Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[jamie via EV]

www.britannica.com/topic/cult-of-personality


On 5/6/24 9:35 PM, David Heacock via EV wrote:

  Let's make Elon the Vice President under Trump and have him in charge of 
eliminating waste in our government. Can you even imagine how our country would 
benefit?  Just give him two years.  Just sayin.
 On Monday, May 6, 2024 at 11:57:20 AM PDT, Rush via EV  
wrote:
  
  I highly recommend that everybody see Munro's new utube video entitled

'Sandy's take on the Tesla Layoffs!'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl4VjvZu5os

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[jamie via EV]

OTOH: David listed facts of Tesla's fresh round of layoffs, with links. 
That, in and of itself, isn't prejudice, hatred or partisanship. No 
reason to stifle the messenger. It's news we can use.


Everyone is able to provide evidence to support their own conclusions. 
That's also be useful. All of this sparks discussion which is why we're 
here. It's in the name.


Beyond reporting news, everyone here, including the moderator, is 
entitled to have and express opinions.


Any car company can be lauded or criticized here. None are perfect. I 
don't know of a car company that can't be fairly criticized for 
perceived mistakes in the EV transition, although reasonable people may 
disagree in their interpretations. Good news and bad news can be shared 
and evaluated from everyone's particular perspectives.


Exciting to watch and experience, the technologies and market share have 
been progressing rapidly thanks to a lot of talented engineers, 
marketers, EV fans and those involved in pro-EV public policy.


Sales of EVs continue to grow but the amount of growth is slowing at the 
moment. How manufacturers and folks like us navigate this evolving 
market is worth monitoring.


I found this article to be interesting summation of current market 
conditions:


https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/01/cars/electric-vehicle-market-sales-tesla-ford/index.html

IMHO how each company copes with various challenges as the market grows, 
and how their decisions effect those of us who buy their vehicles, are 
all worthy and appropriate topics of discussion.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 4/30/24 9:47 PM, Rush via EV wrote:

David -

Your prejudice against Tesla is so evident and overwhelming. I think that it is
actually very counterproductive to the EV world. It seems to me that you're
engaging in partisan politics, and that by continuously denigrating Tesla and
Elon Musk at every turn you are promoting hatred which as I understand is
against the EVDL List Conventions.

You are the moderator of this list and as such should sent an example for the
rest of us. I think that a little moderation on your part is called for.

Best regards,

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV



-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 4:55 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: EV List Lackey 
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

Tesla has dismissed 3 entire teams:

- Vehicle and new product development

- EV charging

- Public policy

Tesla had ONE bad quarter.  Boom, they've laid off "at least" 10% of the

workforce

(I've read that it's really closer to 20%).  They've also dumped 3 major
development teams and their directors.

The importance of the first two seems pretty obvious.

As I read it, the public policy folks would be the ones to negotiate with
governments for clearance to deploy those "robotaxis" that Tesla seems to have
bet their future on.

This after one bad quarter.  It seems a little rash to me, but what do I know?

In more detail:

1. Tesla has dismissed Daniel Ho, director of vehicle programs and new product
introduction; and laid off his entire team.  Ho had been with Tesla since

2013.


2. They fired senior director of EV charging Rebecca Tinucci and laid off her

entire

team.  Tinucci was hired in 2018.

3. Rohan Patel, vice president of public policy and business development,

resigned

earlier this month.  Now Tesla has laid off the entire public policy team.

Musk, in an email: "Hopefully these actions are making it clear that we need

to be

absolutely hardcore about headcount and cost reduction. While some on exec

staff

are taking this seriously, most are not yet doing so."

Presumably (one hopes?) these functions will be taken over by some of Tesla's
other "hardcore" (overworked) employees.  Sure glad I'm not one of them.

More info:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/tesla-to-lay-off-everyone-working-on-
superchargers-new-vehicles/

or https://v.gd/lrDabh

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas-musk-trims-
senior-management-amid-more-layoffs-information-reports-2024-04-30/

or https://v.gd/YQoopg

This article seems to suggest that with NACS becoming an industry standard,

Tesla

doesn't really need to participate any more:

https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/tesla-supercharger-layoffs-
throw-industry-nacs-shift-into-turmoil

or https://cntp.me/gPhNuPw

-

PS - Apart from the literal-more-than-decimation of Tesla's staff, this makes

5 top

brass who've left lately.  Some of them had fairly long tenure.

