Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I would check either an annual report, or a report from the spring, when most 
of the curtailments occur. I don’t know the details…

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Sep 1, 2021, at 3:40 PM, Haudy Kazemi via EV  wrote:
> 
> Here is the daily CAISO report.
> 
> http://www.caiso.com/PublishedDocuments/WindSolarCurtailmentReport.pdf
> 
> It shows that the vast majority of curtailment events is due to local
> system congestion, and not because of demand.
> 
> I expect that remotely-positioned MW-scale solar farms are much more
> susceptible to congestion issues than rooftop solar. I'm also not sure that
> rooftop-scale solar supports curtailment.
> 
> On-site production allows for on-site self consumption, without tieing up a
> capacity on the local/regional grid. On-site production with storage
> further increases the time period where a site can operate without
> depending on the local/regional grid.
> 
> Energy storage at the production sites would improve the match between
> production supply and transmission capacity.
> 
> Energy storage near customers would improve the match between distribution
> capacity and customer demand.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 12:41 Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Southern California commonly sends its excess to Arizona - sometimes we
>> have to pay them to take it. Every year we curtail lots of renewables.
>> CaISO tracks how much.
>> 
>> - Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 1, 2021, at 10:15 AM, Jan Steinman via EV 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: "Peri Hartman" mailto:pe...@kotatko.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> If, for example, southern cali has excess
>>>> PV generation, it will need to ship that energy somewhere pretty far
>>>> away, say oregon or washington. That would require a pretty substantial
>>>> transmission line. I don't think the existing lines are sufficient.
>>> 
>>> The Pacific Intertie is a 600,000 volt DC line that stretches from
>> Washingon to SoCal. I think it can handle enough power for a minor city.
>>> 
>>> Jan
>>> 
>>> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I didn’t scroll far enough on my phone.

In the spring, when most occurs, it’s mostly “Economic”, either local or 
systemwide.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Sep 1, 2021, at 4:56 PM, Mark Abramowitz  wrote:
> I would check either an annual report, or a report from the spring, when 
> most of the curtailments occur. I don’t know the details…
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 1, 2021, at 3:40 PM, Haudy Kazemi via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Here is the daily CAISO report.
>> 
>> http://www.caiso.com/PublishedDocuments/WindSolarCurtailmentReport.pdf
>> 
>> It shows that the vast majority of curtailment events is due to local
>> system congestion, and not because of demand.
>> 
>> I expect that remotely-positioned MW-scale solar farms are much more
>> susceptible to congestion issues than rooftop solar. I'm also not sure that
>> rooftop-scale solar supports curtailment.
>> 
>> On-site production allows for on-site self consumption, without tieing up a
>> capacity on the local/regional grid. On-site production with storage
>> further increases the time period where a site can operate without
>> depending on the local/regional grid.
>> 
>> Energy storage at the production sites would improve the match between
>> production supply and transmission capacity.
>> 
>> Energy storage near customers would improve the match between distribution
>> capacity and customer demand.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 12:41 Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:
>>> Southern California commonly sends its excess to Arizona - sometimes we
>>> have to pay them to take it. Every year we curtail lots of renewables.
>>> CaISO tracks how much.
>>> - Mark
>>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>>>> On Sep 1, 2021, at 10:15 AM, Jan Steinman via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> From: "Peri Hartman" mailto:pe...@kotatko.com>>
>>>>> If, for example, southern cali has excess
>>>>> PV generation, it will need to ship that energy somewhere pretty far
>>>>> away, say oregon or washington. That would require a pretty substantial
>>>>> transmission line. I don't think the existing lines are sufficient.
>>>> The Pacific Intertie is a 600,000 volt DC line that stretches from
>>> Washingon to SoCal. I think it can handle enough power for a minor city.
>>>> Jan
>>>> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

Here is the daily CAISO report.

http://www.caiso.com/PublishedDocuments/WindSolarCurtailmentReport.pdf

It shows that the vast majority of curtailment events is due to local
system congestion, and not because of demand.

I expect that remotely-positioned MW-scale solar farms are much more
susceptible to congestion issues than rooftop solar. I'm also not sure that
rooftop-scale solar supports curtailment.

On-site production allows for on-site self consumption, without tieing up a
capacity on the local/regional grid. On-site production with storage
further increases the time period where a site can operate without
depending on the local/regional grid.

Energy storage at the production sites would improve the match between
production supply and transmission capacity.

