Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[jim--- via EV]

First, I said (in part):
> there is no way I would buy any car without having driven on. 

Then David Roden replied (in part):
> At one time I would have heartily agreed with this sentiment.  But after 
almost 5 decades of driving more different vehicles (owned, borrowed, 
rented) than I can count, I've discovered that I can learn to live with a 
lot of vehicle characteristics that I despised at first drive.


There is certainly truth to that statement.  However one of the big ones would 
be if I fit in the vehicle.  I'm a fairly large guy, and for example, in my 
wife's Corolla, I practically have to fold myself in half to get in and out of 
it.  Although it's not bad once I'm in, but getting in and out is a royal pain. 
 There is no way that could be my daily vehicle.


73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org


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Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 10 Mar 2019 at 19:27, jim--- via EV wrote:

> there is no way I would buy any car without having driven on. 

At one time I would have heartily agreed with this sentiment.  But after 
almost 5 decades of driving more different vehicles (owned, borrowed, 
rented) than I can count, I've discovered that I can learn to live with a 
lot of vehicle characteristics that I despised at first drive.

True, there are vehicle types and sizes that I just don't care to own.  
FWIW, at the moment, Tesla doesn't offer a vehicle that I'd want.  

But as long as I'm OK with an EV's energy storage and drive system, the 
basic vehicle shape, functionality, and size, and the overall quality of 
construction, I can adjust to almost anything else.  So I think that if I'd 
read up sufficiently on a production EV and had a pretty good idea of what I 
was getting into, I'd be entirely willing to order an EV on the web and have 
it delivered. That would be ESPECIALLY true if the manufacturer offered to 
take it back if I didn't like it.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Good to hear.

It’s possible you will get a premium for your used Volt, as they are 
discontinuing it and has a large following.

Everyone I’ve heard from with a Bolt loves it, and there will be many more 
options out there when you are ready to part with your Bolt. The Tesla is 
setting a high bar, but you may find the market a whole new ball game when you 
are ready.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Mar 10, 2019, at 6:51 PM, Rod Hower  wrote:
> 
> I drove a Model 3 dual motor and single this weekend.  I went to the dealer 
> in Cleveland, OH with a coworker in his Model X dual motor!  That thing is 
> awesome and accelerates like a rocket.  The dual motor Model 3 was very nice 
> and had incredible performance.  Even the single motor Model 3 had excellent 
> performance.  It was nice to drive both vehicles.  I currently have a 2014 
> Chevrolet Volt with 81K miles and it drives as nice as the Tesla, not the 
> same performance, but I still drive most miles on pure electric.  I'm hoping 
> the Volt gets another 100k miles and in 3-4 years I'll get a used Tesla model 
> 3 for a discount.  I was not impressed with the autopilot, I still like to 
> control my vehicle and it was kind of strange giving the vehicle control, I'm 
> not a fan yet.  
> 
> On ‎Sunday‎, ‎March‎ ‎10‎, ‎2019‎ ‎08‎:‎09‎:‎40‎ ‎PM‎ ‎EDT, Mark Abramowitz 
> via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> Well, I won’t argue with someone who thinks that a product has “almost no 
> competition”, though I disagree. But even among the Tesla’s, there is 
> competition.
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
> > On Mar 10, 2019, at 9:08 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> On 3/10/19 9:40 AM, Mark Abramowitz wrote:
> >> 
> >> I do think that there are many normal consumers who will want an EV. For 
> >> some of those, it may be icing on the cake, and not the primary reason for 
> >> the purchase. And for those normal consumers, for the first time ever, 
> >> they have CHOICE! Even among the Tesla’s.
> >> Do I buy a Tesla 3? A Tesla S? A Chevy Bolt? A Toyota Mirai?
> >> So what do people do? They compare them first hand.
> > 
> > At this point in time, the case for buying a Tesla is just overwhelming.  
> > They have almost no competition.
> > 
> >> Given your own state’s experience that prohibits the stores (and I wasn’t 
> >> aware of it was done there), I wonder how sales in your state compares to 
> >> one where there *are* stores.
> > 
> > Perhaps Bruce will want to sus out some sales figures.  While not rivaling 
> > California, I suspect Texas sales figures are pretty high. Especially 
> > considering the lack of incentives that have been offered in California, 
> > Colorado, Georgia, and some other states.  For several years, Tesla has 
> > lobbied hard (and expensively) to get state government to allow direct 
> > sales.  It is my opinion that Tesla has now taken the attitude: "Screw 'em! 
> >  We will kill the dealer sales model".  And I wish them the best.
> > ___
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> > 
> > 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[jim--- via EV]

Here's my two cents on the subject of no dealers.  And I completely agree with 
the description of car dealers as sharks.  This is likely considered an upper 
middle class neighborhood and we drove into the lots in a brand new Nissan 
Rogue (the rental she had after the accident).  We were dressed neatly but 
casual.

