Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
On 17.04.2014 14:04, John Pinner wrote: > Filip, > > On 17 April 2014 12:39, Filip Kłębczyk wrote: >> W dniu 17.04.2014 10:55, carina.ha...@dlr.de pisze: >> > > >> I see financial aid as a similar method (to make attendees more diverse in >> terms of their wealth status or "geographical penalty"). But I think the >> better solution is to just work on lowering costs of the event (I think the >> biggest ones are catering and venue rent cost). That would result: >> 1. Reducing per attendee cost -> allows lower price of tickets >> 2. Lower price of tickets -> event more accessible to people regardless of >> wealth status >> 3. Lower price of tickets -> lower costs of financial aid per person >> 4. lower costs of financial aid per person -> more people that could receive >> financial aid or improving other areas of conference >> >> It's really simple logic. > > For once, Filip, I agree with you! Huzzah! The EPS board agrees on this as well. -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] conference length
There is people that organized his (family) holiday around EP. Moving across Europe for just 3 days in the middle of July will reduce the appeal of tech-tourism and make things like partner-program less effective. My 2¢. Peace, R. -- Roberto Polli Community Manager Babel - a business unit of Par-Tec S.p.A. - http://www.babel.it T: +39.06.9826.9651 M: +39.340.652.2736 F: +39.06.9826.9680 P.zza S.Benedetto da Norcia, 33 - 00040 Pomezia (Roma) CONFIDENZIALE: Questo messaggio ed i suoi allegati sono di carattere confidenziale per i destinatari in indirizzo. E' vietato l'inoltro non autorizzato a destinatari diversi da quelli indicati nel messaggio originale. Se ricevuto per errore, l'uso del contenuto e' proibito; si prega di comunicarlo al mittente e cancellarlo immediatamente. ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
W dniu 17.04.2014 15:23, M.-A. Lemburg pisze: We had wanted to make the Berlin proposal public sooner than that, but we had wanted to put up an updated proposal after the venue changes compared to their original proposal. We never received an updated proposal, so then eventually went live with the original one. What about the proposal from Belgium you mentioned on EP in the lobby? So there was no proposal or what? What false accusations? That you said: "Poles wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway" These are your words. Have you already forgotten how and what where you shouting it in the hotel lobby? Or you don't want to remember. Yes, those false accusations. I never record talks with other people, but will have to use sound recording device next time talking with you or ask for some neutral witness, because otherwise you easily deny the facts. I have many Polish friends and don't have any doubt that any one of them can organize a EuroPython conference. In fact, Ewa, the PSF event organizer is from Poland and she's managing PyCon US, a 2000+ attendee event. Good, that you changed your mind about Poles. I appreciate that. I know you were complaining about the CFP for 2014 and was trying to mediate a bit after you had approached both Fabio and Giovanni in rather inappropriate ways. I apologized to you for the delays in the CFP process, but in the end, the mediation effort didn't work out. Well if you are calling mediation shouting and insulting in the lobby, then congratulations for your sense of humour! You had missed the CFP deadline for 2013 and complained. I haven't complained about CFP 2013 - we were only asking about possibility to apply. So you are making false statements here. You then missed the deadline again for 2014 and complained. Interestingly everyone missed deadline in 2014 and only Python Verband which you are active member and candidate for chair in last polls (not chosen) didn't miss anything. If everything was so perfect, why EPS considered moving deadline further, but then changed it's mind about the idea? It shows that something wasn't all right. Instead of putting so much effort into complaining, why don't you redirect your energy into putting together a preliminary proposal for 2015 or a future year, so that you are prepared and only need to tweak it a bit to meet the final CFP requirements ? I'm currently putting my energy to make PyCon PL better than last one. I haven't considered applying for organizing EuroPython after such "good" experiences from 2012/2013 with EPS. As I've already wrote I appreciate EPS is finally changing. It's a pity it wasn't that way year ago. > It's a learning process for all of us. We make mistakes and learn, just like everyone else in the community. I have a feeling that this change was a result of controversial process for 2014 CFP. If I would sit quietly maybe EPS wouldn't feel a need for change. Regards, Filip ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] conference length
Il giorno 17/apr/2014, alle ore 14:29, Martijn Faassen ha scritto: > Hey Carina, > > On 04/17/2014 10:24 AM, carina.ha...