Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I used in CAN network and have seen something about it is available on 
Ethernet. To send messages over SPI or UART should be no problem. Nice thing is 
PDO for real time and SDO for configuration, then i use interpolated position 
mode there is a need to set the gain.

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 22:19:54 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> Nicklas
> i found
> http://www.siegels.us/HomeAutomation/CANOpen_Node_SGS/Tutorial.pdf
> to learn about canopen pdo
> very interesting idea you have
> tomp tjtr33
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[TJoseph Powderly]

Nicklas
i found
http://www.siegels.us/HomeAutomation/CANOpen_Node_SGS/Tutorial.pdf
to learn about canopen pdo
very interesting idea you have
tomp tjtr33


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals --> Ready to go

[TJoseph Powderly]

Hello Nicklas

On 01/06/17 21:32, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> I am better do some real machining and research first. Good news is I am 
> basically ready to go. Yesterday graphics card freeze the screen and Eclipse 
> refused to work but now everything is good.
>
> EDM machine is located in cold garage and temperature is to low this weekend 
> so I postpone test run but next weekend look more promising.
>
> As use my own hardware run on Micro controllers I have been thinking a bit 
> suitable protocol or more exact message format for protocol since it would be 
> good if messages could be sent over several different medias: Ethernet, maybe 
> RS-485, UART, SPI. CANopen might be a choice since it have both PDO and a 
> dictionary for parameters.
do i understand correctly? your idea is to use (maybe) canopen protocol 
but on ethernet or rs-485 etc hardware?
and do i get the name right... PDO is Process Data Object ( exists in 
CanOpen )?
and 'dictionary for parameters' as in python where there is a pair 'key' 
and 'value' ?

i can see an advantage to a standard 'language' over a variety of 
communication hardwares

regards
tomp tjtr33


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals --> Ready to go

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I am better do some real machining and research first. Good news is I am 
basically ready to go. Yesterday graphics card freeze the screen and Eclipse 
refused to work but now everything is good.

EDM machine is located in cold garage and temperature is to low this weekend so 
I postpone test run but next weekend look more promising.

As use my own hardware run on Micro controllers I have been thinking a bit 
suitable protocol or more exact message format for protocol since it would be 
good if messages could be sent over several different medias: Ethernet, maybe 
RS-485, UART, SPI. CANopen might be a choice since it have both PDO and a 
dictionary for parameters.

> 
> 
> On 01/06/17 15:55, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> >> Nicklashello
> >> the time from voltage turn-on until the voltage dropis the ionization time
> >> this can be used as an indication of the gap 'clean'.
> >>
> >> as the cut progresses and more debris is generated,
> >> this time measure will change and  decrease
> >> because the debris will reducethedielectric quality (the anti-conducting
> >> quality).
> > Time for a peck cycle?
> no the ionization time decreases as the conductivity increases ( due to 
> debris in the oil, makes it more conductive )
> >
> >> IF the time is too small,
> >> then the gap is dimensionally too small ( too close )
> >> or too dirty ( needs 'peck' cycle )
> >> or more fluid flow ( sweep up the dirt )
> >> or more offtime or a combination of these
> >>
> >> this ionization monitor cause & effect loop should be faster than 100mS
> >> you cant change flow rates that quickly but you can add offtime to
> >> subsequent pulses
> >> other strategies are in scientific papers
> >>
> >> re: The sparc counter
> >> not sure what the count deal with yet
> >> it sounds like you could get a number related to (sparcs_attempted /
> >> sparcs_actual) = sparc_efficiency
> >> and then see if adjusting edm servo target voltage or offtime would
> >> increae that ratio
> > Yes "ionizations attempted"/"sparcs", then to high a peck cycle is needed?
> well, the ionization time is a better indication that peck cycle is needed
> and
> ionizations attempted / sparcs  ( a low percentage ) can be used to 
> indicate
>offtime needs to be increased
> and/or
>gap distance needs to be increased
> 
> if changing offtime or gap distance has no appreciable effect, its 
> usually best to return to previous values
> no effect indicates the system is tuned well enough already
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >> adaptive control in edm is a great idea
> >> BUT
> >> make sure the adaptive control can be turned off!
> >> many times in AGie and Elox and Mitsubishi cutting, we found that
> >> turning the autopilots off was neccesary
> >> ( let ME drive the damn thing!)
> > I wait with adaptive control until I figured out how it works but to 
> > present some kind of average seems like a good idea.
> >
> > There is:
> >Number of ionizations.
> >Number of sparc.
> >Some theorethical numbers.
> >It might also be possible to measure some times like time to ionization 
> > or other if this provide some useful information.
> i thought you were measuring time to ionize already, so i am not clear 
> on what the 'number of ionizations' vs 'number of sparcs' means
> one ionization to me is   [ a rise of voltage towards Uopen, then a drop 
> towards Udischarge ]
> i think you must have a different event for one count, like just the rise
> a rise ( without a fall ) will occur when tool is too far away from work 
> to sparc
> 
> yes, get some experience before tackling adaptive control system
> watch a lot of sparcs! they are quite interesting visually, on voltage 
> scope, on current scope, on frequency domain scope
> 
> just for interest
> the auto jump is very important for thin deep slots ( called 'ribs' )
> and heres a paper with a pulse discriminator, and auto jump circuit 
> description ( no schematic or CPLD code :-(((
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251896377_Control_Strategy_for_High_Speed_Electrical_Discharge_Machining_Die-sinking_EDM_Equipped_with_Linear_Motors
> 
> HTH
> tomp tjtr33
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[TJoseph Powderly]