In addition to the 3 above, their longtime vice president of investor

relations,

Martin Viecha, resigned recently.  And earlier this month, Senior Vice

President

Drew Baglino left.  Baglino was in charge of engineering batteries and motors.
He'd been with Tesla for 18 years.

Not exactly a rush for the exits, but still ... concerning.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla preconditioning, regen disabled and charging in cold weather

[jamie via EV]

Thanks for the info about the Tesla thermal management relating 
primarily to supercharging. Good to know.


> The **2011** Leaf thermal management system sucks.

The 2011 Leaf, basically Leaf 1.0, didn't have the cold weather features 
that were added in 2013.


Like Lee, we also have a 2013 Leaf. It has several useful improvements 
over the 2011 1.0 version you had, including the addition of a cold 
weather package and reported changes in battery chemistry. Our 2013 Leaf 
kept battery temp within operating range even though parked outside in 
sub-zero temps during the multi-day cold snap, and it didn't drain the 
battery excessively doing so. I was reasonably impressed.




On 1/19/24 11:10 AM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

Yes, that only applies to full power supercharging on Ternary (NMC).   If
you don't preheat (use the nav) a Tesla can still supercharge, but if not
that hot you will get lower peak power as well as a faster taper.   This is
why Tesla has integrated supercharging into the navigation system, so it
will begin pre-heating the pack before you arrive at the next station.
Having the pack at these temperatures reduces the possibility of anode
plating, so it's important if you want a long life with good charging
speeds.  Most of Tesla's packs can now charge at well over 3C with no
plating because of this tight thermal control.  I don't know what the temp
curves look like for LFP, I haven't analyzed one yet.

The pack will not need to preheat like this for normal level 2 speeds.

The Leaf thermal management system sucks.   I had one of the original 2011
models when they were first introduced.  I didn't keep it long, and I'm
glad!   It's clear Nissan doesn't understand Ternary chemistry.   Even at
the slow speeds the Leaf can DCFC, it still experiences rapid degradation.

On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:44 AM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:



--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
-Original Message-
(-Phil-) wrote:

No, if the battery is at 60F it's simply not going to be able to run the

reactions needed to charge. The minimum temp for full speed supercharging
is around 125F.

Wow; that's amazingly hot. I had no idea Tesla's batteries had to run that
hot to charge.

Do these temperature limits only apply to supercharging? I.e. can you
charge at lower rates at lower temperatures?

Is this a characteristic of Tesla's batteries? Or of LiFePO4 in general?


My 2013 Leaf is sitting outside in 0 deg.F temperatures, and will charge
and do regen. It has a battery heater, but it doesn't turn on until it gets
below about -10 deg.F.

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] Why Toyota Isn't Rushing to Sell You an Electric

[jamie via EV]

I read somewhere that Toyota may have been reacting to the US 
government's 1990's forward looking "Partnership for a New Generation of 
Vehicles" program which included only domestic auto manufacturers and 
was showing results toward 80mpg - and when PNGV was subsequently 
cancelled by Bush Jr. (at the behest of those same domestic auto 
manufacturers), that gave Toyota an opportunity with its independent R 
to eventually hit a home run with the Prius.


Being the clear winner in hybrid tech, it wouldn't be unusual or 
unexpected to want to protect a successful market. Waves of disruption 
don't usually come from those benefiting from and clinging to fading 
moats (with some exceptions). But eventually a buggy whip market share 
will fall, along with companies who fail to disrupt and reinvent 
themselves toward a more successful future.


Public companies are no less threatened by lack of vision than family 
managed companies. GM did go bankrupt, for example. We all bailed them 
out. And Chrysler was swallowed up.


Toyota has plenty of experience with EV tech but they need to evolve 
their business model. Hope they pull it off, and soon.



On 5/19/23 4:14 AM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

On 19 May 2023 at 0:00, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:


They seem to want to go bankrupt.


Toyota is like Fiat (at least used to be) - wedded to the ICE.  At top
management level, they seem to despise the very idea of true EVs.

I'm obvously not an insider, but I suspect that Toyota developed their
original hybrid design not as a way to prepare for an EV future, but as a
way to fend off EVs and support ICEVs.

Stellantis is in the EU, where sales of new private ICEVs have been banned
by law from 2035. If they want to continue to compete, Stellantis have
little choice but to develop and sell EVs.

Toyata is in (duh) Japan, and they have an enormous level of influence in
the Japanese government.  That's probably why Japan's 2035 ICEV "ban" - wait
for it - prohibits the sale of "liquid fuel only" vehicles.