@dlr.de wrote: > >> This definitely it not a perfect compensation for attending a talk >> live, but it might help some of you to consider this. I personally >> use this a lot on conferences which offer streaming and/or >> recordings. Okay, I now I gave my two cents. But this shall be >> enough. :) > > That's a good point, of course, thank you. > > I think it would be good to take stock at some point though, and see whether > in 2015 and beyond we may want to go back to the previous duration of the > conference or make other adjustments. > > As Andreas suggested, we could to some type of survey, though I wouldn't do > it *just* at the conference itself, as you'd only catch those willing to show > up for 5 days there. :) On the other hand, asking to people that didn't attend one of the 5-days conferences is not very useful as well. I think the best target would be people that attended both formats. Thanks for your feedback. I’ll get back to your first message: > I was told by @europython on Twitter I wasn't required to show up for 5 days > of talks. I can make my own, shorter conference. So do I cut off the > beginning or the end? I'd prefer the sprints, so I guess I should show up in > day 3? What if a talk I submitted gets scheduled to day 2, though? Or if I > actually prefer seeing the talks on day 1 and 2? Now I have to make those > difficult choices myself. This quoted part gets to the point. If the conference was 3 days long, it might well be that that specific talk on day 2 wouldn’t make it to the schedule, because the schedule would contain *less* talks, so you wouldn’t get to see that talk anyway. Of course, a point could be made that you would get a better selection of talks in only 3 days, but, on the other hand, it would be more likely to have a schedule conflicts between such talks. It’s not an easy cut, and I’m sure we agree that there’s no solution that fits everybody. At the end of the day, more talks for more days seems like a better overall solution, and people are welcome to consider it a 3-days conference if they feel so. Consider that the submissions far exceed even the current schedule, so it’s not like “anything gets in”. Notice also that we got lots of positive feedback for the 1-week formula; the hallway track is far better because you have more time to meet people, talk to them, remeet them a second time, schedule a meetup, go out for a dinner or a beer. In a 2-and-a-half conference, it’s much harder, especially at the size of EuroPython. I would also account for the fact that almost 900 people joined EuroPython in Florence last year, with more than a 2x boost in 3 years, and the general feedback has been overwhelming positive. Even sponsors found the 1-week format acceptable for the exhibition, though it is obviously not a standard. Once they join, they see that they get to talk to people during the 5 days, it’s not like they have lots of people in the first day and nobody in the following days; and even for sponsors, it’s OK if they join only 3 days if they feel so and they want to keep the budget tight. As for the trainings: participation in trainings has very much exceeded any previous figures, when the trainings were in separate days. Separate days is a worst solution under any point of view: it requires a different conference pass and for different days, so people need to evaluate whether they want to join more days (= more hotel costs) with an additional cost for the pass, “just” to join 3-4 trainings (maybe). Maybe you really only want a 4-hour dive into *1* specific topic, not 4 of them; would you pay the full training ticket for just 1 or 2 trainings you really care about? Figures say most people don’t. Even in PyCon USA, there is a very large difference between attendance to the conference and attendance to trainings, and that’s a shame. It’s also a big loss for conference organizers, because they have a severely under-used venue; venues are quite expensive and give the best value for the money when they’re almost full (let’s say, at least 80% full). If you use a venue at 30%, it’s a loss of money and you could as well use another venue in those days, and this makes organization more difficult. Making them parallel to the whole conference has been a serious won for everybody. So, while I’m personally always open to experimenting new formats and playing with new ideas, I would say that we have an overwhelming majority of positive feedbacks on the new structure, and it incidentally works much better cost-wise. -- Giovanni Bajo Python Italia APS EuroPython Society signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.pyt
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
Hi all,
I appreciate the recent vivid discussions on this list around important topics
like diversity. Many interesting opinions have been given about how to improve
the EuroPython conference experience to an even wider target group and make it
more balanced along multiple vectors. Some seemed to have been formulated under
a combination of stress and/or frustration. This might be expected in the
context of a complex project like organizing a conference for 1200 people,
where there are many people, opinions and interests involved, and often
contradicting ones, but not always clearly communicated.
While all this can be certainly improved I would hope to see this happening in
a way that doesn't inject previously accumulated frustration of various
stakeholders into the currently ongoing project, namely making happen what is
likely going to be the largest EuroPython conference organized so far ("large"
as in historically-grown, not as in think-big). I'm afraid that we're moving
into this direction which might reduce people's interest in attending this
conference as well as the current organizers' motivation for doing what they do
in their spare time.
So I dare remind us of the fact that we do have, in fact, two mailing lists,
Europython and Europython-Improve with the following current descriptions taken
from their Mailman listinfo pages below. I feel like we have stretched the term
"diversity" enough to start reconsidering continuing this discussion on the
Europython-Improve list, revitalizing it, much as it deserves.
Best,
Dinu
About EuroPython
A mailing list for discussing and planning EuroPython, the European
Python community conference. EuroPython 2014 will be held in July 2014
in Berlin. See the EuroPython website for details:
http://www.europython.eu/
To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the EuroPython
Archives.