A year and a half ago, my wife needed to replace a car after the insurance paid 
for her previous van that had gotten totaled in an accident.  In our city (a 
little less than 2 miles from home), there are four dealerships right next to 
each other - Chevy, Toyota, Ford & Dodge - in that order.  We started at Chevy 
and ended at Dodge.  By the time we finished at the Dodge place, we were tired 
of car shopping and went home for some dinner.  Over dinner, she decided on a 
Toyota Corolla, so we called the dealer and let him know that we would be 
coming back to see him shortly.  We came back up to lease the car for three 
years with the expectation that we will likely buy out the lease after the 
three years.

Everyone knew that we were expecting to lease a car that day.  The attitude in 
the dealerships were very different.  The Chevy guys were the closest to 
stereotypical car dealers.  They were doing everything they could to sell to us 
before we walked off the lot.  Very pushy.  On the other extreme were the Dodge 
that were not at all treating us seriously.  I don't think they expected to 
sell a car that day.  The Toyota guy was a nice as you could imagine and 
treated us completely with respect.  

Within a 15 mile radius, there is dealership for almost every brand of cars 
that are available (excluding a few specialty brands).  The only cars that were 
considered were the ones that had a dealership close to home.  I somewhat 
expected her to want to visit a Nissan dealership because she really liked the 
Rogue that she was renting, but it was 10 miles in the other direction.  In 
case you are wondering, a Tesla model S was not even considered because of 
price and we could not wait for three months after ordering one.  The nearest 
Tesla store is about 20 miles away.

With all that said, there is no way I would buy any car without having driven 
on.  I have said for several years that I want a Model S so bad I can taste it, 
but other than seeing them on the road, I have never touched one.  Even if I 
won the lottery (I don't play), I would not buy one without driving one.  And 
no, I don't know anyone that has one.

Jim Walls
j...@k6ccc.org



-Original Message-
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2019 16:59
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

I agree that we won’t miss car dealers if they go away, as least if the 
experience is as it is now.

We call the gathering of salespeople waiting for you to get out of your car, 
the “sharks”. And there’s always one swimming out to get you.

I was amused when the Honda fleet person that I’ve bought from, who is not a 
shark, referred to the sales people as sharks one day when we chatted while my 
car was getting serviced.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:55 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 3/10/19 10:32 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> At this point in their venture, it seems online sales will be fine. After 
>> all, they have back orders they are struggling to meet, even for the S, I 
>> think.
> 
> It seems to me, for the models now offered at the pricing levels, that Tesla 
> is well balancing supply and demand.  Demand generators will the the $35k 3 
> and the Y.  With many more in the pipeline.  We all watch with interest to 
> see how it plays out.  I am very bullish on Tesla.  A the same time, 
> recognizing the risk.
>> However, at some point when they have real competition and their production 
>> has caught up, they may want to change their mind. Buying cars, while not an 
>> impulse purchase, certainly relies on touchy-feely appeal. Once a buyer sees 
>> a car, and a good sales person realizes the "connection", there's a process 
>> you can't replicate online.
> 
> I doubt that it is quantified, but there certainly seems to be a GREAT deal 
> of dissatisfaction with new car dealers and the car buying experience.  The 
> jury, of course, is still out but personally I don't think new car dealers 
> will be missed.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[Rod Hower via EV]

 I drove a Model 3 dual motor and single this weekend.  I went to the dealer in 
Cleveland, OH with a coworker in his Model X dual motor!  That thing is awesome 
and accelerates like a rocket.  The dual motor Model 3 was very nice and had 
incredible performance.  Even the single motor Model 3 had excellent 
performance.  It was nice to drive both vehicles.  I currently have a 2014 
Chevrolet Volt with 81K miles and it drives as nice as the Tesla, not the same 
performance, but I still drive most miles on pure electric.  I'm hoping the 
Volt gets another 100k miles and in 3-4 years I'll get a used Tesla model 3 for 
a discount.  I was not impressed with the autopilot, I still like to control my 
vehicle and it was kind of strange giving the vehicle control, I'm not a fan 
yet.  

On ‎Sunday‎, ‎March‎ ‎10‎, ‎2019‎ ‎08‎:‎09‎:‎40‎ ‎PM‎ ‎EDT, Mark Abramowitz 
via EV  wrote:  
 