Energy storage near customers would improve the match between distribution
capacity and customer demand.



On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 12:41 Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:

> Southern California commonly sends its excess to Arizona - sometimes we
> have to pay them to take it. Every year we curtail lots of renewables.
> CaISO tracks how much.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Sep 1, 2021, at 10:15 AM, Jan Steinman via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> >>
> >> From: "Peri Hartman" mailto:pe...@kotatko.com>>
> >>
> >> If, for example, southern cali has excess
> >> PV generation, it will need to ship that energy somewhere pretty far
> >> away, say oregon or washington. That would require a pretty substantial
> >> transmission line. I don't think the existing lines are sufficient.
> >
> > The Pacific Intertie is a 600,000 volt DC line that stretches from
> Washingon to SoCal. I think it can handle enough power for a minor city.
> >
> > Jan
> >
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

Are you referring to the kind of metal tanks with roofs that change height?

Or are you thinking of some kind of storage in giant low pressure
balloons/gas bladders, on the ground, that are anchored to the ground?

Giant low ground mounted pressure balloons may be a cost effective way to
store huge amounts of H2. It certainly is possible to build such things.
Position them near network bottlenecks.

(I guess they could also be tethered, allowed to be kept aloft, and
simultaneously used as platforms for aerial wind turbines similar to some
turbines that have been proposed in the past. This would reduce the
variable working capacity of the balloons, but would free up space on the
ground.)


On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 16:56 Michael Ross via EV  wrote:

> Batteries on a large scale fall behind H2 storage if you have big enough
> tanks, and if you correctly factor in the costs of batteries and tanks.
> Where the lines cross is an open question.
>
> I live 10 miles from a big gas depot in Selma NC. They hold lot and are
> very simple, big inverted buckets that rise and fall with the gas. You can
> electrolyze H2 into a tank and you get compression for free. Battery
> manufacturing, care and feeding is non-trivial. H2 is worth a look for grid
> size storage.
>
> Pump storage is similar in efficiency, but hell on the environment,
> destroying important watersheds, drowning arable land and habitat. Big dams
> cost a lot. Turbines. Makes a tank of gas attractive.
>
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 11:58 AM Willie via EV  wrote:
>
> > Snip
> >
> > Short term battery storage can be sited near production as well as
> > anywhere else.
> >
> > If you can sell the energy within a few hours and if battery cost
> > allows, battery storage looks good to me.
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

Batteries on a large scale fall behind H2 storage if you have big enough
tanks, and if you correctly factor in the costs of batteries and tanks.
Where the lines cross is an open question.

I live 10 miles from a big gas depot in Selma NC. They hold lot and are
very simple, big inverted buckets that rise and fall with the gas. You can
electrolyze H2 into a tank and you get compression for free. Battery
manufacturing, care and feeding is non-trivial. H2 is worth a look for grid
size storage.

Pump storage is similar in efficiency, but hell on the environment,
destroying important watersheds, drowning arable land and habitat. Big dams
cost a lot. Turbines. Makes a tank of gas attractive.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 11:58 AM Willie via EV  wrote:

> Snip
>
> Short term battery storage can be sited near production as well as
> anywhere else.
>
> If you can sell the energy within a few hours and if battery cost
> allows, battery storage looks good to me.
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

Instead of wasting what is generated, can some of this RE be used for
other things?  Farming comes to mind.  Commercial fishing.  Wool cloth
manufacturing.  Will we end up regulating our lives by the sun cycles
and energy generated?

What do we do or can do in the spring, Summer, and fall months that we
don't ordinarily do in the late fall, winter, and early spring months?

We are a long ways off on any of this but instead of limiting RE, we
might want to find ways of harnessing this energy.

We might find that we work with the utilities where they "rent" space
on our roofs for panels and have the ability to turn the panels and/or
battery storage arrays on and off as needed.

Maybe with our satellites we can sense cloud cover and what it will do
to RE generation to the point that panels can be turned on and off
almost automatically to keep the grid stable.  With that, the power
generation companies would become energy distribution and control
companies in partnership with the citizens and shareholders.  I can
see them buying and maintaining battery storage arrays so we, as
average citizens, don't have to purchase and maintain "power walls"
but support similar structures as Tesla's battery banks in Australia.
If we do have "power walls", we will have to be independent of the
grid or allow some type of control from the energy companies so the
grid remains stable.