In other words, as Europe and China aim for true EVs, Japan is casting their
lot with Toyota-approved hybrids.

I think that in the long run, Toyota (and Honda, and Suzuki, and Mazda, and,
well, Japan overall) will regret clinging so tightly to hybrids.  China is
likely to do to Japan's auto industry in the 2030s what Japan did to the
US's in the 1980s.  It will darn well serve them right.

I don't think that Toyota will actually declare bankruptcy as a result, but
they're likely to become a smaller, less prosperous company.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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  technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about
  science and technology.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging

[jamie via EV]

To contrast with Willie's oft reported and unfortunately terrible 
experience with his early model, our 2013 SV LEAF has been a good 
investment and overall reliable car. LEAFs had some upgrades that year 
including a battery percentage display, charge connector lighting, heat 
pump, and reportedly improved battery chemistry. Has heated seats and 
steering wheel - great in winter.


Bought used with under 3k miles. Have replaced tires a few times, 12volt 
accessory battery once, and brake fluid as recommended during the 80,000 
or so miles driven so far. Down one bar (of 12) on the battery and still 
handles our local driving needs, which is most of our driving.


Always fun to drive and we appreciate the practical hatchback design. We 
weren't looking to pay triple the price or more for race car 
performance, but the LEAF does have that instant EV torque and rules the 
road in city driving.


There's a slight (and apparently common) problem with the driver's door 
handle cover that we won't bother to fix. And the charge door failed to 
open once, but fixed itself.


The ride seems nicer than the Tesla M3s I've ridden in and it may have 
less road noise IIRC. Have not yet ridden in a Model Y. When the time 
comes to replace our distance car (2007 Prius) we'll see if Tesla makes 
a similar small hatchback by then, or what other such options may become 
available from VW, Ford, KIA, Hyundai or others (Fisker PEAR?). 
Hopefully Honda, Mazda, Toyota and other laggards will get their EV acts 
together, too.


I'm among those put off by some of the negative aspects of Elon's 
management style, penchant for drama and foot swallowing, plus 
designed-in vehicle privacy issues, and the repair problems one of my 
Tesla owning friends has experienced. That said, Tesla as a company has 
certainly led the way toward the EV explosion thanks to the 
contributions of MANY talented people, and, importantly, the continued 
support of regional and federal government programs and incentives in 
the USA and elsewhere.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/18/23 10:56 AM, Willie via EV wrote:


On 5/18/23 11:41, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

On 17 May 2023 at 22:49, paul dove via EV wrote:


So, what is your alternative. A leaf? They were the only ones that made
a usable vehicle.
Why not a Leaf?  Early ones had problems in hot climates, and I'm 
aware of
some warranty coverage gripes.  Despite that, quite a few people, 
including

members of this list, have owned them and have gotten good service from
them.


We bought a new 2011 Leaf.  Here in Texas, the battery lasted ~20k miles 
in ~2 years.  Nissan dealers, on several occasions, declared the battery 
to be "normal" even though range was about 50 miles.  Down from ~90.   I 
could have joined the class action suit but did not want to fool with 
it.  Just as I will not fool with Tesla about reduced SuperCharging 
power.  But, I will never buy another Nissan car.  Just as I will never 
buy another GM car.  I will, almost certainly, buy more Teslas.  I still 
keep track of that Leaf.  It is near valueless.  Not fooling with the 
class action suit was the right decision.  The participants got VERY 
little satisfaction.


GM still gets much grief for their behavior with the EV1.  IMHO, it was 
their right to do what they did.  There biggest sin was denying us NiMH 
chemistry for ~10 years.  With NiMH a FAR better Leaf could have been 
developed and sold.  As it is, EV adoption was delayed about ten years.



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Re: [EVDL] leaf heater switch

[jamie via EV]

To be sure (as Willie so often reminds us in many LEAF threads), 
Nissan's 2011 model LEAF had some battery issues for some users 
especially in hot climates, and their lack of support on that issue has 
been worthy of criticism.


But to claim the LEAF was immediately "abandoned" as a product would be 
a stretch as Nissan has added features, changed the battery tech and 
increased the range over successive model years.


"Idiosyncrasies and workarounds" is a subjective judgement that could be 
leveled at any car I've ever driven. We all might feel we could do 
better than the car companies in a variety of ways. For example, the 
Tesla Model 3 lacks a common dashboard and forces the driver's eye to 
the central display - good idea or poor design? You decide.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/19/22 8:17 AM, Willie via EV wrote:


On 5/19/22 09:33, Jay Summet via EV wrote:



On 5/19/22 01:00, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
There's no way (at least that I'm aware of) to override [the charge 
timer]. It's plain idiotic.




