RE: EMC Eduction and Training
Very well said Jim – bravo. Chris From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Knighten, Jim L Sent: 18 December 2008 00:13 To: emc-pstc Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training I’ve followed this thread and even contributed to it. I chose to reply to this post by random selection. Perhaps it is an axiom of life that those who have labored to gain special skills (perhaps even wisdom) tend to berate those younger, less expert persons who come behind them. They are not practical enough, not knowledgeable enough, don’t understand the language that I speak in well enough, don’t have the experiences that I hold dear, don’t seem interested in the things that I think are important, can’t ever step into my shoes. I expect that my mentors felt that way about me and my contemporaries, i.e., the world is going to the dogs! We managed, however, and the world continues to turn. School is designed to give the student a basic set of tools, not the total knowledge necessary to careers. Engineers learn as much or more on the job as they do in college. EMC is a broad field, even though we all tend to see the field through the narrow viewfinder that defines our jobs. The EMC field evolves as technology evolves. Future jobs will not be carbon copies of our jobs. So, while it is entertaining and therapeutic to vent over the shortcomings of our successors, along with academic institutions, let’s give them a break! Thankfully, our predecessors gave us a break (at least mine did). Jim __ James L. Knighten, Ph.D. EMC Engineer Teradata Corporation 17095 Via Del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 858-485-2537 – phone 858-485-3788 – fax (unattended) From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:48 PM To: Edward Price; emc-pstc; k...@earthlink.net Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training Having served nearly 40 years ago in the previous most unpopular war, Kiplings words as quoted by Mr. Cortland give me pause in the consideration of the question asked. I find wanting, the general you in the quote, and still feel that the ideal of who the you should be, worthy of the price paid, then, and now. And now I feel as if I'm changing the diapers of those new graduates and young engineers that I doubt have ever wriggled a razors edge across the galena. Their education in the physics of EM consists of digits. Small wonder they look at me like I'm speaking some foreign tongue when I talk about the orthogonal E and H fields propagating along the third axis, all that were created by time varying voltages or currents. Me thinks the next apprentice should have a physics degree, double E's should be double D's for digital designers. - Bill Indecision may or may not be the problem. --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net wrote: From: Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training To: Edward Price ed.pr...@cubic.com, emc-pstc emc-p...@ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:21 PM Ed Price wrote Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago, when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you when they really, really need you: For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' Chuck him out, the brute! But it's Saviour of 'is country when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees! And Cortland Richmond replied: Kipling is the soldier's patron saint. I served 21 years: (part of a longer work): And know our living ever watch, To ask, as we would do, Is what you are, worth what we paid? Is what we paid, worth YOU? We are the currency you spend For freedom, fear, or oil; Our blood, the coin you pay, Dark on some foreign soil. copyright Cortland RIchmond Ahem! All said, msny firms seem not to understand that one designs OUT problems (EMC or otherwise) and thereby saves money. We need someone to speak at the EMC Symposium about the pychology of getting our employers to do what is right. As it is, I'm turning into a (461/DO-160-/Part15)- waving missionary. Cortland KA5 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list
RE: EMC Eduction and Training
I second that. Possibly it is a metaphor of speaking about our own young years. ;) Though I must admit that some of the graduated (or almost graduated) have serious problems with basic tools also: I had this internal once that had problems with deriving a formula for a simple 2 R voltage divider… Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen ce-test, qualified testing bv Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens James, Chris Verzonden: Thursday, December 18, 2008 9:39 AM Aan: Knighten, Jim L; emc-pstc Onderwerp: RE: EMC Eduction and Training Very well said Jim – bravo. Chris From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Knighten, Jim L Sent: 18 December 2008 00:13 To: emc-pstc Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training I’ve followed this thread and even contributed to it. I chose to reply to this post by random selection. Perhaps it is an axiom of life that those who have labored to gain special skills (perhaps even wisdom) tend to berate those younger, less expert persons who come behind them. They are not practical enough, not knowledgeable enough, don’t understand the language that I speak in well enough, don’t have the experiences that I hold dear, don’t seem interested in the things that I think are important, can’t ever step into my shoes. I expect that my mentors felt that way about me and my contemporaries, i.e., the world is going to the dogs! We managed, however, and the world continues to turn. School is designed to give the student a basic set of tools, not the total knowledge necessary to careers. Engineers learn as much or more on the job as they do in college. EMC is a broad field, even though we all tend to see the field through the narrow viewfinder that defines our jobs. The EMC field evolves as technology evolves. Future jobs will not be carbon copies of our jobs. So, while it is entertaining and therapeutic to vent over the shortcomings of our successors, along with academic institutions, let’s give them a break! Thankfully, our predecessors gave us a break (at least mine did). Jim __ James L. Knighten, Ph.D. EMC Engineer Teradata Corporation 17095 Via Del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 858-485-2537 – phone 858-485-3788 – fax (unattended) From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:48 PM To: Edward Price; emc-pstc; k...@earthlink.net Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training Having served nearly 40 years ago in the previous most unpopular war, Kiplings words as quoted by Mr. Cortland give me pause in the consideration of the question asked. I find wanting, the general you in the quote, and still feel that the ideal of who the you should be, worthy of the price paid, then, and now. And now I feel as if I'm changing the diapers of those new graduates and young engineers that I doubt have ever wriggled a razors edge across the galena. Their education in the physics of EM consists of digits. Small wonder they look at me like I'm speaking some foreign tongue when I talk about the orthogonal E and H fields propagating along the third axis, all that were created by time varying voltages or currents. Me thinks the next apprentice should have a physics degree, double E's should be double D's for digital designers. - Bill Indecision may or may not be the problem. --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net wrote: From: Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training To: Edward Price ed.pr...