On 01/06/17 15:55, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
>> Nicklashello
>> the time from voltage turn-on until the voltage dropis the ionization time
>> this can be used as an indication of the gap 'clean'.
>>
>> as the cut progresses and more debris is generated,
>> this time measure will change and  decrease
>> because the debris will reducethedielectric quality (the anti-conducting
>> quality).
> Time for a peck cycle?
no the ionization time decreases as the conductivity increases ( due to 
debris in the oil, makes it more conductive )
>
>> IF the time is too small,
>> then the gap is dimensionally too small ( too close )
>> or too dirty ( needs 'peck' cycle )
>> or more fluid flow ( sweep up the dirt )
>> or more offtime or a combination of these
>>
>> this ionization monitor cause & effect loop should be faster than 100mS
>> you cant change flow rates that quickly but you can add offtime to
>> subsequent pulses
>> other strategies are in scientific papers
>>
>> re: The sparc counter
>> not sure what the count deal with yet
>> it sounds like you could get a number related to (sparcs_attempted /
>> sparcs_actual) = sparc_efficiency
>> and then see if adjusting edm servo target voltage or offtime would
>> increae that ratio
> Yes "ionizations attempted"/"sparcs", then to high a peck cycle is needed?
well, the ionization time is a better indication that peck cycle is needed
and
ionizations attempted / sparcs  ( a low percentage ) can be used to 
indicate
   offtime needs to be increased
and/or
   gap distance needs to be increased

if changing offtime or gap distance has no appreciable effect, its 
usually best to return to previous values
no effect indicates the system is tuned well enough already



>
>> adaptive control in edm is a great idea
>> BUT
>> make sure the adaptive control can be turned off!
>> many times in AGie and Elox and Mitsubishi cutting, we found that
>> turning the autopilots off was neccesary
>> ( let ME drive the damn thing!)
> I wait with adaptive control until I figured out how it works but to present 
> some kind of average seems like a good idea.
>
> There is:
>Number of ionizations.
>Number of sparc.
>Some theorethical numbers.
>It might also be possible to measure some times like time to ionization or 
> other if this provide some useful information.
i thought you were measuring time to ionize already, so i am not clear 
on what the 'number of ionizations' vs 'number of sparcs' means
one ionization to me is   [ a rise of voltage towards Uopen, then a drop 
towards Udischarge ]
i think you must have a different event for one count, like just the rise
a rise ( without a fall ) will occur when tool is too far away from work 
to sparc

yes, get some experience before tackling adaptive control system
watch a lot of sparcs! they are quite interesting visually, on voltage 
scope, on current scope, on frequency domain scope

just for interest
the auto jump is very important for thin deep slots ( called 'ribs' )
and heres a paper with a pulse discriminator, and auto jump circuit 
description ( no schematic or CPLD code :-(((
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251896377_Control_Strategy_for_High_Speed_Electrical_Discharge_Machining_Die-sinking_EDM_Equipped_with_Linear_Motors

HTH
tomp tjtr33

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> Nicklashello
> the time from voltage turn-on until the voltage dropis the ionization time
> this can be used as an indication of the gap 'clean'.
> 
> as the cut progresses and more debris is generated,
> this time measure will change and  decrease
> because the debris will reducethedielectric quality (the anti-conducting 
> quality).

Time for a peck cycle?

> IF the time is too small,
> then the gap is dimensionally too small ( too close )
> or too dirty ( needs 'peck' cycle )
> or more fluid flow ( sweep up the dirt )
> or more offtime or a combination of these
> 
> this ionization monitor cause & effect loop should be faster than 100mS
> you cant change flow rates that quickly but you can add offtime to 
> subsequent pulses
> other strategies are in scientific papers
> 
> re: The sparc counter
> not sure what the count deal with yet
> it sounds like you could get a number related to (sparcs_attempted / 
> sparcs_actual) = sparc_efficiency
> and then see if adjusting edm servo target voltage or offtime would 
> increae that ratio

Yes "ionizations attempted"/"sparcs", then to high a peck cycle is needed? 

> adaptive control in edm is a great idea
> BUT
> make sure the adaptive control can be turned off!
> many times in AGie and Elox and Mitsubishi cutting, we found that 
> turning the autopilots off was neccesary
> ( let ME drive the damn thing!)