On my 2015 leaf, there is a dash button "Charge Timer Off" (it's an 
icon with a sorta clock and plug with the word "Off"). If you want to 
charge manually, you plug in the car, and THEN push that button, and 
it will charge normally that one time.


It is annoying in that you can't press it when getting out of the 
car...you have to go around to the front, plug in (the three top of 
dash lights will light up in a "follow" pattern one by one to indicate 
that the chaging timer is active) and then you have to open the driver 
door again to push the button, at which point you'll hear the clicks 
of the battery contactors engaging and the charging lights will go 
into their normally "charging in progress" mode.


An observation:


These idiosyncrasies and work arounds due to poor design on Leafs would 
be entirely forgivable had Nissan been committed to customer support and 
making incremental improvements.  Instead, Nissan mostly abandoned the 
Leaf and forced early adopters to sue for relief from the poor battery 
design.  On the plus side, this group of converters has greatly 
benefited from the cheap used battery supply due to the low value of 
used Leafs.


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Re: [EVDL] leaf heater switch

[jamie via EV]

OK, I'll take your word for it that timed charging isn't a good solution 
for you Peri. But perhaps the suggestion could be helpful for the OP, 
who BTW seemed more concerned with timed preconditioning.


Using timers via the car itself has not been a problem for us (2013 SV). 
We only set the charge or conditioning timers if we need one or both of 
them, but turn them off after a drive if we don't need them again. We do 
it from the car itself while we're in it, not via an app.


Charging overnight and charging again after a morning drive would not be 
a problem for us, with or without using a timer. And again, no internet 
connection or app required.


BTW there's a switch on the dash that forces the car to to start 
charging immediately even if a timer is set. Perhaps that may help. 
Here's a demonstration:


 www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZF0nKHdOZE

Cheers,
 -Jamie



On 5/18/22 11:00 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
I tried the timed charging a long time ago. Bad idea. If you set it to 
charge overnight, for example, but need to go out in the afternoon after 
a morning drive, you'll be in trouble ! That is, you have to reprogram 
the damned thing each time you want to charge. There's no way (at least 
that I'm aware of) to override. It's plain idiotic.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "jamie via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "jamie" 
Sent: 18-May-22 21:44:53
Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf heater switch



Another option, which has been useful for us, is to use the LEAF's 
built-in separate timed settings for both charging and 
preconditioning. With those settings an internet connection is not 
required.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/18/22 10:31 PM, Otmar Lists Account via EV wrote:

Preconditioning, especially while charging is a fantastic benefit.

Sadly the Nissan Connect for Leaf was on 2G cellular, and there was 
an update to 3G, but now that is going away as well and there seems 
to be no 4G LTE upgrade.


Alternatively, people are using the OVMS to provide those functions 
and more with an app.


https://docs.openvehicles.com/en/latest/components/vehicle_nissanleaf/docs/index.html 
<https://docs.openvehicles.com/en/latest/components/vehicle_nissanleaf/docs/index.html> 



-Otmar

On May 18, 2022, at 7:18 PM, Bill Dube via EV  
wrote:


The Leaf has an app that runs on your cellphone that can allow it to 
pre-heat or pre-cool the car interior while it is plugged in. You 
can also set a time to do this manually from the dash. Makes a HUGE 
difference in range if you can use this feature.


Easier than defeating the heater somehow. You also _really_ need the 
heater and/or air conditioning to defog the windshield. The blower 
alone just doesn't do it.


Bill D.

On 5/19/2022 8:48 AM, redscooter via EV wrote:
  on youtube there some  switch to modify so the heat does  not 
come on just the fan only .

My 2011 needs all the power it can. any exp with this ?
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Re: [EVDL] leaf heater switch

[jamie via EV]

Another option, which has been useful for us, is to use the LEAF's 
built-in separate timed settings for both charging and preconditioning. 
With those settings an internet connection is not required.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/18/22 10:31 PM, Otmar Lists Account via EV wrote:

Preconditioning, especially while charging is a fantastic benefit.

Sadly the Nissan Connect for Leaf was on 2G cellular, and there was an update 
to 3G, but now that is going away as well and there seems to be no 4G LTE 
upgrade.

