers, Sales and QA people. I could not identify any customer that placed an order based on our ISO 9k and/or 2k certification. Nor could I identify any component specified and/or purchased that was based on whether a supplier has ISO certification. Is the ISO paper mill relevant? Is there empirical evidence that ISO certification results in better stuff? Is ISO certification a requirement for your purchasing policies? Has ISO certification been a determining or contributing factor for selection of your company's products? At this point, I am not being critical of the ISO process; I am attempting to understand its ROI and relevance to product quality. I speak only for myself; nothing said here represents my employer's policies. R/S, Brian --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
