Re: [EVDL] Most efficient drive system for a bicycle/tricycle.

[Michael Ross via EV]

In case it matters you may need to license ebikes with motor greater than
750W. Ymmv

On May 28, 2017 4:19 PM, "George Tyler via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> Have a look at ebikes.ca , they have a setup that is basically a hub
> motor used like mid motor run at a higher voltage and RPM than it is
> normally used at, called the "strokemonkey". A 24V, 1kw motor used at 48V
> gives 2kw. There is a calculator on there that is very helpful. Verne
> Pavreel who has posted a few times Has a similar setup, one of the issues
> with ebike setups is that the quoted efficiency is the maximum,  on a hill
> you are often getting 50% with common ebikes. A more powerful motor will do
> better on hills if run at the same power as the 50% ones, but then the
> efficiency at light load suffers. Running the motor through a transmission
> with gears that can be changed can help a lot to achieve high efficiency at
> both extremes at the expense of drive complexity and reliability.
> A 1kw ebike motor may draw 5A 48V at full speed lo load! While a
> Prius 40kw draws 1A... obviously much more effort has been put into making
> the Prius motor high efficiency. I have thought of using the Prius MG1
> motor, the small 20kw one, in an ebike. What current does the Lynch motor
> draw running free at 48V? anyone know?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> via EV
> Sent: 29 May, 2017 6:53 AM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: [EVDL] Most efficient drive system for a bicycle/tricycle.
>
> I'm looking at options for my Terratrike.  Mid vs hub seems to be the
> thing.  Seems bike systems are only 80% efficient.  Has any one had good
> success with efficiency as well as speed.  I'm looking to top out at 30mph
> with a 20 inch wheel. Is voltage an issue?  I'd like to keep it to 48vdc
> but I'm willing to go higher or lower if it is an advantage(money or
> performance).  I will eventually have a shell with solar panels plus my 250
> pound hunk O' fat.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient drive system for a bicycle/tricycle.

[Michael Ross via EV]

In many states there is a limit to the speed a pedal assisted motorized
bicycle can legally achieve on level ground. 20mph is common. What you can
hit on a downhill is not considered.

You will find it difficult to get gearing that will provide a 30mph top
speed and allow enough torque at a standstill to start off with even the
slightest incline.  Since you are a fairly heavy pilot (and with the added
battery weight) this will be additionally difficult. You will have some
trouble finding hub motors (wherever you actually mount them, these are
your better choices) with useful gearing and that can take repeated
application of starting torque from you and the motor together.  Starting
off is you worst condition structurally.

I think you want to investigate RC controller electronics (Kelley has stuff
that works). You did not say what sort of range you wish. A reasonable
starting point might be 10 miles on a charge. I was commuting 25 miles each
way with an Organic Transit ELF for a year. Battery-ing up for that was
costly. The ELF is a lot heavier due to substantial body work. Remember not
to let fully charged Li-ion cells too get hot.  Don't charge in the hot sun
and leave it all sitting out to broil.  It will ruin the cells, LiFePo
particularly. 100F or less only when fully charged.

As trike user, I always thought a trailer with a pusher motor would bee a
good arrangement. It allows you to dispense with the electric drive when
that makes sense. You will have an easier time creating an experimental
test chassis and battery mounting means if it is not stuck onto a severely
space constrained and less than heartily built compact tricycle.

Also the system can be switch from trike to trike or bike.

I say this with significant knowledge of recumbent trike design.  I own a
Greenspeed touring trike (20003 vintage GTO) which is considerably larger
and stouter than a Terratrike.

I would also advocate a streamlined tailbox of some sort to improve drag. A
front fairing provides less improvement for the cost and effort compared to
a tail box. Full streamlining is of course the best solution.  People have
maintained 45mph hour speeds for an hour with a good full fairing (level
ground).

I have been to SF where I believe you live. Respectfully and as one who
used to ride off weighing 250 pounds, I think will be disappointed with how
a recumbent trike functions with the steep grades you will encounter (until
you reduce your body weight below 200 pounds or less).  Even then it will
be quite strenuous and at time daunting.