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
About Europython-improve
This is the place to work together on making EuroPython happen each year.
Expect around 15 emails each week, with some periods of not so much
traffic,
and periods of lots of activity as particular things need organising.
To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the Europython-
improve Archives. (The current archive is only available to the list
members.)
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython-improve
___
EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin
EuroPython mailing list
EuroPython@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
On 17.04.2014 14:36, Martijn Faassen wrote: > Hey, > > On 04/17/2014 01:24 PM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: >> In short, we'll have the EPS run the conference, with international >> work groups doing the work that can be done remotely and the local team >> providing on-site support. This will resolve the problem of losing >> institutional knowledge every time we change location and greatly >> reduce the risk a local organizer has to take. > > Very nice! > > An example of institutional knowledge getting somewhat lost is the duration > of conference thing I > recently talked about -- when I did the research on how the change happened, > it's all a very logical > step taken year on year based on the previous year's conference, and at least > some people seemed not > aware that it'd been 3 days for years before then. If you're looking for information on previous conferences, you should check this page: http://www.europython-society.org/europython As others have already mentioned, the 5 day event is a result of integrating the tutorials which were on separate days before 2011 into the conference. This resulted in much better tutorial attendance, so the integrated approach was continued. > Of course that's hardly a serious case, but I do think that institutional > knowledge you have more > overview and therefore better ability to step back and take stock once every > while. Sure, we could try having separate training days again, but then we would also have fewer talks. Perhaps we could do a poll at EuroPython 2014 in Berlin to see what the attendees think about it. Personally, I prefer to have fewer parallel tracks and a longer conference - you get to see more interesting talks and there are fewer overlaps. Cheers, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
On 17.04.2014 14:29, Filip Kłębczyk wrote: > W dniu 17.04.2014 13:41, M.-A. Lemburg pisze: >> Filip, >> >> all this is documented on the CFP pages for the years 2011, 2013 and >> 2014: >> >> http://www.europython-society.org/cfp > > Yes, I've wrote in one of previous mails that this is now public, where was > it year ago in July? We had wanted to make the Berlin proposal public sooner than that, but we had wanted to put up an updated proposal after the venue changes compared to their original proposal. We never received an updated proposal, so then eventually went live with the original one. >> Also: Please stop bringing up or implying false accusations. You are >> doing yourself and everyone on this mailing list a disservice. > > What false accusations? That you said: > "Poles wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway" > > These are your words. Have you already forgotten how and what where you > shouting it in the hotel > lobby? Or you don't want to remember. Yes, those false accusations. I have many Polish friends and don't have any doubt that any one of them can organize a EuroPython conference. In fact, Ewa, the PSF event organizer is from Poland and she's managing PyCon US, a 2000+ attendee event. I know you were complaining about the CFP for 2014 and was trying to mediate a bit after you had approached both Fabio and Giovanni in rather inappropriate ways. I apologized to you for the delays in the CFP process, but in the end, the mediation effort didn't work out. You had missed the CFP deadline for 2013 and complained. You then missed the deadline again for 2014 and complained. Instead of putting so much effort into complaining, why don't you redirect your energy into putting together a preliminary proposal for 2015 or a future year, so that you are prepared and only need to tweak it a bit to meet the final CFP requirements ? >> FWIW: As I've written in a separate email on this thread, the EPS is >> aiming to make it easier for local teams to make a proposal to have >> EuroPython in their location. > > As I've already wrote I appreciate EPS is finally changing. It's a pity it > wasn't that way year ago. It's a learning process for all of us. We make mistakes and learn, just like everyone else in the community. -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
W dniu 17.04.2014 13:59, M.-A. Lemburg pisze: Unfortunately, we did not have much choice in recent selections, with only a single submitted proposal. It would be good to tell a bit more what caused that others didn't submit proposals. Well if someone is interested how things looked here is e-mail I've sent to PSF on 1st of July 2013 explaining what actually happened and how things looked like. tl;dr Originally the Call for (organizers) proposals was supposed to be published in Autumn 2012 with deadline for proposals in Spring 2013. It ended giving Call for (organizers) proposals in mid-May 2013 and deadline in mid-June 2013. Many other issues along the way. Dear Board of Python Software Foundation, I'm writing to you because I believe that these kind of things shouldn't pass silently and I also believe that this story should be a warning for others that every part of Python community should be respected and treated seriously - especially if we all want to keep status of that great community Jesse Noller was talking about on PyCon US. The mail is about how we tried to apply for organizing EuroPython and how we hit the wall several times during last two years. Below is an explanation of what actually happened: 1. January 2012 - Fabio Pliger informed on EP public mailing list that no one applied for organizing EuroPython 2013/2014 and he is looking forward for concrete and serious proposals [1] 2. Beginning of March 2012 - on our behalf Łukasz Langa (which for long was and is still active in PyCon PL Program Committee) talked with Fabio Pliger on PyCon US '12 about possibility of still applying for EuroPython 2013/2014. Fabio asked to contact him and Laura Creighton about details. We've sent the e-mail on 11th of March. 