[EVDL] GM cut 4k ice jobs> hiring4 EV jobs, No one left unscathed, 'New-collar' workers

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2019/11/19/gm-hiring-electric-vehicles/2574715001/
After cutting 4,000 jobs, GM is hiring. But not for traditional
gasoline-powered vehicles.
Nov. 19, 2019  Jamie L. LaReau

[images  
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2019/11/13/PDTF/33a89113-5219-4378-9202-1f786c493bd9-Blazer_donation.jpg
Embry-Riddle Student Alex Basset, runs some temporary electrical wiring
before taking the EcoCar 4 out for initial road testing outside the Green
Garage at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical's, College of Engineering, on Daytona
Beach Campus, October 25, 2019. The EcoCar4 team will convert the AWD Chevy
Blazer into a hybrid. (Photo: David Massey/Embry-Riddle)

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2019/03/21/PDTF/804abd4e-d1fe-43f5-ba97-2796996f715b-GMOrionEnvironmentalImpact01.jpg
GM's Orion Assembly builds the all-electric Chevrolet Bolt used for testing
its GM Cruise self-driving fleet. (Photo: General Motors)
]

Late last month, General Motors gave a 2019 Chevrolet Blazer SUV to 100
college students at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach,
Florida.

The car wasn't for a joy ride. It's to help GM find its future workforce.

The students at Embry-Riddle will compete with 11 other schools to transform
a traditional powertrain engine to run on hybrid power and ultimately be
self-driving.

"That is huge for us to know if people have the capabilities," said Ken
Kelzer, GM's vice president of global vehicle components. "We hire people
from those programs." 

And GM is hiring despite slashing thousands of white-collar jobs earlier
this year. The automaker is creating a new workforce that will change in
size and composition as GM prepares to spend more money over the next five
years to develop electric and self-driving vehicles than it will spend on
internal combustion vehicles.

That means many GM jobs at every level will change, with many new jobs
demanding a whole new skill set. 

'No one left unscathed'
Earlier this year, GM cut some 4,000 salaried jobs in North America as part
of a restructuring plan that also included production changes that idled
three U.S. factories: Lordstown Assembly in Ohio and transmission plants in
Warren and Baltimore. GM said the plan will result in a $4 billion to $4.5
billion savings by year-end 2020. 

“We had cuts in all areas, so no one was left unscathed,” Kelzer said. “But
the majority of the cuts were in the traditional internal combustion area.”

GM has been significantly realigning its workforce composition and the
skills engineers will need, said Sam Abuelsamid, principal analyst at
Navigant Research in metro Detroit.

“We saw a significant reduction, especially in people working in powertrain,
traditional engineering," said Abuelsamid. "It hasn’t really kicked in on
the hourly side yet, but it has on the salary side, and that’s a leading
indicator of what’s going on.”

Navigant Research predicts 15% of global car sales will be electric vehicles
by 2030. Automakers such as GM are pursuing electric because of regulatory
concerns, especially in China, the world's largest car market, which is
pushing electrification, said Abuelsamid. 

Abuelsamid said 15% is not a big number, but the impact on workers will be
big, particularly at engine and transmission plants.

Over the next decade each engine or transmission plant that gets replaced by
an electric motor or battery plant may see up to a 75% reduction from
today's manufacturing jobs or morph into new blue-collar jobs requiring
different skills as electric vehicle production increases, said Abuelsamid.

“These electric vehicles will have simple, single-speed reduction gears.
It’s a simple one-speed transmission rather than a 10-speed," said
Abuelsamid. "The engine assembly is a fairly complex process today. But for
batteries and electric motors, the assembly process is highly automated. So
you’ll have a lot fewer people involved in the engine and powertrains."

That partly accounts for GM's idling two transmission plants, said
Abuelsamid.

Here's how Abuelsamid sees it breaking down:

Hourly workforce: Skilled trades such as electricians and millwrights will
be less affected than assembly line jobs, which will be reduced. Powertrain
and engine plant jobs likely to go away.

Salaried workforce: Electrical engineering, software development, data
sciences and information technology skills will be more in demand;
mechanical engineering less so.
Shrinking workforce

Kelzer said GM will likely eliminate some more salaried jobs in the
powertrain or internal combustion areas in the years ahead. There will be "a
shift in the employment demographics," he said. 