 Well, I won’t argue with someone who thinks that a product has “almost no 
competition”, though I disagree. But even among the Tesla’s, there is 
competition.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Mar 10, 2019, at 9:08 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 3/10/19 9:40 AM, Mark Abramowitz wrote:
>> 
>> I do think that there are many normal consumers who will want an EV. For 
>> some of those, it may be icing on the cake, and not the primary reason for 
>> the purchase. And for those normal consumers, for the first time ever, they 
>> have CHOICE! Even among the Tesla’s.
>> Do I buy a Tesla 3? A Tesla S? A Chevy Bolt? A Toyota Mirai?
>> So what do people do? They compare them first hand.
> 
> At this point in time, the case for buying a Tesla is just overwhelming.  
> They have almost no competition.
> 
>> Given your own state’s experience that prohibits the stores (and I wasn’t 
>> aware of it was done there), I wonder how sales in your state compares to 
>> one where there *are* stores.
> 
> Perhaps Bruce will want to sus out some sales figures.  While not rivaling 
> California, I suspect Texas sales figures are pretty high. Especially 
> considering the lack of incentives that have been offered in California, 
> Colorado, Georgia, and some other states.  For several years, Tesla has 
> lobbied hard (and expensively) to get state government to allow direct sales. 
>  It is my opinion that Tesla has now taken the attitude: "Screw 'em!  We will 
> kill the dealer sales model".  And I wish them the best.
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Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Well, I won’t argue with someone who thinks that a product has “almost no 
competition”, though I disagree. But even among the Tesla’s, there is 
competition.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Mar 10, 2019, at 9:08 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 3/10/19 9:40 AM, Mark Abramowitz wrote:
>> 
>> I do think that there are many normal consumers who will want an EV. For 
>> some of those, it may be icing on the cake, and not the primary reason for 
>> the purchase. And for those normal consumers, for the first time ever, they 
>> have CHOICE! Even among the Tesla’s.
>> Do I buy a Tesla 3? A Tesla S? A Chevy Bolt? A Toyota Mirai?
>> So what do people do? They compare them first hand.
> 
> At this point in time, the case for buying a Tesla is just overwhelming.  
> They have almost no competition.
> 
>> Given your own state’s experience that prohibits the stores (and I wasn’t 
>> aware of it was done there), I wonder how sales in your state compares to 
>> one where there *are* stores.
> 
> Perhaps Bruce will want to sus out some sales figures.  While not rivaling 
> California, I suspect Texas sales figures are pretty high. Especially 
> considering the lack of incentives that have been offered in California, 
> Colorado, Georgia, and some other states.  For several years, Tesla has 
> lobbied hard (and expensively) to get state government to allow direct sales. 
>  It is my opinion that Tesla has now taken the attitude: "Screw 'em!  We will 
> kill the dealer sales model".  And I wish them the best.
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> 
> 

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Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I agree that we won’t miss car dealers if they go away, as least if the 
experience is as it is now.

We call the gathering of salespeople waiting for you to get out of your car, 
the “sharks”. And there’s always one swimming out to get you.

I was amused when the Honda fleet person that I’ve bought from, who is not a 
shark, referred to the sales people as sharks one day when we chatted while my 
car was getting serviced.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:55 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 3/10/19 10:32 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> At this point in their venture, it seems online sales will be fine. After 
>> all, they have back orders they are struggling to meet, even for the S, I 
>> think.
> 
> It seems to me, for the models now offered at the pricing levels, that Tesla 
> is well balancing supply and demand.  Demand generators will the the $35k 3 
> and the Y.  With many more in the pipeline.  We all watch with interest to 
> see how it plays out.  I am very bullish on Tesla.  A the same time, 
> recognizing the risk.
>> However, at some point when they have real competition and their production 
>> has caught up, they may want to change their mind. Buying cars, while not an 
>> impulse purchase, certainly relies on touchy-feely appeal. Once a buyer sees 
>> a car, and a good sales person realizes the "connection", there's a process 
>> you can't replicate online.
> 
> I doubt that it is quantified, but there certainly seems to be a GREAT deal 
> of dissatisfaction with new car dealers and the car buying experience.  The 
> jury, of course, is still out but personally I don't think new car dealers 
> will be missed.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

No, I’m not Tesla unaware, though not familiar with all the details that you 
mention. And I know several very happy owners.  I also have a nearby Tesla 
“store” at a local mall that I like to visit. 

Your own experience would work fine for ME, though my wife may not go for it.

Putting aside the fact that the cars are gorgeous, what excites a guy like me 
is the zero tailpipe emission nature of the car.

But I’m not a normal consumer.

I do think that there are many normal consumers who will want an EV. For some 
of those, it may be icing on the cake, and not the primary reason for the 
purchase. And for those normal consumers, for the first time ever, they have 
CHOICE! Even among the Tesla’s.

Do I buy a Tesla 3? A Tesla S? A Chevy Bolt? A Toyota Mirai?

So what do people do? They compare them first hand.

Given your own state’s experience that prohibits the stores (and I wasn’t aware 
of it was done there), I wonder how sales in your state compares to one where 
there *are* stores.

Again, like everyone else, I hope that I am wrong. If I am not, I think they 
will become a takeover target.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Mar 10, 2019, at 5:18 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 3/9/19 2:12 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> I think that Musk was smoking something.
>> Personally, I would NEVER buy a car without driving it (or at least sit in) 
>> first. The only exception would be for brand new clean technology vehicles 
>> that I *knew* I wanted - think EV1, RAV-4 EV,  Civic GX, Tesla Roadster, 
>> Toyota Mirai, Honda Clarity, etc.
> 
> That sounds similar to Koch FUD.  It is hard for me to believe that you are 
> not familiar with Tesla's path to success and their accomplishments. You know 
> no Tesla owners?
> 
> You ignore several factors, including the bullet proof guarantee Peter 
> describes.  Also, that Tesla has quite successfully already proven a dealer 
> network unnecessary.  Many states, including mine, prohibit manufacturer 
> owned dealerships; in those states, all sales have been and continue to be 
> online. With that experience, Tesla is well aware of the value, or lack of 
> value, of dealers.  As you should know, Tesla has recruited owners to serve 
> as a sales force.  For the most part, owners are quite willing to serve 
> without compensation though in the past they have received some compensation.
> 
> Personal experience:  My first Tesla arrived in front of my house in 2013 on 
> a car transporter.  I had never before SEEN a Tesla, much less driven one.  I 
> was not disappointed.  Indeed, I was thrilled and never regretted the 
> purchase.  I believe we ordered our Leaf in 2010 and took delivery in 2011.  
> Sometime after the reservation, we we offered a pre-purchase test drive in a 
> demo but did not find the schedule convenient.  Our first Leaf drive was in 
> our own.  At the time we were not disappointed.  Again, "thrilled" would be a 
> good descriptor.  Coming from a 150+ mile conversion with an amp-hour 
> counter, I WAS disappointed in the sorry Leaf instrumentation.  But, that was 
> not a deal breaker. It was two years before I discovered that Nissan had so 
> screwed Leaf buyers with a miserable short lived battery which they refused 
> to support.
> 
> 
>> But I’m an air quality guy, and an early adopter of these technologies.
> 
> Which adds to my surprise that you are so Tesla unaware.
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Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[Willie via EV]

