[Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont
Hi Aaron, I've recently been messing about with microstepping drivers trying to get precise rotation and some speed out of a little lathe head. I found that microstepping gave me all sorts of problems and that, at 1/8 steps - the limit of the drive I had, the highest possible speed was much reduced and lost steps were common. Also, set ups in the .ini file became more critical so that I was having to use velocity settings to the second decimal place and that an increase of 0.01 would make a noticeable change in velocity. I decided eventually that microstepping was too risky and so I have settled on 1/2 steps and different pulley ratio.. Your problems are undoubtedly with the values set in MAX_VELOCITY and STEPGEN_MAXVEL in the [AXIS_x] section of the .ini file which are the values that adjust the rapid speeds of each axis. The values in the similar settings in the [TRAJ] section limit the velocity for the whole machine and so should be just a little higher then the highest values in any of the [AXIS_x] sections. The same applies to acceleration values... My set up was in metric with the latest release of EMC2 on Dapper Drake on a 1.7GHz processor PC with 1Gb ram and using a NEMA 23 stepper driving a watchmakers' lathe headstock through toothed belt drive. Best wishes, Ian --- Ian W. Wright Sheffield UK - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont (aaron Moore)
Dan Thanks. Yes I did isolate logic and power cablesit looks much neater but did not seem to make any difference to the results > - Original Message - > From: "Organic Engines" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont (aaron > Moore) > Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 19:58:56 -0400 > > > Aaron, > >If you are using feed override at any percentage, it can sometimes > affect your rapids, it. the rapid speed is also overridden, exceeding > the machine's capabilities. > >Run some handwritten g code tests. > >g0 x10 f1 >g0 x0 f1 >g0 x10 f2 >g0 x0 f2 > >I use inches, so adjust your values. > >And so on, until you get a failure. Try each axis and then pairs. > >I noticed your power supplies are wired in parallel. Does it > explicitly state in the docs that you can do that? > >A useful test would be to split the supply and wire one to the X and > one to the Y. > >I have had lots of weirdo problems from power supplies not giving > enough juice. Everything works fine until you do a multi axis move and > the power supply can't deliver the watts. > >Did you isolate the logic signals from the power wiring? > >Dan > > > > > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Powered by Outblaze - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont (aaron Moore)
Organic Engines wrote: > Aaron, > > One other thought. If your drives are in that plywood box with the > smoked plexiglass cover they could be overheating. > > I had a test rig that was on plywood and it would act weird because it > was overheating. All the problems went away when I installed it in a > metal box with an aluminum plate for the drives to sit on. I also use > heat sink compound when I mount the drives. > > Try a fan with the cover off to start. > > Dan A metal mounting surface also provides a ground plane and can eliminate some electrical noise issues. Regards, John Kasunich - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont (aaron Moore)
Aaron, One other thought. If your drives are in that plywood box with the smoked plexiglass cover they could be overheating. I had a test rig that was on plywood and it would act weird because it was overheating. All the problems went away when I installed it in a metal box with an aluminum plate for the drives to sit on. I also use heat sink compound when I mount the drives. Try a fan with the cover off to start. Dan - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont (aaron Moore)
Aaron, If you are using feed override at any percentage, it can sometimes affect your rapids, it. the rapid speed is also overridden, exceeding the machine's capabilities. Run some handwritten g code tests. g0 x10 f1 g0 x0 f1 g0 x10 f2 g0 x0 f2 I use inches, so adjust your values. And so on, until you get a failure. Try each axis and then pairs. I noticed your power supplies are wired in parallel. Does it explicitly state in the docs that you can do that? A useful test would be to split the supply and wire one to the X and one to the Y. I have had lots of weirdo problems from power supplies not giving enough juice. Everything works fine until you do a multi axis move and the power supply can't deliver the watts. Did you isolate the logic signals from the power wiring? Dan - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont
Aaron, Micro stepping works better at slow speeds. In my Gecko 203v drive it morphs from 10 microsteps to none as the rpm goes up. I'm guessing your just trying to go to fast for your hardware. If a G0 move goes bad then your max velocity is set to high. If you lose steps or stall the motor on direction reversal then your acceleration is too high for your hardware setup. Slow it down until you find the limits for G0 moves. Your not cutting at max speed I assume so your down within the range of your hardware at your speed you set for cutting. John On 24 May 2008 at 21:00, aaron Moore wrote: > Hi agian > If anyone can bear to listen to my woes > I am still having problems configuring my stepper machine. As someone > suggested, the problem seems to be with the rapid moves. I have got > one good result with Velocity @ 20mm acceleration @ 10 with micro > stepping set @ 16 with the motors wired in parallel, but I have not > been able to repeat this success. Acceleration set above 20 and the > motors sound terrible and miss stepps. Below 20 the rapid moves do > not go to the right place. > > Can anyone explain why the machine moves correctly on cutting moves > and rapid moves go wonky? Thanks Aaron > > -- > Powered by Outblaze > > -- > --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. > Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ > ___ Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont
I'm not really experienced with steppers at all, most all of my knowledge is just from reading, and not actual experience, but if I were faced with your problem, I would try reducing the microstepping in your drives and see how well that works for you. to me it seems like yo might be at the limit of some of your hardware on the step rate, and if you reduce the microstepping you'll effectively reduce the number of steps to move the same distance. Have you tried increasing the duration of the step pulses and the direction hold etc? I saw it suggested earlier but dont recall if you tried it or not. One last thing that just came to mind is to see what voltage your parallel port is outputting, or if you have a breakout board what it's opto's are outputting. I know that logic voltage can affect rise time of a signal, not sure if this would have anything to do with your attainable step rates. Hope to see your machine cutting accurately and repeatably soon, i'm glad to help what little i might be able to. Jim On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 5:00 PM, aaron Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi agian > If anyone can bear to listen to my woes > I am still having problems configuring my stepper machine. As someone > suggested, the problem seems to be with the rapid moves. I > have got one good result with Velocity @ 20mm acceleration @ 10 with micro > stepping set @ 16 with the motors wired in parallel, > but I have not been able to repeat this success. Acceleration set above 20 > and the motors sound terrible and miss stepps. Below > 20 the rapid moves do not go to the right place. > > Can anyone explain why the machine moves correctly on cutting moves and > rapid moves go wonky? > Thanks > Aaron > > -- > Powered by Outblaze > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont
Hi agian If anyone can bear to listen to my woes I am still having problems configuring my stepper machine. As someone suggested, the problem seems to be with the rapid moves. I have got one good result with Velocity @ 20mm acceleration @ 10 with micro stepping set @ 16 with the motors wired in parallel, but I have not been able to repeat this success. Acceleration set above 20 and the motors sound terrible and miss stepps. Below 20 the rapid moves do not go to the right place. Can anyone explain why the machine moves correctly on cutting moves and rapid moves go wonky? Thanks Aaron -- Powered by Outblaze - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
Hi Aaron, In your control box, your step and direction have to be kept well away from all your drive power and motor cables. Ghost step and direction signals can be INDUCED in your step and direction lines if the motor or drive power cables run parallel to them. I would try to run logic signals on one side and power on the other. logic and power lines should only cross at right angles. Dan - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 05:15 +, aaron Moore wrote: > Actually am having similar problems with mach but not as pronounced > Aaron > > - Original Message - > > From: "John Thornton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont. > > Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 17:38:54 -0600 > > > > > > They came out fine. I see your using a center pull on the Y, novel > > idea. Keep in your > > mind that the Y motor sees a substantial load compared to the X as > > it it carrying the > > weight and drag of both. > > > > Do you know the timing settings you used in Mach? > > > > John It's a nice looking machine, nice size. I like the wheels, but is there a way to level it? I have no experience with this type of machine, but the distance between the fore and aft bearing blocks on the right and left carriages looks to be about a foot. I would like to see that be allot longer or go to a belt or rack and pinion that drives and synchronizes both sides. I'd be tempted to disconnect the lead screw nut, get underneath the table and move the gantry by hand at the planned speeds and accelerations to get a feel for the force it would take and check for binding. -- Kirk Wallace (California, USA http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ Hardinge HNC/EMC CNC lathe, Bridgeport mill conversion, doing XY now, Zubal lathe conversion pending Craftsman AA 109 restoration Shizuoka ST-N/EMC CNC) - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