3. April 2012 - after a month of waiting we've finally got the answer that it is too late to apply for EP2013/2014 and instead we should apply for EP2014/2015. Laura Creighton suggested for us to talk on EP2013 about applying for EP2014/EP2015 4. July 2012 - On EP I was informed by Fabio that there will be a call for organizers in Autumn for EP2014/EP2015, so then the details will be provided. Some of us arrived day before EP to help a bit Italian organizers. On EP there was EPS (EuroPython Society) meeting where new EPS board has been chosen. Results of the meeting can be read at [2], here is the especially important part: "The new board will put out a call for proposal for 2014, with a requirements specification during the fall of 2012. A deadline for bids will be in the early spring of 2013. Organisers of Europython 2014 will be expected to take part in the organisation of the 2013 conference, to learn more about how to arrange a conference on this scale." 5. Autumn 2012 - no CfP, no details 6. 6th January 2013 - I've asked Fabio when the CfP is released, because it is already January and it was supposed to be published in autumn previous year. I've got answer that in _a_few_days [3][4] 7. 8th February 2013 - I've asked again about CfP and no one even cared to answer briefly how the situation looks like [5] 8. 22th February 2013 - I've asked (this time privately only Fabio) about when I can expect call for EP2014/2015 and if there is a way I can help. 9. 5th March 2013 - I've received reply from Fabio that he can send me a raw material of EP proposal details and with my help this can be prepared earlier. I've agreed and asked to send me the raw document. The document wasn't send by Fabio. [6] 10. 6th March - 15th May - silence again 11. 15th May - CfP (CfO) was announced I'm sorry, but after so much time of waiting, me and the others had a right to not treat seriously EPS to release any CfP (CfO) in 2013 at all. For example I've made my own plans for May and 1st half of June (several trips including one longer to Finland which was planned in April (booked the tickets) and I was busy preparing the launch of two conferences websites). When the CfP came I was really angry, because I've realized I won't have time to apply for it and gather all the people again to send a serious proposal). Fabio contacted me in the June and I've informed him how the situation looks from our PoV and that we won't be able to submit a proposal in current situation. Fabio's reply wasn't good, because not only it was unpleasant (putting blame on us), but also contained untrue statement - that I did not want to help in March and that I've sent reply that I won't help, which was not truth [7]+[6]. Later Marc Andre-Lemburg informed that it must have been a miscommunication suggesting that Fabio didn't understand well what I've written [6]. We were asked to write how the CfP (CfO) rules can be changed in order for us to send the proposal. I expressed my view on that: "Current situation is really hard. It's after the deadline, we have currently busy period and I would have to gather people that previously wanted to organize EP once again (n
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
Hey, On 04/17/2014 01:24 PM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: In short, we'll have the EPS run the conference, with international work groups doing the work that can be done remotely and the local team providing on-site support. This will resolve the problem of losing institutional knowledge every time we change location and greatly reduce the risk a local organizer has to take. Very nice! An example of institutional knowledge getting somewhat lost is the duration of conference thing I recently talked about -- when I did the research on how the change happened, it's all a very logical step taken year on year based on the previous year's conference, and at least some people seemed not aware that it'd been 3 days for years before then. Of course that's hardly a serious case, but I do think that institutional knowledge you have more overview and therefore better ability to step back and take stock once every while. Regards, Martijn ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Incorrect charset for the Europython mailing list
In a message of Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:02:25 +0300, Marius Gedminas writes: >On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 12:32:34PM +0200, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: >> On 17.04.2014 11:51, Laura Creighton wrote: >> > I didn't realise that making changes to the charset encoding wasn't >> > something >> > that you did from inside mailman. Sorry about that. I will see about >> > getting the encoding fixed on python.org then, if that is where the fix >> > needs to be applied. >> >> The footers have to use the encoding of the ML preferred language charset. >> Since the europython ML is set to US English as preferred language, >> the charset is ASCII. > >Where's that language -> charset mapping defined? > >> That's how Mailman works; it's not something that could be changed on >> the server side - except for patching Mailman itself, of course. > >Are those mappings hardcoded in Mailman? > >Marius Gedminas hardcoded in /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py , as far as I can tell, one charset for each language choice. I've asked about this on the mailman_users mailing list (before mal replied). It seems an odd design choice, to me, so I wondered if I had missed a way to override this choice, or if there was some compelling reason why it _absolutely has to be done in a config file_ that I don't understand. I will write back if I attain illumination. Laura ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] conference length