I wait with adaptive control until I figured out how it works but to present 
some kind of average seems like a good idea.

There is:
  Number of ionizations.
  Number of sparc.
  Some theorethical numbers.
  It might also be possible to measure some times like time to ionization or 
other if this provide some useful information.

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[TJoseph Powderly]

Nicklashello
the time from voltage turn-on until the voltage dropis the ionization time
this can be used as an indication of the gap 'clean'.

the idea is that IF the gap is very clean ,
and constantly clean,
each ignition delay time measured will be uniform
and will be a 'standard' value for comparison.

as the cut progresses and more debris is generated,
this time measure will change and  decrease
because the debris will reducethedielectric quality (the anti-conducting 
quality).
( we taught users that the dirt was like stepping stones for the 
lighting bolt of the spark )

IF the time is too small,
then the gap is dimensionally too small ( too close )
or too dirty ( needs 'peck' cycle )
or more fluid flow ( sweep up the dirt )
or more offtime or a combination of these

this ionization monitor cause & effect loop should be faster than 100mS
you cant change flow rates that quickly but you can add offtime to 
subsequent pulses
other strategies are in scientific papers

re: The sparc counter
not sure what the count deal with yet
it sounds like you could get a number related to (sparcs_attempted / 
sparcs_actual) = sparc_efficiency
and then see if adjusting edm servo target voltage or offtime would 
increae that ratio

adaptive control in edm is a great idea
BUT
make sure the adaptive control can be turned off!
many times in AGie and Elox and Mitsubishi cutting, we found that 
turning the autopilots off was neccesary
( let ME drive the damn thing!)

research often calls these devices  'pulse discriminators' <<<--- google 
that for more

http://reza.hoseinnezhad.com/papers/Kotler_MST_preprint.pdf

there was a good one by Prof Rajurkar at Univ Nebraska but i cant find it
we built one with FORTH NMIS boards, and our Taiwan machines used a tiny 
PEEL and a PIC microcontroller to measure ionization time
of course there were resistor dividers to reduce the 100+Volts and a 
diode bridge to make sure the polarity sampled was correct
then some unity gain OPs then level sensing ladder to sort out digital 
info about Volatge level at what time during the attempted pulse
some was too fast for the PIC so the logic of the PEEL was needed

tomp tjtr33

On 01/06/17 04:41, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> I am thinking about the ionization and sparc counters. These counters might 
> be useful to calculate how well the process work and maybe adjust parameters?
>
> On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:53:55 +0700
> TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
>
>> Hello
>> video of early iteration of edm panel in use
>> https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
>> i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
>> but a working model is better than just thinkin'
>> thanks
>> tomp tjtr33
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I am thinking about the ionization and sparc counters. These counters might be 
useful to calculate how well the process work and maybe adjust parameters?

On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:53:55 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> Hello
> video of early iteration of edm panel in use
> https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
> i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
> but a working model is better than just thinkin'
> thanks
> tomp tjtr33
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals --> Protocol

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Not yet I am still thinking. CANopen is used on CAN but I have also seen 
implementation over Ethernet and guess same packet could be routed to serial or 
SPI.

CANopen protocol is attractive because it have simple PDO for real time data 
and SDO for dictionary with parameters.

What I want is a standard protocol with more or less same packet format on 
different media, simple packets with little overhead and a dictionary for 
parameters.

On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 19:40:29 +
Sarah Armstrong  wrote:

> Nicklas ,
> any changes  needed , i'd like to know
> 
> should we put a repro together , might make life easier
> 
> Sarah
> 
> On 2 January 2017 at 18:34, Nicklas Karlsson 
> wrote:
> 
> > Me is novice on EDM but it seems you know what you are doing. I got
> > digital outputs connected on machine this weekend and will probably be able
> > to test this weekend.
> >
> > I have made my own servo drivers with interpolated position mode, response
> > is fast even though I have not yet perfected control loop. I read thru
> > books right now to get control loop as good as possible.
> >
> > If anyone else want interpolated position mode I could help modify
> > linuxcnc protocol, modification is simple.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:53:55 +0700
> > TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
> >
> > > Hello
> > > video of early iteration of edm panel in use
> > > https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
> > > i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
> > > but a working model is better than just thinkin'
> > > thanks
> > > tomp tjtr33
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
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> > 
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 09:40:39 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> Nicklas, hello
> 
> 
> On 01/03/17 04:17, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > I made local change to the hostmot2 stepper drivers to both send and 
> > receive absolute position encoder style. Behaviour could be changed with 
> > configuration parameter.
> do i think correctly ? the stepper gets position commands, not step & dir ?

Yes originally, but I made a small change to the driver so I could send 
absolute values, this was the simlest driver to modify. I only send like lower 
16 bits so it will be "encoder style".