On 3/10/19 6:51 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

It is really no relevant since there is a test drive option on the web site and 
in addition Tesla says you can return in if you don’t like it up to 1000 miles.


I'm not certain, but I THINK the deal is you take a test drive OR you 
can return after purchase.


Incidentally, I don't think the change to online only has any impact in 
Texas and other states with similar dealer favoritism.  The potential 
customer has always been able to do test drives.  Two types of Tesla 
brick and mortar facilities here: Service Centers where repair work is 
done and Galleries where potential customers can view new cars, arrange 
test drives, discuss features with Tesla personnel.  Just no arranging 
sales, talking price, or payment.  However, Gallery people can guide the 
potential customers through the ordering process on Tesla web connected 
computers.  I believe Service Centers do not offer test drives.  It is 
VERY easy for a potential customer to make connections to Tesla owners 
for at least demonstration rides.


Typically, Service Centers outnumber Galleries.  Both currently are only 
in larger towns.  Austin, Dallas/FtWorth/Plano, Houston.  I believe San 
Antonio has only a Service Center.


I know from Tesla groups that there are at least a few owners in smaller 
towns.  Lubbock, Texarkana, Victoria, etc.  Maybe 100+ miles from a 
Service Center.  When sufficient demand develops, Tesla tends to put in 
Service Centers at owner clusters.  Isolated (as well as not isolated) 
owners are given extraordinary consideration when service is needed. 
Ranger service even when the car can be driven and towing as well as 
loaners.

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Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[Willie via EV]

On 3/10/19 9:40 AM, Mark Abramowitz wrote:



I do think that there are many normal consumers who will want an EV. For some 
of those, it may be icing on the cake, and not the primary reason for the 
purchase. And for those normal consumers, for the first time ever, they have 
CHOICE! Even among the Tesla’s.

Do I buy a Tesla 3? A Tesla S? A Chevy Bolt? A Toyota Mirai?

So what do people do? They compare them first hand.


At this point in time, the case for buying a Tesla is just overwhelming. 
 They have almost no competition.



Given your own state’s experience that prohibits the stores (and I wasn’t aware 
of it was done there), I wonder how sales in your state compares to one where 
there *are* stores.


Perhaps Bruce will want to sus out some sales figures.  While not 
rivaling California, I suspect Texas sales figures are pretty high. 
Especially considering the lack of incentives that have been offered in 
California, Colorado, Georgia, and some other states.  For several 
years, Tesla has lobbied hard (and expensively) to get state government 
to allow direct sales.  It is my opinion that Tesla has now taken the 
attitude: "Screw 'em!  We will kill the dealer sales model".  And I wish 
them the best.

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Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[Willie via EV]

On 3/10/19 10:32 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
At this point in their venture, it seems online sales will be fine. 
After all, they have back orders they are struggling to meet, even for 
the S, I think.


It seems to me, for the models now offered at the pricing levels, that 
Tesla is well balancing supply and demand.  Demand generators will the 
the $35k 3 and the Y.  With many more in the pipeline.  We all watch 
with interest to see how it plays out.  I am very bullish on Tesla.  A 
the same time, recognizing the risk.


However, at some point when they have real competition and their 
production has caught up, they may want to change their mind. Buying 
cars, while not an impulse purchase, certainly relies on touchy-feely 
appeal. Once a buyer sees a car, and a good sales person realizes the 
"connection", there's a process you can't replicate online.


I doubt that it is quantified, but there certainly seems to be a GREAT 
deal of dissatisfaction with new car dealers and the car buying 
experience.  The jury, of course, is still out but personally I don't 
think new car dealers will be missed.


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Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[Peri Hartman via EV]

At this point in their venture, it seems online sales will be fine. 
After all, they have back orders they are struggling to meet, even for 
the S, I think.


However, at some point when they have real competition and their 
production has caught up, they may want to change their mind. Buying 
cars, while not an impulse purchase, certainly relies on touchy-feely 
appeal. Once a buyer sees a car, and a good sales person realizes the 
"connection", there's a process you can't replicate online.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 10-Mar-19 5:18:13 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only




On 3/9/19 2:12 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

I think that Musk was smoking something.