Also, GM expects to gradually reduce the total salaried workforce over the
next decade because electric battery development requires fewer engineers
than gasoline engine design does, Kelzer said ...

"When you go electric, there are some efficiencies you can work on," said
Kelzer. "And, you can use batteries across multiple 

Re: [EVDL] MIT: Why the electric-car revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[Paul Compton via EV]

The materials in a Lead acid battery are up to 98% recyclable.

That is not same as 98% of Lead acid batteries being recycled.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 21:57, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
>
>  The ~50% recycled percentage is steady-state. Same for 80% of raw
> lead going into battery production. These percentages have not changed
> substantially for 50 years. (The percentage of raw lead going into
> battery production has actually grown to more than 85% in recent years.)
>
>  In order for lead-acid battery recycling to be 95%, there would
> have to be 25% growth in the number of batteries in service (or storage,
> or whatever.) This is a _lot_ of batteries. _*One quarter*_ of _*all*_
> lead acid batteries produced every year! Two million tons of batteries.
>
>  There is simply no way that "nearly 100%" of lead acid batteries
> are recycled. It is a good story, but if you simply look at the lead
> industries own figures, it doesn't hold water.
>
> https://www.ila-lead.org/lead-facts/lead-production--statistics
> https://www.ila-lead.org/lead-facts/lead-uses--statistics
>
>  The key is that the percentage has remained the same for many many
> years. There aren't non-polluting "reservoirs", (like hoards of used
> batteries in homes,) that are building steady for years and years at
> 25%. Folks /eventually/ do "something" with dead lead-acid batteries.
> The truth is, many get tossed in the land fill, especially the smaller
> ones, like UPS batteries, emergency light batteries, alarm batteries, etc.
>
>  Bill D.
>
> On 11/21/2019 9:26 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:
> > > More to the point, lead-acid batteries are not recycled at "nearly
> > 100%" as
> > > claimed. If you look at the numbers provided by the lead industry
> > itself, at
> > > _least_ 30% of them escape the recycling stream
> >
> > Hopefully, whoever does this sort of bean counting took into account
> > the number of batteries still in useful service, and adjusted for
> > those that are still installed in inoperable or stored equipment and
> > vehicles that will eventually return them for recycling.
> >
> > There is also a portion of lead, which includes batteries, that gets
> > shunted to other uses outside the recycling stream. Private reuse of
> > lead for ammunition, nautical ballast, etc might account for some of
> > the discrepancy. I suspect that there may also be some hoarding of
> > lead for speculative purposes, and by preppers who worry about the
> > zombie apocalypse
> >
> > With commodity prices being what they are, and active gathering and
> > recycling of scrap, including non-ferrous metals, by a wide selection
> > of citizenry, I can't see 30% of batteries being dumped in rivers, etc.
> >
> > Home Power magazine did a couple of in-depth, first-person articles on
> > lead battery recycling some years back. While not absolutely
> > definitive, it represents some independent research on the subject. If
> > anyone is interested, I can rip and post some PDF's or dig up links to
> > the articles on the HP web site.
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> > INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> 
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>


-- 
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] MIT: Why the electric-car revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[Bill Dube via EV]

    The ~50% recycled percentage is steady-state. Same for 80% of raw 
lead going into battery production. These percentages have not changed 
substantially for 50 years. (The percentage of raw lead going into 
battery production has actually grown to more than 85% in recent years.)


    In order for lead-acid battery recycling to be 95%, there would 
have to be 25% growth in the number of batteries in service (or storage, 
or whatever.) This is a _lot_ of batteries. _*One quarter*_ of _*all*_ 
lead acid batteries produced every year! Two million tons of batteries.


    There is simply no way that "nearly 100%" of lead acid batteries 
are recycled. It is a good story, but if you simply look at the lead 
industries own figures, it doesn't hold water.


https://www.ila-lead.org/lead-facts/lead-production--statistics
https://www.ila-lead.org/lead-facts/lead-uses--statistics

    The key is that the percentage has remained the same for many many 
years. There aren't non-polluting "reservoirs", (like hoards of used 
batteries in homes,) that are building steady for years and years at 
25%. Folks /eventually/ do "something" with dead lead-acid batteries. 
The truth is, many get tossed in the land fill, especially the smaller 
ones, like UPS batteries, emergency light batteries, alarm batteries, etc.


    Bill D.