Actually am having similar problems with mach but not as pronounced Aaron > - Original Message - > From: "John Thornton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont. > Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 17:38:54 -0600 > > > They came out fine. I see your using a center pull on the Y, novel > idea. Keep in your > mind that the Y motor sees a substantial load compared to the X as > it it carrying the > weight and drag of both. > > Do you know the timing settings you used in Mach? > > John > > On 21 May 2008 at 21:43, aaron Moore wrote: > > > Thanks for you interest everyone. I have tried to post images > > here http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm226/Skinnybottom/ > > Cheers Aaron > > > > -- Powered by Outblaze > > > > -- > > --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. > > Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ > > ___ Emc-users mailing list > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > > > > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Powered by Outblaze - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
John Kasunich wrote: > > It sounds like you are losing position during rapid moves only. The > move between letters is probably a G0 rapid, which goes as fast as EMC > thinks the machine can go, while the moves within the letters are G1 > lines or G2/G3 arcs, both at some specified feedrate. > A quick test is to use a text editor to change all ocurrences G0 or G00 to G01, and re-run the test. If the results are different, this strongly confirms John's thinking above. Jon - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
Kenneth Lerman wrote: > I really think we need some pictures and/or details. > > Instead of using letters for a test case, could you try using short > lines? First plot a set of parallel lines about 5 cm long and 2 cm > apart, parallel to the X axis and centered on the Y axis. Then do the > same thing parallel to the Y axis and centered on the X axis. Another really useful test is to make a circle out of small linear segments. If there is some error happening on axis reversal, it will show up at the points where the movement reverses. Many step/direction drives have restrictions on when the direction signal can change relative to the last (or next) step pulse. If the required polarity of the step pulse gets reversed, it can make the cnc computer violate that requirement, and lose a step every reversal. Jon - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
They came out fine. I see your using a center pull on the Y, novel idea. Keep in your mind that the Y motor sees a substantial load compared to the X as it it carrying the weight and drag of both. Do you know the timing settings you used in Mach? John On 21 May 2008 at 21:43, aaron Moore wrote: > Thanks for you interest everyone. > I have tried to post images here > http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm226/Skinnybottom/ Cheers Aaron > > -- > Powered by Outblaze > > -- > --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. > Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ > ___ Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
Wow. You do nice work. One issue I can imagine with the y axis is that cutting forces will tend to twist the entire Y slide around the leadscrew. The second is that The "ways" look like linear slides with ball bearing carriages. These are particularly sensitive to dust. I wonder if one of those on y is dragging a bit. HTH Rayh On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 21:43 +, aaron Moore wrote: > Thanks for you interest everyone. > I have tried to post images here > http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm226/Skinnybottom/ > Cheers > Aaron > - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
Hi Aaron, Flickr, Photobucket Myspace. Heh. Dan - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
Thanks for you interest everyone. I have tried to post images here http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm226/Skinnybottom/ Cheers Aaron -- Powered by Outblaze - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
