Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04 - resurrected!
John Kasunich wrote: > Len Shelton wrote: > >> Anyone know how to find and/or calculate the hsyncstart, hsyncend, htotal, >> vsyncstart, vsyncend, and vtotal values for a given monitor? The manual does >> not have this info. >> >> >>> Len >>> > > Google "modeline". It's been ages since I did that, and I did it with > some webpage in front of me. > > Since your monitor is displaying everything correctly except the openGL > preview, I'm very doubtful that tweaking the modeline will fix it. Or > are you working on a different issue now? > Yup, I agree, if what he is seeing on the real screen is identical to what was in the screen capture, it has to be an opengl problem. An easy test is to run glxgears. If it gives the same garbage, then any Hardy Heron user with the same hardware would likely have the same trouble. Much easier to reproduce these problems if EMC is not required. This looks a LOT like the trash I was getting on Intel 810 on-mobo graphics, the difference might be the unusual screen resolution (I was using 1024 x 768). I tried the Vesa graphics driver without improvement, so I put a spare Nvidia card in the system, but didn't install the Nvidia custom driver, as somebody said it would cause real time latency issues. The graphics performance with the default nv driver is mediocre, but plenty good enough for Axis. Jon -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04 - resurrected!
Len Shelton wrote: > Anyone know how to find and/or calculate the hsyncstart, hsyncend, htotal, > vsyncstart, vsyncend, and vtotal values for a given monitor? The manual does > not have this info. > >> Len Google "modeline". It's been ages since I did that, and I did it with some webpage in front of me. Since your monitor is displaying everything correctly except the openGL preview, I'm very doubtful that tweaking the modeline will fix it. Or are you working on a different issue now? Regards, John Kasunich -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04 - resurrected!
Anyone know how to find and/or calculate the hsyncstart, hsyncend, htotal, vsyncstart, vsyncend, and vtotal values for a given monitor? The manual does not have this info. >Len -Original Message- From: John Kasunich [mailto:jmkasun...@fastmail.fm] Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 4:46 PM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04 - resurrected! Len Shelton wrote: > Okay, just a reminder of my setup on this particular machine... > > 15" widescreen Acer x163w monitor with a 1366 x 768 resolution. EMC and Axis > work fine under Dapper, although the resolution is not right. Hardy gets the > resolution correct, but the preview window in Axis streaks diagonally across > the entire screen. > > I have read and tried every "fix resolution" tutorial I could find and I > can't get Dapper to display correctly. And Hardy is useless because I can't > see the controls behind the preview window smears. > > Here is a screen shot of the 8.04 issues: > http://www.probotix.com/Screenshot.png > > Anyone have any ideas on what is going on in 8.04? I'd prefer to fix this > one than to revert back to Dapper and still have to fix it too. > >> Len > > That looks like an Open-GL issue (since it affects only the Open-GL preview window, not anything else. I have no info to help, but you might try googling with the words ubuntu, 8.04, OpenGL, and the name(s) of your graphics card and/or video driver. Regards, John Kasunich -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04 - resurrected!
Len Shelton wrote: > Okay, just a reminder of my setup on this particular machine... > > 15" widescreen Acer x163w monitor with a 1366 x 768 resolution. EMC and Axis > work fine under Dapper, although the resolution is not right. Hardy gets the > resolution correct, but the preview window in Axis streaks diagonally across > the entire screen. > > I have read and tried every "fix resolution" tutorial I could find and I > can't get Dapper to display correctly. And Hardy is useless because I can't > see the controls behind the preview window smears. > > Here is a screen shot of the 8.04 issues: > http://www.probotix.com/Screenshot.png > > Anyone have any ideas on what is going on in 8.04? I'd prefer to fix this > one than to revert back to Dapper and still have to fix it too. > >> Len > > That looks like an Open-GL issue (since it affects only the Open-GL preview window, not anything else. I have no info to help, but you might try googling with the words ubuntu, 8.04, OpenGL, and the name(s) of your graphics card and/or video driver. Regards, John Kasunich -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04 - resurrected!
