Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Willie via EV]

On 8/25/21 7:34 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

How much do you pay when you charge away from home?


Here is an account of a recent trip from central Texas to Pike's Peak 
using SuperChargers and one destination charge station.


https://wmckemie.blogspot.com/2021/08/pikes-peak.html

Three nights, four days.  You can count the SuperChargers but 4-5 each way.


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Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Willie via EV]

On 8/25/21 7:34 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

How much do you pay when you charge away from home?


Addressed to me?  I have free lifetime SuperCharging on both my current 
Teslas.  I briefly had a Model 3 which did not have free SuperCharging.  
Average cost was around $5 for around 100 miles.


I have rented two RV stalls in Canada.  One, in Grand Prairie, was a 
very reasonable $10 for 3-5 hours.  The other, I did not get a break on 
the full day rate of $45.



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Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

How much do you pay when you charge away from home?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2021, at 10:09 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 8/25/21 11:10 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
 ...by Electrify America, they said that they charge 31¢/kWh.
>> I have seen rates as low as 3 cents per kW
>> for EV charging off-peak for those  that sign up for a TOU plan
>> (includes much higher peak rates)
>> 
>> "Hydrogen Fool cell" is a reasonable moniker.
>> 
>> Wont this thread ever die?
> 
> ->I<- think it is time for it to die.
> 
> Much discussion back and forth.  Little logic.  Little promise for the 
> future.  Not a single example of FCEV advantage over BEV. I say at risk of 
> appearing to gang up on Mark.  Even though I have resisted giving that 
> appearance.
> 
>> OOps, forgot.  My home solar makes the EV charging free...
>> (Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh
>> because that is what each kW is worth that I push back
>> into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost).
> 
> Your utility seems to be giving you a GREAT deal.  Though it makes your 
> charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal.  I buy at $.10/kwh 
> and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06.  OTOH, my utility is 
> willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to produce.  Even at 
> only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range of 6-8 years.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Bobby Keeland via EV]

My local electric coop (SLEMCO) has quit taking any more customers who have
solar panels and want to have a net meter. We are grandfathered in for 10
years, and then our net meter goes away. SLEMCO did not say what happens to
those who were grandfathered for 10 years. We don’t worry about that
because we plan to be off-grid before then.
Bobby Keeland
Arnaudville, Louisiana

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 4:51 PM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> > While the Volt won't be able to support more than approx 1kw,
> > that's enough to support my critical loads (fridge, freezer, .
> > minisplit heat pump) plus a few lights, etc.
>
> Turns out the DC/DC converter in the VOlt is over 200 amps at
> 12 volts so it can support almost 2 kW.  Compared to the typical
> 100 amps or so from most hybrids.  Though the Volt also draws
> more overhead,  II think 500W.
>
> Bob
>
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 4:53 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV
>  wrote:
> > >> A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll
> be switched to their new
> > >> 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me over $800 a
> year just for the privilege of
> > >> being connected to the grid. iI figure it will be cheaper to buy some
> used EV batteries and
> > >> disconnect, which is what I plan to do.
> > >
> > > Of course I do not fully understand your situation. But it appears you
> > > may have your PV paid for with the years of $.186 valued energy? The
> >
> > My solar array paid for itself years ago, took a little over 5 years to
> break even.
> >
> > > $800/year surcharge overshadow the value of your production in the
> netmetering.
> >
> > Under the new rate schedule, I will have to pay approx $60 a month in
> connection fees and taxes,
> > plus they will no longer do 1:1 > stability of a grid connection is not
> to be taken lightly. Will
> > the
> >
> > Instead, I will have to pay retail for every kwh I pull from the grid
> and they will pay me "export
> > rate" for every kwh I push to the grid, this is on an instantaneous
> basis, not trued up annually.
> > The Export rate is higher than what I get now (~about 5 cents currently)
> and the solar customer
> > retail rate drops to 8 cents per kWh, but that still means I have to pay
> 3 cents per kwh to use the
> > grid as storage.
> >
> > By doing some smart energy management-- only charging the EVs, running
> the dryer, etc. when I have
> > surplus solar -- I could potentially keep the bill down to around $800
> annually.
> > However, I figure it will cost me around $0.50 per day to bank power,
> that plus the connection fees
> > and taxes mean I will probably end up paying over $900 a year.
> >
> > I keep meaning to write a program to use my energy monitoring system to
> calculate my actual costs,
> > just haven't gotten around to it yet.
> >
> > >The stability of a grid connection is not to be taken lightly.
> >
> > I'm already building a second off-grid EV charging station, when I
> disconnect from the grid I will
> > buy a second inverter and set of batteries for my existing array, so I
> will have two totally redundant off-grid power
> > setups.
> >
> > I also have the Volt. The ability to use it as an emergency backup power
> source was one of the
> > reasons I choose it. While the Volt won't be able to support more than
> approx 1kw, that's enough to
> > support my critical loads (fridge, freezer, minisplit heat pump) plus a
> few lights, etc.
> >
> > I'm also planning on buying one of the EV pickups that should be
> available in the next couple
> > years. That will give me a much more capable backup power system
> >
> > With 3-4 independant power systems, grid stability is a non-issue. Not
> that the grid in my area is
> > supper stable. We have had at least 4 minor power outages this summer
> and we typically have a major
> > outage (8+ hours) once every 5 years or so.
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> While the Volt won't be able to support more than approx 1kw,
> that's enough to support my critical loads (fridge, freezer, .
> minisplit heat pump) plus a few lights, etc.