aaron Moore wrote: > I think I would like to clear a few miss understandings here. I am > not an engineer and will never be one. I am a furniture maker/designer > with a keen interest in digital technologies and linux. I have built > a 1.5m x 1.5m gantry style router table with high spec rails, carriage > and bearings. It has been two years in the planning and taken 2-3 > months to build in my spare time. I bought a CNC Kit from an online > company in UK (who have not been able to sort my problem out) consisting > of 3 x MSD542 micro controllers, 3 X FL86STH High torque Nema 34 Stepper > motors and 2 X L6-PF11-001 (PS407) power supply units. The motors are > connected in parallel with micro stepping set to 16 and the power at 4.2 > amps. It has cost me well over £1000 and I would like to get it to work > with a reasonable amount of accuracy. Now we're getting somewhere. Thanks for the information. > I have tried using many settings of speed and acceleration but I always > get a the same result. When engraving a line text the individual letters > look okay but they are always misplaced along the y axis by between 5mm > and 30mm, and always in the same direction. It sounds like you are losing position during rapid moves only. The move between letters is probably a G0 rapid, which goes as fast as EMC thinks the machine can go, while the moves within the letters are G1 lines or G2/G3 arcs, both at some specified feedrate. If you were having this problem only when speed and/or accel limits are set high, then I would think you were simply asking the motors for more than they could do. Since you have tried "many" settings (could you give us an idea of the lowest and highest you have tried?) that is less likely to be the problem. Specifically, if you set the limits _very_ low, and still have the problem, it probably isn't your limits. > My question today is could > this be because I have not used shielded cable to wire the powersupply > and drivers together. If this could be the problem what kind of cable > should I use. Or is there something else I should look into Nothing is impossible, but I think that is quite unlikely. As the first step toward troubleshooting this I would suggest "simplify, simplify, simplify". If the Y axis is the problem, run only the Y axis. Running a complex g-code program makes it harder to understand what is going on (engraving text is complex). So write a very simple program that simply moves the axis back and forth some moderate distance 100 times, while not cutting. Something like this: F100(100mm/minute) G1 Y0 (starting point) M0 (pause - set a ruler under the tip of the tool) G1 Y50 (move 25mm = about 1 inch) G1 Y0 (back to start) G1 Y50 (repeat till bored) . . . G1 Y0 (back to start) When the program ends, is it parked at the same spot over the ruler, or has it moved? If it works using F100, increase the feed rate and see what happens. If not, lower the feed rate. If it works for a variety of F words, then change the G1 to G0 (rapid). Let us know the results. A test like this lets you focus on one thing at a time. As John Thronton has mentioned - if you are losing steps for any reason, everything else will be wrong. You said a few messages back that it works with Mach. What kind of speed are you getting with Mach? 100mm/min? 500? 1000? 5000? When using Mach, how long does it take to get to max speed? A couple of seconds? A noticeable fraction of a second? Or so fast you can barely hear it accelerate? That will give us an idea of what the mechanical limits of the machine are. If you are getting good results with Mach at a wide range of speeds, and bad results with EMC over the same wide range, it is unlikely that the problem is mechanical. Are you using the same PC for both Mach and EMC? Some parallel ports have marginal voltage levels - if the EMC PC has one of those, you could be losing pulses for that reason. If it is the same PC and same parallel port for both programs, you can pretty much rule that out. If it is indeed a timing thing (which seems likely so far), the next step would be to look at your configuration files. Can you post your .ini and .hal files at http://pastebin.ca/, and then post the URL here? Regards, John Kasunich - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
I really think we need some pictures and/or details. Instead of using letters for a test case, could you try using short lines? First plot a set of parallel lines about 5 cm long and 2 cm apart, parallel to the X axis and centered on the Y axis. Then do the same thing parallel to the Y axis and centered on the X axis. Ken aaron Moore wrote: > I think I would like to clear a few miss understandings here. I am not an > engineer and will never be one. I am a furniture maker/designer with a keen > interest in > digital technologies and linux. I have built a 1.5m x 1.5m gantry style > router table with high spec rails, carriages and bearings. It has been two > years in the > planning and taken 2-3 months to build in my spare time. I bought a CNC Kit > from an online company in UK (who have not been able to sort my problem out) > consisting > of 3 x MSD542 micro controllers, 3 X FL86STH High torque Nema 34 Stepper > motors and 2 X L6-PF11-001 (PS407) power supply units. The motors are > connected in > parallel with micro stepping set to 16 and the power at 4.2 amps. It has cost > me well over £1000 and I would like to get it to work with a reasonable > amount of > accuracy. > > I have tried using many settings of speed and acceleration but I always get a > the same result. When engraving a line text the individual letters look okay > but they > are always misplaced along the y axis by between 5mm and 30mm, and always in > the same direction. My question today is could this be because I have not > used shielded > cable to wire the powersupply and drivers together. If this could be the > problem what kind of cable should I use. Or is there something else I should > look into > > If any one can offer some advise I would be very grateful > > Cheers > Aaron > > > -- Kenneth Lerman Mark Kenny Products Company, LLC 55 Main Street Newtown, CT 06470 888-ISO-SEVO 203-426-7166 - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