> > The change is simple but I am still thinking about protocol because with 
> > interpolated position mode there is a need to set parameters. I read 
> > Profibus use same protocol on all media but it may be a little bit to 
> > complex and I do not know about parameters.
> does 'interpolated position mode' mean the position commands are delta? 
> dx dy dz commands

No delta, it is absolute values but only 16 bits so it will be like a 16 bit 
encoder counter.

> > CANopen have a dictionary which may be used for parameters and PDOs for 
> > real time data but I do not know if it is a good idea to use on other 
> > media. Via TCP/IP telnet may actually be a simple method to implement set 
> > parameters or a web server but a standard industrial protocol used with 
> > ordinary configuration tools are probably better.
> >
> new type drivers using 'standard ... protocols.. . with ordinary 
> configuration tools' is of benefit to larger non-edm audience

Yes I know, it will or are also used for other machines. For EDM feedback is 
needed but for other machines path is known beforehand and there could also be 
a small receive FIFO.

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> Nicklas hello
> everybody is a novice in EDM, its just full of surprises ;-)
> 
> 'interpolated position mode' ...doesthis mean position loop in hardware?

No but it could as well be. It is position loop locally inside servo driver. It 
is ran twice each switching period, once for each switching flank.

It is rather simple to add interpolation between received position and average 
receive periods but I have not yet implemented.

To send values from encoder worked great so I figured it should work equally in 
other direction and then there is no limitation in size for position in 
protocol. It is a fast hack and I am right now thinking about a standard 
protocol.

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[TJoseph Powderly]

Nicklas, hello


On 01/03/17 04:17, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> I made local change to the hostmot2 stepper drivers to both send and receive 
> absolute position encoder style. Behaviour could be changed with 
> configuration parameter.
do i think correctly ? the stepper gets position commands, not step & dir ?
> The change is simple but I am still thinking about protocol because with 
> interpolated position mode there is a need to set parameters. I read Profibus 
> use same protocol on all media but it may be a little bit to complex and I do 
> not know about parameters.
does 'interpolated position mode' mean the position commands are delta? 
dx dy dz commands
> CANopen have a dictionary which may be used for parameters and PDOs for real 
> time data but I do not know if it is a good idea to use on other media. Via 
> TCP/IP telnet may actually be a simple method to implement set parameters or 
> a web server but a standard industrial protocol used with ordinary 
> configuration tools are probably better.
>
new type drivers using 'standard ... protocols.. . with ordinary 
configuration tools' is of benefit to larger non-edm audience


thanks
tomp tjtr33

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[TJoseph Powderly]

Nicklas hello
everybody is a novice in EDM, its just full of surprises ;-)

'interpolated position mode' ...doesthis mean position loop in hardware?

regards
Tomp tjtr33

On 01/03/17 01:34, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> Me is novice on EDM but it seems you know what you are doing. I got digital 
> outputs connected on machine this weekend and will probably be able to test 
> this weekend.
>
> I have made my own servo drivers with interpolated position mode, response is 
> fast even though I have not yet perfected control loop. I read thru books 
> right now to get control loop as good as possible.
>
> If anyone else want interpolated position mode I could help modify linuxcnc 
> protocol, modification is simple.
>
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I made local change to the hostmot2 stepper drivers to both send and receive 
absolute position encoder style. Behaviour could be changed with configuration 
parameter.

The change is simple but I am still thinking about protocol because with 
interpolated position mode there is a need to set parameters. I read Profibus 
use same protocol on all media but it may be a little bit to complex and I do 
not know about parameters.

CANopen have a dictionary which may be used for parameters and PDOs for real 
time data but I do not know if it is a good idea to use on other media. Via 
TCP/IP telnet may actually be a simple method to implement set parameters or a 
web server but a standard industrial protocol used with ordinary configuration 
tools are probably better.


On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 19:40:29 +
Sarah Armstrong  wrote:

> Nicklas ,
> any changes  needed , i'd like to know
> 
> should we put a repro together , might make life easier
> 
> Sarah
> 
> On 2 January 2017 at 18:34, Nicklas Karlsson 
> wrote:
> 
> > Me is novice on EDM but it seems you know what you are doing. I got
> > digital outputs connected on machine this weekend and will probably be able
> > to test this weekend.
> >
> > I have made my own servo drivers with interpolated position mode, response
> > is fast even though I have not yet perfected control loop. I read thru
> > books right now to get control loop as good as possible.
> >
> > If anyone else want interpolated position mode I could help modify
> > linuxcnc protocol, modification is simple.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:53:55 +0700
> > TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
> >
> > > Hello
> > > video of early iteration of edm panel in use
> > > https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
> > > i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
> > > but a working model is better than just thinkin'
> > > thanks
> > > tomp tjtr33
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > --
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Sarah Armstrong]

