Re: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle)
Alas, you forget that there is a world outside of PC's and Coms;- Derek. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle)
14.184d3188.28a40...@aol.com, lfresea...@aol.com inimitably wrote: the component side has too great a skyline to give good results. Not these days! Anything more than 5 mm tall and the product won't fit in your pocket. *Everything* has to fit in your pocket(;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle)
Hi all, I have an EMScan system that I used for debugging boards. I have mixed feelings, but for somethings it really helps. If anyone would like their board scanned to see if it would help them, let me know off line: I'm really cheap;- As for high frequency, the resolution of the grid is one limitation, but remember you only scan, reliably, the back side of the board the component side has too great a skyline to give good results. Dos show the hot chips though;- Derek Walton --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle)
RE: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle) - Original Message - From: Frank Krozel To: George Stults ; 'Ehler, Kyle' ; 'Ken Javor' ; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 12:17 PM Subject: Re: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle) Hi George: You are most correct the earlier units did only have frequency coverage to 1.0Ghz, but the newer units go up to 2.7Ghz. Frank Krozel Frank Krozel TEL: 630-924-1600 FAX: 630-924-1668 MOBILE: 630-258-5421 (24/7) TEL: 630-653-9090 Home Electronic Instrument Associates-Central, Inc. Serving the Midwest with Electrical Engineers Since 1971 Website: http://www.electronicinstrument.com 123 East Lake St. Suite 300 Bloomingdale, IL 60108 - Original Message - From: George Stults To: 'Ehler, Kyle' ; 'Ken Javor' ; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 8:09 AM Subject: RE: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle) I also looked at EMSCAN about 2 years ago. I seem to recall that it was limited to a little over 1GHz on the top end at that time. We didn't buy it, because we had harmonics above 1 GHz. -George -Original Message- From: Ehler, Kyle [mailto:keh...@lsil.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 12:24 PM To: 'Ken Javor'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle) I mini-evaluated an EMSCAN about 4 years ago. Cute tool! At the time, this little gem utilized a planar array of 1,024 microantennae, coupled to an RF processor and pc. The radiation display is a user-variable-interpolation color map (spectral or spatial), but a bit imprecise in X-Y location, and forget about the Z plane. You could see a circuit trace acting as an emitter, but you have to be diligent in comparing the pwb layout with the schematic and the tool's radiation profile report. It was also a bit slow. That might have changed since then. Here's a link: http://www.emscan.com/product/prodline.html I could not sell our pcb design engineers on the tool -not even for use as a prescanner. Now our mechanical folks are having a dickens of a time containing 2Gbps fibre channel harmonics after the pcb design is done. Thanks for the job security. boneheads The biggest problem with this weapon was the absolute need for close proximity and repeatable indexing. This severely affects the accuracy and repeatability of the results, making before/after comparisons questionable. For many of us, placing an operating pwb on a planar surface for scanning presents a major challenge. I dont know about you, but we have a backplane that the pwb plugs into, then of course there is cabling, power supplies and cooling to worry about. Not to mention the CRU canisters for each module. Then it needs to be functional. I witnessed differences in emission profile that were highly sensitive to operating modes of the firmware loops and application software. It is extremely difficult if not impossible to do an accurate comparison of a bare board to an assembled and completely functioning EUT. So you are forced to scan a bare board rather than a fully configured and functioning system. For our purposes (debugging the EMI containment) this was of no practicality. Back to sniffer loops and horns.. On the other hand, one of the proper ways to design for compliance is to design for containment of the emissions at the [board level] source. This is where the practicality of the EMSCAN comes into play. I found the tool's virtue for scanning the solder side of the board (close proximity) excellent, but for the component side (which is where most of the radiation sources and fixes would occur) the proximity was poor, grossly affecting the location and precision of the readings. btw I dont work for, or have any connection with, EMSCAN. kyle -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 5:58 PM To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: TV nostalgia You could use an array of very short dipoles or small loops and gain in resolution by giving up efficiency, meaning that the viewer would have to be near the source. Although I have no detailed knowledge of it, I expect this is the principle behind the devices upon which you lay an operating PCB and the device maps hot spots. But clearly you will never get optical or IR viewer resolutions. -- From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: TV nostalgia Date: Mon, Aug 6, 2001, 12:28 PM 95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote: Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s
Re: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle)
RE: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle)Hi George: You are most correct the earlier units did only have frequency coverage to 1.0Ghz, but the newer units go up to 2.7Ghz. Frank Krozel Frank Krozel TEL: 630-924-1600 FAX: 630-924-1668 MOBILE: 630-258-5421 (24/7) TEL: 630-653-9090 Home Electronic Instrument Associates-Central, Inc. Serving the Midwest with Electrical Engineers Since 1971 Website: http://www.electronicinstrument.com 123 East Lake St. Suite 300 Bloomingdale, IL 60108 - Original Message - From: George Stults To: 'Ehler, Kyle' ; 'Ken Javor' ; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 8:09 AM Subject: RE: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle) I also looked at EMSCAN about 2 years ago. I seem to recall that it was limited to a little over 1GHz on the top end at that time. We didn't buy it, because we had harmonics above 1 GHz. -George -Original Message- From: Ehler, Kyle [mailto:keh...@lsil.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 12:24 PM To: 'Ken Javor'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle) I mini-evaluated an EMSCAN about 4 years ago. Cute tool! At the time, this little gem utilized a planar array of 1,024 microantennae, coupled to an RF processor and pc. The radiation display is a user-variable-interpolation color map (spectral or spatial), but a bit imprecise in X-Y location, and forget about the Z plane. You could see a circuit trace acting as an emitter, but you have to be diligent in comparing the pwb layout with the schematic and the tool's radiation profile report. It was also a bit slow. That might have changed since then. Here's a link: http://www.emscan.com/product/prodline.html I could not sell our pcb design engineers on the tool -not even for use as a prescanner. Now our mechanical folks are having a dickens of a time containing 2Gbps fibre channel harmonics after the pcb design is done. Thanks for the job security. boneheads The biggest problem with this weapon was the absolute need for close proximity and repeatable indexing. This severely affects the accuracy and repeatability of the results, making before/after comparisons questionable. For many of us, placing an operating pwb on a planar surface for scanning presents a major challenge. I dont know about you, but we have a backplane that the pwb plugs into, then of course there is cabling, power supplies and cooling to worry about. Not to mention the CRU canisters for each module. Then it needs to be functional. I witnessed differences in emission profile that were highly sensitive to operating modes of the firmware loops and application software. It is extremely difficult if not impossible to do an accurate comparison of a bare board to an assembled and completely functioning EUT. So you are forced to scan a bare board rather than a fully configured and functioning system. For our purposes (debugging the EMI containment) this was of no practicality. Back to sniffer loops and horns.. On the other hand, one of the proper ways to design for compliance is to design for containment of the emissions at the [board level] source. This is where the practicality of the EMSCAN comes into play. I found the tool's virtue for scanning the solder side of the board (close proximity) excellent, but for the component side (which is where most of the radiation sources and fixes would occur) the proximity was poor, grossly affecting the location and precision of the readings. btw I dont work for, or have any connection with, EMSCAN. kyle -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 5:58 PM To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: TV nostalgia You could use an array of very short dipoles or small loops and gain in resolution by giving up efficiency, meaning that the viewer would have to be near the source. Although I have no detailed knowledge of it, I expect this is the principle behind the devices upon which you lay an operating PCB and the device maps hot spots. But clearly you will never get optical or IR viewer resolutions. -- From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: TV nostalgia Date: Mon, Aug 6, 2001, 12:28 PM 95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote: Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). Yes, it sounds much
Re: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle)
We have found the limited resolution of EMCscan to limit (!) its usefulness -
it can't pinpoint IC level problems, for example. Although marketed for
emissions work, it is not usually the best tool if you are hunting down
radiated emissions, since its response to (large) differential-mode currents
will tend to swamp out its response to (small) common-mode currents. The
color plots are fun to look and occasionally can spark some intuition.