Hey Carina, On 04/17/2014 10:24 AM, carina.ha...@dlr.de wrote: This definitely it not a perfect compensation for attending a talk live, but it might help some of you to consider this. I personally use this a lot on conferences which offer streaming and/or recordings. Okay, I now I gave my two cents. But this shall be enough. :) That's a good point, of course, thank you. I think it would be good to take stock at some point though, and see whether in 2015 and beyond we may want to go back to the previous duration of the conference or make other adjustments. As Andreas suggested, we could to some type of survey, though I wouldn't do it *just* at the conference itself, as you'd only catch those willing to show up for 5 days there. :) Regards, Martijn ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
W dniu 17.04.2014 13:41, M.-A. Lemburg pisze: Filip, all this is documented on the CFP pages for the years 2011, 2013 and 2014: http://www.europython-society.org/cfp Yes, I've wrote in one of previous mails that this is now public, where was it year ago in July? Also: Please stop bringing up or implying false accusations. You are doing yourself and everyone on this mailing list a disservice. What false accusations? That you said: "Poles wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway" These are your words. Have you already forgotten how and what where you shouting it in the hotel lobby? Or you don't want to remember. FWIW: As I've written in a separate email on this thread, the EPS is aiming to make it easier for local teams to make a proposal to have EuroPython in their location. As I've already wrote I appreciate EPS is finally changing. It's a pity it wasn't that way year ago. Regards, Filip ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
Filip, On 17 April 2014 12:39, Filip Kłębczyk wrote: > W dniu 17.04.2014 10:55, carina.ha...@dlr.de pisze: > > I see financial aid as a similar method (to make attendees more diverse in > terms of their wealth status or "geographical penalty"). But I think the > better solution is to just work on lowering costs of the event (I think the > biggest ones are catering and venue rent cost). That would result: > 1. Reducing per attendee cost -> allows lower price of tickets > 2. Lower price of tickets -> event more accessible to people regardless of > wealth status > 3. Lower price of tickets -> lower costs of financial aid per person > 4. lower costs of financial aid per person -> more people that could receive > financial aid or improving other areas of conference > > It's really simple logic. For once, Filip, I agree with you! Huzzah! All the best, John -- ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Incorrect charset for the Europython mailing list
On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 12:32:34PM +0200, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > On 17.04.2014 11:51, Laura Creighton wrote: > > I didn't realise that making changes to the charset encoding wasn't > > something > > that you did from inside mailman. Sorry about that. I will see about > > getting the encoding fixed on python.org then, if that is where the fix > > needs to be applied. > > The footers have to use the encoding of the ML preferred language charset. > Since the europython ML is set to US English as preferred language, > the charset is ASCII. Where's that language -> charset mapping defined? > That's how Mailman works; it's not something that could be changed on > the server side - except for patching Mailman itself, of course. Are those mappings hardcoded in Mailman? Marius Gedminas -- You have moved the mouse. NT must be restarted for the changes to take effect. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
On 16.04.2014 15:34, Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė wrote: > As far as I remember (and it's been a while) there was a lack of proposals > in general at least in the beginning. So whoever was serious about > organising EP could do it. > Has this changed over the past years and is there any reason to believe > that proposals are being approved or rejected according to geografy? (I > wouldn't think so, but that's just me.) Most certainly not. We would very much like the conference to move around in Europe as much as possible. Unfortunately, we did not have much choice in recent selections, with only a single submitted proposal. -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
Am 17.04.2014 um 07:39 schrieb Filip Kłębczyk : > > > I see financial aid as a similar method (to make attendees more diverse in > terms of their wealth status or "geographical penalty"). But I think the > better solution is to just work on lowering costs of the event (I think the > biggest ones are catering and venue rent cost). That would result: > 1. Reducing per attendee cost -> allows lower price of tickets > 2. Lower price of tickets -> event more accessible to people regardless of > wealth status > 3. Lower price of tickets -> lower costs of financial aid per person > 4. lower costs of financial aid per person -> more people that could receive > financial aid or improving other areas of conference > We discussed that already - why bring it up again? Ansdreas ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