Nicklas ,
any changes  needed , i'd like to know

should we put a repro together , might make life easier

Sarah

On 2 January 2017 at 18:34, Nicklas Karlsson 
wrote:

> Me is novice on EDM but it seems you know what you are doing. I got
> digital outputs connected on machine this weekend and will probably be able
> to test this weekend.
>
> I have made my own servo drivers with interpolated position mode, response
> is fast even though I have not yet perfected control loop. I read thru
> books right now to get control loop as good as possible.
>
> If anyone else want interpolated position mode I could help modify
> linuxcnc protocol, modification is simple.
>
>
> On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:53:55 +0700
> TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
>
> > Hello
> > video of early iteration of edm panel in use
> > https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
> > i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
> > but a working model is better than just thinkin'
> > thanks
> > tomp tjtr33
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> --
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > ___
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> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> 
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Me is novice on EDM but it seems you know what you are doing. I got digital 
outputs connected on machine this weekend and will probably be able to test 
this weekend.

I have made my own servo drivers with interpolated position mode, response is 
fast even though I have not yet perfected control loop. I read thru books right 
now to get control loop as good as possible.

If anyone else want interpolated position mode I could help modify linuxcnc 
protocol, modification is simple.


On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:53:55 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> Hello
> video of early iteration of edm panel in use
> https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
> i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
> but a working model is better than just thinkin'
> thanks
> tomp tjtr33
> 
> 
> 
> --
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> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Sarah Armstrong]

Thanks Thomas , for the video , very interesting and informative too , i
learned some more lol
look forward to getting all this together

Sarah

On 2 January 2017 at 16:53, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> Hello
> video of early iteration of edm panel in use
> https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
> i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
> but a working model is better than just thinkin'
> thanks
> tomp tjtr33
>
>
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>



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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[TJoseph Powderly]

Hello
video of early iteration of edm panel in use
https://videobin.org/+fe8/jab.html
i think an example of reading the db file needs to be done soon
but a working model is better than just thinkin'
thanks
tomp tjtr33



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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Tabs are probably a very good idea, it is easy to switch in between. Even 
though my knowledge about EDM machining is very limited to to select parameter 
from a file or database sounds like a really good idea, I have seen tables with 
parameters in manual.

If there are any problems with the software I will try to help.

I have three cables for digital outputs to solder and need to connect the EDM 
generator again then my machine is ready to test for the first time. I also 
lack dielectricum storage tank and pump but that's a minor problem then I got 
the machine running.



On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 02:01:28 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> planning 3 tabs
> 'tech' you select edm parameters from a flatfile database OR rool your 
> own on/off/current/polarity/ignition voltage
> 'cut' you control live cut   generator on/off, offtime, target voltage, 
> gain for edm servo, peck cutting parms, fill(flood) & flushing parms
> and you monitor AvgVoltage AvgCurrent Stability Arcing ... ooops it 
> 2am, cutting it short
> 'strategy'  orbiting
> 
> tomp tjtr33

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Sarah Armstrong]

good progress , i cant come up with any omissions , at least at this stage



On 29 December 2016 at 19:01, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> planning 3 tabs
> 'tech' you select edm parameters from a flatfile database OR rool your own
> on/off/current/polarity/ignition voltage
> 'cut' you control live cut   generator on/off, offtime, target voltage,
> gain for edm servo, peck cutting parms, fill(flood) & flushing parms
>and you monitor AvgVoltage AvgCurrent Stability Arcing ... ooops it
> 2am, cutting it short
> 'strategy'  orbiting
>
> tomp tjtr33
>
>
> 
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 09:18:12 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> Nicklas
> are you using theses abbreviation meanings?
> .u = umschaltung  or Voltage
> .i = current
> .t = time

Yes, .u=voltage, .i=current, .t=time
> 
> re: edm.u.Sparc , is this a flag meaning the spark generator is active, 
> or what?

edm.u.Sparc is to set at which voltage level sparc extidinguising turn off 
generator, this is done by hardware comparator.

> re: edm.t.On & Off , are these integer microseconds or floats?

I think float SI-units is a good choice.

> re: edm.u.Ionization, is this a flag meaning ionization occured?

No it set at which voltage level ionization is detected and edm.t.on start to 
cunt, maybe this should be skipped? Or a parameter instead?

> re: emd.u.Seat, is this the discharge voltage, is this also the servo 
> target?

edm.u.Seat is the measured discharge voltage.

> re: edm.u.Open, is this the ignition voltage ( usually less that 3 
> amperes, and for example AGie 60L is 100 150 200 270 selectable )?

Yes edm.u.Open is the ignition voltage.

>or the actual cutting supply no-load voltage (neccesarily > discharge 
> voltage and often 60-120volts, 115 in my system)

Is it necessary to set cutting supply voltage?

> re: edm.i  , i think this is current,

Yes it is measured current. But there is also a need to adjust maximum current 
which I forgot.