Alternatively, people are using the OVMS to provide those functions and more 
with an app.

https://docs.openvehicles.com/en/latest/components/vehicle_nissanleaf/docs/index.html 


-Otmar


On May 18, 2022, at 7:18 PM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

The Leaf has an app that runs on your cellphone that can allow it to pre-heat 
or pre-cool the car interior while it is plugged in. You can also set a time to 
do this manually from the dash. Makes a HUGE difference in range if you can use 
this feature.

Easier than defeating the heater somehow. You also _really_ need the heater 
and/or air conditioning to defog the windshield. The blower alone just doesn't 
do it.

Bill D.

On 5/19/2022 8:48 AM, redscooter via EV wrote:

  on youtube there some  switch to modify so the heat does  not come on just 
the fan only .
My 2011 needs all the power it can. any exp with this ?
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[jamie via EV]

For the charger funding issue:
In Europe, Tesla has opened a few charging locations to non-Tesla 
vehicles. If that trend continues and comes to the USA, it could be that 
Tesla might then be eligible for federal infrastructure funding.


Part of the issue is competing standards. It's easier to open up Tesla 
fast chargers to other EVs in countries where Tesla already uses the 
local standard. A bit more problematic in the USA where the Tesla 
connector is proprietary. Tesla's solution seems more elegant than CCS 
but that's unfortunately irrelevant in this context since it's not 
accessible to all EVs.


If Tesla adds CCS connectors or dedicated chargers to their USA 
locations, it could be that they may become eligible for federal funding 
for those chargers.


Going the other way, there have been adapters allowing USA/Korean Tesla 
owners access to other charging networks. But from what I gather the 
Chademo one is expensive, somewhat slow, and hard to get, and the CCS 
(model 3 & Y only) adapter might not be available in the USA yet. 
Correct me if I'm wrong about that. If Tesla can supply a working CCS 
adapter in the USA, that would open up other charging networks to at 
least some Tesla owners.


For the EV tax issue:
Alabama's tax seems high. How would that compare to a non-EV's yearly 
average gas tax there? In Colorado the EV surcharge fee is $50/year. 
Depending on how much you drive, that may also be too high.


I don't think states and feds have figured out the most balanced way to 
tax vehicles overall so that it's fair to all vehicle owners, funds 
driving infrastructure sufficiently, and discourages emissions.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 2/12/22 6:37 AM, paul dove wrote:
They should reimburse Tesla for their charging network if they’re gonna 
put chargers in for all the other companies  by the way I paid $200 a 
year tax on my electric vehicle in Alabama



Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone <https://more.att.com/currently/imap>

On Friday, February 11, 2022, 5:16 PM, jamie via EV  
wrote:



A couple of relevant data points:

-Biden recently publicly credited Tesla as America's leading EV
manufacturer. Yes, it took a while, but that talking point is over.
Meanwhile we'll see if Ford, VW, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan and others
can
catch up, as their new models arrive.

-The government is also making people who do not support fossil fuels
pay for fossil fuel tax breaks and cleanups.

As a wider view, perhaps the thinking is that supporting nation-wide
transportation initiatives offers benefits for overall American
competitiveness, which benefits everyone. Even while recognizing that
each subset in the transportation universe may not currently have
individual support or direct use by every single person.

Cheers,
   -Jamie



On 2/11/22 3:22 PM, Willie via EV wrote:
 >
 > On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:
 >> The only problem that I see with this is that the government is
making
 >> people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging. I say that
we wait
 >> for
 >> mass ev adoption to happen(which will happen very soon). After this,
 >> businesses and apartment building owners will pay for ev charging
 >> stations
 >> out of their own pocket because having ev charging as an amenity
will
 >> attract more customers/tenants. Some hotels are already starting
to do
 >> this.
 >>
 >> A government that is 28 trillion dollars in debt should not be
spending
 >> billions of dollars that it does not hav
 > ABSOLUTELY!  In addition, government contributions are not needed
and
 > any government money would  almost certain to be misspent. Examples
 > abound.  Tesla has the charging problems solved.  Compare
SuperChargers
 > with EVGO and the VW system.  All Tesla needs is a small fraction
of the
 > money that Biden wants to spend.  Tesla knows the charging
problem and
 > how best to solve it.  Instead, Biden wastes his efforts denying the
 > existence of Tesla while proclaiming the EV dominance of GM.  Why
does
 > Biden expect credibility?
 >
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[jamie via EV]

A couple of relevant data points:

-Biden recently publicly credited Tesla as America's leading EV 
manufacturer. Yes, it took a while, but that talking point is over. 
Meanwhile we'll see if Ford, VW, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan and others can 
catch up, as their new models arrive.


