Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 11 May 2016 02:22:41 Peter Blodow wrote:

> Gene,
> cast iron is easy to cut, mill and turn because it contains lots of
> carbon, better known as graphite which is a natural solid lubricant.
> Using water in addition, if any, is merely for cooling and carrying
> away the debris. However, if the casting has been cooled very rapidly,
> it may be surface hardened (this is used for industrial purposes,
> too). You won't get a scratch on such "hard cast iron" with ordinary
> tools. So it may be that diamond cutting is useful for getting through
> the surface, the rest could be cut with any old steel tool.

And far less precisely.  I left about .1" to be able to make this the 
exact height to put the tip of a 5/16" cutting tool as exactly at the 
center height, minus a 1/32" brass shim under the tool in a stock 4 
cornered tool holder which is far more rigid than any QC holder in the 
sizes suitable for use on such a small lathe. I also intend to hollow 
cut both top and bottom faces by a thou or so, so that the mating 
surfaces are as widely contacted as possible when the 10mm holddown bolt 
for the tool holder is brought to full tension, and that the bottom will 
be in as wide a contact as is practical.  The bottom is mated to the 
crossfeed with a loose plug, flanged to be pulled up against the flange 
by a pair of 6mm cap screws that one normally loosens to adjust the 
compound angle.

But I see that in addition to the tool holder mount being moved to the 
right and back, that I will also need to allow more clearance to a large 
workpiece by removing at least another 1/2" from the front for large 
pieces as I am backed out about as far as the crossfeed can, and quite a 
ways out on the compound, and the workpiece is nibbling on the compounds 
base.  IOW, selling this lathe as a 7" is pure marketing BS as its real 
limit is about 4".  Only with a lantern post tool holder would it ever 
clear 5". And my attempts to build one of those haven't been too 
successful, mainly due to lack of vertical space for the rocker key and 
socket. I may make 2 of these, with the 2nd about a half inch thinner 
just so a lantern post could be made to work.

> I would have used one of my angle grinders with a grinding disc for
> steel and cut down that cast iron piece in a matter of minutes. It all
> depends on the right bonding material of the grains.
>
> By the way; tell an old non-American, what is the idea of this lawyer
> biz you mentioned?
>
> Peter

Probably the most famous quote from the writings of William Shakespear.

I find in my dealings that they have studied the law, often to find the 
exceptions to the rule of common sense, so deeply that no common sense 
survives in their world view.  That turns the great majority of them 
into leeches on society.  Leeches are NOT productive members of any 
specie.

> Am 10.05.2016 23:57, schrieb Gene Heskett:
> > On Tuesday 10 May 2016 15:41:57 andy pugh wrote:
> >> On 10 May 2016 at 14:28, Roland Jollivet
> >> 
> >
> > wrote:
> >>> I once watched a contractor dry cut rebar with a diamond blade
> >>> using a cut-off saw. I wanted to tell him you can't do that,
> >>
> >> http://www.husqvarna.com/us/construction/products/diamond-blades-fo
> >>r-p ower-cutters/di5-ductile-iron-blade/
> >
> > If I can put yet another oar in this water, it seems to me that
> > Husqvarna et all, is far more interested in selling you another
> > blade at quite a nice profit margin than in doing a job correctly.
> >
> > Diamond, spinning at those speeds, will shatter from impact, and if
> > not adequately cooled, will get hot enough to ablate/evaporate the
> > diamond, both of which will result in the premature destruction of
> > the blades ability to cut anything.
> >
> > Unfortunately, when you are paying the person who needs to cut such
> > by the hour, it quickly becomes expedient to buy the fresh blade to
> > replace the one destroyed by the pressure to "get the job done".  It
> > becomes a C.O.D.B.
> >
> > By running it wet, you can somewhat alleviate the heat that
> > evaporates the diamond.  But note the "somewhat" because the heating
> > is localized, confined to the actual contact of that grain of
> > diamond with the material being cut, and at the rim speeds of a
> > modern power saw, there is 100x more air at the contact interface
> > than water as its carried into the slot being cut by the rapidity of
> > the rim, which itself is busily throwing that water away from the
> > blade and generally makeing a huge mess of the environment up to 15
> > or 20 feet away.
> >
> > At nominally 400 revs on a 10" wheel, the impact shock that shatters
> > the diamond is reduced by 10x, reducing the cutting degradation rate
> > by an estimated 10,000%.  And if not pushing the blade, but just
> > letting the diamond carry away the cutting dust its making, the
> > heating will also be reduced.  In making those two cuts thru a solid
> > casting about 4.25" in diameter, 

Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[Peter Blodow]

Gene,
cast iron is easy to cut, mill and turn because it contains lots of 
carbon, better known as graphite which is a natural solid lubricant. 
Using water in addition, if any, is merely for cooling and carrying away 
the debris. However, if the casting has been cooled very rapidly, it may 
be surface hardened (this is used for industrial purposes, too). You 
won't get a scratch on such "hard cast iron" with ordinary tools. So it 
may be that diamond cutting is useful for getting through the surface, 
the rest could be cut with any old steel tool.