@cubic.com, emc-pstc emc-p...@ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:21 PM Ed Price wrote Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago, when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you when they really, really need you: For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' Chuck him out, the brute! But it's Saviour of 'is country when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees! -- And Cortland Richmond replied: Kipling is the soldier's patron saint. I served 21 years: (part of a longer work): And know our living ever watch, To ask, as we would do, Is what you are, worth what we paid? Is what we paid, worth YOU? We are the currency you spend For freedom, fear, or oil; Our blood, the coin you pay, Dark on some foreign soil. copyright Cortland RIchmond Ahem! All said, msny firms seem not to understand that one design s OUT problems (EMC or otherwise) and thereby saves money. We need someone to speak at the EMC Symposium about the pychology of getting our employers to do what is right. As it is, I'm turning into a (461/DO-160
RE: EMC Eduction and Training
and even more have problems with the very basic tools the subject line of this email and many of the responses testify to that :-) .. or am I just old and pedanticdon’t answer that. Seasons Greetings Chris From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gert Gremmen Sent: 18 December 2008 08:49 To: James, Chris; Knighten, Jim L; emc-pstc Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training I second that. Possibly it is a metaphor of speaking about our own young years. ;) Though I must admit that some of the graduated (or almost graduated) have serious problems with basic tools also: I had this internal once that had problems with deriving a formula for a simple 2 R voltage divider… Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen ce-test, qualified testing bv Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens James, Chris Verzonden: Thursday, December 18, 2008 9:39 AM Aan: Knighten, Jim L; emc-pstc Onderwerp: RE: EMC Eduction and Training Very well said Jim – bravo. Chris From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Knighten, Jim L Sent: 18 December 2008 00:13 To: emc-pstc Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training I’ve followed this thread and even contributed to it. I chose to reply to this post by random selection. Perhaps it is an axiom of life that those who have labored to gain special skills (perhaps even wisdom) tend to berate those younger, less expert persons who come behind them. They are not practical enough, not knowledgeable enough, don’t understand the language that I speak in well enough, don’t have the experiences that I hold dear, don’t seem interested in the things that I think are important, can’t ever step into my shoes. I expect that my mentors felt that way about me and my contemporaries, i.e., the world is going to the dogs! We managed, however, and the world continues to turn. School is designed to give the student a basic set of tools, not the total knowledge necessary to careers. Engineers learn as much or more on the job as they do in college. EMC is a broad field, even though we all tend to see the field through the narrow viewfinder that defines our jobs. The EMC field evolves as technology evolves. Future jobs will not be carbon copies of our jobs. So, while it is entertaining and therapeutic to vent over the shortcomings of our successors, along with academic institutions, let’s give them a break! Thankfully, our predecessors gave us a break (at least mine did). Jim __ James L. Knighten, Ph.D. EMC Engineer Teradata Corporation 17095 Via Del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 858-485-2537 – phone 858-485-3788 – fax (unattended) From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:48 PM To: Edward Price; emc-pstc; k...@earthlink.net Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training Having served nearly 40 years ago in the previous most unpopular war, Kiplings words as quoted by Mr. Cortland give me pause in the consideration of the question asked. I find wanting, the general you in the quote, and still feel that the ideal of who the you should be, worthy of the price paid, then, and now. And now I feel as if I'm changing the diapers of those new graduates and young engineers that I doubt have ever wriggled a razors edge across the galena. Their education in the physics of EM consists of digits. Small wonder they look at me like I'm speaking some foreign tongue when I talk about the orthogonal E and H fields propagating along the third axis, all that were created by time varying voltages or currents. Me thinks the next apprentice should have a physics degree, double E's should be double D's for digital designers. - Bill Indecision may or may not be the problem. --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net wrote: From: Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training To: Edward Price ed.pr...@cubic.com, emc-pstc emc-p...@ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:21 PM Ed Price wrote Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago, when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you when they really, really need you: For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' Chuck him out, the brute! But it's Saviour of 'is country when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees! And Cortland Richmond replied: Kipling is the soldier's patron saint. I served 21 years: (part of a longer work): And know our living ever watch, To ask, as we would
RE: EMC Eduction and Training