On 11/21/2019 9:26 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:
> More to the point, lead-acid batteries are not recycled at "nearly 
100%" as
> claimed. If you look at the numbers provided by the lead industry 
itself, at

> _least_ 30% of them escape the recycling stream

Hopefully, whoever does this sort of bean counting took into account 
the number of batteries still in useful service, and adjusted for 
those that are still installed in inoperable or stored equipment and 
vehicles that will eventually return them for recycling.


There is also a portion of lead, which includes batteries, that gets 
shunted to other uses outside the recycling stream. Private reuse of 
lead for ammunition, nautical ballast, etc might account for some of 
the discrepancy. I suspect that there may also be some hoarding of 
lead for speculative purposes, and by preppers who worry about the 
zombie apocalypse


With commodity prices being what they are, and active gathering and 
recycling of scrap, including non-ferrous metals, by a wide selection 
of citizenry, I can't see 30% of batteries being dumped in rivers, etc.


Home Power magazine did a couple of in-depth, first-person articles on 
lead battery recycling some years back. While not absolutely 
definitive, it represents some independent research on the subject. If 
anyone is interested, I can rip and post some PDF's or dig up links to 
the articles on the HP web site.

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)





-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] MIT: Why the electric-car revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

> More to the point, lead-acid batteries are not recycled at "nearly 100%" as
> claimed. If you look at the numbers provided by the lead industry 
itself, at

> _least_ 30% of them escape the recycling stream

Hopefully, whoever does this sort of bean counting took into account 
the number of batteries still in useful service, and adjusted for 
those that are still installed in inoperable or stored equipment and 
vehicles that will eventually return them for recycling.


There is also a portion of lead, which includes batteries, that gets 
shunted to other uses outside the recycling stream. Private reuse of 
lead for ammunition, nautical ballast, etc might account for some of 
the discrepancy. I suspect that there may also be some hoarding of 
lead for speculative purposes, and by preppers who worry about the 
zombie apocalypse


With commodity prices being what they are, and active gathering and 
recycling of scrap, including non-ferrous metals, by a wide selection 
of citizenry, I can't see 30% of batteries being dumped in rivers, etc.


Home Power magazine did a couple of in-depth, first-person articles 
on lead battery recycling some years back. While not absolutely 
definitive, it represents some independent research on the subject. 
If anyone is interested, I can rip and post some PDF's or dig up 
links to the articles on the HP web site. 


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 21 Nov 2019 at 8:09, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

> More to the point, lead-acid batteries are not recycled at "nearly 100%" as
> claimed. If you look at the numbers provided by the lead industry itself, at
> _least_ 30% of them escape the recycling stream

No worries.  Ignoring corrections and endlessly repeating their alternative 
facts works just fine for fascists and climate deniers, so I see no reason 
to change our faith in the near-perfection of lead battery recycling.  

I just checked my sources.  Yup, nearly 100%.  I call that success.  



David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[Bill Dube via EV]

An important point is that li-Ion batteries need to be recycled one 
tenth (or perhaps twentieth) as often as lead-acid. Even at the end of 
their life in a car, unlike lead-acid, they have life left in them for 
alternative uses. They slowly fade away instead of falling off a cliff.


These two facts add up to make recycling of li-ion batteries much less 
of a problem than you might think at first. Indeed, you should recycle, 
but if only 10% of the lead-acid batteries escape the recycling stream, 
you are ahead of the game because li-ion batteries last at least 10 
times longer. Plus, lead is toxic to the environment, while little in 
li-ion batteries is toxic.


More to the point, lead-acid batteries are not recycled at "nearly 100%" 
as claimed. If you look at the numbers provided by the lead industry 
itself, at _least_ 30% of them escape the recycling stream.


Lead-acid batteries use 80% of all the raw lead produced every year. 
However, only 50% of the raw lead comes from recycled lead, the other 
50% is mined. (This percentage has been constant for many years.) This 
means that 30% of batteries escape the recycling stream.


I suspect that the "95% recycled" number comes from the lead-acid 
batteries that make it through the gate of the recycling facility. It 
has to. If they truly reached these numbers, they wouldn't need to mine 
much lead at all, not 50% of what is needed.


Bill D.

On 11/21/2019 5:18 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

I doubt many people are recycling laptop and phone batteries.


That's because it's nearly impossible to do so. Many of the places 
that take small consumer batteries for recycling are not taking 
lithiums, due to the (real or perceived) risk of fire.