As Kyle said, the practical requirement of laying a PCB flat against it makes
it tough to use for much of our work.
Lee Hill
Silent Solutions LLC
EMC Consulting Training
www.silent-solutions.com
In a message dated 8/8/2001 11:26:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
george.stu...@watchguard.com writes:
From:george.stu...@watchguard.com (George Stults)
Sender:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Reply-to:george.stu...@watchguard.com (George Stults)
To:keh...@lsil.com ('Ehler, Kyle'), ken.ja...@emccompliance.com ('Ken
Javor'), emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
I also looked at EMSCAN about 2 years ago. I seem to recall that it was
limited to a little over 1GHz on the top end at that time. We didn’t buy
it, because we had harmonics above 1 GHz.
-George
-Original Message-
From: Ehler, Kyle [mailto:keh...@lsil.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 12:24 PM
To: 'Ken Javor'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle)
I mini-evaluated an EMSCAN about 4 years ago. Cute tool!
At the time, this little gem utilized a planar array of 1,024
microantennae, coupled to an RF processor and pc.
The radiation display is a user-variable-interpolation color map (spectral
or spatial), but a bit imprecise in X-Y location, and forget about the Z
plane. You could see a circuit trace acting as an emitter, but you have to
be diligent in comparing the pwb layout with the schematic and the tool's
radiation profile report. It was also a bit slow. That might have changed
since then.
Here's a link: A
HREF=http://www.emscan.com/product/prodline.html;http://www.emscan.com/product/prodline.html/A
I could not sell our pcb design engineers on the tool -not even for use as
a prescanner. Now our mechanical folks are having a dickens of a time
containing 2Gbps fibre channel harmonics after the pcb design is done.
Thanks for the job security. boneheads
The biggest problem with this weapon was the absolute need for close
proximity and repeatable indexing. This severely affects the accuracy and
repeatability of the results, making before/after comparisons questionable..
For many of us, placing an operating pwb on a planar surface for scanning
presents a major challenge.
I dont know about you, but we have a backplane that the pwb plugs into,
then of course there is cabling, power supplies and cooling to worry about..
Not to mention the CRU canisters for each module. Then it needs to be
functional.
I witnessed differences in emission profile that were highly sensitive to
operating modes of the firmware loops and application software. It is
extremely difficult if not impossible to do an accurate comparison of a
bare board to an assembled and completely functioning EUT. So you are
forced to scan a bare board rather than a fully configured and functioning
system. For our purposes (debugging the EMI containment) this was of no
practicality. Back to sniffer loops and horns..
On the other hand, one of the proper ways to design for compliance is to
design for containment of the emissions at the [board level] source. This
is where the practicality of the EMSCAN comes into play. I found the
tool's virtue for scanning the solder side of the board (close proximity)
excellent, but for the component side (which is where most of the radiation
sources and fixes would occur) the proximity was poor, grossly affecting
the location and precision of the readings.
btw I dont work for, or have any connection with, EMSCAN.
kyle
-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [A
HREF=mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com;mailto:ken..ja...@emccompliance.com/A]
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 5:58 PM
To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: TV nostalgia
You could use an array of very short dipoles or small loops and gain in
resolution by giving up efficiency, meaning that the viewer would have to be
near the source. Although I have no detailed knowledge of it, I expect this
is the principle behind the devices upon which you lay an operating PCB and
the device maps hot spots. But clearly you will never get optical or IR
viewer resolutions.