-The government is also making people who do not support fossil fuels 
pay for fossil fuel tax breaks and cleanups.


As a wider view, perhaps the thinking is that supporting nation-wide 
transportation initiatives offers benefits for overall American 
competitiveness, which benefits everyone. Even while recognizing that 
each subset in the transportation universe may not currently have 
individual support or direct use by every single person.


Cheers,
 -Jamie



On 2/11/22 3:22 PM, Willie via EV wrote:


On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:

The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging. I say that we wait 
for

mass ev adoption to happen(which will happen very soon). After this,
businesses and apartment building owners will pay for ev charging 
stations

out of their own pocket because having ev charging as an amenity will
attract more customers/tenants. Some hotels are already starting to do 
this.


A government that is 28 trillion dollars in debt should not be spending
billions of dollars that it does not hav
ABSOLUTELY!  In addition, government contributions are not needed and 
any government money would  almost certain to be misspent. Examples 
abound.  Tesla has the charging problems solved.  Compare SuperChargers 
with EVGO and the VW system.  All Tesla needs is a small fraction of the 
money that Biden wants to spend.  Tesla knows the charging problem and 
how best to solve it.  Instead, Biden wastes his efforts denying the 
existence of Tesla while proclaiming the EV dominance of GM.  Why does 
Biden expect credibility?


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Re: [EVDL] Leaf 2013 Ghost Loads on 12V battery

[jamie via EV]

I don't know about ghost loads, but how old is your 12v accessory 
battery? If it's still the original battery it's probably time to 
replace it.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 12/9/21 6:09 AM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

Hi folks
After parking the 2013 Leaf in the garage for 3 weeks, it wouldn’t go when I 
tried to drive it last night, flashed as error Contact the Dealer with a bunch 
of yellow exclamation points.  I remembered from the EVDL to check the 12V 
battery and it was 9V so I charged it up and then all the worthless error 
messages went away and could drive it.  It’s been falling out of favor with my 
son and wife since we’ve been driving the Tesla Y and Bolt more but probably 
need to drive weekly to maintain the 12V battery that seems to be on a shallow 
charge at 13.4V from the dc dc converter. Does anyone know what the ghost name 
load is and how to eliminate it?  Maybe need to keep in a battery tender float 
charger when not driving it. I’ll have to check the ma load tonight after work. 
 I’ll be retiring from GE Renewable Energy at Christmas so have more time to 
fool with this stuff
Have a Renewable Energy Christmas
Mark in Roanoke Va

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] large drone ?

[jamie via EV]

"Falling from the sky when something goes wrong" may be overstating the 
risk of this design.


Considering that it has wings and a pusher motor/prop, and that the 
vertical props appear to stow away during forward flight - if there's a 
problem during flight it looks like it could land like a conventional 
airplane, gliding to the nearest airport or flat area rather than 
falling like a rock. For the majority of its operation it appears to be 
more of an airplane than a helicopter.


If there's a problem during takeoff or landing, when the vertical rotors 
are apparently temporarily used, the area in peril would most likely be 
a landing pad and not someone's home.


Given that it's still under development and not expected to be in use 
for a few years, it will be interesting to see how it progresses as it 
develops into a deliverable, certified commercial aircraft.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 4/8/21 9:12 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

And fall out of the sky when something goes wrong.

On 4/8/2021 10:51 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
I think this is pretty impressive technology. Usually VTOL aircraft 
are heavily compromised - they usually work more like helicopters but 
have poor performance (or very high fuel usage) in other respects. But 
this one can do 150 mph *and* travel 250 miles *and* carry payload.


Peri 

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf range (Tesla-Y constant humming)

[jamie via EV]

Bob, who and where is the tech who can upgrade an older leaf to a 62kWh 
pack?


Thanks,
 -Jamie


On 3/25/21 8:53 AM, Bob Bath via EV wrote:

My 2013 has identical stats at 44k miles, 80% capacity bars.

I’m excited to transport it to a tech 250 miles away who will put a 62 kWh pack 
from a totaled LEAF into mine.

Sincerely,
Bob Bath

Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 55 y.o. 
vision, hyperactive spell check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not 
cluelessness.