But car batteries ? I assume nearly 100% are getting repurposed, at
least after a modest amount of time. And, in the future, probably
recycled.


I worry that industry won't recycle lithiums until they are *forced* 
to do it. As long as it's even 1 cent cheaper to buy them new, and 
landfill the waste, they will.


Lee



___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[paul dove via EV]

In addition,
There are no problems recycling them. there is nothing toxic in a Lithium Ion 
battery. Alcohol, aluminum, plastic, copper and some traces metals and a small 
amount of lithium salt. I have taken them apart and anyone that tries to say 
these are a recycling problem are just making it up. 
 

On Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 9:41:37 AM CST, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I doubt many people are recycling laptop and phone batteries. But car 
batteries ? I assume nearly 100% are getting repurposed, at least after 
a modest amount of time. And, in the future, probably recycled. There 
just aren't that many going to the junk yards yet to have any reliable 
data.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 20-Nov-19 7:19:30 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot 
longer than expected

>EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>>On 20 Nov 2019 at 3:39, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>
>>>  I did a little searching and the *current* average for a complete
>>>pack is about $200 per kWh.
>>
>>For another data point, it's 8000 Euros (about US$8800) to buy the factory
>>52kWh battery for a 2020 Renault Zoe (AFAIK still Europe's largest-selling
>>EV).  That's $169/kWh.  The 2019 Zoe battery was 42kWh and cost 9000 Euros
>>($235/kWh).
>>
>>I'm sure that at some point, lithium batteries will probably reach the stage
>>that lead batteries have, where they're effectively commodities whose price
>>depends mostly on that of the raw materials going into them.  I don't see a
>>way to predict when that might happen.
>>
>>Also, as I and others have pointed out in this thread, there are other EV
>>costs besides the battery that haven't yet been significantly reduced.
>
>Another point: Lead-acid is so cheap because virtually all the materials get 
>recycled.
>
>At present, the large majority of lithium batteries are *not* recycled. That's 
>bound to drive up the cost of materials.
>
>And you know how it goes; we won't recycle until we *have* to. It took laws in 
>the US and Europe to force companies to recycle. They'd much rather get their 
>materials from some 3rd world country with slave labor wages and no 
>environmental laws. :-(
>
>Lee
>-- ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make
>better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep
>you in business? -- Hunter Cressall
>--
>Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>___
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
>INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20191120/9aa93578/attachment.html>
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[paul dove via EV]

If you discharge them first they don't have any energy in order to catch fire.
 

On Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 10:19:44 AM CST, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> I doubt many people are recycling laptop and phone batteries.

That's because it's nearly impossible to do so. Many of the places that 
take small consumer batteries for recycling are not taking lithiums, due 
to the (real or perceived) risk of fire.

> But car batteries ? I assume nearly 100% are getting repurposed, at
> least after a modest amount of time. And, in the future, probably
> recycled.

I worry that industry won't recycle lithiums until they are *forced* to 
do it. As long as it's even 1 cent cheaper to buy them new, and landfill 
the waste, they will.

Lee
-- 
ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make
better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep
you in business? -- Hunter Cressall
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20191120/a3b046c7/attachment.html>
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[Lee Hart via EV]

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

I doubt many people are recycling laptop and phone batteries.


That's because it's nearly impossible to do so. Many of the places that 
take small consumer batteries for recycling are not taking lithiums, due 
to the (real or perceived) risk of fire.



But car batteries ? I assume nearly 100% are getting repurposed, at
least after a modest amount of time. And, in the future, probably
recycled.


I worry that industry won't recycle lithiums until they are *forced* to 
do it. As long as it's even 1 cent cheaper to buy them new, and landfill 
the waste, they will.


Lee
--
ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make
better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep
you in business? -- Hunter Cressall
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I doubt many people are recycling laptop and phone batteries. But car 
batteries ? I assume nearly 100% are getting repurposed, at least after 
a modest amount of time. And, in the future, probably recycled. There 
just aren't that many going to the junk yards yet to have any reliable 
data.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 20-Nov-19 7:19:30 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot 
longer than expected



EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 20 Nov 2019 at 3:39, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:


  I did a little searching and the *current* average for a complete
pack is about $200 per kWh.