--
From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: TV nostalgia
Date: Mon, Aug 6, 2001, 12:28 PM
95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle
keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote
RE: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle)
--- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle)
I mini-evaluated an EMSCAN about 4 years ago. Cute tool! At the time, this little gem utilized a planar array of 1,024 microantennae, coupled to an RF processor and pc. The radiation display is a user-variable-interpolation color map (spectral or spatial), but a bit imprecise in X-Y location, and forget about the Z plane. You could see a circuit trace acting as an emitter, but you have to be diligent in comparing the pwb layout with the schematic and the tool's radiation profile report. It was also a bit slow. That might have changed since then. Here's a link: http://www.emscan.com/product/prodline.html I could not sell our pcb design engineers on the tool -not even for use as a prescanner. Now our mechanical folks are having a dickens of a time containing 2Gbps fibre channel harmonics after the pcb design is done. Thanks for the job security. boneheads The biggest problem with this weapon was the absolute need for close proximity and repeatable indexing. This severely affects the accuracy and repeatability of the results, making before/after comparisons questionable. For many of us, placing an operating pwb on a planar surface for scanning presents a major challenge. I dont know about you, but we have a backplane that the pwb plugs into, then of course there is cabling, power supplies and cooling to worry about. Not to mention the CRU canisters for each module. Then it needs to be functional. I witnessed differences in emission profile that were highly sensitive to operating modes of the firmware loops and application software. It is extremely difficult if not impossible to do an accurate comparison of a bare board to an assembled and completely functioning EUT. So you are forced to scan a bare board rather than a fully configured and functioning system. For our purposes (debugging the EMI containment) this was of no practicality. Back to sniffer loops and horns.. On the other hand, one of the proper ways to design for compliance is to design for containment of the emissions at the [board level] source. This is where the practicality of the EMSCAN comes into play. I found the tool's virtue for scanning the solder side of the board (close proximity) excellent, but for the component side (which is where most of the radiation sources and fixes would occur) the proximity was poor, grossly affecting the location and precision of the readings. btw I dont work for, or have any connection with, EMSCAN. kyle -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 5:58 PM To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: TV nostalgia You could use an array of very short dipoles or small loops and gain in resolution by giving up efficiency, meaning that the viewer would have to be near the source. Although I have no detailed knowledge of it, I expect this is the principle behind the devices upon which you lay an operating PCB and the device maps hot spots. But clearly you will never get optical or IR viewer resolutions. -- From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: TV nostalgia Date: Mon, Aug 6, 2001, 12:28 PM 95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote: Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). Yes, it sounds much more attractive than a sniffer, which would produce BAD smells around some equipment. And it isn't technically unfeasible. The problem is the poor resolution, even a microwave frequencies, due to the wavelength of the emission. At 150 kHz, the wavelength is 2 km, so only very BIG things are visible. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
History of 60Hz (TV Nostalgia)
In a recent response of TV Nostalgia Dale Svetanoff suggested a link to the Antique Wireless Association http://www.antiquewireless.org/ Looking through this link I was fascinated by some of the early issues regarding electronic devices power with tubes. Additionally there was an article that discussed the rational for 60Hz power in the U.S. as opposed to 50 Hz or other frequencies. A fellow engineer provided me yet another link that points to the politics of the issue. I found this to be very informative and thought some of you might also be interested. Did you know for example that we had 50Hz in the U.S. prior to WWII and other frequencies such as 25 Hz and 133 Hz were also used? http://www.enteract.com/~enf/afc/electricity I hope that this posting is relevant to the goal and charter of this discussion group. After all, we all deal with these power issues on a daily basis. If not, please let me know. Thanks Rick Busche Evans Sutherland rbus...@es.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: TV nostalgia
(Note: I have been on travel for a few days and just got into this foray of nostalgia.) First, I have to second any and all comments about the smell of vacuum tube sets, of any type! Good stuff. As an FYI to all of you former vacuum tube types who REALLY dig this stuff, may I suggest checking out: Antique Wireless Association. They have a website, and produce a number of excellent publications, including the quarterly Old Timer's Bulletin and the annual AWA Review. Dues are modest and the nostalgia and tech info flows on forever. Regards, Dale Svetanoff Rockwell Collins rbus...@es.com@majordomo.ieee.org on 08/03/2001 04:02:21 PM Please respond to rbus...@es.com Sent by: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc: Subject: RE: TV nostalgia How about the reported X-Ray emissions from the old high voltage regulators and the 25-35KV anode voltages? Those old color sets were beasts. It is interesting to note that the process of keeping the CRT filaments warm, (instant on) was the cause of numerous TV fires. But you know, there's something pleasant (or nostalgic) about the smell of a tube type radio or TV. Perhaps it's just my age. Rick Busche -Original Message- From: Ehler, Kyle [mailto:keh...@lsil.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:38 PM To: 'Ralph Cameron'; 'EMC and Safety list' Subject: RE: TV nostalgia Which reminds me of other oddball video contraptions. A few years back I had to dispose of a Heathkit GR-2000 25 TV w/onscreen digital clock option. Alas, it worked great, but the digital matrix tuner did not like CATV (ch. 2-13 only). Its entire chassis was copper plated steel. All pcb's were 94V0 and, typical of Heath products, documented more than thoroughly. Very well made! kyle -Original Message- From: Ralph Cameron [mailto:ral...@igs.net] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:41 PM To: Ehler, Kyle; 'Rich Nute'; 'EMC and Safety list' Subject: Re: TV nostalgia And lest we forget the Hallicrafters electrostatic deflection systems. You could sure get a poke off those. Ralph Cameron - Original Message - From: Ehler, Kyle To: 'Rich Nute' ; 'EMC and Safety list' Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:23 AM Subject: RE: TV nostalgia My experience was with the Packard-Bell transistorized models. I think the aversion I have was prejudiced by the fellow who mentored me. I had little reason to doubt, but then the sets I worked on, had a callback history that may have been created by my mentor. -kyle -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 5:36 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: TV nostalgia Okay... more nostalgia and a bit on safety back in those days... so that we don't stray too far from the subject matter of this forum. My first TV was a Motorola 7-inch round in a Bakelite cabinet. The speaker was the same size as the CRT. My second was the famous RCA 10-inch round chassis with 32 tubes. I could pull out 15 tubes and still have a usable picture. Kyle mentions Packard Bell, which I considered a straight-forward, good product. It used the Standard Coil turret tuner. The one that won my respect was Muntz TV. It was CHEAP! When you looked inside the chassis, there was nothing there compared to the other TVs. They really knew how to take the cost out of the TV! Amazingly enough, its picture was among the best, and its reliability was indeed the best -- no parts to go bad! The company was owned by Mad Man Muntz, the classic Los Angeles used car dealer. In the mid-fifties, GE came out with a transformerless 17-inch TV. One side of the power line was tied to the chassis (2-wire plug back in those days). The only protection was the plastic knob on the shafts of the various controls. When servicing this TV, you quickly learned never to touch the chassis! The power supply was a simple full-wave rectified power line. The tube heaters were connected in a series-parallel arrangement. These sets were the initiation of UL's investigation into antenna coupling capacitors. These capacitors provided the isolation between the TV antenna terminals and the mains voltage. TV sets of those days consumed between 400 and 600 watts. When they were turned on, the cold filaments were a very low impedance, so the turn-on current was very high. The off-on switch was often mounted on the back of the volume control. Eventually, the contact resistance of the switch would grow to the point where the I**2*R power would melt the solder and the power wires would come loose. It was common to have a customer report that his TV was dead, and it was due to the lack of a good connection to the switch. At one company, we had metal bat-handle toggles blow out of the switch due to the cold filament load. Out of this experience, UL developed the requirements for the TV-rated switch, which had specially-designed contacts that would
RE: TV nostalgia
True, but if the display range and bandwidth was tunable, and shown in 3-D chroma (similar to thermal imagers) rather than time domain -the emissions would make sense to the wearer. After all, even modern spectrum analyzers cannot show full bandwidth without compromising adjustments. -k -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 12:29 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: TV nostalgia 95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote: Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). Yes, it sounds much more attractive than a sniffer, which would produce BAD smells around some equipment. And it isn't technically unfeasible. The problem is the poor resolution, even a microwave frequencies, due to the wavelength of the emission. At 150 kHz, the wavelength is 2 km, so only very BIG things are visible. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest.