> when I talked about ipkval it refered to the maximum (peak) current 
> available is a dead short

I think I forgot this one.

>in a normal discharge, the reactance of the spark gap acts sort of 
> like a resistor, the Actual current will be less
>the joules delivered is (ontime-ionizationTime ) * (dischargeVoltage) 
> * (actualCurrent )
> 
> re: edm.ionizationCount .sparcCnt  these are very fast changing data,
>too fast for threads,
>but outside hardware (i used PICs) can report running averages
>these data can be used to evaluate process quality and can lead to 
> adjusting the offtime , flush, cut duration of jumping strategy

Yes they are to fast for threads and counted in EDM power supply. Then sent 
periodically number of counts since last time sent I think is a good choice and 
then they could be averaged inside linuxcnc.

> re: old mcodes, they are just models, they can be changed easily, likely 
> individual codes for individual parameters is better
>the M110 can be moved and can be broken into individual set_on & set_off
>the M112 sets the supplied peak current, and since my interface was 
> binary, had special code for that
>the M199 was a position limit number, a position that constrained the 
> Hal motion
> ( i did not use linuxcnc gcodes tho i operated inside linuxcnc)
> the tool was not allowed to exceed this position.
> It is related to M198 which is a timer.
> Edm process is not complete as soon as the tool arrives to the 
> programmed position,
> as the surface is not completely cut yet.
> So, i wait for the tool to maintain the final position until the gap 
> voltage rises
> THEN wait an additional security time (M198 monitors this)
> THEN the system is ready to proceed to next step.
>This is similar to linuxcnc exactStopMode extreme!
> 
> in general a wedm user interface is different than sink edm
> 
> wedm is a path, like a mill
>   the wedm cuts while along a path
>   wedm uses cutter comp a lot, to change the path from roughing ( far 
> away from the path ) to finishing ( close to the path )
> sink edm is like a cnc punch press
>   the sink edm gets into position then cuts with very small motion in a 
> single location
>   sink edm moves around each location , first achieving th enet shape 
> during rough stage then about the location ( orbiting ) while refining 
> the surface
> 
> so the user interface may be very different
> 
> i will look into the user interface also
> you still have the coffeecup edm for testing?

No, the coffecup EDM have delivered back to child long and broken into pieces 
long time ago but I have the real machine. The goal with the parameters is to 
get something similar as for motion.spindle and hopefully same parameters could 
be used for wire EDM. I think SI-units is a good choice but then they could be 
scaled to internal units before sent to power supply.

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Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[TJoseph Powderly]

Nicklas
are you using theses abbreviation meanings?
.u = umschaltung  or Voltage
.i = current
.t = time

re: edm.u.Sparc , is this a flag meaning the spark generator is active, 
or what?
re: edm.t.On & Off , are these integer microseconds or floats?
re: edm.u.Ionization, is this a flag meaning ionization occured? ( 
threads are not fast enough fpr that, ionization from initialization is 
submicrosecond)
re: emd.u.Seat, is this the discharge voltage, is this also the servo 
target?
re: edm.u.Open, is this the ignition voltage ( usually less that 3 
amperes, and for example AGie 60L is 100 150 200 270 selectable )?
   or the actual cutting supply no-load voltage (neccesarily > discharge 
voltage and often 60-120volts, 115 in my system)

re: edm.i  , i think this is current,
when I talked about ipkval it refered to the maximum (peak) current 
available is a dead short
   in a normal discharge, the reactance of the spark gap acts sort of 
like a resistor, the Actual current will be less
   the joules delivered is (ontime-ionizationTime ) * (dischargeVoltage) 
* (actualCurrent )

re: edm.ionizationCount .sparcCnt  these are very fast changing data,
   too fast for threads,
   but outside hardware (i used PICs) can report running averages
   these data can be used to evaluate process quality and can lead to 
adjusting the offtime , flush, cut duration of jumping strategy

re: old mcodes, they are just models, they can be changed easily, likely 
individual codes for individual parameters is better
   the M110 can be moved and can be broken into individual set_on & set_off
   the M112 sets the supplied peak current, and since my interface was 
binary, had special code for that
   the M199 was a position limit number, a position that constrained the 
Hal motion
( i did not use linuxcnc gcodes tho i operated inside linuxcnc)
the tool was not allowed to exceed this position.
It is related to M198 which is a timer.
Edm process is not complete as soon as the tool arrives to the 
programmed position,
as the surface is not completely cut yet.
So, i wait for the tool to maintain the final position until the gap 
voltage rises
THEN wait an additional security time (M198 monitors this)
THEN the system is ready to proceed to next step.
   This is similar to linuxcnc exactStopMode extreme!