On Mar 25, 2021, at 7:50 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

Our 2011 Leaf has about 35-50 mile range, depending on weather. That's pretty 
minimal, I know, but completely adequate for everything in the city and even a 
bit further. Depends where you live. (Still, I want to replace it, but - you've 
seen my other posts - it's not so easy to find something that will replace both 
our cars with one.)

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 25-Mar-21 6:56:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla-Y constant humming when parked in garage, wasting kwh





On 3/25/21 8:37 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:


On 3/25/21 8:16 AM, Willie via EV wrote:

  Your car has a battery that may last 200k miles. Compare that to a Leaf with 
battery life as low as 20k miles.


You are comparing maximum possible life to minimum possible life. Doesn't seem 
very fair to the Leaf.

My Leaf has 6 years and 50k miles on it with 80% of the new range/capacity 
remaining.


My 2011 Leaf became useless to me before 25k miles when it's range was reduced to 
~60 miles.  My 2013 Tesla, at ~150k miles, has about 225 miles left of it's 
original 265.  It is very near as useful as it was new.  It can still go 
essentially anywhere in the country following a chain of SuperChargers spaced at 
<150 miles.  I believe 3/Ys have longer lived batteries than early Ss.  We 
won't know for sure for a few years, but I think 200k miles is a very reasonable 
expectation.

Congratulations on your very good Leaf battery luck!  Though I'm not sure how 
useful 80% of a small Leaf battery is.




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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Your mail may arrive by EV - or it may not

[jamie via EV]

Good points about the importance of political/emotional as well as 
technical reasons. In fact the world is constantly changing and things 
can become emotionally cool and politically popular over time.


Technology improves. Clunky satellite phones that cost way too much and 
didn't work that well have morphed into amazing little internet 
communication and computing devices that most people today take for 
granted and wouldn't be without.


EVs are climbing the adoption curve. EVs have become cool. People who 
buy them tend to say they will never go back. Major automobile companies 
are investing heavily into EVs going forward. Local and national 
governments, and some auto manufacturers, are putting a cutoff deadline 
on building and selling new fossil fuel cars.


Tesla, on stock value, has become worth more than the other major auto 
companies combined, or some such, and their cars out-perform gas cars on 
multiple metrics. They can't make them fast enough to satisfy demand. 
We're a long way past the early EV experiments, lead acid batteries, 
really slow charging, and pain cars.


Amazon, FedEx, etc. are moving into EV delivery trucks. There are spiffy 
EV police cars popping up in local police departments. Turns out there's 
money to be saved, along with the technical advantages.


So things change. For an institution that prides itself on having a 
long-term view, it's past time for the post office to get with the 
program. I'll bet that at this point a lot of post office employees 
would agree - along with the bean counters who can foresee significant 
operational savings which the post office REALLY needs.


IOW, just because something didn't work before, within the context and 
technology of earlier times, doesn't automatically mean it won't/can't 
work now when the context and technology has changed and the momentum 
continues to accelerate.


They used to deliver mail with horses.

Cheers,
 -Jamie

PS. Yes, gas engine mechanics may not be happy, (nor will the oil 
industry lobby). But if it's done right, delivery drivers and mail 
carriers, by and large, will be THRILLED to move beyond their ancient 
rattletraps into modern EVs.



On 2/25/21 12:05 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Steves via EV wrote:

Good article about postal vehicles and why they should be electric.
https://www.greatbusinessschools.org/usps-long-life-vehicle/

Biggest take aways:
  - 96% of them drive less than 40 miles a day.
- current vehicles get 9 MPG
- 83% are urban (think pollution)

Such a perfect fit for an EV


Ah, but those are the technical reasons. What counts are the political 
and emotional reasons.


The USPS has tried EVs quite a few times. They have always "failed"; not 
for technical reasons, but because the management and postal workers 
disliked them, and opposed them in every way possible. In extreme cases, 
the vehicles were even sabatoged to make *sure* they failed.


My dad was a career postal employee. His "inside view" was that the 
postal union hated EVs; they were a disruptive technology that got in 
the way of "how we've always done things". EVs put limits on how and 
where postal workers could drive them. There was extra record-keeping, 
and it was harder to charge them than to put gas in. EVs also threatened 
the postal mechanic's jobs.


Lower-level managers were also opposed. They didn't like to be told from 
"on high" how to do things. The postal bureaucracy is strong and deep, 
and mightily opposed to change. It's going to be mighty hard to overcome 
that prejudice and inertia.