When I built my stepper powered plasma cutter I did some basic tests to see if I was loosing steps. I mounted a dial indicator and jogged to a known point on the dial then did some G0 moves out and about then back to the known point. If I didn't return to the exact spot or as good as the backlash then I know I lost steps. If I returned to the exact spot then I knew I didn't loose any steps. I ran this test over and over increasing my speeds and acceleration until I found the breaking point. Then I backed way off... To compound things your process has side loads induced by the cutting bit that might overpower your steppers and cause you to loose steps. Things like dull cutters will increase the loads a lot. As a furniture maker you know how wood eats steel and carbide for lunch... Have you done a basic test for lost steps without a load and then a test for lost steps with a load? If your loosing steps increase the step and direction to some number that you are certain will work like 20,000 ns. Decrease accl and speed to some real low number and repeat the tests. It will never be accurate if you are loosing steps. First you must find out if it is in the electronics or your mechanics. Please post some pictures of your machine on photobucket or similar. John On 21 May 2008 at 19:53, aaron Moore wrote: > I think I would like to clear a few miss understandings here. I am > not an engineer and will never be one. I am a furniture > maker/designer with a keen interest in digital technologies and linux. > I have built a 1.5m x 1.5m gantry style router table with high spec > rails, carriages and bearings. It has been two years in the planning > and taken 2-3 months to build in my spare time. I bought a CNC Kit > from an online company in UK (who have not been able to sort my > problem out) consisting of 3 x MSD542 micro controllers, 3 X FL86STH > High torque Nema 34 Stepper motors and 2 X L6-PF11-001 (PS407) power > supply units. The motors are connected in parallel with micro > stepping set to 16 and the power at 4.2 amps. It has cost me well over > £1000 and I would like to get it to work with a reasonable amount of > accuracy. > > I have tried using many settings of speed and acceleration but I > always get a the same result. When engraving a line text the > individual letters look okay but they are always misplaced along the y > axis by between 5mm and 30mm, and always in the same direction. My > question today is could this be because I have not used shielded cable > to wire the powersupply and drivers together. If this could be the > problem what kind of cable should I use. Or is there something else I > should look into > > If any one can offer some advise I would be very grateful > > Cheers > Aaron > > > > -- > Powered by Outblaze > > -- > --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. > Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ > ___ Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont
I am almost certain the miss alignment is not due to the gantry skewing, mainly because it is in a different axis. If it helps the feet of the gantry are 450mm long with fancy carriages at each end. Thanks Aaron > - Original Message - > From: "Kenneth Lerman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont > Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 16:56:59 -0400 > > It appears from previous posts, that the gantry is about 1.5 meters long > and rides on rails. What is the support/bearing mechanism for the gantry > to ride on the rails? In particular, if there are two or more supports > for each side of the gantry, how far apart are the furthest supports on > each side? > > One of the problems with a gantry style machine is that unless you are > careful, the gantry will skew with respect to the other axis. Skewing > can cause uneven motion and/or distorted motion. There are a variety of > ways to prevent that. > > For example, if the bearing supports for the gantry are as far apart as > the width of the gantry, the forces causing the gantry to skew are > resisted. > > Another technique is to use a motor on each side of the gantry so that > the two sides are driven in tandem. > > A third technique is to use a rack and pinion drive with a rack and > pinion on each side and a shaft connecting the two pinions. Then a > single motor can drive both sides at once. > > There are engineering