Turns out the DC/DC converter in the VOlt is over 200 amps at
12 volts so it can support almost 2 kW.  Compared to the typical
100 amps or so from most hybrids.  Though the Volt also draws
more overhead,  II think 500W.

Bob

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 4:53 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV
 wrote:
> >> A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll be 
> >> switched to their new
> >> 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me over $800 a year 
> >> just for the privilege of
> >> being connected to the grid. iI figure it will be cheaper to buy some used 
> >> EV batteries and
> >> disconnect, which is what I plan to do.
> >
> > Of course I do not fully understand your situation. But it appears you
> > may have your PV paid for with the years of $.186 valued energy? The
>
> My solar array paid for itself years ago, took a little over 5 years to break 
> even.
>
> > $800/year surcharge overshadow the value of your production in the 
> > netmetering.
>
> Under the new rate schedule, I will have to pay approx $60 a month in 
> connection fees and taxes,
> plus they will no longer do 1:1 > stability of a grid connection is not to be 
> taken lightly. Will
> the
>
> Instead, I will have to pay retail for every kwh I pull from the grid and 
> they will pay me "export
> rate" for every kwh I push to the grid, this is on an instantaneous basis, 
> not trued up annually.
> The Export rate is higher than what I get now (~about 5 cents currently) and 
> the solar customer
> retail rate drops to 8 cents per kWh, but that still means I have to pay 3 
> cents per kwh to use the
> grid as storage.
>
> By doing some smart energy management-- only charging the EVs, running the 
> dryer, etc. when I have
> surplus solar -- I could potentially keep the bill down to around $800 
> annually.
> However, I figure it will cost me around $0.50 per day to bank power, that 
> plus the connection fees
> and taxes mean I will probably end up paying over $900 a year.
>
> I keep meaning to write a program to use my energy monitoring system to 
> calculate my actual costs,
> just haven't gotten around to it yet.
>
> >The stability of a grid connection is not to be taken lightly.
>
> I'm already building a second off-grid EV charging station, when I disconnect 
> from the grid I will
> buy a second inverter and set of batteries for my existing array, so I will 
> have two totally redundant off-grid power
> setups.
>
> I also have the Volt. The ability to use it as an emergency backup power 
> source was one of the
> reasons I choose it. While the Volt won't be able to support more than approx 
> 1kw, that's enough to
> support my critical loads (fridge, freezer, minisplit heat pump) plus a few 
> lights, etc.
>
> I'm also planning on buying one of the EV pickups that should be available in 
> the next couple
> years. That will give me a much more capable backup power system
>
> With 3-4 independant power systems, grid stability is a non-issue. Not that 
> the grid in my area is
> supper stable. We have had at least 4 minor power outages this summer and we 
> typically have a major
> outage (8+ hours) once every 5 years or so.
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Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

>> A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll be 
>> switched to their new
>> 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me over $800 a year just 
>> for the privilege of
>> being connected to the grid. iI figure it will be cheaper to buy some used 
>> EV batteries and
>> disconnect, which is what I plan to do.
> 
> Of course I do not fully understand your situation. But it appears you
> may have your PV paid for with the years of $.186 valued energy? The

My solar array paid for itself years ago, took a little over 5 years to break 
even.