Lee Hart



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Re: [EVDL] Drivability again

[jamie via EV]

Interesting approach, but with several problems:

Words matter. We're not actually discussing "drivability," which implies 
things like handling/steering, acceleration, braking, cornering and 
such, NOT minutes moving forward per minute charged. Saying a car has a 
low "drivability" number will confuse people rather than inform them.


Another problem is calculating such a rating at just one speed. Few 
people do a long road trip at 62mph.


It's also problematic to ignore that charging rates vary based on the 
starting charge level of the battery pack and the level when you stop.


On the consumption side, consumption rates vary while driving. Thus time 
moving forward will vary based on road, terrain, weather and traffic 
conditions.


A single simple number could still be useful given a better descriptive 
term (perhaps "fast-charging efficiency"), with a number based on more 
useful averages.


Comparatively graphing real world charging and average consumption/mile 
rates of various vehicles between, say, 10-80% charge would offer even 
greater insight.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 9/28/20 6:57 AM, Mark Laity-Snyder via EV wrote:

I did include the link but it didn't show up so here is the pasted article.

There are endless factors used to compare electric vehicles (EVs) from various 
manufacturers. There are 0-60 times. All-electric range (AER). Usable 
kilowatt-hour (kWh) in the battery. Luggage space. Number of seatbelts. Charge 
rates for DC fast charging. Efficiency.

But something is missing. Something important. For the lack of a better term, 
I’ll call it “drivability.” Drivability is related to efficiency, but it isn’t 
exactly that. It’s also related to charge rate, but it isn’t exactly that, 
either.

I would define drivability simply as how long I have to charge my car in order 
to get back on the road. In terms of basic arithmetic, it could be defined as 
the ratio of how quickly I can add energy to the car, to how quickly energy is 
used while driving the car.

To make drivability a useful metric to compare EVs, some standardizing 
assumptions are required. So let’s assume that we drive the car for one hour at 
62 miles-per-hour (MPH). How long will it take to replenish the energy used? 
The less time it takes to charge the car to replenish the energy used, the more 
drivable the car becomes.

 From personal experience…

My first EV was a Miata conversion. While I loved driving that car, it had a 
horrible drivability factor. At 62 miles per hour (MPH), the Miata traveled 
approximately 2.2 miles for every kWh consumed. Worse, its maximum charge rate 
was merely 2.5 kilowatts (kW). Expressed mathematically, that is 2.5*2.2 = 5.5, 
which has units of MPH. Taking it a step further, and since the 2.2 mi/kWh 
efficiency assumed 62 MPH, for every hour charging, I could drive for only 
5.5/62 = 0.09 hours! As I’m defining it, my e.Miata had a drivability of 0.09. 
Not good for long trips.

Now I drive a Jaguar I-Pace. Its efficiency isn’t much better at 2.4 mi/kWh at 
a constant 62 MPH, but its maximum charge rate is far superior at 100 kW from a 
capable DC fast charger. Running through the same arithmetic gives a 
driveability factor of 3.8. What this means is that for every hour I charge my 
I-Pace, I can drive for 3.8 hours at 62 MPH. Those with an eye for numbers will 
cry foul about now because most EVs will not sustain the maximum charge rate on 
a DC fast charge for very long. But we’re going to ignore this reality for a 
moment.

Let’s look at one more example. I convinced my younger brother to buy a Tesla 
Model 3, which has an efficiency at 62 MPH of 4.5 mi/kWh, and will charge at 
120 kW. Running through the same arithmetic gives it a driveability of 9. Ergo, 
for every hour of charging one could drive for nine hours, assuming the car’s 
battery and the driver’s bladder have that type of capacity. This can also be 
interpreted to mean that every minute charged enables nine minutes of driving.

The numbers discussed above reflect a maximum drivability using the maximum DC 
fast charging rate for a specific model. Understanding that no EV can sustain 
maximum charge rate when using a DC fast charger, it makes sense to be more 
focused on the average drivability. Over the course of a full charge, the 
I-Pace average charge rate at up to 90% state of charge is about 70 kW. The 
Model 3 is about 100 kW at up to 90% state of charge. This yields an average 
drivability factor of 2.7 for the I-Pace and 7.1 for the Model 3.

So, what should we do with this information?

I am suggesting that manufacturers start using a standardized metric similar to 
drivability, enabling consumers to compare different models among various 
brands. Until that happy day, I’d like to see EV enthusiasts use the 
drivability factor that they’ve calculated themselves while comparing EVs.

How to do this? Simply determine the efficiency of an EV in miles/kWh at 62 
MPH--the results should be between two and five. Most