Just some ideas that have probably been thought of before.

"When you shoot from the hip, make sure your gun clears the holster
first." - Sam "[W]hole Foot" Johnston


On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 11:04 AM Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
>
> RE oversupply implies discounting RE
> power. Whatever distortions that are applied will have to be paid for, by
> customers probably, because stockholders are rarely penalized.
>
> It is also possible that RE power is actually less costly, then the penalty
> gets paid by the customers of the non-RE generators/aggregaters.
>
> Somebody pays that is certain. Plenty of RE is long term less costly to
> produce than, nukes and fossils. A well built and operated solar facility
> can be very competitive. But again there are often subsidies baked in that
> have enduring but hard to see effects.
>
> I'm not knowledgeable about wind. Presumably they can compete as well, or
> the difference is being made up in tax breaks, credits etc.
>
> My main point is someone does pay, even if a facility is run at less than
> optimal output. It is often hidden.
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 10:50 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > On 31 Aug 2021 at 21:55, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> >
> > > My first guess is CA has distorted the market with subsidies, etc. It is
> > > likely a pendulum swing, the asking price will have to come down. Supply
> > > greater than demand.  Some one is going to get some electrons below cost.
> >
> > Again I'm speaking out of relative ignorance, not having exhaustively
> > researched the California energy situation.  However one would think that
> > the utilities aren't apt to buy more RE than they're required to,
> > especially
> > if it costs more than brown energy.
> >
> > So one solution to RE oversupply would be for the California legislature
> > to
> > generate demand by raising the required percentage of RE in the grid, no?
> >
> > And, again, using that excess RE to charge EVs should be a winner all
> > round.
> >
> > However, I'm throwing darts in the dark here, so it'd be great to hear
> > from
> > someone more familiar with the situation.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >  What has allowed so many psychopathic personalities to rise
> >  so high in corporations, and now in government, is that they
> >  are so decisive. Unlike normal people, they are never filled
> >  with doubts, for the simple reason that they cannot care what
> >  happens next.
> >
> >   -- Kurt Vonnegut
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

"that the grid can't handle" is just another example of market distortion.
It is a choice of the market, not to say "the grid can't handle so much
generation of non-RE."

There is a lag in response of the market when you build a gas plant or a
nuke that can't be turned down when the cost leans toward RE. A decades
long distortion.

Again the consumer pays. Because this lost flexibility is cooked in The
gain of economy of scale a maybe archaic large generation facility has a
hidden cost of preventing cleaner less costly, more flexible, but weirdly
time constrained RE generation.

I think H2 might be useful as a storage medium. Lots of inefficiency, but
on a large scale it has merit. Better than turning down or shutting off a
clean cheap generation means.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 10:22 AM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of PV
> energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy would
> be sold, not shut down.
>
> The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create
> hydrogen storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an
> excellent use for electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel
> cells. Note, for this application, the hydrogen does not need to be
> compressed.
>
> Peri


>
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

google ducks-back-curve.
Battery storage is max value for about 2 hrs a day during the
evening demand as solar shuts down and baseload power ramps up.

When the grid pays battery owners their actual rate during that peak need,
a battery system can completely pay for itself in about 2 yeard.
bob

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 12:53 PM Willie via EV  wrote:
>
>
> On 9/1/21 10:20 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> > It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of
> > PV energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy
> > would be sold, not shut down.
> >
> > The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create
> > hydrogen storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an
> > excellent use for electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel
> > cells. Note, for this application, the hydrogen does not need to be
> > compressed.
>
>
> Speaking without great familiarity with storage costs, I think short
> term battery storage is most likely to solve the problem. Battery stored
> energy can get to the grid for only about a 20% loss while hydrogen, as
> I understand, will be FAR less efficient.
>
> Typically, over production of either wind or PV can be managed with
> storage of well under 24 hours.  We can look forward to continued
> battery cost reductions, especially from Tesla.
>
> For longer term storage, hydrogen might find a niche.
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

There is going to ba a point above which recycling batteries  into new ones
has a better payback than using them for storage. And, above which H2 and
other less material intensive tech will be better storage. Tech will advance

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 2:43 PM Ed Blackmond via EV 
wrote:

>
>
> > On Sep 1, 2021, at 9:53 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> >
> > 
> >> On 9/1/21 10:20 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> >> It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of PV
> energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy would be
> sold, not shut down.
> >>
> >> The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create
> hydrogen storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an excellent
> use for electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel cells. Note, for
> this application, the hydrogen does not need to be compressed.
> >
> >
> > Speaking without great familiarity with storage costs, I think short
> term battery storage is most likely to solve the problem. Battery stored
> energy can get to the grid for only about a 20% loss while hydrogen, as I
> understand, will be FAR less efficient.
> >
> > Typically, over production of either wind or PV can be managed with
> storage of well under 24 hours.  We can look forward to continued battery
> cost reductions, especially from Tesla.
> >
> > For longer term storage, hydrogen might find a niche.
> >
> There will soon be more battery storage than we know what to do with. All
> these electric vehicles with 200+ mile range will need to replace their
> batteries when the range drops below an acceptable level.
>
> These batteries will still be quite useful for grid storage/backup. It
> doesn’t really matter how much ground space a battery requires when it is
> sitting under a solar array.
>
> When the batteries are depleted enough to no longer be useful for this
> application, they are going to be in centralized locations simplifying the
> recycling process and they can become new batteries for cars, starting the
> cycle all over again.
>
> Ed
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-- 
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
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[EVDL] Westchester's Bee Line Electric Buses

[Seth Rothenberg via EV]

I just saw this today.Nice to hear.
I am sure they will like the benefits
They may eventually find communities less resistant to bus lines
if they are served by an electric fleet (in the future).


http://yonkerstimes.com/westchester-county-gets-six-all-electric-bus-for-bee-line-fleet/


For the first time in Westchester County history, the County is running all
electric buses.  The County has added six all electric Bee-Line Buses on
the fleet.  The buses, which are all part of the clean fleet initiative,
are two 40-foot buses and four 35-foot buses.  County Executive
George Latimer will be on hand to welcome the first of the new buses, a New
Flyer Xcelsior XE35 electric bus, to Westchester on Aug. 31.

(One of the routes that will be served goes past my office that I don't go
to anymore :-)
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Rod Hower via EV]

 
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-says-new-recycling-process-recovers-92-of-battery-materials/

Tesla says they can recover 92% of the materials when recycling.
On Wednesday, September 1, 2021, 02:34:38 PM EDT, Ed Blackmond via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

> On Sep 1, 2021, at 9:53 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 9/1/21 10:20 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of PV 
>> energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy would be 
>> sold, not shut down.
>> 
>> The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create hydrogen 
>> storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an excellent use for 
>> electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel cells. Note, for this 
>> application, the hydrogen does not need to be compressed.
> 
> 
> Speaking without great familiarity with storage costs, I think short term 
> battery storage is most likely to solve the problem. Battery stored energy 
> can get to the grid for only about a 20% loss while hydrogen, as I 
> understand, will be FAR less efficient.
> 
> Typically, over production of either wind or PV can be managed with storage 
> of well under 24 hours.  We can look forward to continued battery cost 
> reductions, especially from Tesla.
> 
> For longer term storage, hydrogen might find a niche.
> 
There will soon be more battery storage than we know what to do with. All these 
electric vehicles with 200+ mile range will need to replace their batteries 
when the range drops below an acceptable level. 

These batteries will still be quite useful for grid storage/backup. It doesn’t 
really matter how much ground space a battery requires when it is sitting under 
a solar array.

When the batteries are depleted enough to no longer be useful for this 
application, they are going to be in centralized locations simplifying the 
recycling process and they can become new batteries for cars, starting the 
cycle all over again.

Ed
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Ed Blackmond via EV]

> On Sep 1, 2021, at 9:53 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 9/1/21 10:20 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of PV 
>> energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy would be 
>> sold, not shut down.
>> 
>> The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create hydrogen 
>> storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an excellent use for 
>> electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel cells. Note, for this 
>> application, the hydrogen does not need to be compressed.
> 
> 
> Speaking without great familiarity with storage costs, I think short term 
> battery storage is most likely to solve the problem. Battery stored energy 
> can get to the grid for only about a 20% loss while hydrogen, as I 
> understand, will be FAR less efficient.
> 
> Typically, over production of either wind or PV can be managed with storage 
> of well under 24 hours.  We can look forward to continued battery cost 
> reductions, especially from Tesla.
> 
> For longer term storage, hydrogen might find a niche.
> 
There will soon be more battery storage than we know what to do with. All these 
electric vehicles with 200+ mile range will need to replace their batteries 
when the range drops below an acceptable level. 