When I can be mistaken for Kipling -- even Kipling on an off day -- that is high praise indeed, WRT the physics degrees... my manager has mentioned that the same math taught him in Physics courses was dry, and the engineering approach was interesting. But on these matters I am at disadvantage, as I have an unconventional education and only took the NARTE exam this August. (That is another story; I could have been grandfathered in 1993 and thought it an unnecessary expense). To the extent that universities educate student ready to learn how their after they are hired, and that employers want people who don't have to be trained on-the-job, EMC is, like other disciplines, either in need of further, practical education, (from the employers' point of view) or to be teachable later (from the schools' point of view.)This last approach takes mentors, and in my opinion even more needs that 10-year-old's experience to work. To a point, internship is useful, if you can actually use the interns for EMC; I've seen interns used for various jobs having little to do with their majors. If this seems rambling, maybe it it; I am thinking this out as I type, always a bad idea. Cortland KA5S - Original Message - From: Bill Owsley mailto:wdows...@yahoo.com To: Edward Price mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com ;emc-pstc mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org ;k...@earthlink.net Sent: 12/16/2008 10:48:01 PM Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training Having served nearly 40 years ago in the previous most unpopular war, Kiplings words as quoted by Mr. Cortland give me pause in the consideration of the question asked. I find wanting, the general you in the quote, and still feel that the ideal of who the you should be, worthy of the price paid, then, and now. And now I feel as if I'm changing the diapers of those new graduates and young engineers that I doubt have ever wriggled a razors edge across the galena. Their education in the physics of EM consists of digits. Small wonder they look at me like I'm speaking some foreign tongue when I talk about the orthogonal E and H fields propagating along the third axis, all that were created by time varying voltages or currents. Me thinks the next apprentice should have a physics degree, double E's should be double D's for digital designers. - Bill Indecision may or may not be the problem. --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net wrote: From: Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training To: Edward Price ed.pr...@cubic.com, emc-pstc emc-p...@ieee.org Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:21 PM --- Ed Price wrote Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago, when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you when they really, really need you: For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' Chuck him out, the brute! But it's Saviour of 'is country when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees! And Cortland Richmond replied: Kipling is the soldier's patron saint. I served 21 years: (part of a longer work): And know our living ever watch, To ask, as we would do, Is what you are, worth what we paid? Is what we paid, worth YOU? We are the currency you spend For freedom, fear, or oil; Our blood, the coin you pay, Dark on some foreign soil. copyright Cortland RIchmond Ahem! All said, msny firms seem not to understand that one designs OUT problems (EMC or otherwise) and thereby saves money. We need someone to speak at the EMC Symposium about the pychology of getting our employers to do what is right. As it is, I'm turning into a (461/DO-160-/Part15)- waving missionary. Cortland KA5 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http
RE: EMC Eduction and Training
I’ve followed this thread and even contributed to it. I chose to reply to this post by random selection. Perhaps it is an axiom of life that those who have labored to gain special skills (perhaps even wisdom) tend to berate those younger, less expert persons who come behind them. They are not practical enough, not knowledgeable enough, don’t understand the language that I speak in well enough, don’t have the experiences that I hold dear, don’t seem interested in the things that I think are important, can’t ever step into my shoes. I expect that my mentors felt that way about me and my contemporaries, i.e., the world is going to the dogs! We managed, however, and the world continues to turn. School is designed to give the student a basic set of tools, not the total knowledge necessary to careers. Engineers learn as much or more on the job as they do in college. EMC is a broad field, even though we all tend to see the field through the narrow viewfinder that defines our jobs. The EMC field evolves as technology evolves. Future jobs will not be carbon copies of our jobs. So, while it is entertaining and therapeutic to vent over the shortcomings of our successors, along with academic institutions, let’s give them a break! Thankfully, our predecessors gave us a break (at least mine did). Jim __ James L. Knighten, Ph.D. EMC Engineer Teradata Corporation 17095 Via Del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 858-485-2537 – phone 858-485-3788 – fax (unattended) From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:48 PM To: Edward Price; emc-pstc; k...@earthlink.net Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training Having served nearly 40 years ago in the previous most unpopular war, Kiplings words as quoted by Mr. Cortland give me pause in the consideration of the question asked. I find wanting, the general you in the quote, and still feel that the ideal of who the you should be, worthy of the price paid, then, and now. And now I feel as if I'm changing the diapers of those new graduates and young engineers that I doubt have ever wriggled a razors edge across the galena. Their education in the physics of EM consists of digits. Small wonder they look at me like I'm speaking some foreign tongue when I talk about the orthogonal E and H fields propagating along the third axis, all that were created by time varying voltages or currents. Me thinks the next apprentice should have a physics degree, double E's should be double D's for digital designers. - Bill Indecision may or may not be the problem. --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net wrote: From: Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training To: Edward Price ed.pr...@cubic.com, emc-pstc emc-p...@ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:21 PM Ed Price wrote Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago, when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you when they really, really need you: For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' Chuck him out, the brute! But it's Saviour of 'is country when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees! And Cortland Richmond replied: Kipling is the soldier's patron saint. I served 21 years: (part of a longer work): And know our living ever watch, To ask, as we would do, Is what you are, worth what we paid? Is what we paid, worth YOU? We are the currency you spend For freedom, fear, or oil; Our blood, the coin you pay, Dark on some foreign soil. copyright Cortland RIchmond Ahem! All said, msny firms seem not to understand that one designs OUT problems (EMC or otherwise) and thereby saves money. We need someone to speak at the EMC Symposium about the pychology of getting our employers to do what is right. As it is, I'm turning into a (461/DO-160-/Part15)- waving missionary. Cortland KA5 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety
Re: EMC Eduction and Training