solutions to these engineering problems. A good > reference is some of Slocum's books/papers. You can google for them -- I > don't have a handy reference. > > Ken > > > aaron Moore wrote: > > One stepper per axis > > Gantry runs on X axis rails and weighs about 90kg - 100kg > > Y axis weighs about 20 -30 kg > > And the spindle and mount 10-20kg > > > > All axis run directly from trapezoidal screws 16mm dia, 4mm pitch > > with brass nuts. > > At present it is set for 16 microsteps. > > Not sure if this answers the last question > > > > The motors are actually FL86STH156-4208 > > Voltage: 5.25V > > Current (phase): 4.2A Resistance (Phase): 1.25Ohm > > Inductance (Phase): 8mH > > Holding Torque: 11.96Nm > > Length: 156mm > > > > Thanks > > > > Aaron > > > > > >> - Original Message - > >> From: "Dave Engvall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" > >> Subject: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont > >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 13:26:15 -0700 > >> > >> > >> Aaron, > >> > >> Other responders have indicated they needed more infomation. > >> If you can fill in the blanks and confirm or correct assumptions > >> then someone has a real chance of providing > >> concrete help. It won't be me as I'm a servo person. Sorry. > >> > >> OK, lets gather some more information here: > >> > >> Stated or implied. 1.5m x 1.5 m gantry. One stepper motor per axis. > >> I assume the gantry is the X axis and the Y which lags is mounted on the X. > >> How much weight are you driving per axis? > >> How do you drive the axes; eg. gears, timing belts, etc and what > >> are the ratios? > >> Another way to put this is one step moves you how far? > >> Step rate under normal conditions. > >> > >> > >> > >> This info is for the stepper experts. :-) > >> Copied off a vendor site. > >> > >> Stepper motor: > >> > >> The FL60STH86-3008BF is a High Torque three stack Nema 23, 1.8 > >> degree hybrid stepper motor with a holding torque of 3Nm (425 > >> Oz-in) > >> > >> Driver: > >> > >> Supply voltage up to +50VDC, current output > >> up to 4.2A peak > >> Optically isolated input signals, pulse > >> frequency up to 400 KHz > >> Automatic idle-current reduction > >> 3-state current control for less motor heating > >> 15 selectable resolutions in decimal and > >> binary > >> Suitable for 4,6,8 lead motors > >> Stepping on upward or downward pulse edge > >> (selectable) > >> DIP switch current settingvalue > >> > >> > >> 4.1 Connector P1 configuration > >> SignalFunctions > >> PUL+(+5V) > >> PUL- (PUL) > >> Pulse signal: in single pulse(pulse/direction) mode, this input > >> re
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont
Kenneth Lerman wrote: > > One of the problems with a gantry style machine is that unless you are > careful, the gantry will skew with respect to the other axis. Skewing > can cause uneven motion and/or distorted motion. There are a variety of > ways to prevent that. > Ken brings up a good point, but I don't think it applies here. Just to be sure - the gantry is the X axis, and the problem is on Y, right? A gantry axis that gets a little skewed and binds could certainly lead to lost steps, but only on that axis. Regards, John Kasunich - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont
It appears from previous posts, that the gantry is about 1.5 meters long and rides on rails. What is the support/bearing mechanism for the gantry to ride on the rails? In particular, if there are two or more supports for each side of the gantry, how far apart are the furthest supports on each side? One of the problems with a gantry style machine is that unless you are careful, the gantry will skew with respect to the other axis. Skewing can cause uneven motion and/or distorted motion. There are a variety of ways to prevent that. For example, if the bearing supports for the gantry are as far apart as the width of the gantry, the forces causing the gantry to skew are resisted. Another technique is to use a motor on each side of the gantry so that the two sides are driven in tandem. A third technique is to use a rack and pinion drive with a rack and pinion on each side and a shaft connecting the two pinions. Then a single motor can drive both sides at once. There are engineering solutions to these engineering problems. A good reference is some of Slocum's books/papers. You can google for them -- I don't have a handy reference. Ken aaron Moore wrote: > One stepper per axis > Gantry runs on X axis rails and weighs about 90kg - 100kg > Y axis weighs about 20 -30 kg > And the spindle and mount 10-20kg > > All axis run directly from trapezoidal screws 16mm dia, 4mm pitch with brass > nuts. > At present it is set for 16 microsteps. > Not sure if this answers the last question > > The motors are actually FL86STH156-4208 > Voltage: 5.25V > Current (phase): 4.2A > Resistance (Phase): 1.25Ohm > Inductance (Phase): 8mH > Holding Torque: 11.96Nm > Length: 156mm > > Thanks > > Aaron > > >> - Original Message - >> From: "Dave Engvall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" >> Subject: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 13:26:15 -0700 >> >> >> Aaron, >> >> Other responders have indicated they needed more infomation. >> If you can fill in the blanks and confirm or correct assumptions >> then someone has a real chance of providing >> concrete help. It won't be me as I'm a servo person. Sorry. >> >> OK, lets gather some more information here: >> >> Stated or implied. 