Okay, just a reminder of my setup on this particular machine... 15" widescreen Acer x163w monitor with a 1366 x 768 resolution. EMC and Axis work fine under Dapper, although the resolution is not right. Hardy gets the resolution correct, but the preview window in Axis streaks diagonally across the entire screen. I have read and tried every "fix resolution" tutorial I could find and I can't get Dapper to display correctly. And Hardy is useless because I can't see the controls behind the preview window smears. Here is a screen shot of the 8.04 issues: http://www.probotix.com/Screenshot.png Anyone have any ideas on what is going on in 8.04? I'd prefer to fix this one than to revert back to Dapper and still have to fix it too. >Len -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
Chris Radek wrote: > On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 08:05:53PM -0800, Alan Condit wrote: > >> OK, I finally got my machine hooked up to the web for long enough to >> do all the updates and got EMC2-2.2.8 running. Now I am still getting >> the venetian blinds. I tried all the fixes that I could find, but no >> joy in Mudville. My motherboard has an Intel 810 onboard video. I >> have a pci parallel port card in my PCI slot, so adding a separate >> video card is not a desireable option. >> > > Make sure desktop effects are turned off > > If that doesn't work, try the vesa video driver > What menu is this desktop effects selection in? I just installed the Ubuntu 8.04/EMC ISO on a Dell Optiplex GX150 with the i810 chipset, and have the same problem with the lines appearing when an openGL app runs, like glxgears or Axis. The /etc/X11/xorg.conf file is practically empty, now. Have you got a sample syntax for how to specify the vesa driver? Jon -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
Alan Condit writes: > > OK, I finally got my machine hooked up to the web for long enough to > do all the updates and got EMC2-2.2.8 running. Now I am still getting > the venetian blinds. I tried all the fixes that I could find, but no > joy in Mudville. My motherboard has an Intel 810 onboard video. I > have a pci parallel port card in my PCI slot, so adding a separate > video card is not a desireable option. > > Any other suggestions. > > Alan Update: I got the video problem cleared up for now. I rebooted Dapper and copied my working xorg.conf onto a thumb drive. Then I rebooted Hardy and edited the Device, Monitor and Screen stuff from 6.06 xorg.conf into the 8.04 xorg.conf. When I rebooted again everything worked, no venetian blinds. Alan -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
Leslie Newell writes: > > X11 can get a bit cranky if it can't read the monitor correctly. I've > got a monitor that doesn't report it's settings correctly. It took me > ages to convince X11 to work with it. > > Les > My monitor is a Princeton LCD19D and it shows up in displayGTK as "plugnplay" and is configured for 1280x1024 which is what I was using in Dapper. The driver is blank. I assume that means that it is defaulting to some default driver in linux. I tried changing to VESA again and when I reboot the screen appears to be out of horizontal hold (or probably improper scan frequency). Thanks, to the shortcuts from Kirk, I was able to restore the working xorg.conf without having to reboot. But still no joy. Alan -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
On Tue, 2009-01-13 at 19:02 -0600, Len Shelton wrote: > I have never, ever gotten Ubuntu to acknowledge anything in xorg.conf. > > ?? > > >Len The GUI screen resolution app usually doesn't work properly for me. But editing the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file with pico works for me. After saving the updated file, I either logout and back in, or Control + Alt + Backspace to reload the config file. I usually have to try a few times and Google for xorg.conf parameter information. The newer config's seem to have very few parameters, in order to have everything auto config. I often have to go back to an old config file and copy the parameters so that X doesn't set them automatically. Reminds me of Windows trying to be smarter than the person at the keyboard. - Kirk http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
I have never, ever gotten Ubuntu to acknowledge anything in xorg.conf. ?? >Len -Original Message- From: Leslie Newell [mailto:les.new...@fastmail.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:48 PM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04 You don't have to reinstall the OS but you may have to spend some time playing with xorg.conf to get it to work. If you use KDE/Kubuntu rather than Gnome, it is a bit easier because the KDE monitor setup app does most of the work for you. Les Len Shelton wrote: > Further, it has been my experience that if you ever change monitors with > different aspect ratios under Ubuntu, you have to reinstall the OS to get it > to work. This is the one thing I think is really holding Ubuntu back from > being a consumer friendly product. > > info/emc-users > -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