In message 380-22008122161942...@earthlink.net, dated Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net writes: I see this as having deep roots. Many young people start College without the background to appreciate our discipline. It's quite well established that to do electronics you should really start before age 10. I suspect that 'electronics' could be replaced by other disciplines. Age 18 is mostly too late. Maybe the schools need to hand out crystal sets. Or is it too late to awaken imaginations by then? Yes. Are these people going to school simply to make money? Maybe, but the main point is that the don't have any idea of what career they want. We are a distinct minority among the engineering staff where we work. We are a cost center, not a profit center, and often reminded of that. Without you, your company's products would not be in the market. So your costs should be compared with other **marketing** costs, such as the advertising budget. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk All these closing-downs have been caused by dozing clowns John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: EMC Eduction and Training
I think you hit the nail on the head when referring to deep roots. I think the color of the roots are green. I can remember tracing the steep decline in engineering enrollment during the eighties to statements like 'engineers cause pollution'. At the same time a salesman lambasted my conservative (engineering) approach to investment by stating, 'If it had been up to you engineers we would have never built the Golden Gate Bridge'. He was claiming credit for the salesmen! Now we have politicians who can't read a thermometer teaching global warming? I think engineering needs better PR. Fred Townsend DC to Light Cortland Richmond wrote: I see this as having deep roots. Many young people start College without the background to appreciate our discipline.These students have never listened to radio; they've only turned on a box or a compact player/stereo and stuck headphones in their ears. They will learn, if they take up engineering (Engineering? Yeah, they make lots of money; put me down for engineering.) about Faraday, Ohm, Volta , Hertz, Lenz and Maxwell, (MAYBE, about Farnsworth and Zworykin) but what they learn will not have reality to them beyond the mathematics necessary to describe certain physical phenomena they never expect to encounter. That may exaggerate -- a little. Well and all, they are more educated than I, even so. But I've been doing this work 25 years, and when in 1983, I walked into an EMC facility at Wang Labs in Massachusetts, I was able to do and understand the tests they needed done, never having done them before.It is amazing how little one need know, to know more than others. Maybe the schools need to hand out crystal sets. Or is it too late to awaken imaginations by then? Are these people going to school simply to make money? We are a distinct minority among the engineering staff where we work. We are a cost center, not a profit center, and often reminded of that. We're not romantic, We're not even attractive nerds. And schools must make money. Given that the marketplace doesn't make us look like a good bet, the institutions you found may be all the market will bear. Cortland, KA5S - Original Message - From: Alan E Hutley mailto:a...@nutwooduk.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: 12/15/2008 10:19:16 AM Subject: EMC Eduction and Training Hello All I recently posted a request for information on Universities that offer EMC Educational activities. I thank those that responded but was very surprised by the very small number of Universities involved. I would like therefore to widen the debate. EMC Education and Training Behind EMC lays the Technology and Science of Electromagnetism, Signal Integrity and RF Engineering... EMC is a by-product of these disciplines. Over the past dozen or so years EMC has been largely, if not entirely, driven by Directives and Regulations. Around this scenario has evolved a specialised product industry together with consultants and soothsayers. Without the furore of this activity, EMC would almost certainly not have been on the RADAR to the extent that it has been. Could this be the reason why formal qualifications and academic training has not evolved at the same pace or magnitude? Is the apparent lack of resources committed to Training and Education due to the relevant organisations and Governments lack of understanding with respect to the complexity surrounding EMC... or are there other reasons. Invariably, or at least in many cases, Engineers seem to have ended up becoming EMC Engineers by default, not design. Does anyone actually set out with the sole purpose of becoming an EMC Engineer? Did you? I am interested in the views of others and finding out what resources are currently available, plus I would like to hear from Trainers, Educators, Course Presenters, EMC Engineers, Consultants and anyone else that can contribute to the debate by expressing their opinions. Thank you. Alan E Hutley The EMC Journal www.theemcjournal.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Re: EMC Eduction and Training
That is the argument I used at Wang. How much do you make us every year? Nothing. But you'd pay out $8 million more a year if we weren't here. NOT what they wanted to hear. It never is. FWIW... I have EMC as a *quality* function. No one else does everything. Cheers! Cortland KA5S I wrote: We are a distinct minority among the engineering staff where we work. We are a cost center, not a profit center, and often reminded of that. John Woodgate wrote: Without you, your company's products would not be in the market. So your costs should be compared with other **marketing** costs, such as the advertising budget. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: EMC Eduction and Training
Hey, lets think about this for a minute. Do we really want this “black magic” stuff we do for a living to be better taught in universities? Lets face it, we have a good thing going here and we don’t need some greenhorn engineer thinking he knows more about it than we do. As mentioned earlier, this job is more experience and technique than science and Engineers can’t fix EMC problems by doing a few equations in their office. While an engineer is trying to program some ICE simulation, I walk in, snap on a few ferrite beads and some copper tape and I’m a freakin genius. Then I collect my massive paycheck and go home early. EMC Engineers are special. A good one is hard to find and worth their huge paychecks. So let’s not give in all away like those guys on the Fox Network who reveal how magic tricks are done. Lets face it, engineers do not want to know or understand this EMC stuff for they have enough to try and remember. When I started working here 12 years ago I setup a series of in-house seminars which the engineers slept through. It didn’t change a single thing. So now I don’t even try to teach them my job, just to know when to call me in and save the day (isn’t it like that where you work?). The best EMC engineers and technicians I know where not taught in school, but had been mentored by an older experienced EMC engineer. Like a magician passing on his secretes to his apprentice. I was blessed to know and work with Bud Lang and Dar Evens (Heath Kit ham radio engineers) and sit in the audience of seminars presented by true pioneers in the trade such as Herb Martel, Don White, Ron Brewer, Don Sweeney, (the list goes on and on). I’m been doing this for nearly 25 years and back in the