These batteries will still be quite useful for grid storage/backup. It doesn’t 
really matter how much ground space a battery requires when it is sitting under 
a solar array.

When the batteries are depleted enough to no longer be useful for this 
application, they are going to be in centralized locations simplifying the 
recycling process and they can become new batteries for cars, starting the 
cycle all over again.

Ed
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Southern California commonly sends its excess to Arizona - sometimes we have to 
pay them to take it. Every year we curtail lots of renewables. CaISO tracks how 
much.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Sep 1, 2021, at 10:15 AM, Jan Steinman via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> From: "Peri Hartman" mailto:pe...@kotatko.com>>
>> 
>> If, for example, southern cali has excess 
>> PV generation, it will need to ship that energy somewhere pretty far
>> away, say oregon or washington. That would require a pretty substantial 
>> transmission line. I don't think the existing lines are sufficient.
> 
> The Pacific Intertie is a 600,000 volt DC line that stretches from Washingon 
> to SoCal. I think it can handle enough power for a minor city.
> 
> Jan
> 
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[jim--- via EV]

From: "Jan Steinman via EV"
> The Pacific Intertie is a 600,000 volt DC line that stretches from Washingon 
> to SoCal.
> I think it can handle enough power for a minor city.

As I said in an earlier post, the DC Pacific Intertie is actually one megavolt 
and goes from Celilo Oregon (near Bonnville Dam) to Sylmar, Calif. with a 
capacity of 3,100 MW.  Quite a lot more capacity exists in AC lines.

73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org


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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Jan Steinman via EV]

> From: "Peri Hartman" mailto:pe...@kotatko.com>>
> 
> If, for example, southern cali has excess 
> PV generation, it will need to ship that energy somewhere pretty far 
> away, say oregon or washington. That would require a pretty substantial 
> transmission line. I don't think the existing lines are sufficient.

The Pacific Intertie is a 600,000 volt DC line that stretches from Washingon to 
SoCal. I think it can handle enough power for a minor city.

Jan

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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Jan Steinman via EV]

> From: Michael Ross  <mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com>>
> 
> We have a nation wide grid and a market for power.

Not to my understanding. East and west are divided, and Texas is a grid unto 
its own. There are also smaller regional grids still around.

With the Western Intertie, there's no place to sell excess solar, except to 
other west coast states that are having the same weather.

(I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong… :-)

Jan

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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Peri Hartman via EV]

For FCEVs, hydrogen is horribly inefficient. However, for grid storage 
it's much better. First, it doesn't have to be compressed, it can be 
stored in inflatable tanks. Second, it can be burned in a turbine rather 
than in a fuel cell. I'm not sure if that's more efficient but the 
technology is simpler. So, I don't know how this would compare to 
batteries, but perhaps pretty favorably, especially considering 
construction costs.


Also, for those who are wary of explosions, it's my understanding that 
stored hydrogen (uncompressed) won't explode. It will burn. That means 
it would create a vertical plume of hot gases and not harm anything in 
the vicinity on the ground. Explosions happen when you have oxygen and 
fuel already mixed together.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 01-Sep-21 08:55:45
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant 
to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the




On 9/1/21 10:20 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of PV energy. 
If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy would be sold, not 
shut down.

The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create hydrogen 
storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an excellent use for 
electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel cells. Note, for this 
application, the hydrogen does not need to be compressed.



Speaking without great familiarity with storage costs, I think short term 
battery storage is most likely to solve the problem. Battery stored energy can 
get to the grid for only about a 20% loss while hydrogen, as I understand, will 
be FAR less efficient.

Typically, over production of either wind or PV can be managed with storage of 
well under 24 hours.  We can look forward to continued battery cost reductions, 
especially from Tesla.

For longer term storage, hydrogen might find a niche.



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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Willie via EV]

On 9/1/21 10:20 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of 
PV energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy 
would be sold, not shut down.


The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create 
hydrogen storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an 
excellent use for electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel 
cells. Note, for this application, the hydrogen does not need to be 
compressed.



Speaking without great familiarity with storage costs, I think short 
term battery storage is most likely to solve the problem. Battery stored 
energy can get to the grid for only about a 20% loss while hydrogen, as 
I understand, will be FAR less efficient.