RE: TV nostalgia
Kyle writes .. Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). Ah! I believe one exists! For PCB's anyway. I did not believe it when I read about in an EMC magazine (Compliance journal I think), so I asked for a demo last month and true to his word, the man came in and showed me their new invention: the 'EMC Scanner'. I had him scan one of my PCB's and indeed it picked up all the frequencies I had picked up at the test house, but in addition, gave me a graphical picture where exactly (down to the IC!) the emissions were coming from! Check out http://www.etsi.co.uk Best regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Ehler, Kyle [SMTP:keh...@lsil.com] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 2:08 PM To: 'Doug McKean'; EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject:RE: TV nostalgia Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). A rig like this could add a pc for compliance recognition/cataloging and perhaps someday eliminate the need for OATS, TEM cells and other investigatinve methods. The system could also harass on a per sample basis in situ mfg. product. -kyle, KC0IQE -Original Message- From: Doug McKean [mailto:dmck...@corp.auspex.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:40 PM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: Re: TV nostalgia snip Now, if we could just train ourselves to sniff out some of those pesky EMI problems ... - Doug McKean _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. File: ATT1.htm _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: TV nostalgia
20010806225804.SIIR21723.femail41.sdc1.sfba.home.com@[65.11.150.27], Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com inimitably wrote: You could use an array of very short dipoles or small loops and gain in resolution by giving up efficiency, meaning that the viewer would have to be near the source. Well, very short dipoles can give us the broadband response we need. Suppose we look at 30 MHz as the lower limit? The lower frequencies are controlled by conducted emissions limits, in many cases, anyway. We need a 2-dimensional array of very short dipoles, each of which is connected through an amplifier and detector to one pixel of a backlit LCD screen. Suitable optics then create a virtual image for each eye to see. Anyone want to have a go? (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: TV nostalgia
You could use an array of very short dipoles or small loops and gain in resolution by giving up efficiency, meaning that the viewer would have to be near the source. Although I have no detailed knowledge of it, I expect this is the principle behind the devices upon which you lay an operating PCB and the device maps hot spots. But clearly you will never get optical or IR viewer resolutions. -- From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: TV nostalgia Date: Mon, Aug 6, 2001, 12:28 PM 95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote: Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). Yes, it sounds much more attractive than a sniffer, which would produce BAD smells around some equipment. And it isn't technically unfeasible. The problem is the poor resolution, even a microwave frequencies, due to the wavelength of the emission. At 150 kHz, the wavelength is 2 km, so only very BIG things are visible. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: TV nostalgia
95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote: Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). Yes, it sounds much more attractive than a sniffer, which would produce BAD smells around some equipment. And it isn't technically unfeasible. The problem is the poor resolution, even a microwave frequencies, due to the wavelength of the emission. At 150 kHz, the wavelength is 2 km, so only very BIG things are visible. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: TV nostalgia
Another thing you younger guys (and ladies) may not know is that Mad Man Muntz was essentially responsible for the 4 track (anyone remember those) and ultimately the 8 track stereos in cars. He was quite a marketer. Rick -Original Message- From: Price, Ed [mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 8:28 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: TV nostalgia -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 3:36 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: TV nostalgia Okay... more nostalgia and a bit on safety back in those days... so that we don't stray too far from the subject matter of this forum. SNIP The one that won my respect was Muntz TV. It was CHEAP! When you looked inside the chassis, there was nothing there compared to the other TVs. They really knew how to take the cost out of the TV! Amazingly enough, its picture was among the best, and its reliability was indeed the best -- no parts to go bad! The company was owned by Mad Man Muntz, the classic Los Angeles used car dealer. SNIP Best regards, Rich Here's the anecdotal story I heard about the Man Man Muntz design technique. Muntz would commission a TV design, from professional TV engineers, since he was admittedly not a circuit designer. He would then attack the working prototype, removing one part at a time. If the TV still worked, he would remove another part. If he killed it, the part went back in, and he tried another part. Eventually, he was down to a low parts count. (Well, if it isn't true, it ought to be!) This resulted in a drifty, low sensitivity, noisy TV. But in those days, there were only a couple of VHF stations in any metro area. And the receivers were used within 10 miles or so of the transmitters. For their time, they were OK. But as people moved out to the suburbs, and more channels were used in a region, Muntz receivers began to show their problems. I try to get designers to emulate the Muntz technique for EMI control. It's a lot easier to have more EMI control components in your design, and remove a few of them during testing, than it is to have to add control components to your device. BTW, I remember that, in the mid 50's in Chicago, Muntz was really big on using skywriting advertising! Regards, Ed Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: TV nostalgia
-Original Message- From: Rich Nute [mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 3:36 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: TV nostalgia Okay... more nostalgia and a bit on safety back in those days... so that we don't stray too far from the subject matter of this forum. SNIP The one that won my respect was Muntz TV. It was CHEAP! When you looked inside the chassis, there was nothing there compared to the other TVs. They really knew how to take the cost out of the TV! Amazingly enough, its picture was among the best, and its reliability was indeed the best -- no parts to go bad! The company was owned by Mad Man Muntz, the classic Los Angeles used car dealer. SNIP Best regards, Rich Here's the anecdotal story I heard about the Man Man Muntz design technique. Muntz would commission a TV design, from professional TV engineers, since he was admittedly not a circuit designer. He would then attack the working prototype, removing one part at a time. If the TV still worked, he would remove another part. If he killed it, the part went back in, and he tried another part. Eventually, he was down to a low parts count. (Well, if it isn't true, it ought to be!) This resulted in a drifty, low sensitivity, noisy TV. But in those days, there were only a couple of VHF stations in any metro area. And the receivers were used within 10 miles or so of the transmitters. For their time, they were OK. But as people moved out to the suburbs, and more channels were used in a region, Muntz receivers began to show their problems. I try to get designers to emulate the Muntz technique for EMI control. It's a lot easier to have more EMI control components in your design, and remove a few of them during testing, than it is to have to add control components to your device. BTW, I remember that, in the mid 50's in Chicago, Muntz was really big on using skywriting advertising! Regards, Ed Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: TV nostalgia
Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). A rig like this could add a pc for compliance recognition/cataloging and perhaps someday eliminate the need for OATS, TEM cells and other investigatinve methods. The system could also harass on a per sample basis in situ mfg. product. -kyle, KC0IQE -Original Message- From: Doug McKean [mailto:dmck...@corp.auspex.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:40 PM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: Re: TV nostalgia snip Now, if we could just train ourselves to sniff out some of those pesky EMI problems ... - Doug McKean
Re: TV nostalgia
As I recall, the old pcb material was made from urea and smelled like it. Or the exploding selenium rectifiers were a dead giveaway, just like H2S. - Original Message - From: oover...@lexmark.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 5:55 PM Subject: RE: TV nostalgia I have noticed several responses related to the smell of the old equipment. I had been thinking the very same thing. You could trouble-shoot by the type of smell a failed component produced (cap vs. resistor, vs choke, etc.) Ever notice how connected one's memory and smells are connected? Think about the number of things, both good and bad, that particular smells recall. Fresh cut grass, a certain type of perfume, a new or old car, fresh paint, burning leaves, foods, etc. rbusche%es@interlock.lexmark.com on 08/03/2001 05:02:21 PM Please respond to rbusche%es@interlock.lexmark.com To: emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: Oscar Overton/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: RE: TV nostalgia How about the reported X-Ray emissions from the old high voltage regulators and the 25-35KV anode voltages? Those old color sets were beasts. It is interesting to note that the process of keeping the CRT filaments warm, (instant on) was the cause of numerous TV fires. But you know, there's something pleasant (or nostalgic) about the smell of a tube type radio or TV. Perhaps it's just my age. Rick Busche -Original Message- From: Ehler, Kyle [mailto:keh...@lsil.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:38 PM To: 'Ralph Cameron'; 'EMC and Safety list' Subject: RE: TV nostalgia Which reminds me of other oddball video contraptions. A few years back I had to dispose of a Heathkit GR-2000 25 TV w/onscreen digital clock option. Alas, it worked great, but the digital matrix tuner did not like CATV (ch. 2-13 only). Its entire chassis was copper plated steel. All pcb's were 94V0 and, typical of Heath products, documented more than thoroughly. Very well made! kyle -Original Message- From: Ralph Cameron [mailto:ral...@igs.net] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:41 PM To: Ehler, Kyle; 'Rich Nute'; 'EMC and Safety list' Subject: Re: TV nostalgia And lest we forget the Hallicrafters electrostatic deflection systems. You could sure get a poke off those. Ralph Cameron - Original Message - From: Ehler, Kyle mailto:keh...@lsil.com To: 'Rich Nute' mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com ; 'EMC and Safety list' mailto:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:23 AM Subject: RE: TV nostalgia My experience was with the Packard-Bell transistorized models. I think the aversion I have was prejudiced by the fellow who mentored me. I had little reason to doubt, but then the sets I worked on, had a callback history that may have been created by my mentor. -kyle -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [ mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com ] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 5:36 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org mailto:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: TV nostalgia Okay... more nostalgia and a bit on safety back in those days... so that we don't stray too far from the subject matter of this forum. My first TV was a Motorola 7-inch round in a Bakelite cabinet. The speaker was the same size as the CRT. My second was the famous RCA 10-inch round chassis with 32 tubes. I could pull out 15 tubes and still have a usable picture. Kyle mentions Packard Bell, which I considered a straight-forward, good product. It used the Standard Coil turret tuner. The one that won my respect was Muntz TV. It was CHEAP! When you looked inside the chassis, there was nothing there compared to the other TVs. They really knew how to take the cost out of the TV! Amazingly enough, its picture was among the best, and its reliability was indeed the best -- no parts to go bad! The company was owned by Mad Man Muntz, the classic Los Angeles used car dealer. In the mid-fifties, GE came out with a transformerless 17-inch TV. One side of the power line was tied to the chassis (2-wire plug back in those days). The only protection was the plastic knob on the shafts of the various controls. When servicing this TV, you quickly learned never to touch the chassis! The power supply was a simple full-wave rectified power line. The tube heaters were connected in a series-parallel arrangement. These sets were the initiation of UL's investigation into antenna coupling capacitors. These capacitors provided the isolation between the TV antenna terminals and the mains voltage. TV sets of those days consumed between 400 and 600 watts. When they were turned on, the cold filaments were a very low impedance, so the turn-on current was very high. The off-on switch
Re: TV nostalgia
I have noticed several responses related to the smell of the old equipment. I had been thinking the very same thing. You could trouble-shoot by the type of smell a failed component produced (cap vs. resistor, vs choke, etc.) Ever notice how connected one's memory and smells are connected? Think about the number of things, both good and bad, that particular smells recall. Fresh cut grass, a certain type of perfume, a new or old car, fresh paint, burning leaves, foods, etc. Your olfactory nerves are better wired into your memory than any other input. The processing is done right at the cell site since it's simple chemical reactions and the results are carried to the brain for a direct feed. No 3D manipulation of objects for interpretation by memory is needed, no fourier breakdown of audio is needed, no association with learned speech is needed. There's a time in the spring after a little drizzle which brings back all sorts of memories. Only happens a couple times a year and always catches me off guard. Some research into smell has produced some sniffers which show promise. In a few years, they may even be better than a dog's sense of smell. They've had a few amazing cases of dogs finding people and/or bodies. One followed the scent of a child inside a car which had traveled up onto a highway for several miles then off onto a side road. Another where the handler put his dog in a boat and rowed around a lake until his dog reacted over a certain spot on the lake. Divers found a body almost directly underneath the spot. Diving and/or dragging the lake would have taken a long time and may not have succeeded. The Discovery channel had a whole show about it. Fascinating stuff. Now, if we could just train ourselves to sniff out some of those pesky EMI problems ... - Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: TV nostalgia
I have noticed several responses related to the smell of the old equipment. I had been thinking the very same thing. You could trouble-shoot by the type of smell a failed component produced (cap vs. resistor, vs choke, etc.) Ever notice how connected one's memory and smells are connected? Think about the number of things, both good and bad, that particular smells recall. Fresh cut grass, a certain type of perfume, a new or old car, fresh paint, burning leaves, foods, etc. rbusche%es@interlock.lexmark.com on 08/03/2001 05:02:21 PM Please respond to rbusche%es@interlock.lexmark.com To: emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: Oscar Overton/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: RE: TV nostalgia How about the reported X-Ray emissions from the old high voltage regulators and the 25-35KV anode voltages? Those old color sets were beasts. It is interesting to note that the process of keeping the CRT filaments warm, (instant on) was the cause of numerous TV fires. But you know, there's something pleasant (or nostalgic) about the smell of a tube type radio or TV. Perhaps it's just my age. Rick Busche -Original Message- From: Ehler, Kyle [mailto:keh...@lsil.