> $800/year surcharge overshadow the value of your production in the 
> netmetering.

Under the new rate schedule, I will have to pay approx $60 a month in 
connection fees and taxes,
plus they will no longer do 1:1 > stability of a grid connection is not to be 
taken lightly. Will
the

Instead, I will have to pay retail for every kwh I pull from the grid and they 
will pay me "export
rate" for every kwh I push to the grid, this is on an instantaneous basis, not 
trued up annually.
The Export rate is higher than what I get now (~about 5 cents currently) and 
the solar customer
retail rate drops to 8 cents per kWh, but that still means I have to pay 3 
cents per kwh to use the
grid as storage.

By doing some smart energy management-- only charging the EVs, running the 
dryer, etc. when I have
surplus solar -- I could potentially keep the bill down to around $800 annually.
However, I figure it will cost me around $0.50 per day to bank power, that plus 
the connection fees
and taxes mean I will probably end up paying over $900 a year.

I keep meaning to write a program to use my energy monitoring system to 
calculate my actual costs,
just haven't gotten around to it yet.

>The stability of a grid connection is not to be taken lightly.  

I'm already building a second off-grid EV charging station, when I disconnect 
from the grid I will
buy a second inverter and set of batteries for my existing array, so I will 
have two totally redundant off-grid power
setups.

I also have the Volt. The ability to use it as an emergency backup power source 
was one of the
reasons I choose it. While the Volt won't be able to support more than approx 
1kw, that's enough to
support my critical loads (fridge, freezer, minisplit heat pump) plus a few 
lights, etc.

I'm also planning on buying one of the EV pickups that should be available in 
the next couple
years. That will give me a much more capable backup power system

With 3-4 independant power systems, grid stability is a non-issue. Not that the 
grid in my area is
supper stable. We have had at least 4 minor power outages this summer and we 
typically have a major
outage (8+ hours) once every 5 years or so.
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Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Jay Summet via EV]

I doubt you'll be able to buy the recalled bolt batteries. Too much 
liability to the sellers if one of them causes a fire.


Jay

On 8/25/21 2:19 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

With the recall of over 100,000 BOLT batteries to be replaced,
There will be a HUGE source.  But I assume that they will
all be bulk sold to utilities who (hopefully) will apply them
to grid-leveling in support of renewables!
Bob

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 1:30 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV
 wrote:



OOps, forgot. My home solar makes the EV charging free...
(Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh
because that is what each kW is worth that I push back
into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost).


Your utility seems to be giving you a GREAT deal.  Though it makes your
charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal.  I buy at
$.10/kwh and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06.  OTOH, my
utility is willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to
produce.  Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range
of 6-8 years.


You both get great deals.  My electric coop only pays their "avoided costs" for 
any surplus electricity (trued up annually), currently that is less than 3 cents per kwh 
(2.6 the last time I checked).
OTOH I'm still collecting on the PBI we agreed to when I first connected.  That 
pays 18.6 cents per kWh produced, regardless of whether I use it or push it to 
the grid.  However, that will run out in less than 2 years.

A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll be 
switched to their new 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me 
over $800 a year just for the privilege of being connected to the grid.  iI 
figure it will be cheaper to buy some used EV batteries and disconnect, which 
is what I plan to do.
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Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Willie via EV]

On 8/25/21 1:30 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:


You both get great deals.  My electric coop only pays their "avoided costs" for 
any surplus electricity (trued up annually), currently that is less than 3 cents per kwh 
(2.6 the last time I checked).
OTOH I'm still collecting on the PBI we agreed to when I first connected.  That 
pays 18.6 cents per kWh produced, regardless of whether I use it or push it to 
the grid.  However, that will run out in less than 2 years.

A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll be 
switched to their new 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me 
over $800 a year just for the privilege of being connected to the grid.  iI 
figure it will be cheaper to buy some used EV batteries and disconnect, which 
is what I plan to do.