in general a wedm user interface is different than sink edm

wedm is a path, like a mill
  the wedm cuts while along a path
  wedm uses cutter comp a lot, to change the path from roughing ( far 
away from the path ) to finishing ( close to the path )
sink edm is like a cnc punch press
  the sink edm gets into position then cuts with very small motion in a 
single location
  sink edm moves around each location , first achieving th enet shape 
during rough stage then about the location ( orbiting ) while refining 
the surface

so the user interface may be very different

i will look into the user interface also
you still have the coffeecup edm for testing?

regards
tomp tjtr33

On 12/26/16 23:40, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> In the m-codes you sent.
>M110 set onVal and offVal while I use edm.t.off and edm.t.on
>M112 set ipkval while I did not have
>M198 set AtMinTix and AtMaxTix while I do not have
>M199 set AdvLimVal and RetLimVal while I do not have
>
> Output signals:
>edm.t.Off
>edm.t.On
>edm.u.Ionization
>edm.u.Sparc
>
> Input signals:
>edm.u.Open
>edm.u.Seat
>edm.i
>edm.ionizationCnt
>edm.sparcCnt
>
> I think it would be good if it is possible to use more or less standard or at 
> least common *-code for EDM generator. Then I think standard signal names 
> must be defined for the *-code or how do they find the correct 
> signal-/pin-name?
>
>
> Suitable parameters for control of spindle have been figured out a long time 
> ago
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/motion.9.html
>
>
> On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 21:50:36 +0700
> TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
>
>> interesting AGie stuff
>> please look at
>> http://www.gfms.com/content/dam/gfac/proddb/edm/die-sinking/en/agiecharmilles-form-200-ms_en.pdf
>> for a bit more screenshots
>> remember, this is for a proprietary machine, and will be of limited use
>> what is good though, is they actualy asked users to evaluate the user
>> interface before forcing it onto all the users
>> GF is George FIscher, the auto body company, ( and a lot more)
>> they bought up AGie Charmilles Elox and other edm mfctrs over the years
>> (the borg of edm, so they have acquired a LOT of edm knowledge )
>>
>> i was head of AGie sink edm for a while back in the day, sort of by default,
>> no one else knew what the hell those machine were, and they only wanted
>> to play on wedm anyway
>> (eeew its oily and dirty eeeow)
>>
>> regards
>> TomP tjtr33
>> On 12/26/16 19:46, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
 ...
 please tell us more of what you try to control with all those flushing
 controls!
 it seems there is 

Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

In the m-codes you sent.
  M110 set onVal and offVal while I use edm.t.off and edm.t.on
  M112 set ipkval while I did not have
  M198 set AtMinTix and AtMaxTix while I do not have
  M199 set AdvLimVal and RetLimVal while I do not have

Output signals:
  edm.t.Off
  edm.t.On
  edm.u.Ionization
  edm.u.Sparc

Input signals:
  edm.u.Open
  edm.u.Seat
  edm.i
  edm.ionizationCnt
  edm.sparcCnt

I think it would be good if it is possible to use more or less standard or at 
least common *-code for EDM generator. Then I think standard signal names must 
be defined for the *-code or how do they find the correct signal-/pin-name?


Suitable parameters for control of spindle have been figured out a long time ago
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/motion.9.html


On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 21:50:36 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> interesting AGie stuff
> please look at
> http://www.gfms.com/content/dam/gfac/proddb/edm/die-sinking/en/agiecharmilles-form-200-ms_en.pdf
> for a bit more screenshots
> remember, this is for a proprietary machine, and will be of limited use
> what is good though, is they actualy asked users to evaluate the user 
> interface before forcing it onto all the users
> GF is George FIscher, the auto body company, ( and a lot more)
> they bought up AGie Charmilles Elox and other edm mfctrs over the years
> (the borg of edm, so they have acquired a LOT of edm knowledge )
> 
> i was head of AGie sink edm for a while back in the day, sort of by default,
> no one else knew what the hell those machine were, and they only wanted 
> to play on wedm anyway
> (eeew its oily and dirty eeeow)
> 
> regards
> TomP tjtr33
> On 12/26/16 19:46, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> >> ...
> >> please tell us more of what you try to control with all those flushing
> >> controls!
> >> it seems there is magnitude of flush, and type of flush(pressure /
> >> vacuum), and tank fill and dump
> > The flushing controls are coils I found inside the machine and I have not 
> > yet figured out how to use them. I added a button so I could turn them 
> > off/on, there are also a few LEDs with no use. I think lubrification should 
> > be started then machine is enabled?
> >
> > It is possible to adjust tOff/tOn time and a meter for gap voltage, there 
> > are few buttons left over from example. I spent a just a few hours on the 
> > user interface and are right now thinking about how it should look and more 
> > or less standard *-codes for parameters for generator, I also have found 
> > m-codes you sent earlier.
> >
> >
> > I have found Charmilles have a new standard user interface 
> > http://www.mfgnewsweb.com/archives/4/37497/Controls-dec12/New-Standard-User-Interface-for-Sinker-EDM-Machines.aspx
> >
> >
> >> the area 'Settings' could be anything from on & off time to
> >> cuttime/jumpdistance/frequency.
> >> the 'Command' area is understandable
> >> regards, & merry Christmas
> >> tomp tjtr33
> >> On 12/25/16 21:54, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > Happen to know any more or less g-codes for these motions? g-codes
> > for control of flush? g-codes for control of EDM power source?
>  ... i uploaded mcodes before with python commands to change edm
>  generator on/off/current/polarity
> >>> I could remember I god some g-code suitable for EDM and are looking
> >>> for them right now. I have entered g-code for Linuxcnc and Sodick wire
> >>> EDM in a database, there a problem with a few codes. The database
> >>> could be rather useful if filled in for more machines and put on the
> >>> web. I have never machined run a machine and think it could be a good
> >>> start to read thru which codes are available.
> >>> --
> >>> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors Access to Intel
> >>> Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms. With one year of Intel
> >>> Parallel Studio XE. Training and support from Colfax. Order your
> >>> platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> >>> ___ Emc-users mailing list
> >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >> --
> >> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> >> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> >> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> >> Training and support from Colfax.
> >> Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> >> ___
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> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
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> > --
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> > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> 