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:38 PM To: 'Ralph Cameron'; 'EMC and Safety list' Subject: RE: TV nostalgia Which reminds me of other oddball video contraptions. A few years back I had to dispose of a Heathkit GR-2000 25 TV w/onscreen digital clock option. Alas, it worked great, but the digital matrix tuner did not like CATV (ch. 2-13 only). Its entire chassis was copper plated steel. All pcb's were 94V0 and, typical of Heath products, documented more than thoroughly. Very well made! kyle -Original Message- From: Ralph Cameron [mailto:ral...@igs.net] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:41 PM To: Ehler, Kyle; 'Rich Nute'; 'EMC and Safety list' Subject: Re: TV nostalgia And lest we forget the Hallicrafters electrostatic deflection systems. You could sure get a poke off those. Ralph Cameron - Original Message - From: Ehler, Kyle mailto:keh...@lsil.com To: 'Rich Nute' mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com ; 'EMC and Safety list' mailto:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:23 AM Subject: RE: TV nostalgia My experience was with the Packard-Bell transistorized models. I think the aversion I have was prejudiced by the fellow who mentored me. I had little reason to doubt, but then the sets I worked on, had a callback history that may have been created by my mentor. -kyle -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [ mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com ] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 5:36 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org mailto:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: TV nostalgia Okay... more nostalgia and a bit on safety back in those days... so that we don't stray too far from the subject matter of this forum. My first TV was a Motorola 7-inch round in a Bakelite cabinet. The speaker was the same size as the CRT. My second was the famous RCA 10-inch round chassis with 32 tubes. I could pull out 15 tubes and still have a usable picture. Kyle mentions Packard Bell, which I considered a straight-forward, good product. It used the Standard Coil turret tuner. The one that won my respect was Muntz TV. It was CHEAP! When you looked inside the chassis, there was nothing there compared to the other TVs. They really knew how to take the cost out of the TV! Amazingly enough, its picture was among the best, and its reliability was indeed the best -- no parts to go bad! The company was owned by Mad Man Muntz, the classic Los Angeles used car dealer. In the mid-fifties, GE came out with a transformerless 17-inch TV. One side of the power line was tied to the chassis (2-wire plug back in those days). The only protection was the plastic knob on the shafts of the various controls. When servicing this TV, you quickly learned never to touch the chassis! The power supply was a simple full-wave rectified power line. The tube heaters were connected in a series-parallel arrangement. These sets were the initiation of UL's investigation into antenna coupling capacitors. These capacitors provided the isolation between the TV antenna terminals and the mains voltage. TV sets of those days consumed between 400 and 600 watts. When they were turned on, the cold filaments were a very low impedance, so the turn-on current was very high. The off-on switch was often mounted on the back of the volume control. Eventually, the contact resistance of the switch would grow to the point where the I**2*R power would melt the solder and the power wires would come loose. It was common to have a customer report that his TV was dead, and it was due to the lack of a good connection to the switch. At one company, we had metal bat-handle toggles blow out of the switch due to the cold filament load. Out of this experience, UL developed the requirements for the TV-rated switch, which had specially
RE: TV nostalgia
I had the GR-2050, which was the 21 inch version of that set. Worked great until the picture tube faded off into the sunset (actually, sunsets didn't look so good as it was the red gun that was dying). Real radios (and TVs) glow in the dark! Ghery Pettit, N6TPT -Original Message- From: Ehler, Kyle [mailto:keh...@lsil.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 1:38 PM To: 'Ralph Cameron'; 'EMC and Safety list' Subject: RE: TV nostalgia Which reminds me of other oddball video contraptions. A few years back I had to dispose of a Heathkit GR-2000 25 TV w/onscreen digital clock option. Alas, it worked great, but the digital matrix tuner did not like CATV (ch. 2-13 only). Its entire chassis was copper plated steel. All pcb's were 94V0 and, typical of Heath products, documented more than thoroughly. Very well made! kyle -Original Message- From: Ralph Cameron [mailto:ral...@igs.net] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:41 PM To: Ehler, Kyle; 'Rich Nute'; 'EMC and Safety list' Subject: Re: TV nostalgia And lest we forget the Hallicrafters electrostatic deflection systems. You could sure get a poke off those. Ralph Cameron - Original Message - From: Ehler, Kyle mailto:keh...@lsil.com To: 'Rich Nute' mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com ; 'EMC and Safety list' mailto:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:23 AM Subject: RE: TV nostalgia My experience was with the Packard-Bell transistorized models. I think the aversion I have was prejudiced by the fellow who mentored me. I had little reason to doubt, but then the sets I worked on, had a callback history that may have been created by my mentor. -kyle -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [ mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com ] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 5:36 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org mailto:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: TV nostalgia Okay... more nostalgia and a bit on safety back in those days... so that we don't stray too far from the subject matter of this forum. My first TV was a Motorola 7-inch round in a Bakelite cabinet. The speaker was the same size as the CRT. My second was the famous RCA 10-inch round chassis with 32 tubes. I could pull out 15 tubes and still have a usable picture. Kyle mentions Packard Bell, which I considered a straight-forward, good product. It used the Standard Coil turret tuner. The one that won my respect was Muntz TV. It was CHEAP! When you looked inside the chassis, there was nothing there compared to the other TVs. They really knew how to take the cost out of the TV! Amazingly enough, its picture was among the best, and its reliability was indeed the best -- no parts to go bad! The company was owned by Mad Man Muntz, the classic Los Angeles used car dealer. In the mid-fifties, GE came out with a transformerless 17-inch TV. One side of the power line was tied to the chassis (2-wire plug back in those days). The only protection was the plastic knob on the shafts of the various controls. When servicing this TV, you quickly learned never to touch the chassis! The power supply was a simple full-wave rectified power line. The tube heaters were connected in a series-parallel arrangement. These sets were the initiation of UL's investigation into antenna coupling capacitors. These capacitors provided the isolation between the TV antenna terminals and the mains voltage. TV sets of those days consumed between 400 and 600 watts. When they were turned on, the cold filaments were a very low impedance, so the turn-on current was very high. The off-on switch was often mounted on the back of the volume control. Eventually, the contact resistance of the switch would grow to the point where the I**2*R power would melt the solder and the power wires would come loose. It was common to have a customer report that his TV was dead, and it was due to the lack of a good connection to the switch. At one company, we had metal bat-handle toggles blow out of the switch due to the cold filament load. Out of this experience, UL developed the requirements for the TV-rated switch, which had specially-designed contacts that would not overheat when used in a TV or similar application. Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc
RE: TV nostalgia