1.5m x 1.5 m gantry. One stepper motor per axis. >> I assume the gantry is the X axis and the Y which lags is mounted on the X. >> How much weight are you driving per axis? >> How do you drive the axes; eg. gears, timing belts, etc and what >> are the ratios? >> Another way to put this is one step moves you how far? >> Step rate under normal conditions. >> >> >> >> This info is for the stepper experts. :-) >> Copied off a vendor site. >> >> Stepper motor: >> >> The FL60STH86-3008BF is a High Torque three stack Nema 23, 1.8 >> degree hybrid stepper motor with a holding torque of 3Nm (425 >> Oz-in) >> >> Driver: >> >> Supply voltage up to +50VDC, current output >> up to 4.2A peak >> Optically isolated input signals, pulse >> frequency up to 400 KHz >> Automatic idle-current reduction >> 3-state current control for less motor heating >> 15 selectable resolutions in decimal and >> binary >> Suitable for 4,6,8 lead motors >> Stepping on upward or downward pulse edge >> (selectable) >> DIP switch current settingvalue >> >> >> 4.1 Connector P1 configuration >> SignalFunctions >> PUL+(+5V) >> PUL- (PUL) >> Pulse signal: in single pulse(pulse/direction) mode, this input >> represents pulse signal, >> effective for each upward – rising edge; in double pulse mode >> (pulse/ pulse) this input >> represents clockwise(CW)pulse. For reliable response, pulse width >> should be longer >> than 1.5μs. >> DIR+ (+5V) >> >> DIR- (DIR) >> Direction signal: in single-pulse mode, this signal has low/high >> voltage levels, >> representing two directions of motor rotation; in double-pulse mode >> (set by inside >> jumper JMP1), this signal is counter-clock (CCW) pulse, effective >> on each rising edge. >> For reliable motion response, direction signal should be sent to >> driver 2μs before the >> first pulse in the reverse motion direction. >> ENA+ (+5V) >> ENA- (ENA) Enable signal: this signal is used for enable/disable, >> high level for enabling driver and low level for disabling driver. >> Usually le
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
Dan Not sure where i could upload pictures to Aaron > - Original Message - > From: "Organic Engines" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont. > Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 16:35:01 -0400 > > > Hi Aaron, > >Do you have some pictures of your system on the net for us to look at? > >A shot of the Machine and one of the control in particular? > >Dan > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Powered by Outblaze - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont
One stepper per axis Gantry runs on X axis rails and weighs about 90kg - 100kg Y axis weighs about 20 -30 kg And the spindle and mount 10-20kg All axis run directly from trapezoidal screws 16mm dia, 4mm pitch with brass nuts. At present it is set for 16 microsteps. Not sure if this answers the last question The motors are actually FL86STH156-4208 Voltage: 5.25V Current (phase): 4.2A Resistance (Phase): 1.25Ohm Inductance (Phase): 8mH Holding Torque: 11.96Nm Length: 156mm Thanks Aaron > - Original Message - > From: "Dave Engvall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" > Subject: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont > Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 13:26:15 -0700 > > > Aaron, > > Other responders have indicated they needed more infomation. > If you can fill in the blanks and confirm or correct assumptions > then someone has a real chance of providing > concrete help. It won't be me as I'm a servo person. Sorry. > > OK, lets gather some more information here: > > Stated or implied. 1.5m x 1.5 m gantry. One stepper motor per axis. > I assume the gantry is the X axis and the Y which lags is mounted on the X. > How much weight are you driving per axis? > How do you drive the axes; eg. gears, timing belts, etc and what > are the ratios? > Another way to put this is one step moves you how far? > Step rate under normal conditions. > > > > This info is for the stepper experts. :-) > Copied off a vendor site. > > Stepper motor: > > The FL60STH86-3008BF is a High Torque three stack Nema 23, 1.8 > degree hybrid stepper motor with a holding torque of 3Nm (425 > Oz-in) > > Driver: > > Supply voltage up to +50VDC, current output > up to 4.2A peak > Optically isolated input signals, pulse > frequency up to 400 KHz > Automatic idle-current reduction > 3-state current control for less motor heating > 15 selectable resolutions in decimal and > binary > Suitable for 4,6,8 lead motors > Stepping on upward or downward pulse edge > (selectable) > DIP switch current settingvalue > > > 4.1 Connector