Typically, over production of either wind or PV can be managed with 
storage of well under 24 hours.  We can look forward to continued 
battery cost reductions, especially from Tesla.


For longer term storage, hydrogen might find a niche.



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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Ok, good to know. Then, why do you think the PV generation is being shut 
down during local overabundance ?

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "jim--- via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "j...@k6ccc.org" 
Sent: 01-Sep-21 09:07:47
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant 
to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the



From: "Peri Hartman via EV"

 Michael, I don't follow you. If, for example, southern cali has excess
 PV generation, it will need to ship that energy somewhere pretty far
 away, say oregon or washington. That would require a pretty substantial
 transmission line. I don't think the existing lines are sufficient.


There is plenty of transmission line capacity between SoCal and Oregon and 
Washington.  Thousands of MegaWatts routinely goes one way or the other between 
those locations.  There is the DC Pacific Interie (1 MV DC) between Celilo 
Oregon (near Bonneville Dam) and Sylmar, Calif (near Los Angeles) alone has a 
capacity of 3,100 MW, and the AC Pacific Intertie (multiple lines at 500 KV) 
has a capacity of 4,800 MW.  Additionally there are a bunch of other 500KV AC 
and 220 KV AC lines  that provide additional routes and capacities.

73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org


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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[jim--- via EV]

From: "Peri Hartman via EV"
> Michael, I don't follow you. If, for example, southern cali has excess 
> PV generation, it will need to ship that energy somewhere pretty far 
> away, say oregon or washington. That would require a pretty substantial 
> transmission line. I don't think the existing lines are sufficient. 

There is plenty of transmission line capacity between SoCal and Oregon and 
Washington.  Thousands of MegaWatts routinely goes one way or the other between 
those locations.  There is the DC Pacific Interie (1 MV DC) between Celilo 
Oregon (near Bonneville Dam) and Sylmar, Calif (near Los Angeles) alone has a 
capacity of 3,100 MW, and the AC Pacific Intertie (multiple lines at 500 KV) 
has a capacity of 4,800 MW.  Additionally there are a bunch of other 500KV AC 
and 220 KV AC lines  that provide additional routes and capacities.

73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org


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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

If you take a longer view, SoCal has an excess of non-RE power that needs
to be shipped pretty far away.

If climate change remediation is going to really happen we need to fill the
status quo. The consumers will pay one way or another, with increasingly
poor climate outcomes, and all the cost that will bring, or with money to
apply more RE.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 11:53 AM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Michael, I don't follow you. If, for example, southern cali has excess
> PV generation, it will need to ship that energy somewhere pretty far
> away, say oregon or washington. That would require a pretty substantial
> transmission line. I don't think the existing lines are sufficient. The
> market is there but the infrastructure is not, so they shut down the
> PVs.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Michael Ross" 
> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" 
> Sent: 01-Sep-21 08:40:44
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant
> to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the
>
> >"that the grid can't handle" is just another example of market
> >distortion. It is a choice of the market, not to say "the grid can't
> >handle so much generation of non-RE."
> >
> >There is a lag in response of the market when you build a gas plant or
> >a nuke that can't be turned down when the cost leans toward RE. A
> >decades long distortion.
> >
> >Again the consumer pays. Because this lost flexibility is cooked in The
> >gain of economy of scale a maybe archaic large generation facility has
> >a hidden cost of preventing cleaner less costly, more flexible, but
> >weirdly time constrained RE generation.
> >
> >I think H2 might be useful as a storage medium. Lots of inefficiency,
> >but on a large scale it has merit. Better than turning down or shutting
> >off a clean cheap generation means.
> >
> >On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 10:22 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
> >wrote:
> >>It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of
> >>PV
> >>energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy
> >>would
> >>be sold, not shut down.
> >>
> >>The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create
> >>hydrogen storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an
> >>excellent use for electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel
> >>cells. Note, for this application, the hydrogen does not need to be
> >>compressed.
> >>
> >>Peri
> >>
> >>
> >>___
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Willie via EV]

On 9/1/21 11:51 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Michael, I don't follow you. If, for example, southern cali has excess 
PV generation, it will need to ship that energy somewhere pretty far 
away, say oregon or washington. That would require a pretty 
substantial transmission line. I don't think the existing lines are 
sufficient. The market is there but the infrastructure is not, so they 
shut down the PVs.


Short term battery storage can be sited near production as well as 
anywhere else.