For another data point, it's 8000 Euros (about US$8800) to buy the factory
52kWh battery for a 2020 Renault Zoe (AFAIK still Europe's largest-selling
EV).  That's $169/kWh.  The 2019 Zoe battery was 42kWh and cost 9000 Euros
($235/kWh).

I'm sure that at some point, lithium batteries will probably reach the stage
that lead batteries have, where they're effectively commodities whose price
depends mostly on that of the raw materials going into them.  I don't see a
way to predict when that might happen.

Also, as I and others have pointed out in this thread, there are other EV
costs besides the battery that haven't yet been significantly reduced.


Another point: Lead-acid is so cheap because virtually all the materials get 
recycled.

At present, the large majority of lithium batteries are *not* recycled. That's 
bound to drive up the cost of materials.

And you know how it goes; we won't recycle until we *have* to. It took laws in 
the US and Europe to force companies to recycle. They'd much rather get their 
materials from some 3rd world country with slave labor wages and no 
environmental laws. :-(

Lee
-- ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make
better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep
you in business? -- Hunter Cressall
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)



___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Nikola claims 4x-energy, 2k-cycle, 50% cheaper li-ion

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Apparently they are located in Phoenix. I presume they will do hot 
weather testing :)
If this isn't vaporware, that will be a great improvement, e.g. a 100kWh 
battery at 200kg. No mention of size density but I would assume it's 
also reduced by about the same proportion. The weak spot will by the 
number of cycles. No mention on depth of discharge or charge, but 2000 
doesn't sound so great (6 years for heavy usage), especially compared to 
Tesla who appears to be much higher than that.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 20-Nov-19 6:00:10 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Nikola claims 4x-energy, 2k-cycle, 50% cheaper 
li-ion





https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/19/nikola-pushes-deeper-into-battery-electric-vehicles-with-next-generation-battery-tech/
Nikola Pushes Deeper Into Battery Electric Vehicles With Next Generation
Battery Tech
November 19th, 2019  Kyle Field

[images  / Kyle Field
https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019/04/nikola-motor-company-world-2019-two-red-3-trevor-milton.jpg
Nikola Motor Company CEO Trevor Milton unveiling the Nikola Two at Nikola
World 2019

https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019/08/2018.09-spi-aneheim-KYLE-samsung-sdi-energy-storage-battery-pack-module-cells-batteries-lithium-ion-4-18650.jpg
Nikola’s new battery tech challenges lithium-ion’s supremacy in the battle
to power our vehicles, homes, and businesses
]

The Nikola Motor Company dropped a bomb on the electric vehicle industry
today with news of a pending acquisition of a team that has developed next
generation battery technology. The news comes with claims of a cathode with
4 times the energy density of today’s lithium-ion cells, lasts for 2,000
cycles, and at a cell cost of 50% less than today’s lithium-ion cells.

If Nikola can bring a battery with these specs to market and produce them at
scale, the implications to not just the world of electric vehicles, but to
the entire automotive industry and to the world of stationary energy storage
would be profound. But that’s a big if. Thanks to unprecedented investment
in battery research and design, prototype batteries and breakthroughs in the
lab happen nearly every week, but they don’t always translate into real
world improvements.

In this case, Nikola’s outspoken CEO Trevor Milton feels the company has
found the real deal with news that it has filed a letter of intent to
acquire the team that developed the new tech. The acquisition is not
finalized at this point, but Milton hopes to announce more details
surrounding the breakthrough at Nikola World next fall.

For now, here’s what we know:

Cathode with 4x the energy density of lithium-ion

Prototype achieved 2,000 cycles in testing with “acceptable” end-of-life
performance

Cost 50% less to produce next generation cells per kWh compared to
lithium-ion

Weighs 40% less than same capacity of lithium-ion cells

Prototype cell achieved 500 watt-hours capacity

“This is the biggest advancement we have seen in the battery world,” said
Trevor Milton, CEO, Nikola Motor Company.  “We are not talking about small
improvements; we are talking about doubling your cell phone battery
capacity.  We are talking about doubling the range of BEVs and
hydrogen-electric vehicles around the world.”

Batteries are the glue that holds the worlds of electric vehicles,
renewables, and distributed generation together. While lithium-ion batteries
have continued to improve in energy density and cost at a steady pace in
recent years, the broader industry has had its sights set on the next
generation battery cell technology. Nikola’s new team has developed a
prototype cell that delivers on the promises of future battery technologies,
with an energy density of 1,100 watt-hours per kilogram for the material and
500 watt-hours per kilogram when rolled into a cell.