I would have used one of my angle grinders with a grinding disc for 
steel and cut down that cast iron piece in a matter of minutes. It all 
depends on the right bonding material of the grains.

By the way; tell an old non-American, what is the idea of this lawyer 
biz you mentioned?

Peter

Am 10.05.2016 23:57, schrieb Gene Heskett:
> On Tuesday 10 May 2016 15:41:57 andy pugh wrote:
>
>> On 10 May 2016 at 14:28, Roland Jollivet 
> wrote:
>>> I once watched a contractor dry cut rebar with a diamond blade using
>>> a cut-off saw. I wanted to tell him you can't do that,
>> http://www.husqvarna.com/us/construction/products/diamond-blades-for-p
>> ower-cutters/di5-ductile-iron-blade/
> If I can put yet another oar in this water, it seems to me that Husqvarna
> et all, is far more interested in selling you another blade at quite a
> nice profit margin than in doing a job correctly.
>
> Diamond, spinning at those speeds, will shatter from impact, and if not
> adequately cooled, will get hot enough to ablate/evaporate the diamond,
> both of which will result in the premature destruction of the blades
> ability to cut anything.
>
> Unfortunately, when you are paying the person who needs to cut such by
> the hour, it quickly becomes expedient to buy the fresh blade to replace
> the one destroyed by the pressure to "get the job done".  It becomes a
> C.O.D.B.
>
> By running it wet, you can somewhat alleviate the heat that evaporates
> the diamond.  But note the "somewhat" because the heating is localized,
> confined to the actual contact of that grain of diamond with the
> material being cut, and at the rim speeds of a modern power saw, there
> is 100x more air at the contact interface than water as its carried into
> the slot being cut by the rapidity of the rim, which itself is busily
> throwing that water away from the blade and generally makeing a huge
> mess of the environment up to 15 or 20 feet away.
>
> At nominally 400 revs on a 10" wheel, the impact shock that shatters the
> diamond is reduced by 10x, reducing the cutting degradation rate by an
> estimated 10,000%.  And if not pushing the blade, but just letting the
> diamond carry away the cutting dust its making, the heating will also be
> reduced.  In making those two cuts thru a solid casting about 4.25" in
> diameter, I watched the rim temp with an IR thermometer, and never saw
> it exceed 120F at about 3/8" in from the blades edge.  It appeared the
> actual edge of the blade was running 15F cooler.
>
> Yes, it took a long time to do those 2 cuts.  Had I been physically able
> to attend to the mill full time, about a day a cut.  But that blade can
> do that, at that cut rate, probably another 100 times.
>
> Running that slow and easy, wet or dry has relatively little effect on
> blade longevity because there is not enough heat, or a high enough
> impact shock to damage the diamond.
>
> All of this seduction of the canine could have been alleviated had I been
> able to back the clock up to about 1948 when an uncle of mine landed a
> contract to cut the mounting bosses off an eyeglass lens makers cast
> iron forms so his forms would be usable in a newer machine.  My uncle
> built the first abrasive cutup saw I ever saw, and he didn't have any
> lawyers telling him what he could not do.  In '48, the abrasive wheels
> came in 10 or 11", you wrapped them on a shield of steel about 1/4"
> thick to catch the shrapnel as the recommended rpms for those wheels was
> pretty close to 9500.  So he first used a pulley ratio that gave about
> 7500, but it wasn't fast enough to easily start the fire.  So he went to
> town and got the next smaller pulley, which gave it almost exactly 10
> grand.
>
> Bringing the wheel to the casting, it only took 3 or 4 seconds to start
> the fire, and it literally fell thru the 1.25" square block of cast they
> were cutting off in another 2 or 3 seconds.  He blew up one wheel in
> cutting about 200 of them off that way.
>
> But can I buy an abrasive saw that will cut like that today?  Not no, but
> hell no, at least not without putting 5 grand or more into it.  The best
> OTC saw turns a 14" wheel about 4 grand, and it cannot get the fire
> started in a 1/2x2" bar of cold roll without 3 or 4 minutes of leaning
> heavily on the blade just to get the fire started.  The damned lawyers
> and bean counters have caused the wheel speed to be reduced (14" wheels
> are 

Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[BRIAN GLACKIN]