If you can sell the energy within a few hours and if battery cost 
allows, battery storage looks good to me.




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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Michael, I don't follow you. If, for example, southern cali has excess 
PV generation, it will need to ship that energy somewhere pretty far 
away, say oregon or washington. That would require a pretty substantial 
transmission line. I don't think the existing lines are sufficient. The 
market is there but the infrastructure is not, so they shut down the 
PVs.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Michael Ross" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 01-Sep-21 08:40:44
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant 
to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the


"that the grid can't handle" is just another example of market 
distortion. It is a choice of the market, not to say "the grid can't 
handle so much generation of non-RE."


There is a lag in response of the market when you build a gas plant or 
a nuke that can't be turned down when the cost leans toward RE. A 
decades long distortion.


Again the consumer pays. Because this lost flexibility is cooked in The 
gain of economy of scale a maybe archaic large generation facility has 
a hidden cost of preventing cleaner less costly, more flexible, but 
weirdly time constrained RE generation.


I think H2 might be useful as a storage medium. Lots of inefficiency, 
but on a large scale it has merit. Better than turning down or shutting 
off a clean cheap generation means.


On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 10:22 AM Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:
It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of 
PV
energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy 
would

be sold, not shut down.

The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create
hydrogen storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an
excellent use for electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel
cells. Note, for this application, the hydrogen does not need to be
compressed.

Peri


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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

RE oversupply implies discounting RE
power. Whatever distortions that are applied will have to be paid for, by
customers probably, because stockholders are rarely penalized.

It is also possible that RE power is actually less costly, then the penalty
gets paid by the customers of the non-RE generators/aggregaters.

Somebody pays that is certain. Plenty of RE is long term less costly to
produce than, nukes and fossils. A well built and operated solar facility
can be very competitive. But again there are often subsidies baked in that
have enduring but hard to see effects.

I'm not knowledgeable about wind. Presumably they can compete as well, or
the difference is being made up in tax breaks, credits etc.

My main point is someone does pay, even if a facility is run at less than
optimal output. It is often hidden.


On Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 10:50 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 31 Aug 2021 at 21:55, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > My first guess is CA has distorted the market with subsidies, etc. It is
> > likely a pendulum swing, the asking price will have to come down. Supply
> > greater than demand.  Some one is going to get some electrons below cost.
>
> Again I'm speaking out of relative ignorance, not having exhaustively
> researched the California energy situation.  However one would think that
> the utilities aren't apt to buy more RE than they're required to,
> especially
> if it costs more than brown energy.
>
> So one solution to RE oversupply would be for the California legislature
> to
> generate demand by raising the required percentage of RE in the grid, no?
>
> And, again, using that excess RE to charge EVs should be a winner all
> round.
>
> However, I'm throwing darts in the dark here, so it'd be great to hear
> from
> someone more familiar with the situation.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
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>  so high in corporations, and now in government, is that they
>  are so decisive. Unlike normal people, they are never filled
>  with doubts, for the simple reason that they cannot care what
>  happens next.
>
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Peri Hartman via EV]

It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of PV 
energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy would 
be sold, not shut down.


The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create 
hydrogen storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an 
excellent use for electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel 
cells. Note, for this application, the hydrogen does not need to be 
compressed.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Michael Ross via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Michael Ross" 
Sent: 31-Aug-21 18:55:16
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant 
to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the



We have a nation wide grid and a market for power. Storage is less of a
problem than cost. CA may not be selling at a price people are buying. It's
also hard to raise level of pump storage when the water gets used for ag.

My first guess is CA has distorted the market with subsidies, etc. It is
likely a pendulum swing, the asking price will have to come down. Supply
greater than demand.  Some one is going to get some electrons below cost.



On Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 8:30 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:


 From what I've read, California now has so many PV installations that
 they're actually deliberately cutting output - there's more supply than
 demand.  Springtime is a particular problem because there's ample
 sunshine,
 but the weather is mild, so there's little need for heating or aircon.

 Long-term storage would seem to be the real answer, I guess (I"m not an
 expert), and maybe the legislature needs to revisit their RE goals.

 But for the immediate situation, more EVs => more demand => more efficient
 use of installed PV, no?

 Since charging tends to be at night, short-term storage would be a factor,
 I
 suppose.  Seems easier to implement than long-term storage, but again,
 what
 do I know?

 David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

 To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
 offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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