How about the reported X-Ray emissions from the old high voltage regulators and the 25-35KV anode voltages? Those old color sets were beasts. It is interesting to note that the process of keeping the CRT filaments warm, (instant on) was the cause of numerous TV fires. But you know, there's something pleasant (or nostalgic) about the smell of a tube type radio or TV. Perhaps it's just my age. Rick Busche -Original Message- From: Ehler, Kyle [mailto:keh...@lsil.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:38 PM To: 'Ralph Cameron'; 'EMC and Safety list' Subject: RE: TV nostalgia Which reminds me of other oddball video contraptions. A few years back I had to dispose of a Heathkit GR-2000 25 TV w/onscreen digital clock option. Alas, it worked great, but the digital matrix tuner did not like CATV (ch. 2-13 only). Its entire chassis was copper plated steel. All pcb's were 94V0 and, typical of Heath products, documented more than thoroughly. Very well made! kyle -Original Message- From: Ralph Cameron [mailto:ral...@igs.net] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:41 PM To: Ehler, Kyle; 'Rich Nute'; 'EMC and Safety list' Subject: Re: TV nostalgia And lest we forget the Hallicrafters electrostatic deflection systems. You could sure get a poke off those. Ralph Cameron - Original Message - From: Ehler, Kyle mailto:keh...@lsil.com To: 'Rich Nute' mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com ; 'EMC and Safety list' mailto:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:23 AM Subject: RE: TV nostalgia My experience was with the Packard-Bell transistorized models. I think the aversion I have was prejudiced by the fellow who mentored me. I had little reason to doubt, but then the sets I worked on, had a callback history that may have been created by my mentor. -kyle -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [ mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com ] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 5:36 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org mailto:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: TV nostalgia Okay... more nostalgia and a bit on safety back in those days... so that we don't stray too far from the subject matter of this forum. My first TV was a Motorola 7-inch round in a Bakelite cabinet. The speaker was the same size as the CRT. My second was the famous RCA 10-inch round chassis with 32 tubes. I could pull out 15 tubes and still have a usable picture. Kyle mentions Packard Bell, which I considered a straight-forward, good product. It used the Standard Coil turret tuner. The one that won my respect was Muntz TV. It was CHEAP! When you looked inside the chassis, there was nothing there compared to the other TVs. They really knew how to take the cost out of the TV! Amazingly enough, its picture was among the best, and its reliability was indeed the best -- no parts to go bad! The company was owned by Mad Man Muntz, the classic Los Angeles used car dealer. In the mid-fifties, GE came out with a transformerless 17-inch TV. One side of the power line was tied to the chassis (2-wire plug back in those days). The only protection was the plastic knob on the shafts of the various controls. When servicing this TV, you quickly learned never to touch the chassis! The power supply was a simple full-wave rectified power line. The tube heaters were connected in a series-parallel arrangement. These sets were the initiation of UL's investigation into antenna coupling capacitors. These capacitors provided the isolation between the TV antenna terminals and the mains voltage. TV sets of those days consumed between 400 and 600 watts. When they were turned on, the cold filaments were a very low impedance, so the turn-on current was very high. The off-on switch was often mounted on the back of the volume control. Eventually, the contact resistance of the switch would grow to the point where the I**2*R power would melt the solder and the power wires would come loose. It was common to have a customer report that his TV was dead, and it was due to the lack of a good connection to the switch. At one company, we had metal bat-handle toggles blow out of the switch due to the cold filament load. Out of this experience, UL developed the requirements for the TV-rated switch, which had specially-designed contacts that would not overheat when used in a TV or similar application. Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe
RE: TV nostalgia
Which reminds me of other oddball video contraptions. A few years back I had to dispose of a Heathkit GR-2000 25 TV w/onscreen digital clock option. Alas, it worked great, but the digital matrix tuner did not like CATV (ch. 2-13 only). Its entire chassis was copper plated steel. All pcb's were 94V0 and, typical of Heath products, documented more than thoroughly. Very well made! kyle -Original Message- From: Ralph Cameron [mailto:ral...@igs.net] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:41 PM To: Ehler, Kyle; 'Rich Nute'; 'EMC and Safety list' Subject: Re: TV nostalgia And lest we forget the Hallicrafters electrostatic deflection systems. You could sure get a poke off those. Ralph Cameron - Original Message - From: Ehler, Kyle mailto:keh...@lsil.com To: 'Rich Nute' mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com ; 'EMC and Safety list' mailto:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:23 AM Subject: RE: TV nostalgia My experience was with the Packard-Bell transistorized models. I think the aversion I have was prejudiced by the fellow who mentored me. I had little reason to doubt, but then the sets I worked on, had a callback history that may have been created by my mentor. -kyle -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [ mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com ] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 5:36 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org mailto:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: TV nostalgia Okay... more nostalgia and a bit on safety back in those days... so that we don't stray too far from the subject matter of this forum. My first TV was a Motorola 7-inch round in a Bakelite cabinet. The speaker was the same size as the CRT. My second was the famous RCA 10-inch round chassis with 32 tubes. I could pull out 15 tubes and still have a usable picture. Kyle mentions Packard Bell, which I considered a straight-forward, good product. It used the Standard Coil turret tuner. The one that won my respect was Muntz TV. It was CHEAP! When you looked inside the chassis, there was nothing there compared to the other TVs. They really knew how to take the cost out of the TV! Amazingly enough, its picture was among the best, and its reliability was indeed the best -- no parts to go bad! The company was owned by Mad Man Muntz, the classic Los Angeles used car dealer. In the mid-fifties, GE came out with a transformerless 17-inch TV. One side of the power line was tied to the chassis (2-wire plug back in those days). The only protection was the plastic knob on the shafts of the various controls. When servicing this TV, you quickly learned never to touch the chassis! The power supply was a simple full-wave rectified power line. The tube heaters were connected in a series-parallel arrangement. These sets were the initiation of UL's investigation into antenna coupling capacitors. These capacitors provided the isolation between the TV antenna terminals and the mains voltage. TV sets of those days consumed between 400 and 600 watts. When they were turned on, the cold filaments were a very low impedance, so the turn-on current was very high. The off-on switch was often mounted on the back of the volume control. Eventually, the contact resistance of the switch would grow to the point where the I**2*R power would melt the solder and the power wires would come loose. It was common to have a customer report that his TV was dead, and it was due to the lack of a good connection to the switch. At one company, we had metal bat-handle toggles blow out of the switch due to the cold filament load. Out of this experience, UL developed the requirements for the TV-rated switch, which had specially-designed contacts that would not overheat when used in a TV or similar application. Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: TV nostalgia
95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote: If they were'nt 'hand wired' who/what would have wired the chassis? robots? chimpanzees? Chimpanzees have hands - four of them, really. The implication was that sets that were not hand-wired were assembled by trained turnips. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: TV nostalgia