P1 configuration > SignalFunctions > PUL+(+5V) > PUL- (PUL) > Pulse signal: in single pulse(pulse/direction) mode, this input > represents pulse signal, > effective for each upward – rising edge; in double pulse mode > (pulse/ pulse) this input > represents clockwise(CW)pulse. For reliable response, pulse width > should be longer > than 1.5μs. > DIR+ (+5V) > > DIR- (DIR) > Direction signal: in single-pulse mode, this signal has low/high > voltage levels, > representing two directions of motor rotation; in double-pulse mode > (set by inside > jumper JMP1), this signal is counter-clock (CCW) pulse, effective > on each rising edge. > For reliable motion response, direction signal should be sent to > driver 2μs before the > first pulse in the reverse motion direction. > ENA+ (+5V) > ENA- (ENA) Enable signal: this signal is used for enable/disable, > high level for enabling driver and low level for disabling driver. > Usually left unconnected(enabled). > > HTH > > Dave > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ > > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Powered by Outblaze - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
Hi Aaron, Do you have some pictures of your system on the net for us to look at? A shot of the Machine and one of the control in particular? Dan - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont
Aaron, Other responders have indicated they needed more infomation. If you can fill in the blanks and confirm or correct assumptions then someone has a real chance of providing concrete help. It won't be me as I'm a servo person. Sorry. OK, lets gather some more information here: Stated or implied. 1.5m x 1.5 m gantry. One stepper motor per axis. I assume the gantry is the X axis and the Y which lags is mounted on the X. How much weight are you driving per axis? How do you drive the axes; eg. gears, timing belts, etc and what are the ratios? Another way to put this is one step moves you how far? Step rate under normal conditions. This info is for the stepper experts. :-) Copied off a vendor site. Stepper motor: The FL60STH86-3008BF is a High Torque three stack Nema 23, 1.8 degree hybrid stepper motor with a holding torque of 3Nm (425 Oz-in) Driver: Supply voltage up to +50VDC, current output up to 4.2A peak Optically isolated input signals, pulse frequency up to 400 KHz Automatic idle-current reduction 3-state current control for less motor heating 15 selectable resolutions in decimal and binary Suitable for 4,6,8 lead motors Stepping on upward or downward pulse edge (selectable) DIP switch current settingvalue 4.1 Connector P1 configuration SignalFunctions PUL+(+5V) PUL- (PUL) Pulse signal: in single pulse(pulse/direction) mode, this input represents pulse signal, effective for each upward – rising edge; in double pulse mode (pulse/ pulse) this input represents clockwise(CW)pulse. For reliable response, pulse width should be longer than 1.5μs. DIR+ (+5V) DIR- (DIR) Direction signal: in single-pulse mode, this signal has low/high voltage levels, representing two directions of motor rotation; in double-pulse mode (set by inside jumper JMP1), this signal is counter-clock (CCW) pulse, effective on each rising edge. For reliable motion response, direction signal should be sent to driver 2μs before the first pulse in the reverse motion direction. ENA+ (+5V) ENA- (ENA) Enable signal: this signal is used for enable/disable, high level for enabling driver and low level for disabling driver. Usually left unconnected(enabled). HTH Dave- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Micro stepper driver MSD542 / KL-5042 cont.
I think I would like to clear a few miss understandings here. I am not an engineer and will never be one. I am a furniture maker/designer with a keen interest in digital technologies and linux. I have built a 1.5m x 1.5m gantry style router table with high spec rails, carriages and bearings. It has been two years in the planning and taken 2-3 months to build in my spare time. I bought a CNC Kit from an online company in UK (who have not been able to sort my problem out) consisting of 3 x MSD542 micro controllers, 3 X FL86STH High torque Nema 34 Stepper motors and 2 X L6-PF11-001 (PS407) power supply units. The motors are connected in parallel with micro stepping set to 16 and the power at 4.2 amps. It has cost me well over £1000 and I would like to get it to work with a reasonable amount of accuracy. I have tried using many settings of speed and acceleration but I always get a the same result. When engraving a line text the individual letters look okay but they are always misplaced along the y axis by between 5mm and 30mm, and always in the same direction. My question today is could this be because I have not used shielded cable to wire the powersupply and drivers together. If this could be the problem what kind of cable should I use. Or is there something else I should look into If any one can offer some advise I would be very grateful Cheers Aaron -- Powered by Outblaze - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