Personally, I would NEVER buy a car without driving it (or at least sit in) 
first. The only exception would be for brand new clean technology vehicles that 
I *knew* I wanted - think EV1, RAV-4 EV,  Civic GX, Tesla Roadster, Toyota 
Mirai, Honda Clarity, etc.


That sounds similar to Koch FUD.  It is hard for me to believe that you are not 
familiar with Tesla's path to success and their accomplishments. You know no 
Tesla owners?

You ignore several factors, including the bullet proof guarantee Peter 
describes.  Also, that Tesla has quite successfully already proven a dealer 
network unnecessary.  Many states, including mine, prohibit manufacturer owned 
dealerships; in those states, all sales have been and continue to be online. 
With that experience, Tesla is well aware of the value, or lack of value, of 
dealers.  As you should know, Tesla has recruited owners to serve as a sales 
force.  For the most part, owners are quite willing to serve without 
compensation though in the past they have received some compensation.

Personal experience:  My first Tesla arrived in front of my house in 2013 on a car 
transporter.  I had never before SEEN a Tesla, much less driven one.  I was not 
disappointed.  Indeed, I was thrilled and never regretted the purchase.  I believe we 
ordered our Leaf in 2010 and took delivery in 2011.  Sometime after the reservation, we 
we offered a pre-purchase test drive in a demo but did not find the schedule convenient.  
Our first Leaf drive was in our own.  At the time we were not disappointed.  Again, 
"thrilled" would be a good descriptor.  Coming from a 150+ mile conversion with 
an amp-hour counter, I WAS disappointed in the sorry Leaf instrumentation.  But, that was 
not a deal breaker. It was two years before I discovered that Nissan had so screwed Leaf 
buyers with a miserable short lived battery which they refused to support.




But I’m an air quality guy, and an early adopter of these technologies.


Which adds to my surprise that you are so Tesla unaware.
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Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[paul dove via EV]

It is really no relevant since there is a test drive option on the web site and 
in addition Tesla says you can return in if you don’t like it up to 1000 miles. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 9, 2019, at 2:12 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:
> 
> I think that Musk was smoking something.
> 
> Personally, I would NEVER buy a car without driving it (or at least sit in) 
> first. The only exception would be for brand new clean technology vehicles 
> that I *knew* I wanted - think EV1, RAV-4 EV,  Civic GX, Tesla Roadster, 
> Toyota Mirai, Honda Clarity, etc. 
> 
> But I’m an air quality guy, and an early adopter of these technologies. 
> 
> Then again, for the ones that I did get, I did get to drive first. And my 
> guess is that my wife would veto any car purchase without driving it first.
> 
> People like me that would buy a Tesla because of the technology, for the most 
> part already have one.
> 
> We’re now starting to get into the mass market. I think it’s ridiculous to 
> think that many people will buy online, at least to the extent that you need 
> to be a successful company.
> 
> I really hope that I’m wrong, and that Musk has some research to back up this 
> move.
> 
> My 2¢.
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On Mar 1, 2019, at 7:41 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Is Musk right - people are comfortable buying online?
>> Peri
>> 
>> https://www.seattletimes.com/business/tesla-to-close-stores-take-orders-for-a-35000-model-3/
>> 
>> Tesla will sell its electric cars only online as it accelerates its cost 
>> cutting so it can realize its long-running goal of selling a mass-market 
>> sedan for $35,000.
>> ...
>> To save money, Tesla will close many of its stores, but leave some open as 
>> galleries or “information centers” in high-traffic areas.
>> ...
>> The online sales shift will enable Tesla to lower all vehicle prices by 6 
>> percent, on average, including its higher-end Model S and Model X.
>> ...
>> Although he said going online-only was a difficult decision, Musk said he 
>> believes it’s the right one. “It’s 2019,” he said. “People want to buy 
>> things online.”
>> ...
>> Although Musk said he didn’t know for certain, he predicted there’s enough 
>> pent-up demand to sell about 500,000 Model 3s annually at the starting price 
>> of $35,000.
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[Willie via EV]

On 3/9/19 2:12 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

I think that Musk was smoking something.

Personally, I would NEVER buy a car without driving it (or at least sit in) 
first. The only exception would be for brand new clean technology vehicles that 
I *knew* I wanted - think EV1, RAV-4 EV,  Civic GX, Tesla Roadster, Toyota 
Mirai, Honda Clarity, etc.


That sounds similar to Koch FUD.  It is hard for me to believe that you 
are not familiar with Tesla's path to success and their accomplishments. 
You know no Tesla owners?


You ignore several factors, including the bullet proof guarantee Peter 
describes.  Also, that Tesla has quite successfully already proven a 
dealer network unnecessary.  Many states, including mine, prohibit 
manufacturer owned dealerships; in those states, all sales have been and 
continue to be online. With that experience, Tesla is well aware of the 
value, or lack of value, of dealers.  As you should know, Tesla has 
recruited owners to serve as a sales force.  For the most part, owners 
are quite willing to serve without compensation though in the past they 
have received some compensation.