RE: TV nostalgiaAnd lest we forget the Hallicrafters electrostatic deflection systems. You could sure get a poke off those. Ralph Cameron - Original Message - From: Ehler, Kyle To: 'Rich Nute' ; 'EMC and Safety list' Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:23 AM Subject: RE: TV nostalgia My experience was with the Packard-Bell transistorized models. I think the aversion I have was prejudiced by the fellow who mentored me. I had little reason to doubt, but then the sets I worked on, had a callback history that may have been created by my mentor. -kyle -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 5:36 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: TV nostalgia Okay... more nostalgia and a bit on safety back in those days... so that we don't stray too far from the subject matter of this forum. My first TV was a Motorola 7-inch round in a Bakelite cabinet. The speaker was the same size as the CRT. My second was the famous RCA 10-inch round chassis with 32 tubes. I could pull out 15 tubes and still have a usable picture. Kyle mentions Packard Bell, which I considered a straight-forward, good product. It used the Standard Coil turret tuner. The one that won my respect was Muntz TV. It was CHEAP! When you looked inside the chassis, there was nothing there compared to the other TVs. They really knew how to take the cost out of the TV! Amazingly enough, its picture was among the best, and its reliability was indeed the best -- no parts to go bad! The company was owned by Mad Man Muntz, the classic Los Angeles used car dealer. In the mid-fifties, GE came out with a transformerless 17-inch TV. One side of the power line was tied to the chassis (2-wire plug back in those days). The only protection was the plastic knob on the shafts of the various controls. When servicing this TV, you quickly learned never to touch the chassis! The power supply was a simple full-wave rectified power line. The tube heaters were connected in a series-parallel arrangement. These sets were the initiation of UL's investigation into antenna coupling capacitors. These capacitors provided the isolation between the TV antenna terminals and the mains voltage. TV sets of those days consumed between 400 and 600 watts. When they were turned on, the cold filaments were a very low impedance, so the turn-on current was very high. The off-on switch was often mounted on the back of the volume control. Eventually, the contact resistance of the switch would grow to the point where the I**2*R power would melt the solder and the power wires would come loose. It was common to have a customer report that his TV was dead, and it was due to the lack of a good connection to the switch. At one company, we had metal bat-handle toggles blow out of the switch due to the cold filament load. Out of this experience, UL developed the requirements for the TV-rated switch, which had specially-designed contacts that would not overheat when used in a TV or similar application. Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: TV nostalgia
John Woodgate wrote: Rich Nute wrote: In the mid-fifties, GE came out with a transformerless 17-inch TV. One side of the power line was tied to the chassis (2-wire plug back in those days). The only protection was the plastic knob on the shafts of the various controls. When servicing this TV, you quickly learned never to touch the chassis! We had transformerless sets earlier in Europe, around 1951 IIRC, because we could get at least 200 V B-plus (see, I can speak American!) from a half-wave rectifier. Wasn't there a transformerless set accomplished by caps somewhere in the distant past? - Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: TV nostalgia
If they were'nt 'hand wired' who/what would have wired the chassis? robots? chimpanzees? Its funny how the public is led to believe that accepted status quo is somehow better than an emerging technology, but then as Jack points out, paper/phenolic was the best the technology had to offer at acceptable cost until a better understanding of the applications caused the development of improved standards, materials, and processes. Cheers, Kyle LSI Logic Inc. -Original Message- From: Cook, Jack [mailto:jack.c...@cax.usa.xerox.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 2:51 PM To: 'Rich Nute' Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Creepage dist. for more than 1000V ? Rich, Not really absurd given the quality of some of the board construction materials I saw in those early days. For one thing, the materials did not suffer heat well for very long (paper/phenolic?) - remember they were still using tubes or later a mix of tubes semi's. I also worked in TV shops during school and can remember thoroughly cooked PCB materials. Regards, Jack Xerox EMC -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 10:45 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Creepage dist. for more than 1000V ? Hi Terry: I don't recall the Sony but do recall the Philco and that Zenith held out with the `hand wired' chassis. Now that you mention it... I do indeed recall that campaign. But, I did not -- then -- realize the context. Today, looking back, that campaign was really quite absurd! But it worked! Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: TV nostalgia
200108022235.paa26...@epgc196.sdd.hp.com, Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com inimitably wrote: In the mid-fifties, GE came out with a transformerless 17-inch TV. One side of the power line was tied to the chassis (2-wire plug back in those days). The only protection was the plastic knob on the shafts of the various controls. When servicing this TV, you quickly learned never to touch the chassis! We had transformerless sets earlier in Europe, around 1951 IIRC, because we could get at least 200 V B-plus (see, I can speak American!) from a half-wave rectifier. The power supply was a simple full-wave rectified power line. How could you full-wave rectify the 120 V supply? A bridge rectifier? Or was it a voltage-doubler? The tube heaters were connected in a series-parallel arrangement. Another problem we didn't have. In fact, some sets had a 100 mA heater chain, using peculiarly British (Mazda) valves with B8A bases. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
TV nostalgia
Okay... more nostalgia and a bit on safety back in those days... so that we don't stray too far from the subject matter of this forum. My first TV was a Motorola 7-inch round in a Bakelite cabinet. The speaker was the same size as the CRT. My second was the famous RCA 10-inch round chassis with 32 tubes. I could pull out 15 tubes and still have a usable picture. Kyle mentions Packard Bell, which I considered a straight-forward, good product. It used the Standard Coil turret tuner. The one that won my respect was Muntz TV. It was CHEAP! When you looked inside the chassis, there was nothing there compared to the other TVs. They really knew how to take the cost out of the TV! Amazingly enough, its picture was among the best, and its reliability was indeed the best -- no parts to go bad! The company was owned by Mad Man Muntz, the classic Los Angeles used car dealer. In the mid-fifties, GE came out with a transformerless 17-inch TV. One side of the power line was tied to the chassis (2-wire plug back in those days). The only protection was the plastic knob on the shafts of the various controls. When servicing this TV, you quickly learned never to touch the chassis! The power supply was a simple full-wave rectified power line. The tube heaters were connected in a series-parallel arrangement. These sets were the initiation of UL's investigation into antenna coupling capacitors. These capacitors provided the isolation between the TV antenna terminals and the mains voltage. TV sets of those days consumed between 400 and 600 watts. When they were turned on, the cold filaments were a very low impedance, so the turn-on current was very high. The off-on switch was often mounted on the back of the volume control. Eventually, the contact resistance of the switch would grow to the point where the I**2*R power would melt the solder and the power wires would come loose. It was common to have a customer report that his TV was dead, and it was due to the lack of a good connection to the switch. At one company, we had metal bat-handle toggles blow out of the switch due to the cold filament load. Out of this experience, UL developed the requirements for the TV-rated switch, which had specially-designed contacts that would not overheat when used in a TV or similar application. Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