There a folks in CA that have done a lot of the ground work for this.  You
would get ahead meeting and cultivating them. William Patterson  at UC
Irvine or Davis, I forget, used to teach ME classes on single track
recumbent design. Those classes spawned a host of smart recumbent builders.

Good luck.

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Russ Sciville via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> I can vouch for the Lynch motor as I use one on my ride on mower.Using
> three 90Ah 12v Pb cells it easily cuts for 20 minutes or more at time.
> A brilliantly simple but powerful design and I have even met the guy who
> designed it.
>
>   From: Lee Hart via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>  To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; Electric Vehicle
> Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>  Sent: Sunday, 28 May 2017, 20:09
>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Most efficient drive system for a bicycle/tricycle.
>
> Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> > I'm looking at options for my Terratrike.  Mid vs hub seems to be the
> thing.
> > Seems bike systems are only 80% efficient.  Has any one had good success
> with
> > efficiency as well as speed.  I'm looking to top out at 30mph with a 20
> inch
> > wheel. Is voltage an issue?  I'd like to keep it to 48vdc but I'm
> willing to
> > go higher or lower if it is an advantage(money or performance).  I will
> > eventually have a shell with solar panels...
>
> Maybe a Lynch motor (Lynch, Lemco, Etek, AGNI, etc.)? They are over 90%
> efficient, and being a DC motor, can be switched straight to the battery
> for no
> controller losses. Rig a series/parallel setup with switches or relays to
> get
> 12v/24v/48v for speed control; that's also essentially 100% efficient.
> --
> Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
> violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
> in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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>
>
>
>
>

Re: [EVDL] Drive Leaf EVs from CA, exporting to NC : Low-mileage Leaf EV glut

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Since this quest is about a 2011 Leaf which has a 3kW charger, the L2 option 
will automatically make this day-long sessions so not pleasant.
L3 is present in the vehicle so that is the preferred method.
Unless someone has a portable L3 charger that can plug into a 240V 50A (RV) 
service for 12kW charging for 1-2 hour sessions
where L3 chargers are not available, this is going to be a *loong* trip if 
done on the Leaf's own EV power
Hence my recommendation to use a tow dolly, I can supply the second hand tow 
dolly with the car. Just need a truck with 2" ball hitch.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 11:44 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] Drive Leaf EVs from CA, exporting to NC : Low-mileage Leaf EV 
glut

From experience my first trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles was about 20 
hours including fiddling time in Fresno to figure out the EVSE. I can now get 
to San Diego in that same time.  With a 30kw Leaf I think I can reduce the 
time.  This is with Level Three every 60 to 70 miles.  Also I didn't have the 
EVRUS system when I did that.  Now I can go down the I-5 and save time. San 
Francisco,(might hit the Level three at Nissan in Pleasanton) Santa Nella, 
Colinga, Lost Hills, Gorman, Buena Park, Capistrano.  From Capistrano It's 
possible to make it to San Diego. That is 6 or 7 stops depending on how 
adventurous you are.  About 16 hours.  Average speed 55mph.  550 miles.  So If 
you had perfect conditions across country That is 96 Hours driving and 
charging.  But it's not perfect so you could make it to Phoenix or Tuscon with 
some trouble(252 miles from Palm Desert with just level 2) but then it's 
litterly a desert till mid Texas.  Switching from route 10 to 20 it's then 
still bad till the South where there is some charging but It's going to be over 
a week if you drive steady. Lots of 4 hour sessions at level 2.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient drive system for a bicycle/tricycle.

