Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing
Thank you, Rich, Serves me right for throwing out the old UL478 once our products were updated to UL1950 and relying on memory as to what was inside 478! Tania Grant taniagr...@msn.com - Original Message - From: Rich Nute Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 7:04 PM To: taniagr...@msn.com Cc: john.al...@uk.thalesgroup.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing Hi Tania: I hate to call you an old-timer;-- I would rather state that you might be thinking of UL 114 and UL478 standards that are no longer in force. B ut I don't believe that even they allowed a willy-nilly change from groun ded equipment to one that is ungrounded, unless provided with a special g rounding plug adapter. Well... I *AM* an old-timer! And you can call me that! Back in the days of UL 114 and UL 478, there were no classifications (in North America) equivalent to Class I and Class II, and the concept of double-insulation was barely touched upon in UL 114. Likewise, (in North America) there were no insulation designations equivalent to Basic, Supplementary, and Reinforced. The rule was simply that all insulations must be UL-recognized insulations, and that all components must be UL-recognized components. If you submitted a product with a ground wire, it was tested as if it did not have a ground wire. The justification was that, even though the NEC mandated grounded outlets for all new electrical installations, there were still many installations with 2-wire sockets. Insulations were tested by a hi-pot test. The hi-pot test voltage was 1000 volts. During the time of UL 114 and UL 478, the test voltage was changed to 2V + 1000, where V is the maximum rated voltage of the equipment. The spacings (not clearance or creepage) were HUGE by comparison to today. I believe they were based on a wire strand escaping from a screwed connection. But, I digress. My point is that under UL 114 and UL 478, certified two-wire products used a single insulation just as we do today for grounded products. They did not use double or reinforced insulation. The ground was something nice, but not necessary. But, if you used a ground, it had to meet all the electrical and constructional requirements! Best regards, Rich From owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Thu May 17 16:09:50 PDT 2001 Received: from sanrel1.sdd.hp.com (sanrel1.sdd.hp.com [15.80.36.45]) by hpsdlfsa.sdd.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18546)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02 sdd epg) with ESMTP id QAA18862 for ri...@hpsdlfsa.sdd.hp.com; Thu, 17 May 2001 16:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ruebert.ieee.org (ruebert.ieee.org [199.172.136.3]) by sanrel1.sdd.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.8.5btis+epg) with ESMTP id QAA28864 for ri...@sdd.hp.com; Thu, 17 May 2001 16:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by ruebert.ieee.org (Switch-2.1.0/Switch-2.1.0) id f4HMvZe00995 for emc-pstc-resent; Thu, 17 May 2001 18:57:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [63.25.206.200] From: Tania Grant taniagr...@msn.com To: Allen, John john.al...@uk.thalesgroup.com, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:58:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 6.00.0010.0912 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_001_0001_01C0DEEA.26E613E0 Message-ID: oe344zadtmvwvn20lbhb...@hotmail.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 May 2001 22:57:27.0434 (UTC) FILETIME=[BE815EA0:01C0DF24] Sender: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Tania Grant taniagr...@msn.com X-Resent-To: Multiple Recipients emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org X-Listname: emc-pstc X-Info: Help requests to emc-pstc-requ...@majordomo.ieee.org X-Info: [Un]Subscribe requests to majord...@majordomo.ieee.org X-Moderator-Address: emc-pstc-appro...@majordomo.ieee.org --=_NextPart_001_0001_01C0DEEA.26E613E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, I hate to call you an old-timer;-- I would rather state that you might be= thinking of UL 114 and UL478 standards that are no longer in force. B= ut I don't believe that even they allowed a willy-nilly change from groun= ded equipment to one that is ungrounded, unless provided with a special g= rounding plug adapter. The equipment adhering to these standards may sti= ll be allowed to be shipped until 2005, I believe, provided that no major= changes are being made to this equipment;-- at which point, the new sta= ndard (UL/CSA 60950) applies. =20 However, UL no longer allows new equipment to be submitted to these older= standards. I forget exactly the cut-off date when that happened. =20 The key point is that equipment defined as Class I under IEC/EN 60950 wou= ld be defined the same under the UL/Canadian 60950 standard and require a= n earthed connection. Thus
Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing
Hi Tania: I hate to call you an old-timer;-- I would rather state that you might be thinking of UL 114 and UL478 standards that are no longer in force. B ut I don't believe that even they allowed a willy-nilly change from groun ded equipment to one that is ungrounded, unless provided with a special g rounding plug adapter. Well... I *AM* an old-timer! And you can call me that! Back in the days of UL 114 and UL 478, there were no classifications (in North America) equivalent to Class I and Class II, and the concept of double-insulation was barely touched upon in UL 114. Likewise, (in North America) there were no insulation designations equivalent to Basic, Supplementary, and Reinforced. The rule was simply that all insulations must be UL-recognized insulations, and that all components must be UL-recognized components. If you submitted a product with a ground wire, it was tested as if it did not have a ground wire. The justification was that, even though the NEC mandated grounded outlets for all new electrical installations, there were still many installations with 2-wire sockets. Insulations were tested by a hi-pot test. The hi-pot test voltage was 1000 volts. During the time of UL 114 and UL 478, the test voltage was changed to 2V + 1000, where V is the maximum rated voltage of the equipment. The spacings (not clearance or creepage) were HUGE by comparison to today. I believe they were based on a wire strand escaping from a screwed connection. But, I digress. My point is that under UL 114 and UL 478, certified two-wire products used a single insulation just as we do today for grounded products. They did not use double or reinforced insulation. The ground was something nice, but not necessary. But, if you used a ground, it had to meet all the electrical and constructional requirements! Best regards, Rich From owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Thu May 17 16:09:50 PDT 2001 Received: from sanrel1.sdd.hp.com (sanrel1.sdd.hp.com [15.80.36.45]) by hpsdlfsa.sdd.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18546)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02 sdd epg) with ESMTP id QAA18862 for ri...@hpsdlfsa.sdd.hp.com; Thu, 17 May 2001 16:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ruebert.ieee.org (ruebert.ieee.org [199.172.136.3]) by sanrel1.sdd.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.8.5btis+epg) with ESMTP id QAA28864 for ri...@sdd.hp.com; Thu, 17 May 2001 16:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by ruebert.ieee.org (Switch-2.1.0/Switch-2.1.0) id f4HMvZe00995 for emc-pstc-resent; Thu, 17 May 2001 18:57:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [63.25.206.200] From: Tania Grant taniagr...@msn.com To: Allen, John john.al...@uk.thalesgroup.com, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:58:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 6.00.0010.0912 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_001_0001_01C0DEEA.26E613E0 Message-ID: oe344zadtmvwvn20lbhb...@hotmail.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 May 2001 22:57:27.0434 (UTC) FILETIME=[BE815EA0:01C0DF24] Sender: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Tania Grant taniagr...@msn.com X-Resent-To: Multiple Recipients emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org X-Listname: emc-pstc X-Info: Help requests to emc-pstc-requ...@majordomo.ieee.org X-Info: [Un]Subscribe requests to majord...@majordomo.ieee.org X-Moderator-Address: emc-pstc-appro...@majordomo.ieee.org --=_NextPart_001_0001_01C0DEEA.26E613E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, I hate to call you an old-timer;-- I would rather state that you might be= thinking of UL 114 and UL478 standards that are no longer in force. B= ut I don't believe that even they allowed a willy-nilly change from groun= ded equipment to one that is ungrounded, unless provided with a special g= rounding plug adapter. The equipment adhering to these standards may sti= ll be allowed to be shipped until 2005, I believe, provided that no major= changes are being made to this equipment;-- at which point, the new sta= ndard (UL/CSA 60950) applies. =20 However, UL no longer allows new equipment to be submitted to these older= standards. I forget exactly the cut-off date when that happened. =20 The key point is that equipment defined as Class I under IEC/EN 60950 wou= ld be defined the same under the UL/Canadian 60950 standard and require a= n earthed connection. Thus, short of redesigning completely the stated = equipment and making it Class II, there is no way that a 2-pin plug would= be legal (or sane). taniagr...@msn.com - Original Message - From: Allen, John Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 8:13 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: US
Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing
John, I hate to call you an old-timer;-- I would rather state that you might be thinking of UL 114 and UL478 standards that are no longer in force. But I don't believe that even they allowed a willy-nilly change from grounded equipment to one that is ungrounded, unless provided with a special grounding plug adapter. The equipment adhering to these standards may still be allowed to be shipped until 2005, I believe, provided that no major changes are being made to this equipment;-- at which point, the new standard (UL/CSA 60950) applies. However, UL no longer allows new equipment to be submitted to these older standards. I forget exactly the cut-off date when that happened. The key point is that equipment defined as Class I under IEC/EN 60950 would be defined the same under the UL/Canadian 60950 standard and require an earthed connection. Thus, short of redesigning completely the stated equipment and making it Class II, there is no way that a 2-pin plug would be legal (or sane). taniagr...@msn.com - Original Message - From: Allen, John Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 8:13 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: US Mains Plug/Earthing Hi Folks From my days (about 10 years ago) of dealing with UL on this issue, I seem to remember that pluggable Listed products had to a power cord and that power cord had to have a fitted plug that was suitable and legal for the country in which the product was to be used - and that certainly included the USA. Taking on board some of the comments from other respondents,it is difficult/impossible to use, or sometimes to even sell, a product that is not Listed by UL or another NRTL - and they will only List if it complies with the appropriate standard. Most of these standards are now harmonized with Canada - and fairly much with the rest of the World However,there used to be (and I suspect that a few are still around)a number of very old US/Canadian standards which had much less stringent requirements for insulation sizing and dielectric withstand, and often did not require either a Class I earth connnection or proper double insulation for types of products where the equivalent IEC/EN standards did/do require one or the other. Possibly, this is where the orginal correspondent's customer probably got his idea that a 2-pin plug would be adequate! Nevertheless if there is an appropriate old style standard still valid for the product, and the product meets the relevant technical requirements, then it could be possible for him to obtain Listing with that 2-pin plug! Now, someone tell me that I am too out-of-date and that the above possibility does not exist (please!). John Allen Thales Defence Communications Division Bracknell, UK -Original Message- From: Crabb, John [mailto:jo...@exchange.scotland.ncr.com] Sent: 17 May 2001 09:44 To: 'Enci'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: US Mains Plug/Earthing I don't know if you have to fit a plug, but I can certainly tell you that our USA customers would be VERY UNHAPPY if we supplied a product without a plug. I certainly have the impression that fitting a plug in the USA is not something that people expect to have to do. Regards, John Crabb, Development Excellence (Product Safety) , NCR Financial Solutions Group Ltd., Kingsway West, Dundee, Scotland. DD2 3XX E-Mail :john.cr...@scotland.ncr.com Tel: +44 (0)1382-592289 (direct ). Fax +44 (0)1382-622243. VoicePlus 6-341-2289. -Original Message- From: Enci [mailto:e...@cinepower.com] Sent: 17 May 2001 08:03 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing Thank you for all your comments. Do EU manufacturers have to fit a suitable mains plug to appliances when exporting to USA?... or can it be supplied without a plug, putting the requirement on the user to follow the instructions - in my case, stating that a grounding plug must be used ? Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line
Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing
Do EU manufacturers have to fit a suitable mains plug to appliances when exporting to USA?... or can it be supplied without a plug, putting the requirement on the user to follow the instructions - in my case, stating that a grounding plug must be used ? There are two answers: 1. Safety certifiers will require that a plug be fitted to the equipment before it leaves the factory. (As previously discussed, safety certification is a de facto pre-requisite for selling in the USA.) 2. Regardless of safety certification, in the USA, products are NEVER sold without a plug. (Most Americans would NOT know how to buy a suitable plug or how to wire a cord to a plug!) Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: US Mains Plug/Earthing