Personal experience:  My first Tesla arrived in front of my house in 
2013 on a car transporter.  I had never before SEEN a Tesla, much less 
driven one.  I was not disappointed.  Indeed, I was thrilled and never 
regretted the purchase.  I believe we ordered our Leaf in 2010 and took 
delivery in 2011.  Sometime after the reservation, we we offered a 
pre-purchase test drive in a demo but did not find the schedule 
convenient.  Our first Leaf drive was in our own.  At the time we were 
not disappointed.  Again, "thrilled" would be a good descriptor.  Coming 
from a 150+ mile conversion with an amp-hour counter, I WAS disappointed 
in the sorry Leaf instrumentation.  But, that was not a deal breaker. 
It was two years before I discovered that Nissan had so screwed Leaf 
buyers with a miserable short lived battery which they refused to support.





But I’m an air quality guy, and an early adopter of these technologies.


Which adds to my surprise that you are so Tesla unaware.
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[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20190311

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-44-Pasadena-CA-superEVSE-750k-revenue4-utility-tp4693011.html
EVLN: 44 Pasadena-CA superEVSE> $750k revenue4 utility
Tesla, Pasadena to install 44 fast-chargers for electric cars atop parking
garage; may be largest charging plaza in western U.S.
Tesla is teaming up with the city of Pasadena to build the largest electric
vehicle super-charging network in the western United States. The project
will sit atop a parking garage near the city’s conv...
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBUvFBm.img


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Fun2Drive-whiff-of-cheeky-camouflaged-Mini-Cooper-SE-EV-tp4693012.html
EVLN: Fun2Drive whiff of cheeky-camouflaged Mini-Cooper-SE EV
Prototype Drive: The Mini Cooper SE Wants to Be the Fun-to-Drive EV
March 5, 2019  While other fully electric small cars were coming and going
around the same time, ... around 120 miles, less than half of what's
available in, say, a Chevrolet Bolt.
https://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2019/03/2021-MINI-SE-Prototype-36.jpg


+ (L3-50,175,350kW EVSE @CircleK ice-stations> 200km:8min)
https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/circle-k-strengthens-electric-vehicle-initiative-with-high-power-charging-stations-from-abb/
Circle K strengthens electric vehicle initiative with high power charging
stations from ABB
March 7, 2019  Circle K has signed a contract with ABB, a pioneering
technology company focused in digital industries, for the supply of Terra
High Power, 175 kW EV chargers in combination with Terra 54 CJG, 50 kW
EV-chargers ... can be upgraded to deliver 350 kW ... allow electric vehicle
batteries to be charged with enough power to travel 200 km in just 8 minutes
of charging ...
...
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/L3-250kW-Tesla-HyperEVSE-V3-activation-raises-the-charging-bar-tp4692978.html
L3-250kW Tesla HyperEVSE-V3 activation> (raises the charging bar)
Mar 04 2019


https://www.carblogindia.com/tork-t6x-bike-launch-confirm/
Tork T6X Electric Bike Spotted Testing – Exclusive Shots
March 6, 2019  The electric bike concept was shown at the 2016 Auto Expo.
The concept photos show that it looks like a sporty commuter motorcycle,
rivaling the likes of 200cc ice ...
https://www.carblogindia.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Tork-T6X-Exclusive-1.jpg


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVent-Tesla-Y-pregnant-model3-unveiling-8pmPDT-3-14-2021-production-tp4693003.html
EVent: Tesla-Y(pregnant model3) unveiling 8pmPDT 3/14> 2021-production
Tesla adds Model Y to website, March 14 unveiling will be livestreamed
March 8, 2019  Tesla updated its website with a new Model Y teaser ahead of
the unveiling scheduled for next week – giving us the best look at the new
electric vehicle to date ... [dated]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azUbCdcAeFM




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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[EVDL] EVLN: Fun2Drive whiff of cheeky-camouflaged Mini-Cooper-SE EV

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://www.automobilemag.com/news/2020-mini-cooper-se-ev-prototype-first-drive-review/
Prototype Drive: The Mini Cooper SE Wants to Be the Fun-to-Drive EV
March 5, 2019  Conner Golden 

[images  
https://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2019/03/2021-MINI-SE-Prototype-36.jpg

https://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2019/03/2021-MINI-SE-Prototype-34.jpg

https://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2019/03/2021-MINI-SE-Prototype-17.jpg

https://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2019/03/2021-MINI-SE-Prototype-38.jpg
]

If anything, the Mini may be hampered by lower range.

t may not really be recognized as such, but the 2008–2010 Mini E was a
historically significant EV. While other fully electric small cars were
coming and going around the same time, Mini’s parent company BMW was using
the Mini E program as a way to test and validate a powertrain that it
intended to use for its i3 project. The i brand was of course launched in
2011, with i3 production starting in in 2013.

For its part, the Mini E was unveiled in late 2008 and the zaptastic little
hatch was soon being leased to coastal U.S. customers by June of 2009 as
part of a test program that would soon expand to France, Germany, the U.K.,
China, and Japan. (In doing so, BMW became the first manufacturer with a
customer-operated fleet of EVs that numbered more than 500 cars.)
Predictably, most Mini Es were crushed when the lease program ended in 2011.