day everyone knew everyone in the biz. It didn’t matter who you were or who you worked for; we worked together to figure it out; we shared information with one another (like this email group), and we went to every seminar or trade show we could but learned more during the bull sessions afterwards than during the classes. This is how it has been done and the way it has to be done. IMHO with a little tongue in cheek. The Other Brian From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Knighten, Jim L Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 4:39 PM To: Alan E Hutley; EMC-PSTC Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training Alan, In the US the best-known university programs in EMC may be The Missouri School of Science Technology (formerly U. of Missouri- Rolla) and Clemson, but there are other schools with programs or classes in one or more aspects of EMC. From my vantage point, these programs offer from among following topics: (1) printed circuit board noise mechanisms (power bus, etc.); automotive EMC; and (3) other (shielding, cables, ESD, etc.). A lot of emphasis in academia (worldwide) is in the arena of modeling. A lot of graduate students that are pursuing advanced degrees are modeling various EMC or EM issues with various methods and tools. This is an arena in which academia has a lot to offer and they find it attractive. Signal integrity studies go hand in hand with printed circuit board noise suppression topics and modeling. A number of schools will offer modeling to graduate students even if they don’t have a full curriculum in EMC topics. A few schools are offering automotive EMC programs since there has been a need and funding sources to support this topic. Academic programs that extend beyond a few classes in an overall electrical engineering curriculum require outside funding, either from industry or the government. Successful programs, such as the Missouri case, have been driven by (1) technology, i.e., high-speed signaling; (2) requirements (more so by basic emissions requirements rather than by the EU’s immunity requirements); (3) by industry needs that are driven by requirements (need to fix a vexing problem for the future, but industry does not have manpower/time to study it themselves); and usually later in time by (4) government wanting to fund the dissemination of this knowledge to other educational channels. The successful academic program is one that is timely in offering this expertise to industry (some luck in being at the right place at the right time), able so solve knotty problems in detail so as to offer help in future designs (provide a benefit to industry), able to attract a steady influx of good students to do the work, and successfully market the program by publishing papers and presenting at conferences. Government interest or understanding of the need for this sort of education is usually late to the table. Jim __ James L. Knighten, Ph.D. EMC Engineer Teradata Corporation 17095 Via Del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 858-485-2537 – phone 858-485-3788 – fax (unattended) From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org
RE: EMC Eduction and Training
-Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Cortland Richmond Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:11 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: EMC Eduction and Training That is the argument I used at Wang. How much do you make us every year? Nothing. But you'd pay out $8 million more a year if we weren't here. NOT what they wanted to hear. It never is. FWIW... I have EMC as a *quality* function. No one else does everything. Cheers! Cortland KA5S Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago, when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you when they really, really need you: For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' Chuck him out, the brute! But it's Saviour of 'is country when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees! Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com blocked::mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
RE: EMC Eduction and Training
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kunde, Brian Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:52 AM To: EMC-PSTC Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training Hey, lets think about this for a minute. Do we really want this “black magic” stuff we do for a living to be better taught in universities? Lets face it, we have a good thing going here and we don’t need some greenhorn engineer thinking he knows more about it than we do. As mentioned earlier, this job is more experience and technique than science. The best EMC engineers and technicians I know where not taught in school, but had been mentored by an older experienced EMC engineer. Like a magician passing on his secretes to his apprentice. This is how it has been done and the way it has to be done. The Other Brian The Other Brian touches on an interesting and salient feature of the happy EMC Engineer. EMC demands a more hands on approach than most of the other disciplines. Those students who are not already building their own circuits and frying their own power supplies will not do well in EMC, or at minimum, will try to stay toward the academic / computational edge of EMC. To the rigidly academic, it must be terrifying to discover that EMC problems have so many unknowns and (usually) more than one solution. I'm not so sure that a mentoring / apprentice system HAS to be the only way to assure continuity, but, from my observation, it has been an effective and efficient method. Certainly, we could get into an endless discussion of whether our educational system rationally assigns talent to appropriate needs (after all, they told me I could be anything I wanted; what they didn't tell me was that what I wanted also had to be needed). Remember Pachinko and Pinball machines? There's something fascinating about watching the life-arc of a ball, despite us knowing with 6-sigma certainty the origin and destination of every ball. Uhhh, what was the question? Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com blocked::mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
RE: EMC Eduction and Training