Hello Enci, I would ship the product with the USA plug cap intact. If the Customer wants to cut off the ground pin, then that's their decision. Chances are they will void any product warranty if they use the product not as intended. You can't take every corner case and expect to please all your Customers. If you have informed your Customer of the consequences of using your product without a ground, that's all you need to do. Regards, +=+ |Ronald R. Wellman|Voice : 408-345-8229 | |Agilent Technologies |FAX : 408-345-8630 | |5301 Stevens Creek Blvd.,|E-Mail: ron_well...@agilent.com| |Mailstop 54L-SQ |WWW : http://www.agilent.com | |Santa Clara, California 95052 USA| | +=+ | Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age | | eighteen. - Albert Einstein | +=+ -Original Message- From: Enci [mailto:e...@cinepower.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 12:03 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing Thank you for all your comments. Do EU manufacturers have to fit a suitable mains plug to appliances when exporting to USA?... or can it be supplied without a plug, putting the requirement on the user to follow the instructions - in my case, stating that a grounding plug must be used ? Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing
This issue becomes a whole new kettle of fish. As an importer of electrical goods into the states there are very few mandatory requirements enforceable by federal law. The FCC can get you on EMC emissions, and the FDA have powers over certain electronic goods that can emit ionizing or non ionizing electromagnetic radiation. But there is not much stopping you importing equipment without a plug attached. The question is do you want to keep happy customers and stay out of the courts when someone incorrectly fits a plug. With no plug fitted, you will be hard pushed to get an NRTL mark on your goods. Without this mark, if something does go wrong, and with US courts, you might as well write a blank check, hand it over and pack your bags. The fact you, and now all of us, know your customer wants to fit a non earthed two pin plug, to a piece of class 1 equipment. Just feeds ammo to any litigation lawyer. After all you will be supplying equipment in the knowledge that the end user will make it unsafe. Just do not take the risk, with your job, your business or someone's life. Crabb, John wrote: I don't know if you have to fit a plug, but I can certainly tell you that our USA customers would be VERY UNHAPPY if we supplied a product without a plug. I certainly have the impression that fitting a plug in the USA is not something that people expect to have to do. Regards, John Crabb, Development Excellence (Product Safety) , NCR Financial Solutions Group Ltd., Kingsway West, Dundee, Scotland. DD2 3XX E-Mail :john.cr...@scotland.ncr.com Tel: +44 (0)1382-592289 (direct ). Fax +44 (0)1382-622243. VoicePlus 6-341-2289. -Original Message- From: Enci [mailto:e...@cinepower.com] Sent: 17 May 2001 08:03 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing Thank you for all your comments. Do EU manufacturers have to fit a suitable mains plug to appliances when exporting to USA?... or can it be supplied without a plug, putting the requirement on the user to follow the instructions - in my case, stating that a grounding plug must be used ? Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, -- Andrew Carson - Product Safety Engineer Xyratex Engineering Laboratory Tele 023 92496855 Fax 023 92496014 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: US Mains Plug/Earthing
Hi Folks From my days (about 10 years ago) of dealing with UL on this issue, I seem to remember that pluggable Listed products had to a power cord and that power cord had to have a fitted plug that was suitable and legal for the country in which the product was to be used - and that certainly included the USA. Taking on board some of the comments from other respondents,it is difficult/impossible to use, or sometimes to even sell, a product that is not Listed by UL or another NRTL - and they will only List if it complies with the appropriate standard. Most of these standards are now harmonized with Canada - and fairly much with the rest of the World However,there used to be (and I suspect that a few are still around)a number of very old US/Canadian standards which had much less stringent requirements for insulation sizing and dielectric withstand, and often did not require either a Class I earth connnection or proper double insulation for types of products where the equivalent IEC/EN standards did/do require one or the other. Possibly, this is where the orginal correspondent's customer probably got his idea that a 2-pin plug would be adequate! Nevertheless if there is an appropriate old style standard still valid for the product, and the product meets the relevant technical requirements, then it could be possible for him to obtain Listing with that 2-pin plug! Now, someone tell me that I am too out-of-date and that the above possibility does not exist (please!). John Allen Thales Defence Communications Division Bracknell, UK -Original Message- From: Crabb, John [mailto:jo...