Diamonds will cut just about anything.  The trick is matching the matrix
holding the diamond bits to the material being cut.  I have dealt with
diamond drilling quite a bit in my profession (mining of industrial
minerals).  The harder the materials to be cut, often the better the
diamonds like it provided the matrix wears out slightly faster than the
diamonds to prevent faceting of the exposed bits.  Always want to prevent
polishing of the diamonds.  Saw this in upstate New York gneiss where a
crew drilled 300 feet in 12 hours with an NQ bit (75.7mm dia with a 10.5mm
thick annulus).  Normal rates are 100-175ft in a 12 hour shift.  This
included punching through several seams of magnetite.  I would be more
worried about trying to cut aluminum where it would likely cold weld the
bit with or without water.

In drilling rock, water is key.  While I have not seen it, I have heard the
drillers talk of welding the drillbit to the end of the hole  several
hundred to thousands of feet downhole when they lost water circulation.
When that happens the pull out whatver part of the drilling head they can,
send a new bit downhole and drill through the parts stuck in the hole and
keep on trucking.

On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 6:02 PM, Dave Cole  wrote:

> On 5/10/2016 2:56 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday 10 May 2016 11:47:13 Dave Cole wrote:
> >
> >> I've been doing the controls for a manufacturer of large core drill
> >> machines for about 10 years. The machines are made to drill holes in
> >> concrete structures that make up sewer systems.
> >> The machines can drill up to 60" holes using diamond segmented tipped
> >> bits.
> >>
> >> Diamond bits work great for concrete and stone and they do ok when
> >> sawing through the wire reinforcement in the concrete as well (up to
> >> about 1/2" rebar reinforcement).
> >> Water is always used with those bits for maximum life.   However they
> >> don't need a lot of water.  Just enough to wash away the grindings.
> >> With smaller bits (12-24") in diameter, the machines can achieve feed
> >> rates of 4-5 inches per minute even when chewing through wire
> >> reinforcement.   Diamond tipped saw blade "teeth" are really tiny
> >> diamonds in an alloy matrix which rubs against the material to be cut.
> >> Its really more of a grinding process than a cutting process.   A good
> >> diamond tipped concrete core drill can drill through 100+ feet of
> >> concrete before needing to be re-tipped if the core drill is treated
> >> properly.
> >>
> >> I've never heard of diamond bits being used to solely cut cast iron.
> >> I would think that Carbide or HSS would be preferable.
> > Both would need large amounts of torque I don't have.  My mill spindle is
> > 1 HP, and not enough backgear to pull that off.  So slow, dry, no sparks
> > allowed, has now done the job with a $45 10 continuous edge Dewalt
> > blade.  And it seems to be taking less power to deepen its kerf now than
> > when I started. Piece is now chucked in the lathe's 4 jaw, and I'm
> > trying to make it round, but my backs stand up time has been exceeded
> > for a couple hours.  So I'm fielding email and may even see if I can get
> > some afternoon nap in since I was up, in pain, about 1/2 the night last
> > night.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> And you probably don't want to use a water hose to wet down the blade
> even if it makes the blade last longer ..  ;-)
>
> I've had good luck using 7 1/4" circular saw blades designed to cut
> steel.   They have come down in price quite a bit.   I used them to cut
> 1/2" and 3/4" plate steel.
> I used it with a worm drive circular saw.The sparks were pretty
> spectacular.   I think that first blade I bought cost $60 or so probably
> 15 years ago.I think they are about half that now.
> They also work well cutting steel angle and bar if you don't have a
> bandsaw.   Just need to feed the blade into the steel carefully so it
> doesn't grab and wear a face mask and gloves.
>
> Dave
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[Dave Cole]

On 5/10/2016 2:56 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 10 May 2016 11:47:13 Dave Cole wrote:
>
>> I've been doing the controls for a manufacturer of large core drill
>> machines for about 10 years. The machines are made to drill holes in
>> concrete structures that make up sewer systems.
>> The machines can drill up to 60" holes using diamond segmented tipped
>> bits.
>>
>> Diamond bits work great for concrete and stone and they do ok when
>> sawing through the wire reinforcement in the concrete as well (up to
>> about 1/2" rebar reinforcement).
>> Water is always used with those bits for maximum life.   However they
>> don't need a lot of water.  Just enough to wash away the grindings.
>> With smaller bits (12-24") in diameter, the machines can achieve feed
>> rates of 4-5 inches per minute even when chewing through wire
>> reinforcement.   Diamond tipped saw blade "teeth" are really tiny
>> diamonds in an alloy matrix which rubs against the material to be cut.
>> Its really more of a grinding process than a cutting process.   A good
>> diamond tipped concrete core drill can drill through 100+ feet of
>> concrete before needing to be re-tipped if the core drill is treated
>> properly.
>>
>> I've never heard of diamond bits being used to solely cut cast iron.
>> I would think that Carbide or HSS would be preferable.
> Both would need large amounts of torque I don't have.  My mill spindle is
> 1 HP, and not enough backgear to pull that off.  So slow, dry, no sparks
> allowed, has now done the job with a $45 10 continuous edge Dewalt
> blade.  And it seems to be taking less power to deepen its kerf now than
> when I started. Piece is now chucked in the lathe's 4 jaw, and I'm
> trying to make it round, but my backs stand up time has been exceeded
> for a couple hours.  So I'm fielding email and may even see if I can get
> some afternoon nap in since I was up, in pain, about 1/2 the night last
> night.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