[George Tyler via EV]

Have a look at ebikes.ca , they have a setup that is basically a hub motor used 
like mid motor run at a higher voltage and RPM than it is normally used at, 
called the "strokemonkey". A 24V, 1kw motor used at 48V gives 2kw. There is a 
calculator on there that is very helpful. Verne Pavreel who has posted a few 
times Has a similar setup, one of the issues with ebike setups is that the 
quoted efficiency is the maximum,  on a hill you are often getting 50% with 
common ebikes. A more powerful motor will do better on hills if run at the same 
power as the 50% ones, but then the efficiency at light load suffers. Running 
the motor through a transmission with gears that can be changed can help a lot 
to achieve high efficiency at both extremes at the expense of drive complexity 
and reliability.
A 1kw ebike motor may draw 5A 48V at full speed lo load! While a Prius 
40kw draws 1A... obviously much more effort has been put into making the Prius 
motor high efficiency. I have thought of using the Prius MG1 motor, the small 
20kw one, in an ebike. What current does the Lynch motor draw running free at 
48V? anyone know?

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: 29 May, 2017 6:53 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] Most efficient drive system for a bicycle/tricycle.

I'm looking at options for my Terratrike.  Mid vs hub seems to be the thing.  
Seems bike systems are only 80% efficient.  Has any one had good success with 
efficiency as well as speed.  I'm looking to top out at 30mph with a 20 inch 
wheel. Is voltage an issue?  I'd like to keep it to 48vdc but I'm willing to go 
higher or lower if it is an advantage(money or performance).  I will eventually 
have a shell with solar panels plus my 250 pound hunk O' fat.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] looking for cheap load tester (Battery Recycling lead-acid)

[Tom Keenan via EV]

The last couple of batteries I took to the recycler ended up being 27 cents a 
pound. Oakland, CA. 

Tom Keenan

> On May 27, 2017, at 8:47 PM, Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:
> 
> Wow! Last time I took some lead-acids to recycle (about a year ago in NJ) 
> they were paying 8 cents a pound.
> 
> Hardly worth the effort of lugging them around.
> 
> Al
> 
> 
> On 5/27/2017 4:14 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>>>  set the duds aside for recycling (you should get some money for them!
>> Just yesterday I was at the Maryland Recyclers and my favorite one off on
>> a side street was offering 22 cents a pound for lead-acids and the more
>> highly visibile recycler everyone goes to was only offering 20 cents.  So
>> it pays to check around.
>> 
>> Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient drive system for a bicycle/tricycle.

[Russ Sciville via EV]

I can vouch for the Lynch motor as I use one on my ride on mower.Using three 
90Ah 12v Pb cells it easily cuts for 20 minutes or more at time.
A brilliantly simple but powerful design and I have even met the guy who 
designed it.

  From: Lee Hart via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
 Sent: Sunday, 28 May 2017, 20:09
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Most efficient drive system for a bicycle/tricycle.
   
Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> I'm looking at options for my Terratrike.  Mid vs hub seems to be the thing.
> Seems bike systems are only 80% efficient.  Has any one had good success with
> efficiency as well as speed.  I'm looking to top out at 30mph with a 20 inch
> wheel. Is voltage an issue?  I'd like to keep it to 48vdc but I'm willing to
> go higher or lower if it is an advantage(money or performance).  I will
> eventually have a shell with solar panels...

Maybe a Lynch motor (Lynch, Lemco, Etek, AGNI, etc.)? They are over 90% 
efficient, and being a DC motor, can be switched straight to the battery for no 
controller losses. Rig a series/parallel setup with switches or relays to get 
12v/24v/48v for speed control; that's also essentially 100% efficient.
-- 
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient drive system for a bicycle/tricycle.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I'm looking at options for my Terratrike.  Mid vs hub seems to be the thing.
Seems bike systems are only 80% efficient.  Has any one had good success with
efficiency as well as speed.  I'm looking to top out at 30mph with a 20 inch
wheel. Is voltage an issue?  I'd like to keep it to 48vdc but I'm willing to
go higher or lower if it is an advantage(money or performance).  I will
eventually have a shell with solar panels...


Maybe a Lynch motor (Lynch, Lemco, Etek, AGNI, etc.)? They are over 90% 
efficient, and being a DC motor, can be switched straight to the battery for no 
controller losses. Rig a series/parallel setup with switches or relays to get 
12v/24v/48v for speed control; that's also essentially 100% efficient.