@exchange.scotland.ncr.com] Sent: 17 May 2001 09:44 To: 'Enci'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: US Mains Plug/Earthing I don't know if you have to fit a plug, but I can certainly tell you that our USA customers would be VERY UNHAPPY if we supplied a product without a plug. I certainly have the impression that fitting a plug in the USA is not something that people expect to have to do. Regards, John Crabb, Development Excellence (Product Safety) , NCR Financial Solutions Group Ltd., Kingsway West, Dundee, Scotland. DD2 3XX E-Mail :john.cr...@scotland.ncr.com Tel: +44 (0)1382-592289 (direct ). Fax +44 (0)1382-622243. VoicePlus 6-341-2289. -Original Message- From: Enci [mailto:e...@cinepower.com] Sent: 17 May 2001 08:03 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing Thank you for all your comments. Do EU manufacturers have to fit a suitable mains plug to appliances when exporting to USA?... or can it be supplied without a plug, putting the requirement on the user to follow the instructions - in my case, stating that a grounding plug must be used ? Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: US Mains Plug/Earthing
Enci, Generally, for a cord-connected product, a plug must be provided as part of the cord set. PETER S. MERGUERIAN Technical Director I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd. 26 Hacharoshet St., POB 211 Or Yehuda 60251, Israel Tel: + 972-(0)3-5339022 Fax: + 972-(0)3-5339019 Mobile: + 972-(0)54-838175 -Original Message- From: Enci [mailto:e...@cinepower.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 9:03 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing Thank you for all your comments. Do EU manufacturers have to fit a suitable mains plug to appliances when exporting to USA?... or can it be supplied without a plug, putting the requirement on the user to follow the instructions - in my case, stating that a grounding plug must be used ? Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: US Mains Plug/Earthing
I don't know if you have to fit a plug, but I can certainly tell you that our USA customers would be VERY UNHAPPY if we supplied a product without a plug. I certainly have the impression that fitting a plug in the USA is not something that people expect to have to do. Regards, John Crabb, Development Excellence (Product Safety) , NCR Financial Solutions Group Ltd., Kingsway West, Dundee, Scotland. DD2 3XX E-Mail :john.cr...@scotland.ncr.com Tel: +44 (0)1382-592289 (direct ). Fax +44 (0)1382-622243. VoicePlus 6-341-2289. -Original Message- From: Enci [mailto:e...@cinepower.com] Sent: 17 May 2001 08:03 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing Thank you for all your comments. Do EU manufacturers have to fit a suitable mains plug to appliances when exporting to USA?... or can it be supplied without a plug, putting the requirement on the user to follow the instructions - in my case, stating that a grounding plug must be used ? Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: US Mains Plug/Earthing
Enci, Be careful! If you are providing him with a two blade attachment plug, make sure your product is designed to meet the double insulation requirements and provide him with the double-insullated square within a square symbol. If product is ITE, double insulation requirements are part of the UL60950 standard. For other categories use UL1097, the US Standard for Double Insulation Systems. Also be advised that some US standards allow Double Insulation and Grounding and others require Double Insulation only. So before you sell anything, I suggest you check the applicable standards for your product. PETER S. MERGUERIAN Technical Director I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd. 26 Hacharoshet St., POB 211 Or Yehuda 60251, Israel Tel: + 972-(0)3-5339022 Fax: + 972-(0)3-5339019 Mobile: + 972-(0)54-838175 -Original Message- From: Enci [mailto:e...@cinepower.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 5:47 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: US Mains Plug/Earthing I am in the UK, a customer in USA wants us to fit 2 pin mains plugs to the Class 1 appliances he is going to be buying from us. He is very firm that there are no regulations in US that requires this to be so. Is that true? Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing
Thank you for all your comments. Do EU manufacturers have to fit a suitable mains plug to appliances when exporting to USA?... or can it be supplied without a plug, putting the requirement on the user to follow the instructions - in my case, stating that a grounding plug must be used ? Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing
Andrew and Enci, Assuming you are talking about equipment subject to harmonized standards IEC/EN 60950, the U.S. and Canadian standard 60950 has the same definition for Class I equipment: it must be earthed, with at least BASIC insulation. This would not be the first time that you should be diplomatically educating your customer. And this is not a time where the customer should assume the risk of the equipment not being earthed since, in case of a fault, the manufacturer would be sued big time for not providing a safe product. The regulation are there, it is the enforcement that is not necessarily consistent. Here is the pecking order: Both the U.S. and the Canadian National Electric Codes specify that equipment installed in buildings needs to meet stated requirements and be Certified (Canada) or Listed (by NRTL in the U.S.) Additionally, the U.S. OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) requires equipment that is placed in the workplace be NRTL Listed. Thus, in public buildings and the workplace the enforcement is by local fire marshalls, city codes, or insurance carriers. OSHA goes out to inspect when a complaint is lodged, but not otherwise as a general rule. Unfortunately, in the private home, nobody comes in to check what is plugged into the house. However, the U.S. is notoriously litigious and any manufacturer providing unsafe equipment that does not meet the stated requirements is just asking to go out of business. I strongly recommend that you educate your customer and provide a proper U.S. grounded power cord with your equipment. If your equipment has a CB Scheme safety report and Certificate, you should not have any problem redesigning it to meet U.S./Canadian voltages and ship with the appropriate NRTL mark. Tania Grant taniagr...@msn.com - Original Message - From: acar...@uk.xyratex.com Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 2:15 PM To: Enci Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing If the equipment is for work place use you have the OSHA requirements for it to be NRTL listed. Which will mean it must meet a standard (ANSI/UL/IEC etc) and hence need an earthed plug. Then the National Electric Code, requires all equipment plagued into the domestic supply to be NRTL listed, so same situation as above. The legal requirements are on the end user, but they are there. Most importantly, make sure he is aware of the fundamental safety risk of not earthing a class 1 product. Enci wrote: I am in the UK, a customer in USA wants us to fit 2 pin mains plugs to the Class 1 appliances he is going to be buying from us. He is very firm that there are no regulations in US that requires this to be so. Is that true? Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, -- Andrew Carson - Product Safety Engineer Xyratex Engineering Laboratory Tele 023 92496855 Fax 023 92496014 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,br clear=allhrGet your FREE download of MSN Explorer at a href=http://explorer.msn.com;http://explorer.msn.com/abr/p
Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing
If the equipment is for work place use you have the OSHA requirements for it to be NRTL listed. Which will mean it must meet a standard (ANSI/UL/IEC etc) and hence need an earthed plug. Then the National Electric Code, requires all equipment plagued into the domestic supply to be NRTL listed, so same situation as above. The legal requirements are on the end user, but they are there. Most importantly, make sure he is aware of the fundamental safety risk of not earthing a class 1 product. Enci wrote: I am in the UK, a customer in USA wants us to fit 2 pin mains plugs to the Class 1 appliances he is going to be buying from us. He is very firm that there are no regulations in US that requires this to be so. Is that true? Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, -- Andrew Carson - Product Safety Engineer Xyratex Engineering Laboratory Tele 023 92496855 Fax 023 92496014 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: US Mains Plug/Earthing
Hmmm . . . you didn't specify the category of equipment, but from the perspective the UL standard 1950 (ITE) Clause 1.2.4.1 defines Class I equipment as: Equipment where protection against electric shock is achieved by: a) using BASIC INSULATION, AND also b) providing a means of connecting the protective earth conductor in the building wiring those conductive parts that are otherwise capable of assuming HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES if the BASIC INSULATION fails. NOTES 1. Class I equipment may have parts with DOUBLE INSULATION or REINFORCED INSULATION, or parts operating in SELV circuits. 2. For equipment intended for use with a power supply cord, this provision includes a protective earth conductor as part of the cord. NOTE 2 is clear that a protective earth conductor should be part of the cord. To me, this is a basic design issue . . . and not likely limited to UL 1950 . . . That customer should recheck there info source. My opinion only . . . John Juhasz Fiber Options Bohemia, NY -Original Message- From: Enci [mailto:e...@cinepower.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 11:47 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: US Mains Plug/Earthing I am in the UK, a customer in USA wants us to fit 2 pin mains plugs to the Class 1 appliances he is going to be buying from us. He is very firm that there are no regulations in US that requires this to be so. Is that true? Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing
I am in the UK, a customer in USA wants us to fit 2 pin mains plugs to the Class 1 appliances he is going to be buying from us. He is very firm that there are no regulations in US that requires this to be so. Is that true? The simple answer is that there is no regulation requiring a Class 1 appliance be provided with a grounding-type (Class I) plug. Indeed, one can buy a cheater plug (3-to-2-wire adapter) at any electrical or hardware store. However, the use of the cheater implies an independent connection of the ground wire to a ground (which is facilitated by the cheater plug). No one ever connects the cheater ground to ground; in practice, it is simply a means to connect the 3-prong plug to a 2-wire socket. Be aware that about 1/3 of the homes in the USA were built before the advent of the grounding-type plug. These homes, unless remodeled, still have only 2-wire mains sockets and wiring. The more complicated answer is that all electrical products in the USA must be certified for safety. This requirement arises from two, independent sets of regulations. OSHA (Occupational Health and Safety Admiinstration) regulations require electrical products used by employees in a workplace be certified for safety. NEC (National Electrical Code) regulations require electrical products used in installations be certified for safety. Safety certifications require Class I appliances be fitted with grounding-type mains plugs. So, your appliance should bear a NRTL (Nationally Recognzied Testing Laboratory) safety certification mark. Your obligation under the safety certification is to provide the appliance with a grounding-type power cord and plug. Your customer does not understand the USA safety certification regulations (which is not particularly uncommon). You should explain to your customer that the fitting of a 2-wire mains plug requires you to remove the safety certification mark. You should then further explain that the certification mark is required by OSHA and NEC regulations, and that, while the product *can* be sold without the mark, the regulations forbid the *user* from connected it to a source of supply. In summary, appliance safety certification requires a Class I product be fitted with a grounding-type plug. Safety certification is required for workplaces and for electrical installations (both of which cover all possible uses of electrical appliances). Note that enforcement of safety certification in electrical installations usually only occurs during the construction and remodeling phases. Appliances installed after such phases are not subject to inspection, so enforcement of regulations on cord- connected appliances is virtually zero (which doesn't make non-certification acceptable under the law). On the other hand, you can satisfy your customer by altering the design such that it meets the requirements for a Class II product. This may not be as difficult as it first seems. If the appliance is enclosed in metal, then all primary wiring must be sleeved. The other mains components must be similarly evaluated. Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing
Enci, Simply put, any electrical appliance marketed in the U.S. should conform to UL standards. You did not state what type of product this is, so I cannot say what standards apply. However, in general, I would be very surprised if any UL standard permitted a two wire plug on a Class 1 (earth grounded) design. George Enci enci%cinepower@interlock.lexmark.com on 05/16/2001 11:47:06 AM Please respond to Enci enci%cinepower@interlock.lexmark.com To: emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: US Mains Plug/Earthing I am in the UK, a customer in USA wants us to fit 2 pin mains plugs to the Class 1 appliances he is going to be buying from us. He is very firm that there are no regulations in US that requires this to be so. Is that true? Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: US Mains Plug/Earthing
Your customer is misinformed and nuts! Why would anyone want to endanger his customers? The short answer is that the National Electrical Code which is adopted virtually everywhere in the US requires equipment to be Listed. And you can be virtually assured that no agency is going to List that configuration. Richard Woods -- From: Enci [SMTP:e...@cinepower.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 11:47 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: US Mains Plug/Earthing I am in the UK, a customer in USA wants us to fit 2 pin mains plugs to the Class 1 appliances he is going to be buying from us. He is very firm that there are no regulations in US that requires this to be so. Is that true? Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