And you probably don't want to use a water hose to wet down the blade 
even if it makes the blade last longer ..  ;-)

I've had good luck using 7 1/4" circular saw blades designed to cut 
steel.   They have come down in price quite a bit.   I used them to cut 
1/2" and 3/4" plate steel.
I used it with a worm drive circular saw.The sparks were pretty 
spectacular.   I think that first blade I bought cost $60 or so probably 
15 years ago.I think they are about half that now.
They also work well cutting steel angle and bar if you don't have a 
bandsaw.   Just need to feed the blade into the steel carefully so it 
doesn't grab and wear a face mask and gloves.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 10 May 2016 15:41:57 andy pugh wrote:

> On 10 May 2016 at 14:28, Roland Jollivet  
wrote:
> > I once watched a contractor dry cut rebar with a diamond blade using
> > a cut-off saw. I wanted to tell him you can't do that,
>
> http://www.husqvarna.com/us/construction/products/diamond-blades-for-p
>ower-cutters/di5-ductile-iron-blade/

If I can put yet another oar in this water, it seems to me that Husqvarna 
et all, is far more interested in selling you another blade at quite a 
nice profit margin than in doing a job correctly.

Diamond, spinning at those speeds, will shatter from impact, and if not 
adequately cooled, will get hot enough to ablate/evaporate the diamond, 
both of which will result in the premature destruction of the blades 
ability to cut anything.

Unfortunately, when you are paying the person who needs to cut such by 
the hour, it quickly becomes expedient to buy the fresh blade to replace 
the one destroyed by the pressure to "get the job done".  It becomes a 
C.O.D.B.

By running it wet, you can somewhat alleviate the heat that evaporates 
the diamond.  But note the "somewhat" because the heating is localized, 
confined to the actual contact of that grain of diamond with the 
material being cut, and at the rim speeds of a modern power saw, there 
is 100x more air at the contact interface than water as its carried into 
the slot being cut by the rapidity of the rim, which itself is busily 
throwing that water away from the blade and generally makeing a huge 
mess of the environment up to 15 or 20 feet away.

At nominally 400 revs on a 10" wheel, the impact shock that shatters the 
diamond is reduced by 10x, reducing the cutting degradation rate by an 
estimated 10,000%.  And if not pushing the blade, but just letting the 
diamond carry away the cutting dust its making, the heating will also be 
reduced.  In making those two cuts thru a solid casting about 4.25" in 
diameter, I watched the rim temp with an IR thermometer, and never saw 
it exceed 120F at about 3/8" in from the blades edge.  It appeared the 
actual edge of the blade was running 15F cooler.

Yes, it took a long time to do those 2 cuts.  Had I been physically able 
to attend to the mill full time, about a day a cut.  But that blade can 
do that, at that cut rate, probably another 100 times.

Running that slow and easy, wet or dry has relatively little effect on 
blade longevity because there is not enough heat, or a high enough 
impact shock to damage the diamond.

All of this seduction of the canine could have been alleviated had I been 
able to back the clock up to about 1948 when an uncle of mine landed a 
contract to cut the mounting bosses off an eyeglass lens makers cast 
iron forms so his forms would be usable in a newer machine.  My uncle 
built the first abrasive cutup saw I ever saw, and he didn't have any 
lawyers telling him what he could not do.  In '48, the abrasive wheels 
came in 10 or 11", you wrapped them on a shield of steel about 1/4" 
thick to catch the shrapnel as the recommended rpms for those wheels was 
pretty close to 9500.  So he first used a pulley ratio that gave about 
7500, but it wasn't fast enough to easily start the fire.  So he went to 
town and got the next smaller pulley, which gave it almost exactly 10 
grand.

Bringing the wheel to the casting, it only took 3 or 4 seconds to start 
the fire, and it literally fell thru the 1.25" square block of cast they 
were cutting off in another 2 or 3 seconds.  He blew up one wheel in 
cutting about 200 of them off that way.