--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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[EVDL] Most efficient drive system for a bicycle/tricycle.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

I'm looking at options for my Terratrike.  Mid vs hub seems to be the thing.  
Seems bike systems are only 80% efficient.  Has any one had good success with 
efficiency as well as speed.  I'm looking to top out at 30mph with a 20 inch 
wheel. Is voltage an issue?  I'd like to keep it to 48vdc but I'm willing to go 
higher or lower if it is an advantage(money or performance).  I will eventually 
have a shell with solar panels plus my 250 pound hunk O' fat.  Lawrence Rhodes
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[EVDL] Drive Leaf EVs from CA, exporting to NC : Low-mileage Leaf EV glut

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

From experience my first trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles was about 20 
hours including fiddling time in Fresno to figure out the EVSE. I can now get 
to San Diego in that same time.  With a 30kw Leaf I think I can reduce the 
time.  This is with Level Three every 60 to 70 miles.  Also I didn't have the 
EVRUS system when I did that.  Now I can go down the I-5 and save time. San 
Francisco,(might hit the Level three at Nissan in Pleasanton) Santa Nella, 
Colinga, Lost Hills, Gorman, Buena Park, Capistrano.  From Capistrano It's 
possible to make it to San Diego. That is 6 or 7 stops depending on how 
adventurous you are.  About 16 hours.  Average speed 55mph.  550 miles.  So If 
you had perfect conditions across country That is 96 Hours driving and 
charging.  But it's not perfect so you could make it to Phoenix or Tuscon with 
some trouble(252 miles from Palm Desert with just level 2) but then it's 
litterly a desert till mid Texas.  Switching from route 10 to 20 it's then 
still bad till the South where there is some charging but It's going to be over 
a week if you drive steady. Lots of 4 hour sessions at level 2.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Lee Hart via EV]

Paul Dove via EV wrote:

Many researchers have been attempting this. MIT claims 100% increase in 
capacity.


It might help to put this in the perspective of research scientists. They look 
at some pair of reactants that look promising for a battery. They can calculate 
the voltage that would be produced. They can calculate how many electrons will 
be stored and released per atom. They know the atomic weight of the reactants, 
and so can figure out the theoretical watthour capacity and watts per kilogram.


So they make a few laboratory tests, on a very small scale. Holy cow! It's twice 
as good as any existing battery! Call the patent attorneys!


But... you haven't taken into account the current-carrying conductors to bring 
the power out. Or the separator, that has to keep the reactants apart (or your 
battery would be a short circuited). Or the packaging. All these add 
considerably to the size and weight.


Then, how are you going to make it? And what will it cost? Things you can do in 
the laboratory by hand can be damnably difficult to scale up.


These are the reasons why no real battery ever comes anywhere close to providing 
its theoretical yield.


--
"I've discovered a way to predict the winner of horse race! First, we assume the 
horses are spheres rolling on a frictionless track..."

--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Paul Dove via EV]

Many researchers have been attempting this. MIT claims 100% increase in 
capacity.

http://news.mit.edu/2017/toward-solid-lithium-batteries-0202

Sent from my iPad

> On May 27, 2017, at 10:44 PM, Alan Arrison via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> The article was about battery researcher John Goodenough.
> 
> What was, in particular, causing my negative disposition was that the article
> 
> stated huge improvements, all simultaneously, of nearly every aspect of 
> battery performance.
> 
> That is just ridiculous, it is hard enough to improve just one performance 
> benchmark at a time.
> 
> If the claims are true, then it really would be a miracle battery.
> 
> Al
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 5/27/2017 12:48 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:
>> >>It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. Goodenough.<<
>> 
>> Totally agree, but what article(s) was Alan reading that caused his 
>> disposition to be negative?
>> 
>> I was curious to try to understand where he was coming from with respect to 
>> what he was reading.
>> 
>>> On 5/26/17, 7:03 PM, Michael Ross wrote:
>>> It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. Goodenough.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org 
>>> <mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>Alan,
>>> 
>>>What article are you referencing?
>>> 
>>>I think I would rephrase your second sentence and make it into the
>>>form of a question:  "Is this another one?"
>>> 
>>>With a question, it opens up avenues to search on the inventor,
>>>his or her reputation, and what needs to be solved to bring it to
>>>market.   It provides a better picture of the situation.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>On 5/25/17, 10:39 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>Over the years I've seen entirely too many "battery
>>>breakthroughs" announced that never got into production.
>>> 
>>>This is another one. :-/
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> -- 
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>>> Thomas A. Edison 
>>> <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
>>> 
>>> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
>>> *Warren Buffet*
>>> 
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>>> (919) 585-6737 Land
>>> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Mobile and 
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Ups Ante With Advanced Solid-State Rechargeable