In keeping with the season and to insure beginning EMC engineers I recite, with editorial license, Church’s response to Virginia O’Hanlon. Virginia- I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no EMC and that it is Black Magic. Papa says, “If you see it on the emc-pstc, it’s so.” Please tell me the truth, is EMC Black Magic? - Virginia O’Hanlon Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge. Yes, Virginia, there is EMC and it is no Black Magic. It exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no EMC and if it were Black Magic! It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished. Not believe in EMC! You might as well not believe in ferrites, or absorbers. You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the stores to catch EMC, but even if you did not see EMC coming down and interfering, what would that prove? Nobody sees EMC, but that is no sign that there is no EMC. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see EMC fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that’s no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world. You tear apart the baby monitor and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart. Only faith, experience, love of the field, testing, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding. No EMC! Thank God! It exists and will forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay 10 times 10,000 years from now, EMC will continue to make glad the heart of inquisitive engineers. Merry Christmas Dennis Ward Director of Engineering American TCB Certification Resource for the Wireless Industry www.atcb.com 703-847-4700 fax 703-847-6888 direct - 703-880-4841 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:49 AM To: EMC-PSTC Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kunde, Brian Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:52 AM To: EMC-PSTC Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training Hey, lets think about this for a minute. Do we really want this “black magic” stuff we do for a living to be better taught in universities? Lets face it, we have a good thing going here and we don’t need some greenhorn engineer thinking he knows more about it than we do. As mentioned earlier, this job is more experience and technique than science. The best EMC engineers and technicians I know where not taught in school, but had been mentored by an older experienced EMC engineer. Like a magician passing on his secretes to his apprentice. This is how it has been done and the way it has to be done. The Other Brian The Other Brian touches on an interesting and salient feature of the happy EMC Engineer. EMC demands a more hands on approach than most of the other disciplines. Those students who are not already building their own circuits and frying their own power supplies will not do well in EMC, or at minimum, will try to stay toward the academic / computational edge of EMC. To the rigidly academic, it must be terrifying to discover that EMC problems have so many unknowns and (usually) more than one solution. I'm not so sure that a mentoring / apprentice system HAS to be the only way to assure continuity, but, from my observation, it has been an effective and efficient method. Certainly, we could get into an endless discussion of whether our educational system rationally assigns talent to appropriate needs (after all, they told me I could be anything I wanted; what they didn't tell me was that what I wanted also had to be needed). Remember Pachinko and Pinball machines? There's
RE: EMC Eduction and Training
I would only add that there are those who learn something and those who simply learn how to pass a course. The two groups normally find different career paths in the technology sector. Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:02 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: EMC Eduction and Training In message 380-22008122161942...@earthlink.net, dated Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net writes: I see this as having deep roots. Many young people start College without the background to appreciate our discipline. It's quite well established that to do electronics you should really start before age 10. I suspect that 'electronics' could be replaced by other disciplines. Age 18 is mostly too late. Maybe the schools need to hand out crystal sets. Or is it too late to awaken imaginations by then? Yes. Are these people going to school simply to make money? Maybe, but the main point is that the don't have any idea of what career they want. We are a distinct minority among the engineering staff where we work. We are a cost center, not a profit center, and often reminded of that. Without you, your company's products would not be in the market. So your costs should be compared with other **marketing** costs, such as the advertising budget. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk All these closing-downs have been caused by dozing clowns John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: EMC Eduction and Training
Ed Price wrote Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago, when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you when they really, really need you: For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' Chuck him out, the brute! But it's Saviour of 'is country when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees! And Cortland Richmond replied: Kipling is the soldier's patron saint. I served 21 years: (part of a longer work): And know our living ever watch, To ask, as we would do, Is what you are, worth what we paid? Is what we paid, worth YOU? We are the currency you spend For freedom, fear, or oil; Our blood, the coin you pay, Dark on some foreign soil. copyright Cortland RIchmond Ahem! All said, msny firms seem not to understand that one designs OUT problems (EMC or otherwise) and thereby saves money. We need someone to speak at the EMC Symposium about the pychology of getting our employers to do what is right. As it is, I'm turning into a (461/DO-160-/Part15)- waving missionary. Cortland KA5 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: EMC Eduction and Training
Having served nearly 40 years ago in the previous most unpopular war, Kiplings words as quoted by Mr. Cortland give me pause in the consideration of the question asked. I find wanting, the general you in the quote, and still feel that the ideal of who the you should be, worthy of the price paid, then, and now. And now I feel as if I'm changing the diapers of those new graduates and young engineers that I doubt have ever wriggled a razors edge across the galena. Their education in the physics of EM consists of digits. Small wonder they look at me like I'm speaking some foreign tongue when I talk about the orthogonal E and H fields propagating along the third axis, all that were created by time varying voltages or currents. Me thinks the next apprentice should have a physics degree, double E's should be double D's for digital designers. - Bill Indecision may or may not be the problem. --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net wrote: From: Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training To: Edward Price ed.pr...@cubic.com, emc-pstc emc-p...@ieee.org Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:21 PM --- Ed Price wrote Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago, when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you when they really, really need you: For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' Chuck him out, the brute! But it's Saviour of 'is country when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees! And Cortland Richmond replied: Kipling is the soldier's patron saint. I served 21 years: (part of a longer work): And know our living ever watch, To ask, as we would do, Is what you are, worth what we paid? Is what we paid, worth YOU? We are the currency you spend For freedom, fear, or oil; Our blood, the coin you pay, Dark on some foreign soil. copyright Cortland RIchmond Ahem! All said, msny firms seem not to understand that one designs OUT problems (EMC or otherwise) and thereby saves money. We need someone to speak at the EMC Symposium about the pychology of getting our employers to do what is right. As it is, I'm turning into a (461/DO-160-/Part15)- waving missionary. Cortland KA5 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: EMC Eduction and Training