But can I buy an abrasive saw that will cut like that today?  Not no, but 
hell no, at least not without putting 5 grand or more into it.  The best 
OTC saw turns a 14" wheel about 4 grand, and it cannot get the fire 
started in a 1/2x2" bar of cold roll without 3 or 4 minutes of leaning 
heavily on the blade just to get the fire started.  The damned lawyers 
and bean counters have caused the wheel speed to be reduced (14" wheels 
are rated for 6500) and the shrapnel catchers are a piece of Prince 
Albert can.  Scary.

Modern tech, by the time the lawyers get thru with it, sucks.

My Dad worked in '52-55, in the tool & die room at a place in Des Moines 
called Solar Aircraft, that was making jet engine parts out of SS and 
titanium.  Somebody shaved the JIT schedule and they ran out of bandsaw 
blades on Thursday, with the next shipment due in Monday next.  While 
those blades did have teeth, the teeth were intended more for carrying 
air into the cut to carry away the molten metal as they actually cut by 
friction heating.  Daddy picked up a steel shipping strap, welded it up 
at the length needed for the bandsaw.  It worked fairly well so he made 
about 40 more with each one lasting about an hour.  That kept production 
going until the new blades arrived.  And he got a nice little present 
for saving those 2 days downtime.

First, we kill ALL the lawyers, still sounds like a heck of a 

Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[andy pugh]

On 10 May 2016 at 14:28, Roland Jollivet  wrote:
> I once watched a contractor dry cut rebar with a diamond blade using a
> cut-off saw. I wanted to tell him you can't do that,


http://www.husqvarna.com/us/construction/products/diamond-blades-for-power-cutters/di5-ductile-iron-blade/



-- 
atp
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designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
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Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 10 May 2016 11:47:13 Dave Cole wrote:

> I've been doing the controls for a manufacturer of large core drill
> machines for about 10 years. The machines are made to drill holes in
> concrete structures that make up sewer systems.
> The machines can drill up to 60" holes using diamond segmented tipped
> bits.
>
> Diamond bits work great for concrete and stone and they do ok when
> sawing through the wire reinforcement in the concrete as well (up to
> about 1/2" rebar reinforcement).
> Water is always used with those bits for maximum life.   However they
> don't need a lot of water.  Just enough to wash away the grindings.
> With smaller bits (12-24") in diameter, the machines can achieve feed
> rates of 4-5 inches per minute even when chewing through wire
> reinforcement.   Diamond tipped saw blade "teeth" are really tiny
> diamonds in an alloy matrix which rubs against the material to be cut.
> Its really more of a grinding process than a cutting process.   A good
> diamond tipped concrete core drill can drill through 100+ feet of
> concrete before needing to be re-tipped if the core drill is treated
> properly.
>
> I've never heard of diamond bits being used to solely cut cast iron.  
> I would think that Carbide or HSS would be preferable.

Both would need large amounts of torque I don't have.  My mill spindle is 
1 HP, and not enough backgear to pull that off.  So slow, dry, no sparks 
allowed, has now done the job with a $45 10 continuous edge Dewalt 
blade.  And it seems to be taking less power to deepen its kerf now than 
when I started. Piece is now chucked in the lathe's 4 jaw, and I'm 
trying to make it round, but my backs stand up time has been exceeded 
for a couple hours.  So I'm fielding email and may even see if I can get 
some afternoon nap in since I was up, in pain, about 1/2 the night last 
night.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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[Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[Roland Jollivet]

I once watched a contractor dry cut rebar with a diamond blade using a
cut-off saw. I wanted to tell him you can't do that, but he was quite
burly, so I left it alone.
He said it was a diamond blade, so I'll never know for sure.

I presume diamond blades work in cutting reinforced concrete because the
concrete is there to temper the feed rate..

Roland


On 10 May 2016 at 17:47, Dave Cole  wrote:

> I've been doing the controls for a manufacturer of large core drill
> machines for about 10 years. The machines are made to drill holes in
> concrete structures that make up sewer systems.
> The machines can drill up to 60" holes using diamond segmented tipped bits.
>
> Diamond bits work great for concrete and stone and they do ok when
> sawing through the wire reinforcement in the concrete as well (up to
> about 1/2" rebar reinforcement).
> Water is always used with those bits for maximum life.   However they
> don't need a lot of water.  Just enough to wash away the grindings.
> With smaller bits (12-24") in diameter, the machines can achieve feed
> rates of 4-5 inches per minute even when chewing through wire
> reinforcement.   Diamond tipped saw blade "teeth" are really tiny
> diamonds in an alloy matrix which rubs against the material to be cut.
> Its really more of a grinding process than a cutting process.   A good
> diamond tipped concrete core drill can drill through 100+ feet of
> concrete before needing to be re-tipped if the core drill is treated
> properly.
>
> I've never heard of diamond bits being used to solely cut cast iron.   I
> would think that Carbide or HSS would be preferable.
>
> Dave
>
> On 5/9/2016 11:13 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 09 May 2016 22:40:45 andy pugh wrote:
> >
> >> I am not an expert in diamond sawing, so take that as a caveat.
> >> However, as far as I know diamond turning of iron-based materials is
> >> almost never done. For iron-based materials the abrasive of choice is
> >> CBN.
> >> The reason for this is, as I understand it, is because carbon is
> >> soluble in iron. In fact the whole marvellous thing that is ferrous
> >> metallurgy is just playing games with the various things that
> >> solutions of carbon dissolved in iron can do when you heat and cool
> >> them.
> >>
> >> Diamond turning of aluminium and copper alloy parts has been standard
> >> for 50 years or more. You won't find many references to
> >> diamond-turning of iron alloys.
> > Thanks Andy.  I should point out that I am not turning it just yet, but
> > sawing off a slice, nominally 1.75" thick, that I can turn, eventually
> > into a block the same height as the compound carriage is, to add some
> > mass to the crossfeed, and to offset the QC holder to the rear and
> > right, thereby putting the typical cutting tool much closer to the
> > center of the Z carriage so the cutting forces are essentially straight
> > down on the center of the Z carriage.  And that I am not achieving a
> > temperature where the carbon (in the diamond dust) can dissolve into the
> > iron.  At no time has the blade or the workpiece been heated to the
> > point I can't rest my hand on either.  Slow, but it seems to be a pretty
> > precise way to do it, so far.  Got a huge pile of grey cast iron dust
> > though.
> >
> > Ignore that thumping sound, thats just me, knocking on wood. ;-)
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[Dave Cole]

I've been doing the controls for a manufacturer of large core drill 
machines for about 10 years. The machines are made to drill holes in 
concrete structures that make up sewer systems.
The machines can drill up to 60" holes using diamond segmented tipped bits.

Diamond bits work great for concrete and stone and they do ok when 
sawing through the wire reinforcement in the concrete as well (up to 
about 1/2" rebar reinforcement).
Water is always used with those bits for maximum life.   However they 
don't need a lot of water.  Just enough to wash away the grindings.  
With smaller bits (12-24") in diameter, the machines can achieve feed 
rates of 4-5 inches per minute even when chewing through wire 
reinforcement.   Diamond tipped saw blade "teeth" are really tiny 
diamonds in an alloy matrix which rubs against the material to be cut.   
Its really more of a grinding process than a cutting process.   A good 
diamond tipped concrete core drill can drill through 100+ feet of 
concrete before needing to be re-tipped if the core drill is treated 
properly.

I've never heard of diamond bits being used to solely cut cast iron.   I 
would think that Carbide or HSS would be preferable.

Dave

On 5/9/2016 11:13 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 09 May 2016 22:40:45 andy pugh wrote:
>
>> I am not an expert in diamond sawing, so take that as a caveat.
>> However, as far as I know diamond turning of iron-based materials is
>> almost never done. For iron-based materials the abrasive of choice is
>> CBN.
>> The reason for this is, as I understand it, is because carbon is
>> soluble in iron. In fact the whole marvellous thing that is ferrous
>> metallurgy is just playing games with the various things that
>> solutions of carbon dissolved in iron can do when you heat and cool
>> them.
>>
>> Diamond turning of aluminium and copper alloy parts has been standard
>> for 50 years or more. You won't find many references to
>> diamond-turning of iron alloys.
> Thanks Andy.  I should point out that I am not turning it just yet, but
> sawing off a slice, nominally 1.75" thick, that I can turn, eventually
> into a block the same height as the compound carriage is, to add some
> mass to the crossfeed, and to offset the QC holder to the rear and
> right, thereby putting the typical cutting tool much closer to the
> center of the Z carriage so the cutting forces are essentially straight
> down on the center of the Z carriage.  And that I am not achieving a
> temperature where the carbon (in the diamond dust) can dissolve into the
> iron.  At no time has the blade or the workpiece been heated to the
> point I can't rest my hand on either.  Slow, but it seems to be a pretty
> precise way to do it, so far.  Got a huge pile of grey cast iron dust
> though.
>
> Ignore that thumping sound, thats just me, knocking on wood. ;-)
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