Bringing 500 watt-hour cells to market would be a nice bump in energy
density and at a lower cost than batteries going into production electric
vehicles today. The path to market for the new battery tech is not going to
be an easy one as Nikola will need to build or license manufacturing
capacity for the new cells. It is exactly this bump in the road that
mainstream automakers are wrestling with now as the Chinese battery
manufacturing engine continues to spool up to fill the need. Indeed, to meet
its needs at its Shanghai Gigafactory, even Tesla contracted out the supply
of battery cells.

Nikola plans to share the intellectual property (IP) for the new batteries
with OEMs that contribute to a new battery consortium. The move has the
potential to catapult not only Nikola, but the world of automobiles into
electric vehicles at a rapid clip. It shows that Nikola sees the need for
battery cell standards that stretch beyond its walls and into the broader
industry to achieve the manufacturing scale required to bring the cost down
for everyone.

[image]  Nikola has big plans for 2020 as it continues to add scope to its
already 

Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 20 Nov 2019 at 3:39, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:


  I did a little searching and the *current* average for a complete
pack is about $200 per kWh.


For another data point, it's 8000 Euros (about US$8800) to buy the factory
52kWh battery for a 2020 Renault Zoe (AFAIK still Europe's largest-selling
EV).  That's $169/kWh.  The 2019 Zoe battery was 42kWh and cost 9000 Euros
($235/kWh).

I'm sure that at some point, lithium batteries will probably reach the stage
that lead batteries have, where they're effectively commodities whose price
depends mostly on that of the raw materials going into them.  I don't see a
way to predict when that might happen.

Also, as I and others have pointed out in this thread, there are other EV
costs besides the battery that haven't yet been significantly reduced.


Another point: Lead-acid is so cheap because virtually all the materials 
get recycled.


At present, the large majority of lithium batteries are *not* recycled. 
That's bound to drive up the cost of materials.


And you know how it goes; we won't recycle until we *have* to. It took 
laws in the US and Europe to force companies to recycle. They'd much 
rather get their materials from some 3rd world country with slave labor 
wages and no environmental laws. :-(


Lee
--
ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make
better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep
you in business? -- Hunter Cressall
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

[EVDL] battery: koch-koolaid= bs: ... endure longer than expected

[brucedp5 via EV]

 As Lee pointed out:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-status-a-running-start-to-micro-moment-satiate-tp4695559p4695562.html

 I see a whole lot of battery news items. Some read purely as inve$tmet
trolling, others as 
vaporware ... but I felt it was important to post this one early in
reference to this thread:

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Nikola-claims-4x-energy-2k-cycle-50-cheaper-li-ion-tp4695719.html
EVLN: Nikola claims 4x-energy, 2k-cycle, 50% cheaper li-ion
Nikola Pushes Deeper Into Battery Electric Vehicles With Next Generation
Battery Tech
November 19th, 2019  The Nikola Motor ... claims of a lithium-ion cathode
with 4 times the energy density of today’s lithium-ion cells, lasts for
2,000 cycles, and at a cell cost of 50% less than today’s lithium-ion cells
... with an energy density of 1,100 watt-hours per kilogram for the material
and 500 watt-hours per kilogram when rolled into a cell ...
https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019/04/nikola-motor-company-world-2019-two-red-3-trevor-milton.jpg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://www.evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

[EVDL] EVLN: Nikola claims 4x-energy, 2k-cycle, 50% cheaper li-ion

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/19/nikola-pushes-deeper-into-battery-electric-vehicles-with-next-generation-battery-tech/
Nikola Pushes Deeper Into Battery Electric Vehicles With Next Generation
Battery Tech
November 19th, 2019  Kyle Field

[images  / Kyle Field
https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019/04/nikola-motor-company-world-2019-two-red-3-trevor-milton.jpg
Nikola Motor Company CEO Trevor Milton unveiling the Nikola Two at Nikola
World 2019

https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019/08/2018.09-spi-aneheim-KYLE-samsung-sdi-energy-storage-battery-pack-module-cells-batteries-lithium-ion-4-18650.jpg
Nikola’s new battery tech challenges lithium-ion’s supremacy in the battle
to power our vehicles, homes, and businesses
]

The Nikola Motor Company dropped a bomb on the electric vehicle industry
today with news of a pending acquisition of a team that has developed next
generation battery technology. The news comes with claims of a cathode with
4 times the energy density of today’s lithium-ion cells, lasts for 2,000
cycles, and at a cell cost of 50% less than today’s lithium-ion cells.