In message 2008121515197.344647@Alan-PC, dated Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Alan E Hutley a...@nutwooduk.co.uk writes: Without the furore of this activity, EMC would almost certainly not have been on the RADAR to the extent that it has been. Agreed; the 1989 Directive widened greatly the range of products subject to emission and immunity control. Before then, only a few people knew, or needed to know, about EMC, in countries other than Germany and Austria. They were different because of the restrictions placed on their AM broadcasting post-1945, which prompted a drive to lower the EM noise floor. Could this be the reason why formal qualifications and academic training has not evolved at the same pace or magnitude? Probably not a major factor. Academics have to pursue funding, because that's how the system is set up. But it appears that few did pursue funding for EMC, and I suspect that is because it's a bit too much 'engineering' rather than 'science', which is not attractive to many academics. One could say, 'EMC? It's Maxwell's Equations. The rest is just arithmetic!'. A lot of the science of EMC has been pursued in Germany, Switzerland and Poland, not in the countries around the North Sea. Is the apparent lack of resources committed to Training and Education due to the relevant organisations and Governments lack of understanding with respect to the complexity surrounding EMC... or are there other reasons. Governments understand very little about training needs. They tend to be led by the nose by a certain type of 'educationalist', who have an approach which I think many engineers would find incomprehensible and not well-directed. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk All these closing-downs have been caused by dozing clowns John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: EMC Eduction and Training
Alan, In the US the best-known university programs in EMC may be The Missouri School of Science Technology (formerly U. of Missouri- Rolla) and Clemson, but there are other schools with programs or classes in one or more aspects of EMC. From my vantage point, these programs offer from among following topics: (1) printed circuit board noise mechanisms (power bus, etc.); automotive EMC; and (3) other (shielding, cables, ESD, etc.). A lot of emphasis in academia (worldwide) is in the arena of modeling. A lot of graduate students that are pursuing advanced degrees are modeling various EMC or EM issues with various methods and tools. This is an arena in which academia has a lot to offer and they find it attractive. Signal integrity studies go hand in hand with printed circuit board noise suppression topics and modeling. A number of schools will offer modeling to graduate students even if they don’t have a full curriculum in EMC topics. A few schools are offering automotive EMC programs since there has been a need and funding sources to support this topic. Academic programs that extend beyond a few classes in an overall electrical engineering curriculum require outside funding, either from industry or the government. Successful programs, such as the Missouri case, have been driven by (1) technology, i.e., high-speed signaling; (2) requirements (more so by basic emissions requirements rather than by the EU’s immunity requirements); (3) by industry needs that are driven by requirements (need to fix a vexing problem for the future, but industry does not have manpower/time to study it themselves); and usually later in time by (4) government wanting to fund the dissemination of this knowledge to other educational channels. The successful academic program is one that is timely in offering this expertise to industry (some luck in being at the right place at the right time), able so solve knotty problems in detail so as to offer help in future designs (provide a benefit to industry), able to attract a steady influx of good students to do the work, and successfully market the program by publishing papers and presenting at conferences. Government interest or understanding of the need for this sort of education is usually late to the table. Jim __ James L. Knighten, Ph.D. EMC Engineer Teradata Corporation 17095 Via Del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 858-485-2537 – phone 858-485-3788 – fax (unattended) From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Alan E Hutley Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 7:19 AM To: EMC-PSTC Subject: EMC Eduction and Training Hello All I recently posted a request for information on Universities that offer EMC Educational activities. I thank those that responded but was very surprised by the very small number of Universities involved. I would like therefore to widen the debate. EMC Education and Training Behind EMC lays the Technology and Science of Electromagnetism, Signal Integrity and RF Engineering... EMC is a by-product of these disciplines. Over the past dozen or so years EMC has been largely, if not entirely, driven by Directives and Regulations. Around this scenario has evolved a specialised product industry together with consultants and soothsayers. Without the furore of this activity, EMC would almost certainly not have been on the RADAR to the extent that it has been. Could this be the reason why formal qualifications and academic training has not evolved at the same pace or magnitude? Is the apparent lack of resources committed to Training and Education due to the relevant organisations and Governments lack of understanding with respect to the complexity surrounding EMC... or are there other reasons. Invariably, or at least in many cases, Engineers seem to have ended up becoming EMC Engineers by default, not design. Does anyone actually set out with the sole purpose of becoming an EMC Engineer? Did you? I am interested in the views of others and finding out what resources are currently available, plus I would like to hear from Trainers, Educators, Course Presenters, EMC Engineers, Consultants and anyone else that can contribute to the debate by expressing their opinions. Thank you. Alan E Hutley The EMC Journal www.theemcjournal.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell
Re: EMC Eduction and Training