Now the student has become the master’s master. Or something. That’s because
the Mini E is scheduled to return to civilian life in 2020 wearing Mini
Cooper SE badges and with tech plucked from the existing i3 [EV]. While
there are still tests and engineering to be done before the car is formally
unveiled, we recently spent a few miles behind the wheel of a camouflaged
prototype near Munich, Germany.

First impressions: Even in prototype form, the Cooper SE already feels like
a real-deal production car, and all that’s left is some fine-tuning. And
wrapped up in clever black-and-yellow plug-motif camouflage, it’s obvious
this isn’t a reskinned BMW i3. Like the Mini E, the new Cooper SE is based
on the current Cooper S two-door hatchback and is dimensionally identical to
its petrol-powered counterpart. Underneath this familiar bodywork, though,
reside electrified guts, although Mini remains tight-lipped on the important
stuff like range and output.

However, engineers said if we’re really chomping at the bit, the
configuration is closest to the i3 [EV] with the 94-aH battery pack, which
in the BMW is rated at 33 kWh. Presumably, the output of the Mini’s
front-mounted motor is similar, too; it cranks out 170 horsepower and 184
lb-ft of torque in the equivalent i3. Without an itty-bitty range extender
like the i3’s available three-cylinder onboard, it’s possible range may be
capped somewhere around 120 miles, less than half of what’s available in,
say, a Chevrolet Bolt. On the bright side, if these estimates on pack size
and range hold true, plugged into a 50-kWh fast charger, the SE will charge
to 80 percent capacity in a relatively quick-ish 40 minutes.

Beyond the i3 tech, the rest is all Mini. Engineers claim it wasn’t too
difficult to shoehorn the powertrain into the existing Cooper platform, as
they only modified a few points of the subframe and chassis. In place of a
solid, roughly rectangular battery brick as seen in most dedicated EVs, the
SE hides its T-shaped pack under the floor, necessitating special dampers
and a 0.6 inch increase in ride height for clearance. It’s clever packaging
given that it’s in an internal-combustion platform, with a portion of the
battery replacing the fuel tank in the rear. Cargo space—such as it is in a
Mini—is thus unaffected. In fact, structural changes are so minimal, the SE
will be built alongside its gas and diesel counterparts at the brand’s
Oxford production plant.

Charging Across an Asphalt Wasteland

That comes later. We’ve crossed the globe to drive these silent prototypes,
inside of which everything is hidden behind thick, rough-cut sheets of black
felt held fast with gaffer’s tape. Flashes of the characteristically chunky
Mini switchgear nevertheless gleam from the few exposed areas. It’s a
lead-follow scenario through an extensive cone course, and we’re not given
much time to acclimate to either the route or the car before the exercise
ends.

At first whiff, it drives exactly like what you might expect from an
electrified Cooper hatch. The strong initial torque surge is typical for
EVs, though acceleration drops off after the initial yank forward. The
speedometer was obscured, but we estimate the SE pulls readily up to 40 or
50 mph before tapering off. Later, engineers confided the zero-to-62-mph
estimate to be between seven and eight seconds.

We’re happy to report that ditching the S’s fizzy 2.0-liter turbocharged
four-cylinder [ice] has done little to diminish the Mini’s charming handling
dynamics. Even with an estimated 250-plus-pound 

[EVDL] EVLN: 44 Pasadena-CA superEVSE> $750k revenue4 utility

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/tesla-pasadena-to-install-44-fast-chargers-for-electric-cars-atop-parking-garage-may-be-largest-charging-plaza-in-western-us/ar-BBUvzo4
Tesla, Pasadena to install 44 fast-chargers for electric cars atop parking
garage; may be largest charging plaza in western U.S.
March 8, 2019  Steve Scauzillo

[images  / © Provided by Local News RSS EN-US
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBUvHGq.img
Tesla Motors and the city of Pasadena want to add 44 electric car chargers
to this parking structure on the northwest corner of Marengo Avenue and East
Green Street. They want to create The Marengo Charge Plaza here, on the
rooftop level shown half-empty on Wednesday, March 6, 2019. (Photo by Steve
Scauzillo/SCNG) 

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBUvFBm.img
In this June 24, 2017, file photo, a Telsa Model 3 car recharges at a Tesla
charging station at Cochran Commons shopping center in Charlotte, N.C. Tesla
plans on building 24 fast chargers that can give a car 80 percent charge in
30 minutes atop a Pasadena parking garage. (AP Photo/Chuck Burton)

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBUvKbr.img
a car parked in a parking lot: The rooftop level of the Marengo Avenue
parking garage between Old Pasadena and Paseo Colorado, looking northwest on
Wednesday, March 6, 2019. Soon to become one of the largest electric
charging groupings in the country. (Photo by Steve Scauzillo/SCNG).  The
rooftop level of the Marengo Avenue parking garage between Old Pasadena and
Paseo Colorado, looking northwest on Wednesday, March 6, 2019. Soon to
become one of the largest electric charging groupings in the country. (Photo
by Steve Scauzillo/SCNG)
]

Tesla is teaming up with the city of Pasadena to build the largest electric
vehicle super-charging network in the western United States.

The project will sit atop a parking garage near the city’s convention center
and two major shopping districts.