Filip, all this is documented on the CFP pages for the years 2011, 2013 and 2014: http://www.europython-society.org/cfp Also: Please stop bringing up or implying false accusations. You are doing yourself and everyone on this mailing list a disservice. FWIW: As I've written in a separate email on this thread, the EPS is aiming to make it easier for local teams to make a proposal to have EuroPython in their location. Thanks, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
W dniu 17.04.2014 10:55, carina.ha...@dlr.de pisze: I hope I therewith could clarify that we already address the problem and do not start a big discussion about financial aid. ;) I think we all can agree that financial aid is a positive tool to make more diverse conference in terms of wealth status of attendees. But in my opinion it's not the most effective solution. It's a bit similar like with problem Lynn Root pointed. If there would be a lot of women submitting and passing this years reviews, there wouldn't be discussion about lack of gender diversity among speakers. The source of the problem is described in the NY Times article to which Lynn pointed. So to counter that problem several solutions were discussed (more active reaching PyLadies groups, convincing speakers that have multiply talks to limit the number to one in result freeing slots to fill agenda with more diverse speakers). I see financial aid as a similar method (to make attendees more diverse in terms of their wealth status or "geographical penalty"). But I think the better solution is to just work on lowering costs of the event (I think the biggest ones are catering and venue rent cost). That would result: 1. Reducing per attendee cost -> allows lower price of tickets 2. Lower price of tickets -> event more accessible to people regardless of wealth status 3. Lower price of tickets -> lower costs of financial aid per person 4. lower costs of financial aid per person -> more people that could receive financial aid or improving other areas of conference It's really simple logic. Regards, Filip ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
On 17.04.2014 07:18, Steve Barnes wrote: > On 16/04/14 18:22, Troy Howard wrote: >> I recently organized a conference in Budapest (Write The Docs EU). I can >> confirm that it's a great >> city to hold a conference in. Cheap lodging/food, lots of fun local culture >> outside of the >> conference, and easy to get to from all over Europe. Also, I felt safe and >> welcomed there as a >> native English speaker. >> >> Most importantly, there is a Budapest-based company, Prezi, who has an >> amazing events staff that >> help us organize our conference, has organized a number of smaller >> conference in their own venue >> (~100-150 people), and is also organizing a much larger conference (Craft >> Conf) in a much larger >> venue (~500-1000 people, IIRC). They could definitely help EuroPython >> succeed there. >> >> I'd be glad to put the EuroPython organizing team in touch with the Prezi >> event staff to discuss >> the possibility of hosting EuroPython 2015 in Budapest. >> >> Thanks, >> Troy >> >> > Troy, > > While Budapest would be an amazing location for EuroPython you have the > process backwards - The > local python community in the host city becomes the EuroPython organising > team if the produce the > accepted proposal - there is no central team that takes EuroPython on tour. This will change to 2015. The EPS is working on a model that'll make it much easier for local teams to make a proposal: http://www.europython-society.org/cfp In short, we'll have the EPS run the conference, with international work groups doing the work that can be done remotely and the local team providing on-site support. This will resolve the problem of losing institutional knowledge every time we change location and greatly reduce the risk a local organizer has to take. We will follow up with more details in the coming days with new blog posts: http://www.europython-society.org/ If a local team is interested in hosting EPC 2015, they should sign up to the blog. We will also post the final CFP on the usual mailing lists, of course, and try to actively reach out to national Python organizations, as well as volunteers for the work groups. -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
W dniu 16.04.2014 21:39, Andreas Jung pisze: Am 16.04.2014 um 09:52 schrieb Filip Kłębczyk : W dniu 16.04.2014 14:43, Andreas Jung pisze: The selection process has been always open afaik. Then where are all the proposals shown that were sent for 2014 and 2015 hosting? Where are the criteria that decided German proposal was better than the one from Belgium. In my opinion process is not open and transparent. Ask EPS. I've checked EPS website and it seems some issues with openess are now fixed. It's interesting however that on EP2013 Marc-Andre Lemburg spoke to me about German and Belgium proposals and on the website it is stated that there was only German proposal - very, very strange I would say... There wasn't for a good reason. I recommend you to talk to Marc-Andre Lemburg, maybe he can explain you how the situation looked like. Also I recommend you reading the mails on this mailing list since June 2012. Please what? I reported the problem to EPS in previous year and also to PSF. I find satisfying the fact that EPS finally tries to improve things and I look forward to it. However, there weren't any apologies for the last year unfair situation nor for the offensive talk of one of EPS high representatives. I think if someone from EPS has said: "Poles wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway" then it really is as offending as if someone would say "Women wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway" Only difference is type of discrimination (ethnic/gender). Regards, Filip ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Incorrect charset for the Europython mailing list