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Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 09 May 2016 22:41:30 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 05/09/2016 09:08 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > So I guess my assumptions are fairly correct, eg turn it slow enough
> > not to spew sparks, and don't force it.  The latter I am doing but
> > at very low rates of feed, and motions that limit the rims contact
> > with a wide area of the casting.  The only thing I found was a
> > recommendation that when running dry, it be given a cooling rest to
> > keep it from over heating and ablating the diamond away.  The cut it
> > is currently doing is about 5/8ths done, and the block was up to
> > about 110F while the rim of the saw was around 120F when as its
> > late, I paused it and turned off the spindle after it had spun free
> > at the end of the current pass. Tommorrow it will be back to room
> > temp, low 70's F, and I don't think I should add any cooling pauses,
> > given the minimal rise in temps I am seeing with my IR thermometer
> > now, unless you folks think I should.  So sound off if you disagree.
>
> Geez, why are you using a diamond blade on cast iron?  Do
> you need an insanely narrow kerf for some reason?  That's
> about the only reason I can imagine to do this.  Otherwise,
> an HSS slitting saw sounds like a much better way to go.
> (Maybe, if you can get one, an M42 or M57 saw blade would be
> better, as CI is pretty abrasive.)
>
The cut in this case, is a bit north of 4" deep, hence the 10" blade.  
And I am using what I can src locally.  The average turning force is 
less and far more even a load than a single tooth PCD blade at 3x the 
cost of a $45 continuous edge tile blade, and I'd be waiting a week on 
the PCD blade.

> I cut aluminum all the time with HSS slitting saws.  CI is
> not all that much harder to cut, but it will wear the saw
> faster.  I use flood coolant, slowed down to a dribble and
> am still on my first saw blades after quite a lot of
> slitting operations.
>
> I've never heard of running diamond saws dry!  Seems like
> you need coolant or something just to keep the cut from
> filling with swarf and jamming.
>
> Jon
>

I believe I have heard it do that now and then, but not since I added a 
long y stroke across the cut after each x increment.  That, coupled with 
a backtrace .05mm z offset from the fwd y move, seems to have tamed 
that. I haven't seen the motor amps above 3.2 in quite a while.  Cutting 
air at that 400 revs speed is about 2.0 amps.  Low gear of course.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[andy pugh]

On 9 May 2016 at 23:13, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> Thanks Andy.  I should point out that I am not turning it just yet, but
> sawing off a slice,

And on further research, that probably matters, I have found diamond
blades specifically for rebar and girders with a bit of light
googling.

Diamond loss during grinding with many more diamonds to pick up the
baton is a lot less of a problem with a grinding wheel than with a
turning tool.


-- 
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designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
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Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 09 May 2016 22:40:45 andy pugh wrote:

> I am not an expert in diamond sawing, so take that as a caveat.
> However, as far as I know diamond turning of iron-based materials is
> almost never done. For iron-based materials the abrasive of choice is
> CBN.
> The reason for this is, as I understand it, is because carbon is
> soluble in iron. In fact the whole marvellous thing that is ferrous
> metallurgy is just playing games with the various things that
> solutions of carbon dissolved in iron can do when you heat and cool
> them.
>
> Diamond turning of aluminium and copper alloy parts has been standard
> for 50 years or more. You won't find many references to
> diamond-turning of iron alloys.

Thanks Andy.  I should point out that I am not turning it just yet, but 
sawing off a slice, nominally 1.75" thick, that I can turn, eventually 
into a block the same height as the compound carriage is, to add some 
mass to the crossfeed, and to offset the QC holder to the rear and 
right, thereby putting the typical cutting tool much closer to the 
center of the Z carriage so the cutting forces are essentially straight 
down on the center of the Z carriage.  And that I am not achieving a 
temperature where the carbon (in the diamond dust) can dissolve into the 
iron.  At no time has the blade or the workpiece been heated to the 
point I can't rest my hand on either.  Slow, but it seems to be a pretty 
precise way to do it, so far.  Got a huge pile of grey cast iron dust 
though.

Ignore that thumping sound, thats just me, knocking on wood. ;-)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[andy pugh]

On 9 May 2016 at 22:46, Todd  Zuercher
 wrote:
> My only real experience with a diamond saw (and not much at that) is cutting 
> masonry, and there the more water you throw at it the better.

I have cut a great deal of hard sandstone with a dry diamond blade
with a petrol Stihl saw and blade life has been excellent. I think it
depends on the blade design.   I think that many of them are designed
for dry cutting.

There seems to be some good info here.
http://www.nortonconstructionproducts.com/application/diamond-blades.aspx


-- 
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designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[Todd Zuercher]

My only real experience with a diamond saw (and not much at that) is cutting 
masonry, and there the more water you throw at it the better.