The leading seller of electric cars, also known for its banks of exclusive
charging stations along Interstate 5, will install 24 fast-charging plugs
and lay the conduit for an additional 20 fast-chargers for other EVs on the
roof level of a city-owned parking garage at 155 E. Green St., located on
the northwest corner of Marengo Avenue and Green, according to Margie Otto,
spokesperson for Pasadena Water and Power.

Completion of the project — expected by the end of this year  — will
establish 44 Direct Current Fast Chargers (DCFC) in one place, creating the
largest public-access fast charger grouping in any urban area in the west
coast and possibly in the nation, Otto said.

A DCFC plug will provide 80 percent of an electric car’s battery power in
less than 30 minutes, she said. Charging rates have yet to be determined.

“We know it is an emerging trend,” Otto said of electric car ownership in
California. “Part of getting consumers to jump on board with electric
vehicles is making sure they have confidence the infrastructure is going to
be there.”

Besides installing its own fast-chargers, Tesla has agreed to provide the
electrical  infrastructure to enable the Pasadena utility to install 20
city-owned fast chargers, a $140,000 capital cost savings, according to a
report from PWP submitted to the Municipal Services Committee on Feb. 26.

The Marengo Charging Plaza will be placed on the rooftop level, which is at
best half full during the daytime. None of the spaces to be used for
electric cars are currently assigned, the report said. Otto said the
charging area would occupy about one quarter of the spaces on that level.
The entire garage proves 715 parking spots on five levels, including Level 2
chargers on the lower level.

“I think it is phenomenal that Pasadena is doing this. It will be a real
quill in their hat,” said Patrick Terrill, a resident of Atwater Village who
is working with the city of Los Angeles to add fast chargers. He said
Burbank’s Town Center Mall has 20 DCFCs on the rooftop of a public parking
garage.

Pasadena planners say the Marengo Charging Plaza would attract EV drivers to
eat lunch or dinner or shop at the Paseo Colorado shopping mall and the Old
Pasadena retail district while waiting for their charge. The structure also
is very close to the Pasadena Convention Center, which hosts numerous events
for out-of-town visitors and residents.

The city’s utility estimates it will see $500,000 to $750,000 in additional
revenues from electrical use just from the Tesla-only chargers.

Otto said the unique charging plaza coincides with the city’s efforts to
attract more zero-emission vehicles. Since last year, the city has awarded
500 rebates (ranging from $250-$750) to those residents who bought or leased
an electric vehicle, Otto said.

The city wants to reduce both greenhouse gases and smog-forming emissions as
part of its climate action plan. The city also supports former Gov. Jerry
Brown’s goal to reach 250,000 public charging 

Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

As I understand it, Tesla will drop off the car of your build at your
address to let you test drive it for a week. If you don’t like it, they’ll
come on by and pick it up.  Otherwise, it’s yours.

You don’t go to the dealer, the dealer comes to you.  Yeah, it’s
different.  Very different.  It’s going to take some getting used to
especially for us who grew up and have bought several cars the traditional
way.

Still, I’ve been seriously considering buying a Tesla because of their Long
Range models, charging times, and charging network.  How am I going to do
that now?

It’s going to separate the serious buyer from the not so serious to
frivolous car tester.

I hope they succeed.

Peter

On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 10:40 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> I think that Musk was smoking something.
>
> Personally, I would NEVER buy a car without driving it (or at least sit
> in) first. The only exception would be for brand new clean technology
> vehicles that I *knew* I wanted - think EV1, RAV-4 EV,  Civic GX, Tesla
> Roadster, Toyota Mirai, Honda Clarity, etc.
>
> But I’m an air quality guy, and an early adopter of these technologies.
>
> Then again, for the ones that I did get, I did get to drive first. And my
> guess is that my wife would veto any car purchase without driving it first.
>
> People like me that would buy a Tesla because of the technology, for the
> most part already have one.
>
> We’re now starting to get into the mass market. I think it’s ridiculous to
> think that many people will buy online, at least to the extent that you
> need to be a successful company.
>
> I really hope that I’m wrong, and that Musk has some research to back up
> this move.
>
> My 2¢.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Mar 1, 2019, at 7:41 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > Is Musk right - people are comfortable buying online?
> > Peri
> >
> >
> https://www.seattletimes.com/business/tesla-to-close-stores-take-orders-for-a-35000-model-3/
> >
> > Tesla will sell its electric cars only online as it accelerates its cost
> cutting so it can realize its long-running goal of selling a mass-market
> sedan for $35,000.
> > ...
> > To save money, Tesla will close many of its stores, but leave some open
> as galleries or “information centers” in high-traffic areas.
> > ...
> > The online sales shift will enable Tesla to lower all vehicle prices by
> 6 percent, on average, including its higher-end Model S and Model X.
> > ...
> > Although he said going online-only was a difficult decision, Musk said
> he believes it’s the right one. “It’s 2019,” he said. “People want to buy
> things online.”
> > ...
> > Although Musk said he didn’t know for certain, he predicted there’s
> enough pent-up demand to sell about 500,000 Model 3s annually at the
> starting price of $35,000.
> > -- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20190301/e7abb83d/attachment.html
> >
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
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>
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