Re: [Emc-users] EDM machining --> EDM generator signals

[Nicklas Karlsson]

The user interface is a little bit blurred.

As is now I try separate out signals for EDM generator in separate *.hal file 
similar as for spindle.

Output signals:
  edm.t.Off
  edm.t.On
  edm.u.Ionization
  edm.u.Sparc

Input signals:
  edm.u.Open
  edm.u.Seat
  edm.i
  edm.ionizationCnt
  edm.sparcCnt


I guess arithmetic average since last time are useful for the analog values and 
number of counts since last time for the counters. Internally SI-units make 
sense. I am not totally sure what signals are useful and hope you or someone 
else could provide some help here?


On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 21:50:36 +0700
TJoseph Powderly  wrote:

> interesting AGie stuff
> please look at
> http://www.gfms.com/content/dam/gfac/proddb/edm/die-sinking/en/agiecharmilles-form-200-ms_en.pdf
> for a bit more screenshots
> remember, this is for a proprietary machine, and will be of limited use
> what is good though, is they actualy asked users to evaluate the user 
> interface before forcing it onto all the users
> GF is George FIscher, the auto body company, ( and a lot more)
> they bought up AGie Charmilles Elox and other edm mfctrs over the years
> (the borg of edm, so they have acquired a LOT of edm knowledge )
> 
> i was head of AGie sink edm for a while back in the day, sort of by default,
> no one else knew what the hell those machine were, and they only wanted 
> to play on wedm anyway
> (eeew its oily and dirty eeeow)
> 
> regards
> TomP tjtr33
> On 12/26/16 19:46, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> >> ...
> >> please tell us more of what you try to control with all those flushing
> >> controls!
> >> it seems there is magnitude of flush, and type of flush(pressure /
> >> vacuum), and tank fill and dump
> > The flushing controls are coils I found inside the machine and I have not 
> > yet figured out how to use them. I added a button so I could turn them 
> > off/on, there are also a few LEDs with no use. I think lubrification should 
> > be started then machine is enabled?
> >
> > It is possible to adjust tOff/tOn time and a meter for gap voltage, there 
> > are few buttons left over from example. I spent a just a few hours on the 
> > user interface and are right now thinking about how it should look and more 
> > or less standard *-codes for parameters for generator, I also have found 
> > m-codes you sent earlier.
> >
> >
> > I have found Charmilles have a new standard user interface 
> > http://www.mfgnewsweb.com/archives/4/37497/Controls-dec12/New-Standard-User-Interface-for-Sinker-EDM-Machines.aspx
> >
> >
> >> the area 'Settings' could be anything from on & off time to
> >> cuttime/jumpdistance/frequency.
> >> the 'Command' area is understandable
> >> regards, & merry Christmas
> >> tomp tjtr33
> >> On 12/25/16 21:54, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > Happen to know any more or less g-codes for these motions? g-codes
> > for control of flush? g-codes for control of EDM power source?
>  ... i uploaded mcodes before with python commands to change edm
>  generator on/off/current/polarity
> >>> I could remember I god some g-code suitable for EDM and are looking
> >>> for them right now. I have entered g-code for Linuxcnc and Sodick wire
> >>> EDM in a database, there a problem with a few codes. The database
> >>> could be rather useful if filled in for more machines and put on the
> >>> web. I have never machined run a machine and think it could be a good
> >>> start to read thru which codes are available.
> >>> --
> >>> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors Access to Intel
> >>> Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms. With one year of Intel
> >>> Parallel Studio XE. Training and support from Colfax. Order your
> >>> platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> >>> ___ Emc-users mailing list
> >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >> --
> >> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> >> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> >> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> >> Training and support from Colfax.
> >> Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> > Training and support from Colfax.
> > Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> >