You don't have to reinstall the OS but you may have to spend some time playing with xorg.conf to get it to work. If you use KDE/Kubuntu rather than Gnome, it is a bit easier because the KDE monitor setup app does most of the work for you. Les Len Shelton wrote: > Further, it has been my experience that if you ever change monitors with > different aspect ratios under Ubuntu, you have to reinstall the OS to get it > to work. This is the one thing I think is really holding Ubuntu back from > being a consumer friendly product. > > info/emc-users > -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
X11 can get a bit cranky if it can't read the monitor correctly. I've got a monitor that doesn't report it's settings correctly. It took me ages to convince X11 to work with it. Les Roger wrote: > Probably not the problem here but as an FYI... I had a very difficult time > getting Hardy to recognize my monitor correctly on a Shuttle and spent a lot > of > time and effort trying to fix the problem. It turns out that the problems was > that I had connected the monitor through a KVM (keyboard switch) that > prevented > the monitor from passing it's configuration stuff to the driver. After > directly > wiring the monitor it was easy to identify the supported monitor modes by > looking at the xconfig log which made it very simple to add the missing video > modes. I ended up configuring the monitor as VESA. > > Roger > -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
I have one for you... I picked up a little 15" widescreen Acer x163w monitor with a 1366 x 768 resolution. EMC and Axis work fine under Dapper, although the resolution is not right. Hardy gets the resolution correct, but the preview window in Axis streaks diagonally across the entire screen. I have read and tried every "fix resolution" tutorial I could find and I can't get Dapper to display correctly. And Hardy is useless because I can't see the controls behind the preview window smears. Further, it has been my experience that if you ever change monitors with different aspect ratios under Ubuntu, you have to reinstall the OS to get it to work. This is the one thing I think is really holding Ubuntu back from being a consumer friendly product. >Len -Original Message- From: Roger [mailto:vrsculp...@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:17 PM To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04 Probably not the problem here but as an FYI... I had a very difficult time getting Hardy to recognize my monitor correctly on a Shuttle and spent a lot of time and effort trying to fix the problem. It turns out that the problems was that I had connected the monitor through a KVM (keyboard switch) that prevented the monitor from passing it's configuration stuff to the driver. After directly wiring the monitor it was easy to identify the supported monitor modes by looking at the xconfig log which made it very simple to add the missing video modes. I ended up configuring the monitor as VESA. Roger -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
> After directly > wiring the monitor it was easy to identify the supported monitor modes by > looking at the xconfig log which made it very simple to add the missing > video > modes. I ended up configuring the monitor as VESA. > I have had similar problems. When using a PCI card, I was only getting 480X640 for the monitor, but in the Xconfig, I could see the monitor would support 10 other configs. Not being comfortable in the linux environment yet, could you provide a quick detail on how you did this either here or in the WIKI? It would be a great help. Thanks Brian -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
Probably not the problem here but as an FYI... I had a very difficult time getting Hardy to recognize my monitor correctly on a Shuttle and spent a lot of time and effort trying to fix the problem. It turns out that the problems was that I had connected the monitor through a KVM (keyboard switch) that prevented the monitor from passing it's configuration stuff to the driver. After directly wiring the monitor it was easy to identify the supported monitor modes by looking at the xconfig log which made it very simple to add the missing video modes. I ended up configuring the monitor as VESA. Roger -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
Karl Schmidt wrote: > I know that it is popular to run EMC2 under Ubuntu, but Ubuntu is probably a > poor choice for machine > control. It is intended for cutting edge desktop users while what EMC2 needs > is a more stable OS - > such as Debian etch(stable) with perhaps a custom kernel. > There is no "perhaps" about it - a custom kernel is needed for the realtime extensions. Ubuntu was chosen because many EMC users are new to Linux, and Ubuntu is friendly to such persons. We are in agreement that stable is good, which is why we are using the LTS (long term support) versions of Ubuntu, not the ones that get replaced every six months. Nothing prevents a Linux-savvy user who prefers something else from using the distro of their choice, however building the realtime kernel always involves a fair amount of trial and error. Regards, John Kasunich -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