- Original Message -
From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 10:08:32 PM
Subject: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

Greetings all;

I just spent the better part of 2 hours, reading just about everything I 
could find on the care and feeding of diamond edged saw blades.

Cutting using them to cut metal seems to be searching for about a 10-33 
Tor vacuum.

I would think this is a well researched, and well recorded subject.  
Nada, zip, other than an occasional very generalized statement can be 
found.

So I guess my assumptions are fairly correct, eg turn it slow enough not 
to spew sparks, and don't force it.  The latter I am doing but at very 
low rates of feed, and motions that limit the rims contact with a wide 
area of the casting.  The only thing I found was a recommendation that 
when running dry, it be given a cooling rest to keep it from over 
heating and ablating the diamond away.  The cut it is currently doing is 
about 5/8ths done, and the block was up to about 110F while the rim of 
the saw was around 120F when as its late, I paused it and turned off the 
spindle after it had spun free at the end of the current pass. Tommorrow 
it will be back to room temp, low 70's F, and I don't think I should add 
any cooling pauses, given the minimal rise in temps I am seeing with my 
IR thermometer now, unless you folks think I should.  So sound off if 
you disagree.

Someone who considers himself a bit of an expert on diamond sawing 
should put his experience in the wikipedia.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[Jon Elson]

On 05/09/2016 09:08 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> So I guess my assumptions are fairly correct, eg turn it slow enough not
> to spew sparks, and don't force it.  The latter I am doing but at very
> low rates of feed, and motions that limit the rims contact with a wide
> area of the casting.  The only thing I found was a recommendation that
> when running dry, it be given a cooling rest to keep it from over
> heating and ablating the diamond away.  The cut it is currently doing is
> about 5/8ths done, and the block was up to about 110F while the rim of
> the saw was around 120F when as its late, I paused it and turned off the
> spindle after it had spun free at the end of the current pass. Tommorrow
> it will be back to room temp, low 70's F, and I don't think I should add
> any cooling pauses, given the minimal rise in temps I am seeing with my
> IR thermometer now, unless you folks think I should.  So sound off if
> you disagree.
>
>
Geez, why are you using a diamond blade on cast iron?  Do 
you need an insanely narrow kerf for some reason?  That's 
about the only reason I can imagine to do this.  Otherwise, 
an HSS slitting saw sounds like a much better way to go.  
(Maybe, if you can get one, an M42 or M57 saw blade would be 
better, as CI is pretty abrasive.)

I cut aluminum all the time with HSS slitting saws.  CI is 
not all that much harder to cut, but it will wear the saw 
faster.  I use flood coolant, slowed down to a dribble and 
am still on my first saw blades after quite a lot of 
slitting operations.

I've never heard of running diamond saws dry!  Seems like 
you need coolant or something just to keep the cut from 
filling with swarf and jamming.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[andy pugh]

I am not an expert in diamond sawing, so take that as a caveat.
However, as far as I know diamond turning of iron-based materials is
almost never done. For iron-based materials the abrasive of choice is
CBN.
The reason for this is, as I understand it, is because carbon is
soluble in iron. In fact the whole marvellous thing that is ferrous
metallurgy is just playing games with the various things that
solutions of carbon dissolved in iron can do when you heat and cool
them.

Diamond turning of aluminium and copper alloy parts has been standard
for 50 years or more. You won't find many references to
diamond-turning of iron alloys.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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[Emc-users] Cutting cast iron with a dry diamond blade

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

I just spent the better part of 2 hours, reading just about everything I 
could find on the care and feeding of diamond edged saw blades.

Cutting using them to cut metal seems to be searching for about a 10-33 
Tor vacuum.

I would think this is a well researched, and well recorded subject.  
Nada, zip, other than an occasional very generalized statement can be 
found.

So I guess my assumptions are fairly correct, eg turn it slow enough not 
to spew sparks, and don't force it.  The latter I am doing but at very 
low rates of feed, and motions that limit the rims contact with a wide 
area of the casting.  The only thing I found was a recommendation that 
when running dry, it be given a cooling rest to keep it from over 
heating and ablating the diamond away.  The cut it is currently doing is 
about 5/8ths done, and the block was up to about 110F while the rim of 
the saw was around 120F when as its late, I paused it and turned off the 
spindle after it had spun free at the end of the current pass. Tommorrow 
it will be back to room temp, low 70's F, and I don't think I should add 
any cooling pauses, given the minimal rise in temps I am seeing with my 
IR thermometer now, unless you folks think I should.  So sound off if 
you disagree.

Someone who considers himself a bit of an expert on diamond sawing 
should put his experience in the wikipedia.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
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