Of course I do not fully understand your situation.  But it appears you 
may have your PV paid for with the years of $.186 valued energy?  The 
stability of a grid connection is not to be taken lightly.  Will the 
$800/year surcharge overshadow the value of your production in the 
future?  Can you avoid that surcharge by just disconnecting your PV from 
the grid?  Though you are unlikely to be able to effectively use the PV 
energy if it is not grid tie, you can find other uses for it.  Charging 
cars.  Keeping grid down back up batteries charged.  Heating water 
during the day for night time use.  Cooling down the house while the sun 
shines.  Etc.


When I bought this place, I was not clever enough to shop for a good 
electric utility.  I lucked out.  Were I to move now, I would certainly 
take a very close look at the prospective utilities. Our coop has no 
generation of their own and they pay transmission fees on all out of 
area power that they buy for sale to members. That means they value the 
avoided transmission cost of customer generated power.  Much of our grid 
power is now coming from very cheap west Texas wind and, increasingly, 
west Texas PV.  That is transmitted as far as about 300 miles.  Maybe 
400.  AND the coop seems to be legitimately member owned and operated 
for the benefit of members.   Member/utility relations are not at all 
adversarial.


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Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

With the recall of over 100,000 BOLT batteries to be replaced,
There will be a HUGE source.  But I assume that they will
all be bulk sold to utilities who (hopefully) will apply them
to grid-leveling in support of renewables!
Bob

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 1:30 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV
 wrote:
>
> >> OOps, forgot. My home solar makes the EV charging free...
> >> (Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh
> >> because that is what each kW is worth that I push back
> >> into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost).
> >
> > Your utility seems to be giving you a GREAT deal.  Though it makes your
> > charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal.  I buy at
> > $.10/kwh and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06.  OTOH, my
> > utility is willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to
> > produce.  Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range
> > of 6-8 years.
>
> You both get great deals.  My electric coop only pays their "avoided costs" 
> for any surplus electricity (trued up annually), currently that is less than 
> 3 cents per kwh (2.6 the last time I checked).
> OTOH I'm still collecting on the PBI we agreed to when I first connected.  
> That pays 18.6 cents per kWh produced, regardless of whether I use it or push 
> it to the grid.  However, that will run out in less than 2 years.
>
> A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll be 
> switched to their new 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me 
> over $800 a year just for the privilege of being connected to the grid.  iI 
> figure it will be cheaper to buy some used EV batteries and disconnect, which 
> is what I plan to do.
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

>> OOps, forgot. My home solar makes the EV charging free...
>> (Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh
>> because that is what each kW is worth that I push back
>> into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost).
> 
> Your utility seems to be giving you a GREAT deal.  Though it makes your
> charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal.  I buy at
> $.10/kwh and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06.  OTOH, my
> utility is willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to
> produce.  Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range
> of 6-8 years.

You both get great deals.  My electric coop only pays their "avoided costs" for 
any surplus electricity (trued up annually), currently that is less than 3 
cents per kwh (2.6 the last time I checked).
OTOH I'm still collecting on the PBI we agreed to when I first connected.  That 
pays 18.6 cents per kWh produced, regardless of whether I use it or push it to 
the grid.  However, that will run out in less than 2 years.

A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll be 
switched to their new 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me 
over $800 a year just for the privilege of being connected to the grid.  iI 
figure it will be cheaper to buy some used EV batteries and disconnect, which 
is what I plan to do.
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Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> produce.  Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range
> of 6-8 years.

Sure beats the 100 year payback offered by savings banks at 1% interest.
I never liked the "payback" term for solar.  I say it is from day one when
one stopped consuming fossil fueled utility power.

Bob
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[EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Willie via EV]

On 8/25/21 11:10 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

...by Electrify America, they said that they charge 31¢/kWh.

I have seen rates as low as 3 cents per kW
for EV charging off-peak for those  that sign up for a TOU plan
(includes much higher peak rates)

"Hydrogen Fool cell" is a reasonable moniker.

Wont this thread ever die?


->I<- think it is time for it to die.

Much discussion back and forth.  Little logic.  Little promise for the 
future.  Not a single example of FCEV advantage over BEV. I say at risk 
of appearing to gang up on Mark.  Even though I have resisted giving 
that appearance.



OOps, forgot.  My home solar makes the EV charging free...
(Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh
because that is what each kW is worth that I push back
into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost).


Your utility seems to be giving you a GREAT deal.  Though it makes your 
charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal.  I buy at 
$.10/kwh and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06.  OTOH, my 
utility is willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to 
produce.  Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range 
of 6-8 years.




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