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

Hi Al,

I appreciate you replying.

I read a long time ago that the maximum potential for Lithium Ion 
batteries was between 1500 and 3000 whr/kg.  If "3 times the energy 
density" of this new battery is based on 150 whr/kg, then they are up in 
the 450 whr/kg area.


Goodenough and Braga are partnering with others to do testing and 
further development which is another good sign in that they have 
something instead of asking for investor money.


Considering their reputation(s),  I think I would give them more benefit 
of your doubt.  There are a lot of scams out there but this does not 
read like another one.


But we will see what the testers and developers determine.

I wish them good fortune.

On 5/27/17, 11:44 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

The article was about battery researcher John Goodenough.

What was, in particular, causing my negative disposition was that the 
article


stated huge improvements, all simultaneously, of nearly every aspect 
of battery performance.


That is just ridiculous, it is hard enough to improve just one 
performance benchmark at a time.


If the claims are true, then it really would be a miracle battery.

Al




On 5/27/2017 12:48 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:
>>It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. 
Goodenough.<<


Totally agree, but what article(s) was Alan reading that caused his 
disposition to be negative?


I was curious to try to understand where he was coming from with 
respect to what he was reading.


On 5/26/17, 7:03 PM, Michael Ross wrote:

It will be very easy, as he stated, to find info about Mr. Goodenough.

On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV 
> wrote:


Alan,

What article are you referencing?

I think I would rephrase your second sentence and make it into the
form of a question:  "Is this another one?"

With a question, it opens up avenues to search on the inventor,
his or her reputation, and what needs to be solved to bring it to
market.   It provides a better picture of the situation.



On 5/25/17, 10:39 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:


Over the years I've seen entirely too many "battery
breakthroughs" announced that never got into production.

This is another one. :-/


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--
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison 



A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  
Mobile and Google Phone


michael.e.r...@gmail.com 





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[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20170528

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-FOMM-to-make-THB400k-11-7k-EVs-new-6M-Thai-plant-td4686902.html
EVLN: FOMM to make THB400k($11.7k) EVs @new $6M Thai plant
FOMM set up a joint venture company in Thailand, FOMM Asia, in February last
year to take care of research and development, manufacturing, and marketing
…

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-200-Kazakhstan-Electromobile-gt-Cheapest-200-dollar-PV-EV-td4686901.html
EVLN: $200 Kazakhstan Electromobile> Cheapest (200-dollar) PV-EV
This Cheapest EV Costs 200 Dollars and Some Tech Details Are Known
Kazakhstan is going to present a new electric car at the EXPO-2017 Astana,
which ... This cheap electric vehicle's headlights are powered and charged
by the ...

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-EM-04-Lina-EV-made-from-bio-based-materials-composites-amp-plastics-ts-50mph-td4686900.html
EVLN: EM-04 Lina EV made from bio-based materials, composites& plastics
ts:50mph
Is an electric car made from plants the future of sustainability?
A group of students  in the Netherlands believe … the solution to
sustainable car manufacturing – an electric vehicle made from bio-based ...

+
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Free-24-7-PV-EVSE-Arrives-in-San-Joaquin-Valley-CA-td4686899.html
Free 24/7 PV-EVSE Arrives in San_Joaquin_Valley-CA
The other space is available to any vehicle owner for free charging all day
– as is ... questions that often hinder the expansion of electric vehicle
infrastructure ...




http://evdl.org/evln/
For all EVLN EV-newswire posts


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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