I know that it is popular to run EMC2 under Ubuntu, but Ubuntu is probably a poor choice for machine control. It is intended for cutting edge desktop users while what EMC2 needs is a more stable OS - such as Debian etch(stable) with perhaps a custom kernel. Karl Schmidt EMail k...@xtronics.com Transtronics, Inc. WEB http://xtronics.com 3209 West 9th Street Ph (785) 841-3089 Lawrence, KS 66049 FAX (785) 841-0434 You either have character, or you are a character. -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
> From: Chris Radek > Date: Monday2009January 12 Monday2009January 129:07:21 PM PST > > On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 08:05:53PM -0800, Alan Condit wrote: >> OK, I finally got my machine hooked up to the web for long enough to >> do all the updates and got EMC2-2.2.8 running. Now I am still getting >> the venetian blinds. I tried all the fixes that I could find, but no >> joy in Mudville. My motherboard has an Intel 810 onboard video. I >> have a pci parallel port card in my PCI slot, so adding a separate >> video card is not a desireable option. > > Make sure desktop effects are turned off > > If that doesn't work, try the vesa video driver > > > From: Lawrence Glaister > Date: Monday2009January 12 Monday2009January 1210:21:40 PM PST > > Hi Alan, > I have been fighting with a similar 810 video problem in an HP > pavillion > 510n box. At the start, I could not get higher than 800x600 > resolution. > I did a bios upgrade and now I can get a full 1400x900 for my LCD. > Unfortunately, the intel 810 onboard video does not like opengl > windows.. I can run axis or glxgears, but get total screen disruption > (crap writing all over the screen). This occurred on both ubuntu 8.04 > and 8.10 installed distributions. This box also needs the SMI fix > to get > latencies in the 30,000ns range (over 120,000ns without the SMI module > installed). All in all, not a box I would use for emc. > Please drop a note on this list if you do have any success with the > 810 > video. > cheers > Lawrence > Chris, I tried the VESA driver and my video went completely crazy. I don't know whether I changed two things at once or whether it just didn't work. I had to reboot in safe mode and copy a backup of xorg.conf to / etc/Xll and reboot again to get my video working at all again. Should it work with the Intel 810 video chip set? Lawrence, Everything worked fine under 6.06 so I really think it is an induced bug in something they (the Ubuntu developers) did between 6.06 and 8.04. My box has had consistent latency around 11000 to 15000 without the SMI module installed. I am running 1280x1024 mode with "configured device". The box has no identifying information on it and I got it used so I have no idea what brand it is. Alan -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
Hi Alan, I have been fighting with a similar 810 video problem in an HP pavillion 510n box. At the start, I could not get higher than 800x600 resolution. I did a bios upgrade and now I can get a full 1400x900 for my LCD. Unfortunately, the intel 810 onboard video does not like opengl windows.. I can run axis or glxgears, but get total screen disruption (crap writing all over the screen). This occurred on both ubuntu 8.04 and 8.10 installed distributions. This box also needs the SMI fix to get latencies in the 30,000ns range (over 120,000ns without the SMI module installed). All in all, not a box I would use for emc. Please drop a note on this list if you do have any success with the 810 video. cheers Lawrence On Mon, 2009-01-12 at 20:05 -0800, Alan Condit wrote: > OK, I finally got my machine hooked up to the web for long enough to > do all the updates and got EMC2-2.2.8 running. Now I am still getting > the venetian blinds. I tried all the fixes that I could find, but no > joy in Mudville. My motherboard has an Intel 810 onboard video. I > have a pci parallel port card in my PCI slot, so adding a separate > video card is not a desireable option. > > Any other suggestions. > > Alan > > > -- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: > SourcForge Community > SourceForge wants to tell your story. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- = Lawrence Glaister VE7IT mailto:ve...@shaw.ca 1462 Madrona Drive Nanoose Bay, B.C.http://members.shaw.ca/swstuff Canada V9P 9C9 http://gspy.sourceforge.net = -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 08:05:53PM -0800, Alan Condit wrote: > OK, I finally got my machine hooked up to the web for long enough to > do all the updates and got EMC2-2.2.8 running. Now I am still getting > the venetian blinds. I tried all the fixes that I could find, but no > joy in Mudville. My motherboard has an Intel 810 onboard video. I > have a pci parallel port card in my PCI slot, so adding a separate > video card is not a desireable option. Make sure desktop effects are turned off If that doesn't work, try the vesa video driver -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] EMC2 and Hardy 8.04
OK, I finally got my machine hooked up to the web for long enough to do all the updates and got EMC2-2.2.8 running. Now I am still getting the venetian blinds. I tried all the fixes that I could find, but no joy in Mudville. My motherboard has an Intel 810 onboard video. I have a pci parallel port card in my PCI slot, so adding a separate video card is not a desireable option. Any other suggestions. Alan -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