I agree on the relevance of RF, SI, and EM to EMC since I do all three. I marvel that academia hasn't figured it out. I don't know of any schools that really tie them together. Perhaps it is because of the ways we address them. RF is tends toward frequency domain while SI tends to be time domain. Industry addresses both from the standpoint that they are needed to make the circuit work. On the other hand EMC is what is needed to sell the product. Except for the military, the industry attitude is not to prevent the problem (EMC) unless someone is complaining about the stink. The academic view is strange. I will never forget an advanced amplifier design class where I was supposed to calculate the proper value of a bypass capacitor. The 'correct' answer was 87.5 microfarads. Never mind you can't buy an 87.5 uF cap and therefore the design is unrealizable until proper tolerancing is applied. In terms of EMC the student is really sold down the river. For instance, switching regulators will be taught from the standpoint that either a capacitor or an inductor may be used to store energy. I have never seen a curriculum that tells the student inductors are much more likely to cause EMC problems than a capacitor. Fred Townsend DC to Light Alan E Hutley wrote: Hello All I recently posted a request for information on Universities that offer EMC Educational activities. I thank those that responded but was very surprised by the very small number of Universities involved. I would like therefore to widen the debate. EMC Education and Training Behind EMC lays the Technology and Science of Electromagnetism, Signal Integrity and RF Engineering... EMC is a by-product of these disciplines. Over the past dozen or so years EMC has been largely, if not entirely, driven by Directives and Regulations. Around this scenario has evolved a specialised product industry together with consultants and soothsayers. Without the furore of this activity, EMC would almost certainly not have been on the RADAR to the extent that it has been. Could this be the reason why formal qualifications and academic training has not evolved at the same pace or magnitude? Is the apparent lack of resources committed to Training and Education due to the relevant organisations and Governments lack of understanding with respect to the complexity surrounding EMC... or are there other reasons. Invariably, or at least in many cases, Engineers seem to have ended up becoming EMC Engineers by default, not design. Does anyone actually set out with the sole purpose of becoming an EMC Engineer? Did you? I am interested in the views of others and finding out what resources are currently available, plus I would like to hear from Trainers, Educators, Course Presenters, EMC Engineers, Consultants and anyone else that can contribute to the debate by expressing their opinions. Thank you. Alan E Hutley The EMC Journal www.theemcjournal.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: EMC Eduction and Training
In message 4946d305.3020...@sbcglobal.net, dated Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Fred Townsend ftowns...@sbcglobal.net writes: The academic view is strange. I don't think that 'strange' is the right word. I will never forget an advanced amplifier design class where I was supposed to calculate the proper value of a bypass capacitor. The 'correct' answer was 87.5 microfarads. Never mind you can't buy an 87.5 uF cap and therefore the design is unrealizable until proper tolerancing is applied. Academics, even teaching engineering, mostly do science rather than engineering. They don't bother with practical details, and in many cases, don't even know about what standard component values are available. I've met two 'engineering graduates (one English, one French) who calculated resistor values to 1 part in 10^4 or so, and made the values up from series-parallel combinations of standard parts. They had never even HEARD of tolerances, let alone preferred values. Science says '87.5 uF'; engineering says 'Maybe a 100 uF will do, even at -20% tolerance. Let's try it.' -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk All these closing-downs have been caused by dozing clowns John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: EMC Eduction and Training
I see this as having deep roots. Many young people start College without the background to appreciate our discipline.These students have never listened to radio; they've only turned on a box or a compact player/stereo and stuck headphones in their ears. They will learn, if they take up engineering (Engineering? Yeah, they make lots of money; put me down for engineering.) about Faraday, Ohm, Volta , Hertz, Lenz and Maxwell, (MAYBE, about Farnsworth and Zworykin) but what they learn will not have reality to them beyond the mathematics necessary to describe certain physical phenomena they never expect to encounter. That may exaggerate -- a little. Well and all, they are more educated than I, even so. But I've been doing this work 25 years, and when in 1983, I walked into an EMC facility at Wang Labs in Massachusetts, I was able to do and understand the tests they needed done, never having done them before.It is amazing how little one need know, to know more than others. Maybe the schools need to hand out crystal sets. Or is it too late to awaken imaginations by then? Are these people going to school simply to make money? We are a distinct minority among the engineering staff where we work. We are a cost center, not a profit center, and often reminded of that. We're not romantic, We're not even attractive nerds. And schools must make money. Given that the marketplace doesn't make us look like a good bet, the institutions you found may be all the market will bear. Cortland, KA5S - Original Message - From: Alan E Hutley mailto:a...@nutwooduk.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: 12/15/2008 10:19:16 AM Subject: EMC Eduction and Training Hello All I recently posted a request for information on Universities that offer EMC Educational activities. I thank those that responded but was very surprised by the very small number of Universities involved. I would like therefore to widen the debate. EMC Education and Training Behind EMC lays the Technology and Science of Electromagnetism, Signal Integrity and RF Engineering... EMC is a by-product of these disciplines. Over the past dozen or so years EMC has been largely, if not entirely, driven by Directives and Regulations. Around this scenario has evolved a specialised product industry together with consultants and soothsayers. Without the furore of this activity, EMC would almost certainly not have been on the RADAR to the extent that it has been. Could this be the reason why formal qualifications and academic training has not evolved at the same pace or magnitude? Is the apparent lack of resources committed to Training and Education due to the relevant organisations and Governments lack of understanding with respect to the complexity surrounding EMC... or are there other reasons. Invariably, or at least in many cases, Engineers seem to have ended up becoming EMC Engineers by default, not design. Does anyone actually set out with the sole purpose of becoming an EMC Engineer? Did you? I am interested in the views of others and finding out what resources are currently available, plus I would like to hear from Trainers, Educators, Course Presenters, EMC Engineers, Consultants and anyone else that can contribute to the debate by expressing their opinions. Thank you. Alan E Hutley The EMC Journal www.theemcjournal.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