If Nikola can bring a battery with these specs to market and produce them at
scale, the implications to not just the world of electric vehicles, but to
the entire automotive industry and to the world of stationary energy storage
would be profound. But that’s a big if. Thanks to unprecedented investment
in battery research and design, prototype batteries and breakthroughs in the
lab happen nearly every week, but they don’t always translate into real
world improvements.

In this case, Nikola’s outspoken CEO Trevor Milton feels the company has
found the real deal with news that it has filed a letter of intent to
acquire the team that developed the new tech. The acquisition is not
finalized at this point, but Milton hopes to announce more details
surrounding the breakthrough at Nikola World next fall.

For now, here’s what we know:

Cathode with 4x the energy density of lithium-ion

Prototype achieved 2,000 cycles in testing with “acceptable” end-of-life
performance

Cost 50% less to produce next generation cells per kWh compared to
lithium-ion

Weighs 40% less than same capacity of lithium-ion cells

Prototype cell achieved 500 watt-hours capacity

“This is the biggest advancement we have seen in the battery world,” said
Trevor Milton, CEO, Nikola Motor Company.  “We are not talking about small
improvements; we are talking about doubling your cell phone battery
capacity.  We are talking about doubling the range of BEVs and
hydrogen-electric vehicles around the world.”

Batteries are the glue that holds the worlds of electric vehicles,
renewables, and distributed generation together. While lithium-ion batteries
have continued to improve in energy density and cost at a steady pace in
recent years, the broader industry has had its sights set on the next
generation battery cell technology. Nikola’s new team has developed a
prototype cell that delivers on the promises of future battery technologies,
with an energy density of 1,100 watt-hours per kilogram for the material and
500 watt-hours per kilogram when rolled into a cell.

Bringing 500 watt-hour cells to market would be a nice bump in energy
density and at a lower cost than batteries going into production electric
vehicles today. The path to market for the new battery tech is not going to
be an easy one as Nikola will need to build or license manufacturing
capacity for the new cells. It is exactly this bump in the road that
mainstream automakers are wrestling with now as the Chinese battery
manufacturing engine continues to spool up to fill the need. Indeed, to meet
its needs at its Shanghai Gigafactory, even Tesla contracted out the supply
of battery cells.

Nikola plans to share the intellectual property (IP) for the new batteries
with OEMs that contribute to a new battery consortium. The move has the
potential to catapult not only Nikola, but the world of automobiles into
electric vehicles at a rapid clip. It shows that Nikola sees the need for
battery cell standards that stretch beyond its walls and into the broader
industry to achieve the manufacturing scale required to bring the cost down
for everyone.

[image]  Nikola has big plans for 2020 as it continues to add scope to its
already complex launch  / Nikola Motor Company

Not that Nikola is planning to just give the tech out for free. It has big
aspirations for itself, with customer discussions about orders that would
propel it into the upper echelon of truck manufacturers. “Nikola is in
discussions with customers for truck orders that could fill production slots
for more than ten years and propel Nikola to become the top truck
manufacturer in the world in terms of revenue,” Milton said. “Now the
question is why not share it with the world?”

Of course, Nikola must first establish its own manufacturing presence that
can keep pace with the lengthy list of heavy truck manufacturers
aggressively moving into zero emission 

Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 20 Nov 2019 at 3:39, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

>  I did a little searching and the *current* average for a complete
> pack is about $200 per kWh. 

For another data point, it's 8000 Euros (about US$8800) to buy the factory 
52kWh battery for a 2020 Renault Zoe (AFAIK still Europe's largest-selling 
EV).  That's $169/kWh.  The 2019 Zoe battery was 42kWh and cost 9000 Euros 
($235/kWh). 

I'm sure that at some point, lithium batteries will probably reach the stage 
that lead batteries have, where they're effectively commodities whose price 
depends mostly on that of the raw materials going into them.  I don't see a 
way to predict when that might happen.

Also, as I and others have pointed out in this thread, there are other EV 
costs besides the battery that haven't yet been significantly reduced.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)