On 17.04.2014 11:51, Laura Creighton wrote: > I didn't realise that making changes to the charset encoding wasn't something > that you did from inside mailman. Sorry about that. I will see about > getting the encoding fixed on python.org then, if that is where the fix > needs to be applied. The footers have to use the encoding of the ML preferred language charset. Since the europython ML is set to US English as preferred language, the charset is ASCII. That's how Mailman works; it's not something that could be changed on the server side - except for patching Mailman itself, of course. -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Incorrect charset for the Europython mailing list
In a message of Thu, 17 Apr 2014 11:24:16 +0200, Veit Schiele writes: >-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- >Hash: SHA1 > >Hi Laura, > >the administrators of the list do not have access to the file system. >Therefore, we are not able to change the encoding of the list. After >all, we have removed the m-dashes from the footer. > >Kind regards, Veit >-END PGP SIGNATURE- I didn't realise that making changes to the charset encoding wasn't something that you did from inside mailman. Sorry about that. I will see about getting the encoding fixed on python.org then, if that is where the fix needs to be applied. Thanks very much, Laura Creighton ___ EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Incorrect charset for the Europython mailing list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Laura, the administrators of the list do not have access to the file system. Therefore, we are not able to change the encoding of the list. After all, we have removed the m-dashes from the footer. Kind regards, Veit Am 16.04.14 02:16, schrieb Laura Creighton: > The EP mailing list is configured so that it has: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > while the footer has: > EuroPython 2014 \x96 Berlin, 21th\x9627th July > > Notice the two \x96 characters. The intent is almost certainly to have those > interpreted in the windows-1252 charset, where they mean an en-dash. > > But in us-ascii, this is an illegal character. And my mailer complains > bitterly about the problem. > > So it looks like we need to fix 2 things. The first is to change the charset > from "us-ascii" to something more reasonable, especially since most European > languages do not fit into ascii -- utf-8 perhaps? > > And the second thing is to change the footer text to have whatever is an > en-dash in whatever charset we decide to use. > > Are there any reasons not to move to utf-8 ? > > Laura > > ___ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython - -- Veit Schiele EuroPython 2014 - The European Python Conference in Berlin 21-27 July 2014 at bcc Berlin Congress Center Meet with the Python community: tutorials, talks, sprints and socializing ep2014.europython.eu - @europython on Twitter - facebook.com/europython -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (Darwin) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTT53AAAoJEFhMi+4XysVgOnIH/RGGmPwQolTggoMjhNIHEd7X EcS7r28Rhi2sdcxowIw70Qy/U+iy9jmfAWMHQIzKcTkx3Ia/QZspIgzXIppFnzi7 vKR+QLYPkjtenSdGSb/lljW5E6ufKvlCnvteOzLS3wYMHPjA2IvAc6moUb7kLKsr vg7+LG2yZHww8Kh4qsSoaAHMVDyCjEhN1D4bJ4ToxLwIvxv13Ssh4J5taMD+bklT V9GqYYuTciAMw/I2Ypdwbxsxz1XPB93GfCGn33USuTqEV/RUisCXTFItxtUE/76X YwcuV4tqHoIJlVpJRVQXNFzX4N6DXyUj59wlE9UbVq0eq721yn9V+mC34PuTEO8= =gRwM -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ EuroPython 2014 - Berlin, 21th-27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
Hi, even if I respond to an older mail, I wanted to address some questions here. > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: EuroPython [mailto:europython- > bounces+carina.haupt=dlr...@python.org] Im Auftrag von Filip Klebczyk > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. April 2014 11:56 > An: europython lists > Betreff: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees > > Hello, > > I have two points: > 1. I'm curious what are stats regarding nationality/country of attendees. This information were not collected in the CfP I think. Also not the gender. > 2. I've noticed that together with this year edition there are 13 EuroPythons, > where: > * 2 of them were located in former Eastern Bloc countries > * 11 of them were located in Western Countries > > Having in mind that there is gap disproportion between wealth level of > Western and Eastern Europe I'm curious if EPS or anybody feeling > responsible for EuroPython thinks about addressing that problem in future? > > In my opinion the conference that calls itself EuroPython (and for example > not WestEuroPython) should take that into account. This is taken into account by the financial assistance program. Next to supporting especially, women, students, speakers and contributors of the Python community, we also take into account the origin country, even if this is not as explicitly stated as the other attributes. Thereby we actively consider that EuroPythons main target audience should be European citizens, not just West-European citizens, especially since the alternatives there are less (just as you stated). We do this exactly due to the reason that we want diversity in the conference. I hope I therewith could clarify that we already address the problem and do not start a big discussion about financial aid. ;) Best regards Carina > Regards, > Filip > > PS. HINT: organizing conference in less wealthy countries usually (but not > always) also results in lower conference costs, in result making it more > accessible to those with "small pockets". > ___ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
W dniu 17.04.2014 09:45, Javier Gonel pisze: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Filip Kłębczyk mailto:fklebc...@gmail.com>> wrote: W dniu 16.04.2014 16:16, Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė pisze: Filip, what are you trying to achieve? I see a lot of negativity and pointing fingers. My email clearly said - in the begining. What is your point with all this, please tell. The topic was about future EuroPythons and that maybe more should be done in Eastern Europe. The "should" in that sentence feels like forcing diversity IMHO. Seems you overlooked word "maybe" in the sentence. Here you go: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/maybe As you see word is connected with possibility/uncertainty; neither yes nor no. How that relates to forcing sth? Regards, Filip ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] conference length
Hi, I think, and here read, that there are a lot of different opinions to the perfect conference length and structure and I can follow all your arguments. I do not want to state my opinion here too, but point out that a streaming and recoding of nearly all talks is planned. This allows everybody who feels overwhelmed from the offers of EuroPython 2014 to concentrate on the more interactive parts. This definitely it not a perfect compensation for attending a talk live, but it might help some of you to consider this. I personally use this a lot on conferences which offer streaming and/or recordings. Okay, I now I gave my two cents. But this shall be enough. :) Best regards Carina > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: EuroPython [mailto:europython- > bounces+carina.haupt=dlr...@python.org] Im Auftrag von Martijn Faassen > Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. April 2014 23:29 > An: europython@python.org > Betreff: Re: [EuroPython] conference length > > Hey, > > On 04/15/2014 10:33 PM, Horst Gutmann wrote: > > Every conference I've attended so far had at least on or two time > slots > each day where none of the talks appealed to me and so I went > to explore > the city or just got some sleep at the hotel. This way the > event stayed > fresh and exciting to me and I didn't feel bad for > skipping some talks if I > simply didn't feel like it. That naturally > only works to a certain extend > and > eventually I just want to get out > of the conference again. > > I guess that's one way to deal with it (especially in Florence!). But I wonder > whether that's a way to cope with a problem: should there be time slots at a > conference with 3 or 4 or more parallel tracks where none of the talks appeal > to an attendee? Of course you can't please everyone, but if it happens to a > lot of people you might have a problem. > > When I'm at a conference I tend to want to focus on it. At the third day of a > three day conference I typically notice I am getting tired. I'm glad that > lightning talks tend to be slotted in then at EuroPython, because that's > always a nice variety of things. > > Then there's the potential issue of people who simply don't have time (or > resources) to go to a conference of that length. They can of course attend it > for a couple of days, but people may instead elect to go to a shorter > conference instead where they can have the full experience. It's hard to get > a feel for that though; EuroPython certainly has been growing in attendance, > so that's an argument against that. > > [snip] > > 5 days is a really long > > time, so perhaps the orgas and the EPS would be willing to experiment > > here with the format a little bit I the future? :-) > > It seems to have been a slow change. > > From the beginning in 2002, it had been a 3 day conference; in Charleroi, in > Gothenburg, in 2006 at CERN and in 2007 and 2008 in Vilnius there was a 3 day > conference too. > > In 2009 in Birmingham there were 3 main conference days, plus 3 tutorial > days before it. This might be the introduction of the tutorial days; it's > possible > there were tutorial days at some previous EuroPython, but certainly not all > the time -- I find it hard to google up the schedules now. > > I misremember EuroPython 2010 in Birmingham (the last time I attended); I > thought it was like 2009, but best I can find now it had 4 days of main > conference, plus two days of tutorials in the weekend before it. > But I cannot Google up the time table so I'm not 100% sure. > > I can find an announcement from 2010/11/18 for the conference in 2011 > where the tentative schedule was 2 tutorial days with 4 conference days, the > same as in 2010 in Birmingham. Then the dates were shifted > (2011/02/17) to have everything from monday to friday (5 days, talk days in > parallel with tutorial). > > Since I last attended in 2010 and actually forgot it was 4 days in Birmingham > and was used to 3 day conferences before it, the 5 day massive schedule > looked rather sudden, but it was not. > > Each new format was a reasonable small change from the format of the year > before. Each change had a motivation, but I wonder whether the final effect > was entirely intentional. > > Regards, > > Martijn > > > ___ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Filip Kłębczyk wrote: > W dniu 16.04.2014 16:16, Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė pisze: > > Filip, what are you trying to achieve? I see a lot of negativity and >> pointing fingers. My email clearly said - in the begining. >> What is your point with all this, please tell. >> > > The topic was about future EuroPythons and that maybe more should be done > in Eastern Europe. > The "should" in that sentence feels like forcing diversity IMHO. > > You stated: > > "So whoever was serious about organising EP could do it. " > I just disagree with that statement, by looking on my own negative > experiences and EPS knows why I have right to have negative experiences. > The question is do we want to dwell again into that or talk about future > EuroPythons as intended in the first mail? I prefer the latter. > > > Regards, > Filip > > ___ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > -- Javier Gonel Senior Software Engineer http://javier.gr/ PGP: 0x53D69D57 ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
